DSLR Video V. Red Scarlet

[dave12781]

I've noticed a lot of people saying they'd use Canon's 5D Mark II over Scarlet... I'm not sure what you guys are smoking, but even with the fixed lens - Scarlet will shoot 3k @ 180fps. Yes, not being able to switch lenses sucks... but there are wide angle adapters and telephoto adapters and macro adapters out there waiting to be purchased.

Long and short of it... Scarlet is a better camera than anything Nikon or Canon could come up with because... RED actually listens to what we want.

Why does RED suck? Because it is hard as hell to get a RED ONE, and I'm sure it will be over a year before any of us can get our hands on a Scarlet.

[Matthew Bennett]

We'll have to wait until end of fiscal 2010 to really know the full implications of your statement.

[f64manray]

I've noticed a lot of people saying they'd use Canon's 5D Mark II over Scarlet... I'm not sure what you guys are smoking, but even with the fixed lens - Scarlet will shoot 3k @ 180fps. Yes, not being able to switch lenses sucks... but there are wide angle adapters and telephoto adapters and macro adapters out there waiting to be purchased.

Long and short of it... Scarlet is a better camera than anything Nikon or Canon could come up with because... RED actually listens to what we want.

Why does RED suck? Because it is hard as hell to get a RED ONE, and I'm sure it will be over a year before any of us can get our hands on a Scarlet.


Canon MKII and Nikon 90 are easily better than a non existent vapor ware camera that some company is talking about. I'll take an actual camera in my hand over talk any day. Not only is the MKII considered better than Scarlett, It's considered better than Red One by some apparently.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/

It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…

Video grabs from the MKII are simply outstanding from what I've seen.

[Luis Caffesse]

A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…[/I]


'in terms of' are the key words there.
It's really a stretch to compare the video functionality of the 5D to the RED One.
It may be better in low light - I suppose that's possible, but you can't possibly extract from that that it is "better than RED One" overall.

[Joseph Stunzi]

I've noticed a lot of people saying they'd use Canon's 5D Mark II over Scarlet... I'm not sure what you guys are smoking, but even with the fixed lens - Scarlet will shoot 3k @ 180fps. Yes, not being able to switch lenses sucks... but there are wide angle adapters and telephoto adapters and macro adapters out there waiting to be purchased.

Long and short of it... Scarlet is a better camera than anything Nikon or Canon could come up with because... RED actually listens to what we want.

Why does RED suck? Because it is hard as hell to get a RED ONE, and I'm sure it will be over a year before any of us can get our hands on a Scarlet.


Dave,
I'd be careful about making such concrete statements when no one besides the people at RED know what is in store for the Scarlet besides preliminary specifications. True, RED rocked the film world. True, RED Scarlet is supposed to have 3k capabilities and a frame rate of up to 180. However, you have to evaluate the purpose of each camera.

With the Canon 5D Mark II or Nikon D90 you get the capability to take stellar photos as well as shoot video. For most people, that's a great feature.

With the Scarlet, you have to deal with the size of a 3K workflow which I'd say most people aren't ready for. You have to deal with the weird ergonomics of the device. You also have to deal with the fixed lens and adapting to that with a 35mm DOFA or another solution.

Nikon and Canon listen to what we want. So does Panasonic.

--

In short, people can touch a Canon 5D Mark II today! They can hold a Nikon D90 and shoot video with it. They can utilize the super35-like DOF that can be attained with the full frame sensor inside the 5D. People can't touch a Scarlet. They can't see the footage or play with the ergonomics. They can't even try out the workflow! So like Matthew said, we're just going to have to wait and see.

[f64manray]

'in terms of' are the key words there.
It's really a stretch to compare the video functionality of the 5D to the RED One.
It may be better in low light - I suppose that's possible, but you can't possibly extract from that that it is "better than RED One" overall.


For me low light performance is critical. The camera that has the best lowlight performance has my purchase. Granted, it will not have all the control of Red. If I have to jump through all the "Kholi" hoops to get the image I want and at the end it beats Red, I'll be happy.

The following quotes from Vincent Laforet that has used the MKII are more than appealing:

This camera is the ultimate “equalizer” - you no longer need half-million dollar’s worth of high definition video cameras and lenses delivered by a truck with its own driver to shoot a high definition film in low light - you just need a $2,700 camera and a few lenses - and talented and dedicated friends that you can call on last minute at the drop of a hat.

The 5D MKII camera produces the best stills in low light that I’ve ever seen - what you can see with you eye in the worst light (such as sodium-vapor street lights at 3 a.m. in Brooklyn) - this camera can capture it with ease.

Photojournalists in particular - will be able to take full advantage of this camera’s strengths - because they are used to walking into any room, and finding the best natural “available light” in the room - or knowing how to add a single light source to make it pop… they are used to working quickly and with small or no budgets… which is something this camera is begging you to do…

This camera allows you to dream BIG… my marketing sentence for it would be “If you can see - we can capture it in 1080p.” Referring to the low light performance - that’s sure what I experience shooting this.

[Thebes]

I am hoping that the scarlet isn't vaporware, and that its not fashioned mostly from unobtanium. I think it would be a great upgrade from my HV20. I would find the 3k size useful to do pans and zooms with in post, and the variable frame rate would rock... I'm sure it would be excellent quality and well worth the price- even adding in a premium to not wait a year.

But it doesn't offer super 35 DOF, and I think a large sensor is a much better way to gain control over DOF than making a miniature view camera with vibrating ground-glass, a special closeup lens, a solution to the flip, and then losing at least 2 stops of light by the time you count all of the extra optics it goes through (2/3+ for dof adapter, 1 1/2 for aquisition cameras f1.8 lens). The D90 has a simplicity and elegance that the Scarlet won't. Plus its a 1st generation product and it seems likely Nikon, Canon and others are going to continue to develop large sensor video capabilities.

[Luis Caffesse]

For me low light performance is critical. The camera that has the best lowlight performance has my purchase.

Fair enough - my point was only to make sure we kept things in context.
Low light performance is one of many factors, that's all I was getting at.

[ando]

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/

It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…

Video grabs from the MKII are simply outstanding from what I've seen.

that's crap
just advertising. he received the camera from canon to make some publicity with it. even the thought that a $2600 camera is better or at least equal to Red or $100k cameras makes him look really stupid from the start.

didn't you see full res video from 5dmk2? you have to resize at least half size to make it sharp. that's nothing like Red.

and those samples are tiny. D90 looks great at that resolution too.
if you downsize to 700 pixels lots of noise is gone already. that's ~30% the original resolution.

sure you can have fun with it. maybe more fun than with the d90.

it may look nice but why bother with 700x395 video for $2600? canon wants everybody to buy just for the video feature. 'cause you see this new 5d has another sensor but the rest 90% is the old 5d. they need you to think lots more has changed. clever marketing.

[ando]

The 5D MKII camera produces the best stills in low light that I’ve ever seen - what you can see with you eye in the worst light (such as sodium-vapor street lights at 3 a.m. in Brooklyn) - this camera can capture it with ease.



i hope he's talking about video frame stills.
if he's talking about photos it's just another almost fanatic statement.

[John Caballero]

The thruth is Scarlet doesn't exist, yet. When we have it in our hands then we can can say how good or bad it is compared to cameras that are out there already. The same goes with the Canon, once you have it in your hands, like the ones who had already, then you are qualified to make a judgement, good or bad. It is the syndrome of "I am such an expert" without really qualifying for the title. Time and time again we see who the big companies consider tops in the field and those are the ones that get a crack at the new equipment first.
The people that bought the D90 and own it know what it is a capable of, now we have to wait until the Canon is out to really make an intelligent judgement.

[ando]

The people that bought the D90 and own it know what it is a capable of, now we have to wait until the Canon is out to really make an intelligent judgement.

take a look at the samples first. then see if it's really better than Red like canon's marketing said.
but it really isn't, by far. it may be better than d90 but at over 2x the price it better be.

[John Caballero]

I've seen samples from the RED that really suck. As I've seen samples from the RED that are great. When as many people that got and tested the D90 to get a more global opinion do the same with the Canon then we will have an accurate idea of what it does and doesn't. Unlike Nikon, Canon has a video reputation to protect. Even if it competes with its own video cameras I am sure they are not going to put out a crappy video feature on a DSLR on pourpose or by mistake. Specially in a technologically advanced camera like this one with a very steep price tag.

[ando]

it's not that advanced
the body, AF and metering are from the 3 year old 5D. the sensor is from 1dsmk3 previous models with some tweaks. 50d's is newer and better if you can imagine that.

this 5d is nothing like the old 5d. that one had some meaning. this one is just let's recycle some parts, put the new digic inside but without CA corrections, stick the mpeg4 30fps codec from a camcorder and call it new. no lenses to support it like with 1ds. a small new deal with zeiss for 2 lenses. if it wasn't for dpreview to make it sound wonderful ...

the zeiss lenses on a900 produce 24mp of really sharp images. that's 24mp put to work not softy images at f/11. i never expected such sharpness on sony.

[lisa hayse]

And there it is.....
Canon's mystery Camera 5D hiding in the shadow of the moon
is just a Very good Still camera with a consumer video feature(which will suck)!

Can someone Please light a fire under Nikon bottom to get some ProVideo Cams out
that are ment for Dvxusers, I mean Filmmakers........

Lisa

[John Caballero]

And there it is.....
Canon's mystery Camera 5D hiding in the shadow of the moon
is just a Very good Still camera with a consumer video feature(which will suck)!



...and make millions of dollars in the process for Canon... What a business model!

[lisa hayse]

No doubt......

[booggerg2]

Other than the 120fps feature. WHY would anyone pay for a scarlet when much much more can be accomplished with a DSLR + exchangeable lenses for just a bit more than what you'd pay for a scarlet? This comment is also under the assumption that by the time the Scarlett comes around, there'd be even BETTER DSLR video solutions than the D90 and 5D2 we have today... Yes.. that is, if the Scarlett ever comes to fruition..

[Daryl Auguste]

Things like resolution, compression, etc are still very important, but I agree that by the time Scarlet rolls around there will most likely be better DSLR video options.

[booggerg2]

Things like resolution, compression, etc are still very important, but I agree that by the time Scarlet rolls around there will most likely be better DSLR video options.

Daryl, a huge short coming is the Scarlet's smallish sensor, even if they're able to figure out how to solve the noise problem.

And forget about better DSLR video options.. what's stopping a camera manufacture from putting a large image sensor into a camcorder body? Can we say HV50 on steroids?

[John Caballero]

And forget about better DSLR video options.. what's stopping a camera manufacture from putting a large image sensor into a camcorder body? Can we say HV50 on steroids?

I am sure thats in the manufacturers agenda. Especially Nikon, since they don't have a video program as of yet.

[Bebel]

A HV50 on steroids? I like that one..

[John Caballero]

In the meantime you can check the HV20 on steroids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Z_KZNVc8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Z_KZNVc8w)

[Bebel]

the beauty about the whole SLR concept are the lenses. its all about the lenses guys! buy them to make a rock solid investment, buy a new DSLR body or camcorder body every couple of years and you're gonna be just okay..

[Bebel]

In the meantime you can check the HV20 on steroids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Z_KZNVc8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Z_KZNVc8w)

hey broer! what a stunner! jim cameron would be keen..

[Krummi]

Are we actually debating weather a DSLR with a nifty, if extremely limited 30p 1080p, video feature is BETTER than the 4K interchangable mount, RAW shooting, infinetly modular RED one?

Please pass the joint around beacause I want some of what you people are smoking. Let's say that the Canons image matched the RED's resolution for resolution (it doesn't). Let's imagine that the image was as editable and correctable as the RAW filed form the RED (it isn't even close). Even if all those things were equal (they aren't) you still would have to contend with recording time limitations, DSLR handling limitations, manual control limitation, accessory limitations, workflow limitations.

Even if all other things were equal, those things would STILL be a dealbreaker from a professionals point of view.

And they aren't equal. Not by a longshot.

And I'll give RED the benefit of the doubt regarding SCARLET.

RED was vaporware for a long time. Until it finally came. It wasn't perfect, but it's much more than many had hopes. I belive SCARLET will be the same.

[roxics]

I'm not going to pretend that any of these cameras are better then the RED ONE as far as image quality. But from my point of view, I can actually afford one of these DSLR's and I can shoot a film with one of them using various lenses, great low light, shallow depth of field and progressive frame rate.
I'll never be able to afford a RED ONE and honestly the scarlet doesn't interest me. 3K footage and it's editing work flow doesn't excite me, small image sensors don't excite me. The only thing that really does is the frame rate, but I'd trade that for interchangeable lenses, 35mm depth of field and a $1000 price any day of the week.

[Krummi]

Now thats a point of view I can agree with.

Take the thing for what it is and use it accordingly. Don't paint your mazda red and call it a ferrari. Thats all Im saying.