5DII DOES 1080P footage!!!!!!

[hungrych]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp

Oops I spelled does wrong I was so exited :D

UPDATE: sample footage http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01

[Jack_Felis]

Ugh. 30fps? Come on, Canon, no 24p option at least?

[Kholi]

No 24P switch? Sigh.

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

Chill people. We now have 3 of the exact same threads on the main page.

[Kholi]

Not exactly the miracle I was hoping for. Seems like Nikon and canon fail to get their acts together.

[booggerg2]

Here are details on the 5D movie functionality.. http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603 MUCH MUCH better than the D90. I'm glad I waited for Canon's response.


Here are sample movies.. http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01



You can do external Mic as well.. and up to 30 minutes of continuous recording..,

[rawfa]

Man, that is very expensive. The links to the movies don't seem to be working for me.
Lets hope Red does a better job at a more afordable price.

[Kholi]

Here are details on the 5D movie functionality.. http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603 MUCH MUCH better than the D90. I'm glad I waited for Canon's response.


Here are sample movies.. http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01



You can do external Mic as well.. and up to 30 minutes of continuous recording..,

Much much more 30p than the D90.

Again, someone drops the ball.

[stoiqa]

Much much more 30p than the D90.

Again, someone drops the ball.

hefty price :-Laugh(DBG):

US: $ 3,499 (kit)

[f64manray]

No 24P switch? Sigh.

Could you educate me on that. Why is 30p a deal breaker as opposed to 24p?

[Kholi]

As easily put as possible:

24p = Movie Cadence
30p = Home Video Cadence

Different strokes for different folks. The majority of these boards are 24p based. Even for Wedding Shoots.

[stoiqa]

Photography is truth. And cinema is truth twenty-four times a second.

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

And sometimes 90 frames per second and a few times it's at 120 frames per second. :happy:

[booggerg2]

Hey saw the canon 5D video samples.. no jello at all unlike the D90... 24fps whatevers.. There's always a chance to redefine what is accepted as cinematic frame rate. A revolutionary gear like the 5D mk2 will push for that change.

[John Caballero]

Millions upon millions of viewers would not be able, or would not care, about the difference between 24 and 30 fps even if you tried to explained it to them. Digital cinema is digital cinema not film. So many people try to hold on to pre concieved notions of what is correct and whats not.

[stoiqa]

let`s see if this thread will go even half, the uber thread D90 :)

out

[ESTEBEVERDE]

"Canon's own testing, the typical maximum clip length possible was about 12 minutes, but this will vary based on scene content." (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603)

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Millions upon millions of viewers would not be able, or would not care, about the difference between 24 and 30 fps even if you tried to explained it to them. Digital cinema is digital cinema not film. So many people try to hold on to pre concieved notions of what is correct and whats not.


A+++++++++++++++++


This is truth.

I think we will see even higher frame rates something closer to 60p before too long.

Of course, the images will have incredible depth of field etc. from superior lenses and sensors.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Could you educate me on that. Why is 30p a deal breaker as opposed to 24p?

Only for the guys who are just one step beyond than the film emulsion purest. :beer:


Time to grow grow grow.


24p was a compromise between the mechanical reality of film capture and projection and acceptable jitter and look.


That was it.

[ando]

hmmm here's where the problem may be:

- the limit is 4gb per movie
- video is mpeg4
- shutter speed will be set automatically

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I'm telling you guys.

Nikon let the D90 fly just as a warm up.

The real camera will be their version of a D3XV.

Full sensor.

Full manual controls.

Full on bad ass.

I would bet it will bring down the house.

Nikon doesn't have a video unit to protect.

They in all likelihood will try and gain market share with a show stopper.

[funkydmunky]

30p is a standard for HD broadcast hdTV. Is the real fight over film distro for the D90? I do not see 24p as being a major concern.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

hmmm here's where the problem may be:

- the limit is 4gb per movie
- video is mpeg4
- shutter speed will be set automatically


"In Canon's own testing, the typical maximum clip length possible was about 12 minutes, but this will vary based on scene content." (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603)

[f64manray]

Thanks for the 24p vs 30p info everybody.

I know I'm liking this part of the 5D:

Sound is recorded either through the camera's built-in microphone or through an external microphone connected to the camera's microphone input terminal. Playback modes are available in the camera, and all Live View AF features can be used in shooting video.

I'm assuming this is a 1/8 jack for audio "in".

[ESTEBEVERDE]

30p is a standard for HD broadcast, and hdTV. Is the real fight over film distro for the D90? I do not see 24p as being a major concern.

The distribution model of today (not even tomorrow anymore) is digital.


Look at the distribution deal announced by everyone today.

Pay once play on many devices.

Shit, Netflix has me hooked.

I watch so many "Play Now" movies that I am happy enough to get satisfied immediately with seeing a film and if I like it getting it on blue ray later.


It won't be long before we have digital direct to device blue ray quality.

[ando]

"In Canon's own testing, the typical maximum clip length possible was about 12 minutes, but this will vary based on scene content." (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603)

they say 30minutes or 4gb

12 minutes of mpeg 4 at 4gb is it ok?
1920 at 30p in 4gb

[utako.o]

Any body know if it will ship before Nov 1st. and i curious to see more samples. it looks like canon hurried to get this camera demonstrable for photokina.. kinda sparse,empty preview section whereas nikon hit the ground running with the press release and massive demos.

i'm deeply jealous of the true 1080 hd 16:9 mode..

[John Caballero]

Even theaters by the thousands are implementing digital projection. Once they all go that way all the film based criterias won't matter anymore. Crisp images, color perfect, 24 FPS or 30 FPS and everything else digital cinema capture based is what will matter.

[Car3o]

24fps will always matter

[ando]

we have to see the rolling on this one
21mp is slow to save from the start (hence the slow fps of all cameras with high mp count). that is the biggest question

i have downloaded the dpreview samples
not sharp to me. but resized to 720p will look much better
all are completely static, no camera move

[Kholi]

Uhm, right. You go shoot a movie in 30p and tell me what your audiences think.

The fact is 30p is no for narrative, most commercial and most music videos.

If you want your stuff to look like handycam footage, that's fine.

98 percent of these boards want 24p.

[Car3o]

Amen Kholi. I had an old AG-EZ 1 that had 30p....It was better than 60i, but doesn't come close to what 24p looks like.

[ryan brown]

Hey saw the canon 5D video samples.. no jello at all unlike the D90...

How do you figure? are there more clips up than the one's in the first post in this thread? Because all of those were either static shots, or they were VERY carefully panned.

This leads me to believe that they're trying to hide the rolling shutter jingle jangle:Drogar-Evil(DBG):

PLEASE prove me wrong with more samples of some handheld footy...

Oh, and the 30p vs 24p argument? Doesn't make a big difference to me. Give me 1080p HD, interchangeable lenses, and a great big sensor, and I'm in. Would I like to shoot in 24? absolutely. Is it a deal breaker? no way.

I'm also in the boat that thinks Nikon is just going to turn around and release another higher end model.

-brown

[ESTEBEVERDE]

they say 30minutes or 4gb

12 minutes of mpeg 4 at 4gb is it ok?
1920 at 30p in 4gb


I'm not sure.

Anyway, the only thing that will matter is what we will get from the production camera anyway.

[Car3o]

I can't get any of the videos to work....dvxuser must've crashed that site too

[ESTEBEVERDE]

24fps will always matter

BWAHAHAhahahaha..... :dankk2:

[Car3o]

ahaha? 24fps will always be the choice when it comes to narrative filmmaking....weddings, docs, commercials, sports who gives...film camera's can be shot at any frame rate they want, but 24fps has been the choice and it won't change. you'd be crazy to think otherwise.

but hell, it's pointless to debate anymore...think what you want and i guess time will tell.

[utako.o]

I can't get any of the videos to work....dvxuser must've crashed that site too

the 228MB video is snore fest...except the drool worth resolution.. it's just a 2 minute static cam shot of cars and motorcycles on the highway..


i just found out. it's only initially shipping by dec 1st, which means january/feb in mass quantity (if you arn't on the pre-order list).

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=346392

[funkydmunky]

24fps will always matter

Yes it will. For silly superficial reasons. Nothing to do with the ability of the Canon to whip the Nikon it anything resembling the video look.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Uhm, right. You go shoot a movie in 30p and tell me what your audiences think.

The fact is 30p is no for narrative, most commercial and most music videos.

If you want your stuff to look like handycam footage, that's fine.

98 percent of these boards want 24p.


Amen Kholi. I had an old AG-EZ 1 that had 30p....It was better than 60i, but doesn't come close to what 24p looks like.

You guys sound like old codgers complaining about Elvis and that "Damned Devil Music Known as Rock and Roll!" :tongue:


I understand that here to for you are in love with the 24p aesthetic as it is known.


But, it will change. All things do.

[Car3o]

yeah and when film camera's are completely dead, then you might have a viable theory

[Steve Castle]

It looks great, but the fact that all the samples were even more carefully shot and static then even the D90s sample movie is worrying. But it looks amazing, hopefully there is a bit more customization available then the D90 that many here have pointed out. These are exciting times.

Here's the Japanese 5DII site (same sample videos and nothing much new):
http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/5dmark2/index.html

[ESTEBEVERDE]

ahaha? 24fps will always be the choice when it comes to narrative filmmaking....weddings, docs, commercials, sports who gives...film camera's can be shot at any frame rate they want, but 24fps has been the choice and it won't change. you'd be crazy to think otherwise.

but hell, it's pointless to debate anymore...think what you want and i guess time will tell.


Love You Car3o!


At some point the aesthetic will change.

By necessity or by a dominant marketing campaign in fight for market share.

Just the way it is.


I am not up for giving a history lesson but do you know what the film aspect ratio has changed over time?

The frame rate will be same same.


Plus, theaters are becoming a thing of the past so it will be the direct to device audience that makes the decisions from here on out.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

yeah and when film camera's are completely dead, then you might have a viable theory


You're so cute.

[Car3o]

riiiiggghhhhttttt

[ecking]

30p is alright but I definitely have a feeling canon gimped it on purpose. Kind of like how the thing only has 9 autofocus points. They really don't want to step on the 1D series toes with this one. I can understand the mark 2 instead of calling a full on new number now.

[murcott]

if this thing thing shoots at 30fps... maybe is it possible to convert the 30p to 24p?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

30p is alright but I definitely have a feeling canon gimped it on purpose. Kind of like how the thing only has 9 autofocus points. They really don't want to step on the 1D series toes with this one. I can understand the mark 2 instead of calling a full on new number now.


Great Point!

It really is Nikon's ball to see what they have the ability and balls to come up with.

[PaulM]

Holy shi*!

This is a dream come true.

I'm watching a 1080p H.264 I downloaded off dpreview and it's stunning!

Go download those things!

The dynamic range is unbelievable. Car headlights aimed straight into the lens are still yellow!

It's 40.66 Mbit/s!

36x24mm! The closest I've come to this is a 1D Mark I, but that's still a 1.3 crop. Mostly I shoot a 20D with the 50mm f/1.4. With a 1.6 crop that 50mm looks more like a telephoto. I want the DoF of a 50mm lens at f/1.4 with the field of view of a 50mm lens, not an 80mm. The 5D Mark II delivers.

Audio input even! And 16-bit uncompressed at that! No manual level control, though. Sort of a hassle, but you could record to a Zoom H4 or a Tascam HD-P2 and run a line out from that into the Canon to help sync sound in post.

I couldn't be more excited about this thing.

[funkydmunky]

30p is alright but I definitely have a feeling canon gimped it on purpose. Kind of like how the thing only has 9 autofocus points. They really don't want to step on the 1D series toes with this one. I can understand the mark 2 instead of calling a full on new number now.

Everything is gimped on purpose. It is how market segments are defined. Look for a "mark 2" at twice the price.

[Kholi]

You're crazy if you think 30p will be used for anything more than stylized narrative. AKA Home-Video look-a-like movies.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

You're crazy if you think 30p will be used for anything more than stylized narrative. AKA Home-Video look-a-like movies.

Love You!

[John Caballero]

And Wikipedia says:






30p, or 30-frame progressive, is a noninterlaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced) format and produces video at 30 frames per second. Progressive (noninterlaced) scanning mimics a film camera's frame-by-frame image capture and gives clarity for high speed subjects and a cinematic-like appearance. Shooting in 30p mode offers video with no interlace artifacts. The widescreen film process Todd-AO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd-AO) used this frame rate in 1954–1956. For video, this frame rate originated in the 1980s in the music video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video) industry.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]


The 24p frame rate is also a noninterlaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced) format, and is now widely adopted by those planning on transferring a video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video) signal to film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film). But film- and video-makers turn to 24p for the "cine"-look even if their productions are not going to be transferred to film, simply because of the "look" of the frame rate. When transferred to NTSC television, the rate is effectively slowed to 23.976 fps, and when transferred to PAL or SECAM it is sped up to 25 fps. 35 mm movie cameras use a standard exposure rate of 24 frames per second, though many cameras offer rates of 23.976 fps for NTSC television and 25 fps for PAL/SECAM. The frame rate became the de facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto) standard for sound motion pictures in the mid-1920s.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate#cite_note-0)


BTW: The movie samples from Canon look pretty nice.

[PaulM]

You're crazy if you think 30p will be used for anything more than stylized narrative. AKA Home-Video look-a-like movies.

No Sir, you're crazy if you think 30p is gonna stop me from making a poo pooing masterpiece with this motherpoo pooer.

I could give a poo poo about 24p. Bresson, Ozu, Dreyer, they wouldn't have given a poo poo either!

[Solomon Chase]

I need 24p :(

[John Caballero]

Check the Todd-AO link in the wikipedia quote I posted earlier. It is very interesting regarding 30 fps and cinema.

It says:


The original version of the Todd-AO process used a frame rate of 30 per second, slightly faster than the 24 frames per second that was (and is) the standard. The difference does not seem great, but the sensitivity of the human eye to flickering declines steeply with frame rate and the small adjustment gave the film noticeably less flicker, and made it steadier and smoother than standard processes. Only the first two Todd-AO films, Oklahoma! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma!_(1955_film)) and Around the World in Eighty Days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_World_in_Eighty_Days_(1956_movie)), employed 30 frame/s photography.

[Car3o]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pWnYz5fomk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVuHlLBlfA

no thanks.

[Kholi]

No Sir, you're crazy if you think 30p is gonna stop me from making a poo pooing masterpiece with this motherpoo pooer.

I could give a poo poo about 24p. Bresson, Ozu, Dreyer, they wouldn't have given a poo poo either!

I'm not saying you can't make a good video-looking masterpiece. Go check that Indiana Jones fan film. It's 30p...

Just be prepared to answer questions. Namely this one: why does it look like a soap opera, though?

[John Caballero]

60i used for soap operas and 30p are two different animals.

[Kholi]

hefty price :-Laugh(DBG):

US: $ 3,499 (kit)


I can deal with the price. Even though it also doesn't have any manual controls, apparently. PFFT.

But, no 24p? To each his or her own.

[booggerg2]

Sample videos from the 5DMK2.. They look stellar! Very robust motion.. unlike the D90's Jello look for everything that is not locked down..

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp#images

[Car3o]

60i is practically 30p

[John Caballero]

So for argument sake, if you shoot film stock at 30 fps and transfer it to video, did you shoot that film on video or in film?

[ando]

Sample videos from the 5DMK2.. They look stellar! Very robust motion.. unlike the D90's Jello look for everything that is not locked down..

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp#images

stellar my a**
the camera doesn't move and they don't look like 1080p at all. you have to resize to 720p just like you have to resize to standard with d90 to make it sharp

doesn't look like binning. Red is way way ahead on this 1080p

[PaulM]

I'm not saying you can't make a good video-looking masterpiece. Go check that Indiana Jones fan film. It's 30p...

Just be prepared to answer questions. Namely this one: why does it look like a soap opera, though?

You know what? I'm glad this fucker shoots 30p rather than 24p.

I want to have as little in common as possible with the type of filmmaker that would give a shit about that shit.

[booggerg2]

stellar my a**
the camera doesn't move and they don't look like 1080p at all. you have to resize to 720p just like you have to resize to standard with d90 to make it sharp

Relative to a D90 the 5D's video looks amazing. That same clip shot with the D90 would wobble/jello/skew like a mofo... Look at the Camry's round fog lights, they stay round even when the car pans to the edge of the frame.

[John Caballero]

The stuff from Canon looks pretty amazing indeed and I am not even going to buy the camera. Can't compare to the D90 early samples. And I am sure it won't compare to the stuff I or most other owners have shot with the D90, which as a video camera quite does not cut it.

[Kholi]

So for argument sake, if you shoot film stock at 30 fps and transfer it to video, did you shoot that film on video or in film?

Uh, what kinda argument is that? ANd, what does it have to do with 30p being extra video and 24p having film-like cadence/qualities?

There is no way around it save for, if it exists, ripping out the extra information and conforming the footage to 24p: it will look like video and it will be recognized as video. Yes, there will be a place for some 30p...

Vacation Videos
Some Industrials
Kids Recital
Some Small Cable Network Commercials
Some PSAs
Some Movies that need the home video look to a certain extent

Shoot your heart out, man. The Camera is great and the footage "looks" good so far. Just too bad Canon is pulling a fast one and shoving 30pee down people's throat.

[Kholi]

You know what? I'm glad this poo pooer shoots 30p rather than 24p.

I want to have as little in common as possible with the type of filmmaker that would give a shi* about that shi*.

Oh, you mean the majority of filmmakers, including the ones you want to be like.

yeah, that made a lot of sense.

[booggerg2]

Red has also been used to shoot PSAs and Small time local commercials..

I've seen enough crappy indie shorts shot in 24P to not give it a damn whether or not it's 30P or 24P...


Uh, what kinda argument is that? ANd, what does it have to do with 30p being extra video and 24p having film-like cadence/qualities?

There is no way around it save for, if it exists, ripping out the extra information and conforming the footage to 24p: it will look like video and it will be recognized as video. Yes, there will be a place for some 30p...

Vacation Videos
Some Industrials
Kids Recital
Some Small Cable Network Commercials
Some PSAs
Some Movies that need the home video look to a certain extent

Shoot your heart out, man. The Camera is great and the footage "looks" good so far. Just too bad Canon is pulling a fast one and shoving 30pee down people's throat.

[Thebes]

I'd really prefer 24p, not only for the aesthetic, but also for a slight bandwidth reduction (other factors being equal) in my final delivery, which is for the web- actually I'm seeing a lot of 720p24 as a final delivery on the web...

Auto-shutter... it doesn't mention if ISO can be manually set, but if you can set the aperture and can't set the shutter then it seems unlikely you can set the third part of the equation.

I would still need to do all sound off camera, the sound in is auto-levels only and that won't work for me.

I'm liking control of the D90's iris on the fly. Right now I only have one declicked manual lens, but I have another lens on the way thats cheap enough I have no fear or hacking it to my heart's delight. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the 5D can't take manual focus lenses with aperture rings, can it? I suppose one could put on Nikon glass with an adapter...

Does anyone want the contrast based autofocus while shooting? I would find it pretty worthless, but maybe they have a new killer way of doing it.

One unexpectedly nice thing is that it can supposedly take still images at any time while shooting. I would find that very useful, presuming they were high-res.

I hope that this will push Nikon into issuing a firmware upgrade, or at least a significantly better D-Movie mode on the D400, D700s, or whatever.

[PaulM]

stellar my a**
the camera doesn't move and they don't look like 1080p at all. you have to resize to 720p just like you have to resize to standard with d90 to make it sharp

doesn't look like binning. Red is way way ahead on this 1080p

I can't believe you're the one calling that guy a troll!

The clips look fan*fucking*tastic to me.

[Kholi]

Red has also been used to shoot PSAs and Small time local commercials..

I've seen enough crappy indie shorts shot in 24P to not give it a damn whether or not it's 30P or 24P...

Sorry, please note "SOME". And that's FINE if you dont' care about it. Shoot your brain to a muddy mess! That's the ticket.

My opinion still stands: If the camera does not have a 24p Option it's sad.

[John Caballero]

Again from Wikipedia in case anybody missed it on the Todd-AO process:


The original version of the Todd-AO process used a frame rate of 30 per second, slightly faster than the 24 frames per second that was (and is) the standard. The difference does not seem great, but the sensitivity of the human eye to flickering declines steeply with frame rate and the small adjustment gave the film noticeably less flicker, and made it steadier and smoother than standard processes. Only the first two Todd-AO films, Oklahoma! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma!_(1955_film)) and Around the World in Eighty Days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_World_in_Eighty_Days_(1956_movie)), employed 30 frame/s photography.

Just as I thought : difference does not seem great (highlited by me). The footage is just smoother.

24 FPS is just the standard, it doesn't make it better.

[Kholi]

This isn't the 1950's...

[booggerg2]

stellar my a**
the camera doesn't move and they don't look like 1080p at all. you have to resize to 720p just like you have to resize to standard with d90 to make it sharp

doesn't look like binning. Red is way way ahead on this 1080p

Again, remind me why are you or anyone else comparing the video mode of a sub-$3K DSLR to Red One? LOL

I also saw Jim's post on the Red forum as a response to the 5D's announcement.. My question is why should a specialized cinema camera manufacture feel threatened enough by the "video mode" of a sub $3K DSLR to see a need to address it?

Why should fans of RED see a need to point out that RED is a superior device when it comes to 1080P video capture? LOL

Should Canon take these feedbacks as forms of compliment?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

So for argument sake, if you shoot film stock at 30 fps and transfer it to video, did you shoot that film on video or in film?

Everyone would know it was film.

It's silly to think that frame rate is the end all and be all of the overall aesthetic.

[John Caballero]

This isn't the 1950's...

Thanks God! That was a horrendous time in USA history. We are in the Digital Age and we have so many choices at our disposal.

[PaulM]

Again, remind me why are you or anyone else comparing the video mode of a sub-$3K DSLR to Red One? LOL

I also saw Jim's post on the Red forum as a response to the 5D's announcement.. My question is why should a specialized cinema camera manufacture feel threatened enough by the "video mode" of a sub $3K DSLR to see a need to address it?

Why should fans of RED see a need to point out that RED is a superior device when it comes to 1080P video capture? LOL

Should Canon take these feedbacks as forms of compliment?

Hell yeah!

[Kholi]

Everyone would know it was film.

It's silly to think that frame rate is the end all and be all of the overall aesthetic.

Yeah! I know! I can't believe people have spent thousands of man hours trying to create it because professionals wanted a frame rate so that their digital images would look that much more closer to what an audience is used to.

And, what generally works better for narrative content.

What is WRONG with this planet!?

I'm out.

[ando]

Again, remind me why are you or anyone else comparing the video mode of a sub-$3K DSLR to Red One? LOL

I also saw Jim's post on the Red forum as a response to the 5D's announcement.. My question is why should a specialized cinema camera manufacture feel threatened enough by the "video mode" of a sub $3K DSLR to see a need to address it?


'because Red people don't have even 1% on canon or nikon's money. if they are interested in 35mm video is bad news for them.
how many cameras they make a month? is it 20-30k? guess not

if this is happening in 2008, by 2010-11 Red will have a hard time selling 10 a year.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yeah! I know! I can't believe people have spent thousands of man hours trying to create it because professionals wanted a frame rate so that their digital images would look that much more closer to what an audience is used to.

And, what generally works better for narrative content.

What is WRONG with this planet!?

I'm out.


It's just an aesthetic people have been trained to associate with film.

It will evolve just like the aspect ratios have.

Just like silent to talkies to stereo to surround....


Love you all the same.


Muah!

And have a good sleep! :beer:

[Kholi]

Uhm, and where are the clips of the camera actually moving?

[rawfa]

I'm pretty neutral regarding the whole brand competition, but I gotta say that I'm still not convinced by these new cameras by Nikon and Canon. Now Red is a company that has emerged with a very clear aim and public...professional film equipment. They are taking technology that was used on their digital film projects and putting it on a photo camera, NOT the other way around, like Canon and Nikon. This is a good thing for film people. Nikon and Canon came up with cameras that are for photographers and as a BIG bonus added the ability of shooting hd video. This is very different from what Red is doing. So, forgive me if I just buy a micro four thirds or a canon g10 while I wait for what Red has to offer.

[John Caballero]

RED says that they are pretty much eliminating the rolling shutter problems with their Monstro sensor. So that means they are going to put their latest most innovative sensor, (in a smaller size I suppose), the one they are going to use for Epic, selling for $45,000.00, on a DSLR? In order for them to be better than Nikon and Canon they have to produce at least a 2K image, recorded to RED Raw, with no rolling shutter problems at a very affordable price. Wow thats a mighty task to fulfill.

[Kholi]

And, on another note: If the HDMI output is better than the D90's then you MIGHT be able to get 24p out of it with a NanoFlash or something similar. So, that's a thought.

But more money.

[John Caballero]

Oh, oh Kholi! I am picturing you getting a few of grand from under your mattress....

[BLUESPIDER]

I'm telling you guys.

Nikon doesn't have a video unit to protect.



Very True.

Wouldn't make any sense for Cannon to make their DSLR better than their HD cameras.

[el presidente]

Morning all...from the uk. the cat has been officially thrown in with the pigeons then!
I wonder whether there will be a PAL version? 25p

[John Caballero]

The specs say that the camera is switchable NTSC and PAL. I wonder how that works out.

[SPZ]

I'm excited, not because of this Still picture cam, but what the XL-H2 will be. The pandora's box has been opened. Full Frame Interchangeable lenses at "Consumer"prices has been achieved...

RED Scarlet, the Next Canon XL H2, and EVEn Sony, creators of the full frame Alpha 900, might respond with full frame affordable video cameras.

Canon doesn't have Professional Video camera Market to defend per se, like Sony, for example (the XL and the A1 are their higher end models, which are peanuts in sale numbers compared to their consumer divisions)... They do have a substantial investment on the HD 2/3 lens market
though.

Wild speculation: a 2/3 CCD XL H2s recording to AVCHD high bit rate (not my favourite option, but following current trends, quite possible). HD-SDI OUT

a Canon XH-H2 with 35mm interchangeable lens (Canon mount- still lenses). No support for Motion Picture lenses, tough. Also recording to AVCHD. HD-SDI OUT.

Or, maybe, a Canon XH-h2 2/3 CCD's Camera with Still lenses support (not unlike the announced EX1 mount option for Alpha lenses) , as well as the 2/3 Lenses support (coming with a cheapo CAC bundled with the body). Not the best option, but seems the most likely...

I sincerely can't see where Panasonic can go, tough. Their biggest strengh, IMO, is on their AVCINTRA codec. Their CMOS technology is underdeveloped (which can be seen on their still cameras), so either they up the game on the low end CCD camera, or it seems this new generation is going to be a very, very hard battle for Panasonic....

[el presidente]

Excuse me for my ignorance but if it films 25p I have a setting in aspect hd from cineform to slow 25p to 24p.

Edit- I think it does it by simply playing the frames very slightly slower ie no weird pulldown stuff then timestretching audio.

[Chris_TC]

It doesn't say 25p anywhere though. And 30p is just yuck :(

[bearing]

We're not certain about what the range of exposure controls on the 5D Mark II in video mode will be, though a few things are clear: shutter speed will be set automatically (between 1/30 and 1/125), any lens aperture can be selected, brightness can be locked prior to the commencement of video capture, or brightness can be controlled automatically by the camera. What facility there will be for adjusting exposure during recording, if any, we don't know. Nor have we been able to find out whether Canon has implemented the camera's automatic brightness control in a way that avoids the flickering brightness effect that shows up in some Nikon D90 video clips (and which disappears completely with that camera by locking the exposure).

Can exposure be locked?

[dvpixl]

I laugh at the people that think higher frame rates mean better. This is ridiculous.

those who think 24p is some sort of old timer thing... please. It's the latest thing. Its why Nikon even bothered to put it in at all- to stand out from the rest of the consummies. otherwise, why the heck would you want regular video with 35mm DOF?

sure things will change and digital possibilities are endless. That's why every camcorder out in the market has 24p. That's why when canon and Panasonic first realized their FRAME MODE sorta looked like film, they knew they were onto something. That's why animations choose to present their films in 24fps when they clearly are not bound by framerates- esp when it comes to DVD.

I sure as hell would not watch any narrative shot on 60p and expect it to entertain me anymore than 'Days of Our Lives' would.

And yes, Canon does have a market to protect. If you think 30p is great, fine. Like Kholi said, just be ready to answer some questions.So go make a difference with your 30P.

[el presidente]

My strategy is going to be,
buy the nikon d90 friday.woohoo!
use the nikon with my ex1 to film for now in 720p to use for web n dvd(offering many flexible options for the community/corporate films i make for a living)
...wait till the dust settles on the bombshell/seismic shift we are experiencing.
Then draw up a new strategy.
cos theres probably some crazy stuff gonna appear over the next year!

[Toenis]

I laugh at the people that think higher frame rates mean better. This is ridiculous.

those who think 24p is some sort of old timer thing... please.

I'm kind of dazzled that there are so many defensive arguments to the 24fps that was/is used only because it is the least shit*y framerate that was usable motion wise. It was and is purely economic decision not to use higher default framerates. Sure we were rised on the 24fps and got used to it...
Sure for the past century every film maker and cinema visitor has been accustomed to the framerate too and sure there are hundreds of thousands 24fps projection and acquiring systems etc but it will change slowly now where there are other more cheaper and most importantly economic ways of making digital movies. We can not stand against pure market economy may we love the flickery picture or not.

Nikon D90 just didn't have the power to squeeze out more frames of that slow image pipeline that is causing the rolling shutter.
We'll see if 5D MKII will do better as it requires enourmous speed to read the sensor quickly enough to achieve minimal rolling shutter artifacts.

Sure I'd like to see at least 25fps for European electricity flicker as every light ballast out here has flicker when used with anything other than 1/25 invreasements of shutter speed or framerate. Not so bad with 24fps but with 30 it will be evident.

T

[evilfoxhound]

30fps here in PAL land is pretty useless. It's made the camera completely redundant for anything here :(

I'm waiting for Sony's first video DSLR. With all their work on HD Pro-cameras (See Star Wars II and III) I expect that they will be the first to get it right, fingers crossed.

[Madmanden]

Lol at this thread.

The Canon footage looks great. Only two deal killers for me:

1) Price. I'm not paying more than $2,500 for a DSLR.
2) 30P. I want to shoot narratives, not soccer games.

And those who try to defend 30P - you're just trying to justify the 5D video mode because otherwise it looks so good. But why do you think the original DVX100 was so popular? That's right, it could shoot 24P. There's a reason that 24P is a feature on camcorders, not a con. You think RED One owners shoot their movies in 60P just because they can? Hell no, because it looks cheap. 24P is called "film look". 30P is called "home video look".

I'll be first in line when Canon makes a $1,000 DSLR with 24P. And it wouldn't hurt to include some manual control too.

EDIT: I don't want to imply that I don't like the camera. It looks fantastic, beforementioned issues aside. I especially like the 1080P resolution and the fact that it uses nice bit rate H.264 codec instead of the older, much less efficient MJPEG. And the external mic option is cool too, even though I'd have liked some manual control over that as well.

I've heard some rumors about nasty skew though, but I'd rather wait to see handheld samples to judge that one myself.

[Simon Höfer]

Maybe I should go to the Photokina to check this out :D

[rawfa]

Yes you should, man! I would love to be able to go.

[stoiqa]

Obviously this is a response to D90.Then ....why remove the 24p feature.

Only for the "strategic market factor ", I will not consider it.

[Chance White]

No 24p. Move along.

[wjm]

From a technical standpoint, how hard would it be for a firmware update to include a slower 24FPS mode? It seems to me this cam has the brains to record FEWER frames per second, right? (The frame rate isn't locked into the sensor tech itself?) And it's not like we're asking it to do MORE than it's specced to do.

And perhaps a reduction to 24FPS would offer the possibility of minimizing the jello-vision even further - although we haven't yet seen example of that effect yet, so who knows?

And for all you 30P defenders, kindly ST(Fudge)U. We want choice, Canon!

24P rules, and also 30P on a 23.98 timeline gives the option for slight (20%) slo-mo effects. Why not ask for ALL frame rates of which the sensor is capable?

Carry on.

[Lee Wilson]

Yeeeeessss !!!

Glad I held off on the D90 !! :)

[f64manray]

I sure as hell would not watch any narrative shot on 60p and expect it to entertain me anymore than 'Days of Our Lives' would.



Okay, this is kind of a silly statement don't ya think? I don't watch "Days of Our Lives" because of so many things other than frame rate. Oh let me see, there's the horrific writing, bad directing, sub par acting, mediocre lighting and the audience it caters too. The least of which is frame rate.

I'm thinking if all things being equal but 'Apocalypse Now', 'American Beauty', 'Good Fellas' and tons of other classics were shot in 30p, I would still be blown away by the DP work, script, acting, and directing.

Are you saying you couldn't watch 'Good Fellas' if it was shot in 30p? Really? I think you would get over that hurdle in the first five minutes of that movie.

I watch great movies for the content, not the flicker.

I'm not saying I disagree. I guess I would prefer 24p given the option, but it's just one factor of many to consider. For instance, it doesn't seem to me that the DVX has as good of color rendition, saturation or contrast as the D90. A great photo is a great photo, it doesn't stop being a great photo once it starts moving at 30p, right? Wouldn't you rather watch a Scorsese, Coppola, or Kubrick film at 30p over a Alan Smithee film at 24p or is it the frame rate that instills the greatness in a film. If so, that's a pretty magical specification, and I must absolutely have it on my video camera.

[j]

Chdk?

[f64manray]

Yeeeeessss !!!

Glad I held off on the D90 !! :)

Yes, Lee, but it has the sucky 30p. What's your view on that?

[joe 1008]

Just checked the german press release. It says: "framerates UP to 30P"!!! I'm quite sure that the camera will have at least 25P. Nobody in Europe would never ever buy a video camera that only shoots 30P, it would be TOTALLY USELESS FOR SERIOUS SHOOTING. But 24P and 25P would be allright for many things.

So, very confident 24P or 25P will be a feature!

[Chris_TC]

Wouldn't you rather watch a Scorsese, Coppola, or Kubrick film at 30p over a Alan Smithee film at 24p or is it the frame rate that instills the greatness in a film. If so, that's a pretty magical specification, and I must absolutely have it on my video camera.
You missed the point entirely. Shooting at 24fps will yield a look (from a purely technical point of view, disregarding lighting etc.) that reminds you of Scorsese, not soap opera, so that's the first step. Getting everything else right is a completely separate discussion.

If you want the style of your painting to resemble your favorite oil painters, you don't begin working the canvas with a spray can and call it evolution.

[wjm]

It says: "framerates UP to 30P"!!!

Well THERE you GO! So let's all hug and say we're sorry.

Now, let's see some handheld footage!

[Chris_TC]

Just checked the german press release. It says: "framerates UP to 30P"!!!
This would be excellent news, but it remains to be seen. DPReview writes:
"You can define the size (1920 x 1080 or VGA) however other settings (such as frame rate; 30 fps and compression level) are fixed."

[Matthew Bennett]

The great thing is that the bitrate actually appears to be FIXED!, Not a bottom dropper like the d90.
Sweet.

Hopefully some Photokina folks will shoot a pan, report on actual control levels, etc..

[ryan brown]

Really? Not even 24 hours and 8 page's of 30fps vs. 24fps arguments?

OK, we get it! it's an issue for some people, and not others. Anyone that steps into this thread will see that, so lets try and focus on other things now. This thread has already taken a redundant path.

Let's PLEASE try and keep this thread more organized than the D90 one.

[f64manray]

I just talked to Canon tech support. He says it is only 30p. Take it for what it's worth. He doesn't know if it is fully manual in video mode. The audio "in" mini jack is stereo.

[Muhammad]

Let the games begin!

It's clear that both P&S (PowerShot SX1 IS) and DSLR cameras have arrived as major players in the consumer, prosumer and professional video markets (which IMO will spell doom for the likes of handheld consumer camcorders in the next 18-24 months).

I think the reactions to the 5D Mk II shows that buyers will demand ultimate performance as both a still and video camera in one package.

The 5D Mk II will be positioned in a tough place as several professional camera options (including Red 3k) will be tough to compete with if your primary focus is video.

[ando]

according to rob galbraith it isn't fully manual. we already knew that.
check the links posted before

- typical maximum clip length possible - 12 minutes
- video format is MPEG4
- no controls for setting frame rate or compression level.
- Sound is captured either by a built-in mono mic or by an external mic connected to a 3.5mm stereo mic jack
- Mic levels are adjusted automatically, with no manual override
- We're not certain about what the range of exposure controls on the 5D Mark II in video mode will be, though a few things are clear: shutter speed will be set automatically (between 1/30 and 1/125), any lens aperture can be selected, brightness can be locked prior to the commencement of video capture, or brightness can be controlled automatically by the camera. What facility there will be for adjusting exposure during recording, if any, we don't know.

[John Caballero]

Originally posted by Elton

Here's a piece from a doc I've been working on that was shot HVX 720/30p with a Brevis plus Nikon/Canon glass.

http://vimeo.com/1647785 (http://vimeo.com/1647785)


WOW! That is exactly what I mean, will the average viewer know, or care, that you shot this on 30P instead of 24P? A six FPS difference of the same images? Absolutely not. It is a powerful story beautifully shot. Keep up the good work.

[The Sarlacc]

haha, wow.

No 24p, 30p sucks.

Lets hope red does a better job

Why cant canon and nikon get their act together


These are some amazing statements I'm reading right now. THESE ARE DSLR STILL CAMERAS. These are not video cameras, and I highly doubt that either manufacturer is intending any of you to go shoot your next "masterpiece" on one.

Far as I'm concerned its a feature that shouldn't have been added to the DSLR line.

[ando]

Originally posted by Elton


WOW! That is exactly what I mean, will the average viewer know, or care, that you shot this on 30P instead of 24P? A six FPS difference of the same images? Absolutely not. It is a powerful story beautifully shot. Keep up the good work.

it looks like TV, not at all like film. sorry to say that. 30p is 30p
movement and colors both.

[joe 1008]

I just talked to Canon tech support. He says it is only 30p. Take it for what it's worth. He doesn't know if it is fully manual in video mode. The audio "in" mini jack is stereo.

Hope that's not true for Europe. 30p here is quite useless, 25p would do the deal. If I would live in NTSC land, though, I would consider the Canon even with 30p. I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU, BOYS!

[tiborr]

YEP, 30P sucks. And what about slow motion ? why didn't they put a 60 FPS option at least ?...
my 16mm canon scoopic does it...

[Madmanden]

Far as I'm concerned its a feature that shouldn't have been added to the DSLR line.
Why not? Does it make it an inferior still camera? No. It's basically a feature that's added for FREE. So why complain it's there?

And why should someone shoot their 'masterpiece' on a DSLR? Well... dynamic range, big sensor, shallow depth of field, interchangeable lenses and so on. That's why.

[John Caballero]

it looks like TV, not at all like film. sorry to say that. 30p is 30p
movement and colors both.

What do you mean? Soap operas by example are shot on 60i a totally different format than 30P. 30P is closer to 24P than it is to 60i by nature. That is a fact.

And once again from wikipedia:


The original version of the Todd-AO process used a frame rate of 30 per second, slightly faster than the 24 frames per second that was (and is) the standard. The difference does not seem great, but the sensitivity of the human eye to flickering declines steeply with frame rate and the small adjustment gave the film noticeably less flicker, and made it steadier and smoother than standard processes. Only the first two Todd-AO films, Oklahoma! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma!_(1955_film)) and Around the World in Eighty Days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_World_in_Eighty_Days_(1956_movie)), employed 30 frame/s photography.

[Kegan]

In a way, its almost like a camcorder with a photo option. There's limitations and even though I had the option, I rarely used it when I had smaller camcorders. If I pick up a 5DII, its for the stills - not the video.

-Kegan

[wjm]

It's convergence, baby! Just choose your form factor!

Within a couple of years, my daughter's purple Hello Kitty SparklePhone™ will outperform today's Viper - it is INEVITABLE. The crappy chip-sets and limitations of today simply won't exist.

Of course, she doesn't ever get to have a cell phone, because I also like my little girl to be CancerFree™.

[fahreza]

wow, too expensive for low budgeters like me, at $2699 (estimated price US) for body only, I'd rather learn to make do with a D90 and its limitations. it's great that this Canon 5D MkII is more advanced than Nikon's D90, but it comes with a price which doesn't make it as exciting as the D90... or, perhaps that's just me.

i'm looking at some of the sample movies on the canon japan site (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01) right now, and for me they look good and crisp but video-ish compared to D90 footages on the vimeo channel.

[The Sarlacc]

Why not? Does it make it an inferior still camera? No. It's basically a feature that's added for FREE. So why complain it's there?

And why should someone shoot their 'masterpiece' on a DSLR? Well... dynamic range, big sensor, shallow depth of field, interchangeable lenses and so on. That's why.

The ergonomics aren't there for it to be used as a "movie" camera.

The accessories aren't there, and what ever company decides to to try and make them, they are going to be horrendous...because again the ergonomics aren't there. Kinda like the "focus ring adapters" they make for the nikon lenses...they are the worst POS ever.

Not camera assistant friendly AT ALL...especially trying to pull any kind of focus on those lenses.

The software wasn't designed for people to go out and shoot films on...home movies yeah sure...that's about it. Yet here you guys are whining that is ONLY 30p, etc etc etc.

There is a market for the camera you guys want...its called RED, its call Sony, its called Panavision, Arri.......NOT Nikon, NOT Canon.

[wjm]

Oh, one more thing - imagine the kinds of shots we'll start to see that were formerly unpossible (http://www.gotwavs.com/0038475992/MP3S/TV_Shows/Simpsons/faileng.mp3) due to camera size limitations:

1. The old "Inside the Fridge" shot (without having to destroy/empty the fridge)
2. The "Inside the Mailbox" shot
3. The "Inside the (insert miscellaneous body cavity here)" shot, etc...

It's a brave new world, folks. Get ready for the gross and the wonderful and the even MORE gross!

[John Caballero]

But, like it happens so many times in this business, eventually everybody will jump in the bandwagon so they wouldn't feel left behind and outdated. Exactly the same thing that happened when DSLRs first hit the market, "Oh... it will never overtake film, the quality isn't there and never will be..." And now?
When the video DSLRs start shooting at high resolutions, with excellent file format and outstanding compression to small affordable media everybody will start using them. There is no doubt about it. The naysayers from now will quietly acquire them and of course will become experts on the new technology, simply because they will want to belong and think themselves as leaders. Ergonomics? There is nothing easier to hold a good size DSLR, specially up to your eye, and start shooting. There is no science to that.

[The Sarlacc]

The naysayers from now will quietly acquire them and of course will become experts on the new technology, simply because they will want to belong and think themselves as leaders. Ergonomics? There is nothing easier to hold a good size DSLR, specially up to your eye, and start shooting. There is no science to that.

I highly doubt it. You will never see a big budget movie being shot with a DSLR, unless its a particular piece that is looking for something specific. More than likely because the DP is tech head doing it for the hell of it.

Ergonomics...there is nothing easier for ONE person to hold and use a SLR by themselves.

There is nothing stupider than an DSLR on a dolly, on a big head, with an operator behind it, and a camera assistant trying to pull focus amongst the mess of poorly designed AKS that don't really work.

Meanwhile, the Op is being annoying because he is constantly bitching about not really being able to have his eye to the camera, and having to be behind the camera to operate.

Steadicam...He's bitching because the camera is too damn light to fly on his rig. The CA is unhappy because of the piss poor wireless follow focus solution.

ETC ETC ETC

As I said, these were not designed for making movies. You want to go shoot parts of documentary on them, be my guest.

[The Sarlacc]

And my arguments stand for low budget/no budget as well.

I mean sure, why not make life 5x harder in a field that isn't easy to begin with. Especially when you don't have the funds to do much to begin with...

[Taylor Rudd]

You guys whine too much.

When will Canon get it right? They've been getting it right with their PHOTOGRAPHY cameras made for PHOTOGRAPHERS for years.

The 5D is expensive because it boasts amazing specs for photography - full 35mm frame shooting 3.9fps at 21 megapixels, ISO expansion 25,600 (which seems ridiculous, but amazing no less that the image would be remotely usable).

If you guys are looking for a cheap alternative to the RED, then start looking in the right direction.

Coming from a photography background, the 5D is hardly a let down when used for the job it was meant for.


Post-script.
It would be cool if it shot 24p and had a total manual control, but it is silly (foolish?) to be upset that a tool that isn't even marketed toward your profession is deemed inferior because it can't do the job it wasn't even created for.

[The Sarlacc]

you guys whine too much.

When will canon get it right? They've been getting it right with their photography cameras made for photographers for years.

The 5d is expensive because it boasts amazing specs for photography - full 35mm frame shooting 3.9fps at 21 megapixels, iso expansion 25,600 (which seems ridiculous, but amazing no less that the image would be remotely usable).

If you guys are looking for a cheap alternative to the red, then start looking in the right direction.

Coming from a photography background, the 5d is hardly a let down when used for the job it was meant for.


Post-script.
It would be cool if it shot 24p and had a total manual control, but it is silly (foolish?) to be upset that a tool that isn't even marketed toward your profession is deemed inferior because it can't do the job it wasn't even created for.


thank you sir!!!

[Madmanden]

I highly doubt it. You will never see a big budget movie being shot with a DSLR, unless its a particular piece that is looking for something specific. More than likely because the DP is tech head doing it for the hell of it.

Ergonomics...there is nothing easier for ONE person to hold and use a SLR by themselves.

There is nothing stupider than an DSLR on a dolly, on a big head, with an operator behind it, and a camera assistant trying to pull focus amongst the mess of poorly designed AKS that don't really work.

Meanwhile, the Op is being annoying because he is constantly bitching about not really being able to have his eye to the camera, and having to be behind the camera to operate.

Steadicam...He's bitching because the camera is too damn light to fly on his rig. The CA is unhappy because of the piss poor wireless follow focus solution.

ETC ETC ETC

As I said, these were not designed for making movies. You want to go shoot parts of documentary on them, be my guest.
Of course no Hollywood movies will be shot on a DSLR. I don't know about you, but I don't work in Hollywood. I'm just looking for the best tool for my purpose, which is low budget filmmaking. And for that DSLRs give some opportunities that was solely out of reach for the hobbyist until the 35mm adapters came on the market. I'm sorry, but I simply don't have $35k for a tricked out RED One. I'd love one though, but it's not going to happen. But I'll take 1/3rd of its performance for 1/20th of the price*.

*Numbers pulled from my rear.

EDIT:
Trudd, this is mostly a video forum, of course we'll be discussing the video capabilities. No one's saying it's a bad still camera, quite the opposite. It's amazing. But if you don't care about video, then stop "whining" about us discussing it. I mean, Canon put a video mode there, so we should be able to discuss it and its uses.

[Taylor Rudd]

EDIT:
Trudd, this is mostly a video forum, of course we'll be discussing the video capabilities. No one's saying it's a bad still camera, quite the opposite. It's amazing. But if you don't care about video, then stop "whining" about us discussing it. I mean, Canon put a video mode there, so we should be able to discuss it and its uses.

As you were typing that, I was typing this :)

I'm having post-posting remorse.

I do see the redeeming values in potentially being able to use this camera for indie productions - I can't deny how cool it would be if it shot 24p. I was certainly turned on with the D90's capabilities, and turned off by its limitations. The same goes for the 5D.

I was more rubbed wrong by the posts that claim the camera was too expensive, or of no value since it lacked a framerate in a feature that Canon probably views as as throwaway anyhow.

I think we're all excited about where this technology is going. We'll just have to wait until these companies realize the potential of tapping into this market so they can expand this seemingly throwaway must-kind-of-compete-with-Nikon feature.

[Kegan]

Of course Canon put a video mode in there, but as it was mentioned - it was a freebie. Trudd's right in saying that the camera doing what it was originally meant to. Yes, this is a video forum and everyone's entitled to their opinion. The point, I think that he was trying to make is that Canon really doesn't care if its DSLR line is bashed because of a feature they put in that doesn't meet expectations of video professionals. It's a STILL camera - 1080p video is just a bonus.

-Kegan

[Batutta]

I find this all very exciting. I am glad DSLR makers are finally getting into the moving picture business, as for years we've had video companies just continually building onto an old paradigm and trying to make video cameras look like film with varying degrees of success. DSLR makers are coming at the problem from the other direction and I have more faith that in a few years they will attain the dream - variable framerates including 24fps, 2-4k rez, 4:4:4 sampling, 35mm DOF, full exposure and shutter control, autofocus, mic input, mild I-frame compression, and no rolling shutter artifacts for under $2,000.

[The Sarlacc]

Of course no Hollywood movies will be shot on a DSLR. I don't know about you, but I don't work in Hollywood. I'm just looking for the best tool for my purpose, which is low budget filmmaking. And for that DSLRs give some opportunities that was solely out of reach for the hobbyist until the 35mm adapters came on the market. I'm sorry, but I simply don't have $35k for a tricked out RED One. I'd love one though, but it's not going to happen. But I'll take 1/3rd of its performance for 1/20th of the price*.

*Numbers pulled from my rear.


I do work in Hollywood. I do big budget, TV, commercials, etc.

I also still stick to my roots and do plenty of low/no/micro budget. Having had to shoot a short on a HV20 with a Brevis and Nikkor lenses is bad enough...To have to use a DSLR would be ungodly. WHat I am saying is I don't think its the right tool for the job at all.

I think still the top end DSLRs are great for shooting timelapse footage.

I think they are great for shooting still background plates for sfx.

I think its great for stop motion animation.

I don't think they are great to make a short film on.

Yeah, people have visions and want to create, or make a film, or play like they are a movie maker. great.

But if you're serious about really trying to make something, then do it right. Plenty of people with less/no money manage to do it everyday. And I think a DSLR is just asking for more time and trouble in the long run than its really worth.

[The Sarlacc]

As you were typing that, I was typing this :)

I'm having post-posting remorse.

I do see the redeeming values in potentially being able to use this camera for indie productions - I can't deny how cool it would be if it shot 24p. I was certainly turned on with the D90's capabilities, and turned off by its limitations. The same goes for the 5D.

I was more rubbed wrong by the posts that claim the camera was too expensive, or of no value since it lacked a framerate in a feature that Canon probably views as as throwaway anyhow.

I think we're all excited about where this technology is going. We'll just have to wait until these companies realize the potential of tapping into this market so they can expand this seemingly throwaway must-kind-of-compete-with-Nikon feature.

I rescind my thank you :angry:

[dvpixl]

Since this is a video forum, all of our discussions are valid. There is no other topic to get back on. We are ON the topic.

[Taylor Rudd]

I do work in Hollywood. I do big budget, TV, commercials, etc.

I also still stick to my roots and do plenty of low/no/micro budget. Having had to shoot a short on a HV20 with a Brevis and Nikkor lenses is bad enough...To have to use a DSLR would be ungodly. WHat I am saying is I don't think its the right tool for the job at all.

I think still the top end DSLRs are great for shooting timelapse footage.

I think they are great for shooting still background plates for sfx.

I think its great for stop motion animation.

I don't think they are great to make a short film on.

Yeah, people have visions and want to create, or make a film, or play like they are a movie maker. great.

But if you're serious about really trying to make something, then do it right. Plenty of people with less/no money manage to do it everyday. And I think a DSLR is just asking for more time and trouble in the long run than its really worth.

Hmm. My lack-of-budget/student mentality tells me to get the job done, even when the right equipment for the job is a distant dream away. SLRs will obviously never replace conventional equipment, but it makes it easier for the little guy (the rest of us) to practice and get our underbudget, no-reward passions on the web.

I think tools like the future 5D MKIII that will shoot 2-120fps at 50Mb/s XDCam codec with HD-SDI out and 2x phantom XLRs will certainly aid the little guy (the rest of us) in finishing a piece of semi-quality work, but will certainly never replace equipment made for the job.

All I'm saying is that we aren't there, and shouldn't expect to be there until the market for such a product is realized.

[Taylor Rudd]

I rescind my thank you :angry:

Guess it's too late to ask for an apprenticeship? :huh:

[Matthew Bennett]

Have you guys posted a link to the

Discussion about SKEW with the 5D? I've been combing and I can't seem to find a single report...


Link anyone?

The samples look great but of course they are tripod-rigged. They solved all the alias-jaggy problems obviously. A bit edgy for my taste.. but that may be the result of a macho setting.

[John Caballero]

The nayseyers will keep naysaying. We all know were the trend is going. Those that don't want to see don't understand the future. It happened before so don't be surprised when it happens again. A 4k DSLR, camera shooting raw, beautiful DOF, interchangeable lens? Thats a no brainer for the person with vision. And who in their right mind care about how beautiful or not a camera looks on a dolly for God's sake? It is all about the final product. And in case people don't really understand the changes going on, many of today's duties will be gone. Focus pullers by example better be retraining for a more creative position.
Get used naysayers, things will be changing, there is no doubt about it.

[The Sarlacc]

The nayseyers will keep naysaying. We all know were the trend is going. Those that don't want to see don't understand the future. It happened before so don't be surprised when it happens again. A 4k DSLR, camera shooting raw, beautiful DOF, interchangeable lens? Thats a no brainer for the person with vision. And who in their right mind care about how beautiful or not a camera looks on a dolly for God's sake? It is all about the final product. And in case people don't really understand the changes going on, many of today's duties will be gone. Focus pullers by example better be retraining for a more creative position.
Get used naysayers, things will be changing, there is no doubt about it.

It has nothing to do with a camera looking good. It has to do with functionality.

Sure, the final product is everything...but sometimes not worth getting to, or you never even get to it all, if tools provided don't really serve the function of the getting to the end product.

You might want to actually get on a real film set and see exactly what it is a focus puller does before you start trying to say their position will be gone.

Pretty easy to tell you are 1) only reading what you want out of my posts to effect of almost trying to put words in my mouth. 2) You are as amateur as they come. The "creative dreamer" who lives in magical land and wants his amazing and unique (coughcoughcough) vision on screen seems to forget or not realize its the technical people who make that happen. And when they are handed tools not really made for what they are doing, well, then you lose out, too.

Perhaps you should post when you have actually achieved something? Because until then, I am going to continue making a nice living as a naysayer.

[The Sarlacc]

And there is no "trend"

DSLR makers added video to their higher end cameras in a play to try and gain more sales to otherwise would be P&S shooters.

The last thing they thought when they added the functionality was...man I can't wait to see a film shot with our DSLR...

[Chris_TC]

I do work in Hollywood. I do big budget, TV, commercials, etc.
(...)
Perhaps you should post when you have actually achieved something? Because until then, I am going to continue making a nice living as a naysayer.
You may not have realized this yet, but video enabled DSLRs are not targeted towards people like you who can work with high end equipment day in day out.

[David Saraceno]

Chill people. We now have 3 of the exact same threads on the main page.

It's alright.

People are enthusiastic.

The moderators can consolidate these.

[The Sarlacc]

You may not have realized this yet, but video enabled DSLRs are not targeted towards people like you who can work with high end equipment day in day out.

You may not realize this but when I posted that I still work no/lo budget as well it means I DONT have access to high end equipment all day.

And with that said, I still wouldnt choose to shoot something with a DSLR.

[jkrepner]

You may not have realized this yet, but video enabled DSLRs are not targeted towards people like you who can work with high end equipment day in day out.

Good point! I can see using this even on some "semi-pro" shoots though. If I'm videotaping an event, lots of interviews, or anything that can't be staged then I'll use a regular HD or DV camera. If however, you are doing something like a short form commercial or lower budget music video or corporate product shot type thing, then a DSLR with nice glass and nice DOF would be just the ticket to really make your piece look more expensive than it is.

Would I want to shoot 10 interviews using this thing? No.
Shoot exterior shots or b-roll to go along with the intervews? yes!

[John Caballero]

Pretty easy to tell you are 1) only reading what you want out of my posts to effect of almost trying to put words in my mouth. 2) You are as amateur as they come. The "creative dreamer" who lives in magical land and wants his amazing and unique (coughcoughcough) vision on screen seems to forget or not realize its the technical people who make that happen. And when they are handed tools not really made for what they are doing, well, then you lose out, too.

Perhaps you should post when you have actually achieved something? Because until then, I am going to continue making a nice living as a naysayer.


Ahaaa...35 years in the wonderful world of dream making with beautiful images, my Hollywood friend. I remember many years ago when a friend of mine told me "Hollywood says it is impossible for anybody but us to make movies." Then he told me "thats because they don't want you to get in in their business." Then independent movies started flourishing.
Everyday we are seeing so many changes in the industry allowing more and more people with talent to shine thru with the new technology that is becoming available. We are in changing times when big empires are beginning to crumble. Who would have thought a giant like like Lehman Bros. would be brought down to its knees and killed. As less expensive cameras with high quality output begin making its mark it will be a whole different story out there.

[The Sarlacc]

Ahaaa...35 years in the wonderful world of dream making with beautiful images, my Hollywood friend. I remember many years ago when a friend of mine told me "Hollywood says it is impossible for anybody but us to make movies." Then he told me "thats because they don't want you to get in in their business." Then independent movies started flourishing.
Everyday we are seeing so many changes in the industry allowing more and more people with talent to shine thru with the new technology that is becoming available. We are in changing times when big empires are beginning to crumble. Who would have thought a giant like like Lehman Bros. would we brought down to its knees and killed. As less expensive cameras with high quality output begin making its mark it will be a whole different story out there.

Assuming they even MAKE the DSLR to compete with the pro video line. And they aren't. Not yet and hopefully not ever.

And out of all these little movies that get made by these people, myself included, even go on to become anything? what percent? because i'll bet its only like 1-2% even though there is more independent cinema being made, doesn't mean its going anywhere or doing anything. And of those 1-2% that made it somewhere...how many of them were connected enough they already had a foot in the door vs. total newcomers with NO experience/connections/opportunities. The statistic drops even more.

Studios were crushed in the 70s by indie filmmaking only to reclaim their place. It happened again when a movie called Pulp Fiction popped up out of nowhere. And again the Studios came back to all the little indie distro companies. Its not a whole different story, its history repeating again and again.

[Batutta]

Studios were crushed in the 70s by indie filmmaking only to reclaim their place. It happened again when a movie called Pulp Fiction popped up out of nowhere. And again the Studios came back to all the little indie distro companies. Its not a whole different story, its history repeating again and again.

Studios were never crushed, ever. Occasionally they had a bit more competition, which they quickly absorbed. Most of the classics of 70's cinema were made by the studios so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

[The Sarlacc]

Studios were never crushed, ever. Occasionally they had a bit more competition, which they quickly absorbed. Most of the classics of 70's cinema were made by the studios so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Its called the fall of Old Hollywood where the studios were very much rivaled by all the indie filmmakers. It was more late 60's (1969) to 1980. After Easy Rider all the young indie talent became in high demand, and many of them were anti-studio. Yes, the studios were still around, but many went outside their realm as much as possible. The studios came back to full power, and the industry again changed incorporating what came of the indie era.

[John Caballero]

And out of all these little movies that get made by these people, myself included, even go on to become anything? what percent? because i'll bet its only like 1-2% even though there is more independent cinema being made, doesn't mean its going anywhere or doing anything. And of those 1-2% that made it somewhere...how many of them were connected enough they already had a foot in the door vs. total newcomers with NO experience/connections/opportunities. The statistic drops even more.


Oh. Oh. How can you come in this forum with statements like that for Gods sake! This forum is full of hard working individuals trying everyday to showcase their talent and make a career out of it. How dare you diminish their efforts and imply that it will be impossible for any of them to succeed in the pursuit of their dreams with their "little movies" unless they are "connected". That is why empires will keep crumbling as time goes by. Like it or not technology like these new DSLRs will make a difference for many people. Like it or not there will be other avenues for new filmakers that are not highly connected. We are all aware that in the Hollywood circles is not what you know but who you know. But many independent filmmakers deserve the chance our "democracy" is supposed to allow them.

[Kholi]

John... sorry to ask this, but have you been working as a photographer or do you shoot video/film?

[el presidente]

cor..its worse in here than my local pub..watch no-one starts throwing chairs!
:beer:

[John Caballero]

John... sorry to ask this, but have you been working as a photographer or do you shoot video/film?

35mm stills, 120mm stills, 4x5 film, 8x10 film, Digital stills, super 8 movie film, 16mm movie film, 35mm movie film, VHS, Hi8 Video, 3/4 Inch video, DV, HD video. Started selling images when I was 14 years old and I am 47 years old today. Oh, I also write professionally, currently for a spanish publication and I also write english material. In addition I do graphic art including magazine layouts and also websites. I knew when I was 6 years old photography and movies were to be my bread and butter.

Anything else you would like to know?

[Kholi]

How can you not know that what Sarlacc says is true, then? You're acting like he said something that isn't pretty well known.

Confusing.

[The Sarlacc]

Oh. Oh. How can you come in this forum with statements like that for Gods sake! This forum is full of hard working individuals trying everyday to showcase their talent and make a career out of it. How dare you diminish their efforts and imply that it will be impossible for any of them to succeed in the pursuit of their dreams with their "little movies" unless they are "connected". That is why empires will keep crumbling as time goes by. Like it or not technology like these new DSLRs will make a difference for many people. Like it or not there will be other avenues for new filmakers that are not highly connected. We are all aware that in the Hollywood circles is not what you know but who you know. But many independent filmmakers deserve the chance our "democracy" is supposed to allow them.

Yes, how dare I throw the honest truth out there.

I'm as much for the little guys making as anyone. I'd love nothing more than to be a part of one of these "little movies" I've helped make go big time. I also know the reality of it...even with connections.

Just because more people might be able to flood the market with even more product doesn't mean anyone has increased their chances. Probably just made it even harder to found.

Its very unlikely you will see the studios empire "crumble."

[Thebes]

I also still stick to my roots and do plenty of low/no/micro budget. Having had to shoot a short on a HV20 with a Brevis and Nikkor lenses is bad enough...To have to use a DSLR would be ungodly. WHat I am saying is I don't think its the right tool for the job at all.

I prefer the ergonomics of the D90 to my HV20 with a DOF adapter. I've shot with both and the D90 is MUCH easier to use. It has a display which can be used for focus, the HV20 with a DOF adapter needs a monitor. The D90 has a lens you can adjust while handholding it- just try that with a DOF adapter on an HV20... maybe with a glidecam, sure, but not held by itself in your hands.



But if you're serious about really trying to make something, then do it right. Plenty of people with less/no money manage to do it everyday. And I think a DSLR is just asking for more time and trouble in the long run than its really worth.

Have you shot anything on a DSLR? You seem extremely opinionated for not having done so, but I haven't read anything saying you have. Perhaps you feel that this sort of gear is a threat to your established Hollywood methods?

I guess "doing it right" means I need 4 men working a camera, even if I'm trying to shoot descretely, or in a small space? The other day I shot usable footage - handheld, pulled focus, and adjusted the declicked iris all at the same time- I will admit that this was tricky and calls for more practice, but the ergonomics of the camera facilitated it, rather than preventing it. With my DSLR I have a camera that I can achive shallow DOF with, in low light, without cumbersome rails, expensive follow focuses, external monitors, etc.

[Kholi]

Can't agree on not shootin' with a DSLR, though. Someone will do it and then others will follow.

I'm still upset at the 30p thing. Tsk.

[John Caballero]

Sarlacc I understand pertfectly what you are saying. And that is a reality. But you are denying the fact that new technology will allow people to create in a different way and who the heck knows if that new technology will be perfectly acceptable in the future. You can not say for sure that these new DSLRs will be failure and make no difference. That they will be no good. You could have said the same thing about digital cinema carving out a portion off real film production. And look whats happening. Eventually film will dissapear, and that is a fact. The more companies like RED work at their stuff the less need for film there will be.
All the dreamers in this forum need encouragement not people telling them they won't make it even if they try their hardest.

[The Sarlacc]

I prefer the ergonomics of the D90 to my HV20 with a DOF adapter. I've shot with both and the D90 is MUCH easier to use. It has a display which can be used for focus, the HV20 with a DOF adapter needs a monitor. The D90 has a lens you can adjust while handholding it- just try that with a DOF adapter on an HV20... maybe with a glidecam, sure, but not held by itself in your hands.


I've shot with my friends hv20 with a brevis with rods...its annoying as hell, but possible to handhold and pull focus. Fact is...same with a DSLR pulling focus and shooting with these camera set ups aren't always (and majority of the time) synonymous.



Have you shot anything on a DSLR? You seem extremely opinionated for not having done so, but I haven't read anything saying you have. Perhaps you feel that this sort of gear is a threat to your established Hollywood methods?

I guess "doing it right" means I need 4 men working a camera, even if I'm trying to shoot descretely, or in a small space? The other day I shot usable footage - handheld, pulled focus, and adjusted the declicked iris all at the same time- I will admit that this was tricky and calls for more practice, but the ergonomics of the camera facilitated it, rather than preventing it. With my DSLR I have a camera that I can achive shallow DOF with, in low light, without cumbersome rails, expensive follow focuses, external monitors, etc.

I have shot stills for many years. I currently own a Nikon D3 along with my older D100. I also primarily shoot my still cameras hand held. I only borrow a tripod from a friend when I need one. And the weight of handholding a DSLR can become taxing. More than you realize at first.

And "doing it right" depends on your meaning of the term. In a situation where I'm on a location set up for a proper shoot. Yeah, I mean it.

For guerilla style. depends. I just did a guerilla shoot with a RED camera fully built running around the city in a minivan. One follow car with the main gear for when stopped, but majority shooting out of the door of the van. 4-5 crew members total. We made conversions from studio to steadicam in under 5 minutes, and got all the shots we needed, when we werent booted out of places. And it doesnt matter if you have a big camera or a still...when youre not supposed to be shooting someplace you can't be discreet with a DSLR either.

I've done a lot. And if you running around by yourself with no one else, thats a different story...but then what are you making?

[The Sarlacc]

Sarlacc I understand pertfectly what you are saying. And that is a reality. But you are denying the fact that new technology will allow people to create in a different way and who the heck knows if that new technology will be perfectly acceptable in the future. You can not say for sure that these new DSLRs will be failure and make no difference. That they will be no good. You could have said the same thing about digital cinema carving out a portion off real film production. And look whats happening. Eventually film will dissapear, and that is a fact. The more companies like RED work at their stuff the less need for film there will be.
All the dreamers in this forum need encouragement not people telling them they won't make it even if they try their hardest.

I never denied the new technology would be acceptable,embraced, or that it would fail. I just said I am against the idea of a still camera being used as a movie camera.

And I love film. I am VERY pro film. I am also a techhead and I love digital. And, yes, sadly there will come a day where film is no more.

I just hope I am retired by then.

[John Caballero]

Ok. Lets wait and see what the future brings. I am getting old and I am lucky to have witnessed the transition from the old days to the new technology. It has been quite a ride.

[Boomerang]

Just seems odd that Canon went with 24 look on the HV20 and made it consumer accessible. Than to not offer it on a DSLR where it really is worth having between the SDOF and low light capabilities.

Maybe they are protecting there HV20/30 line for now.

[PappasArts]

As easily put as possible:

24p = Movie Cadence
30p = Home Video Cadence

Different strokes for different folks. The majority of these boards are 24p based. Even for Wedding Shoots.


Gotta disagree here. 60i and the 60P ( 60 FPS ) are the associated home video look your talking about. 30P, which Iwerks runs at, is anything but homevideo look.

When I was doing studying at Showscan long ago which runs at 60fps on 65MM had the identical temporal foot print as video 60i does on the human brain. Since each field of a 60i chain follows one after another, ( half rez frames ) nevertheless they still follow in sequence is the reason when transferring showscan 60fps 65mm to 60i video all frames from the film frame rate are intact in 60i video. 30p has half the temporal footprint of the live 60i , 60p or 60fps temporal feel we associate with news or live event video etc feel.

30P has only a 6 frame temporal difference from 24fps feel. 60I or 60P has a 36 frame temporal difference, hence the major difference on the later from 24 feel....


That said, their stupid for not putting a 24 on this camera. If Nikon could , Canon could have. Typical Canon marketing games....



.

[Kholi]

Can you tell the difference between 24p and 30p?

[PappasArts]

On pan speed tests and Optical spinning wheels of course. Then again, these are tests, not real world filming with people, scenes etc which is what counts.

It's a hair split on temporal brain response.

[ando]

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-16717-EOS+Canon+5D+Mark+II+HANDS+ON+with+Video+&+Pictures+Sample!!!.html

[Omar Casasola]

I can't wait to see a Hasselblad that shoots 24p, 1080, full manual control, 16x9.

[f64manray]

here's a bit of hands on (sorry no video, but you can watch this guy fondle it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1TYN4mPF0&feature=related&fmt=18

[Kholi]

On pan speed tests and Optical spinning wheels of course. Then again, these are tests, not real world filming with people, scenes etc which is what counts.

It's a hair split on temporal brain response.

Honestly, it's enough to make it look too "weird" for a narrative shoot or Music video. But, I digress. Ye shall defend it as ye see fit.

[ando]

get the video from my link
very wide lens
some wobble
VERY strange colors and DR

[j]

>Can you tell the difference between 24p and 30p?

Myself? Barely. You can tell it's there, but it's not like it's the end of the world. It's not like it will take you out of the story. It's also nowhere near 60p or 60i. That's yuck.

I've intercut 30p capture with 24p capture on feature films in order to sync tv screens, and almost no one notices.

But don't let my centrist comments get in the way of your flame wars...

[ando]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1405294&postcount=18

[PappasArts]

Someone said they read that it goes up to 30P, so who knows. I would prefer 24. If Nikon could, Canon has Z E R O excuses for not doing 24. The Nikon still is awesome and in no way does this take away what nikon has done first. Nikon could respond in a firmware that changes a lot too.

This game has only begun..... 2nd and 3rd gen of these cameras and others who enter the market are going to even be better....

[The Sarlacc]

Someone said they read that it goes up to 30P, so who knows. I would prefer 24. If Nikon could, Canon has Z E R O excuses for not doing 24. The Nikon still is awesome and in no way does this take away what nikon has done first. Nikon could respond in a firmware that changes a lot too.

This game has only begun..... 2nd and 3rd gen of these cameras and others who enter the market are going to even be better....


Sure they do. Canon already exists in the video market. Nikon does not.

I'll be interested to hear what happens next. After all the emails flying around today. Some big pros who shoot Canon are PISSED at these latest and underwhelming offerings in the PRO STILL world. 1080p video, but a lack high framerate for speed shooting? High mpx count, which all pros know isnt the end all be all. How will it affect the ISO peformance vs. the nikon d3/d700 which should have been the 5D II target?

The pro still guys are pissed because they feel making dslr that does 2 different things takes away from them focusing on it from doing one really good thing...taking stills. Which is where I agree the most, and where my original and biggest argument against the N90 came from.

I hope the backlash from the still community makes Nikon and Canon both think twice. Make a better still camera.

[ando]

I hope the backlash from the still community makes Nikon and Canon both think twice. Make a better still camera.


i understand what you'd like from the 5d mk2 but what would you like more for $999? why is it a bad still camera?

[The Sarlacc]

i understand what you'd like from the 5d mk2 but what would you like more for $999? why is it a bad still camera?

Nikon raised the bar with the D300/D3/D700...they finally got themselves taken way more seriously by larger groups of Canon pros.

They should continue that trend with their entry level cameras where they are weakest.

N90 isnt a bad camera, but it could be so much more.

[ando]

let's not go on
surely you're not a photographer
this is a video section anyway. fan forums are on other sites.

and it's D90, not N90. that was a film camera long time ago

[shaocaholica]

N90 isnt a bad camera, but it could be so much more.

How so? More of a video camera or more of a still camera? Its already a baby D300 for ~1/3 less money.

[Isaac_Brody]

I'm a little confused why some don't want to embrace the 24P vs 30P/60i video look? Do you really want to go to films and have it identical looking to daytime television? This is like a flashback to 2003 and the DVX vs PD150 debates that almost drew blood around here.

Canon dropped the ball, and it seems pretty intentional too. Why would I want to go backwards to 2003 with my camera? No thanks. I'll wait for version 2.0 or a firmware update....

[Car3o]

I think Nikon will release a pretty good firmware to fix some issues, not the RS, but at least the compression and use of manual controls, or announce a new camera altogether. I mentioned canon intentionally made it 30p to protect the prosumer camcorders that cost 2x the 5dII. It wasn't done on accident.

[The Sarlacc]

let's not go on
surely you're not a photographer
this is a video section anyway. fan forums are on other sites.

and it's D90, not N90. that was a film camera long time ago

Typo on the N90/D90. I own a N90s, so yes I am aware of what it is.

I don't consider myself a professional photographer, but I do take it serious as a hobby and enthusiast. So, yeah, surely I am.

[nicepants]

I hope the backlash from the still community makes Nikon and Canon both think twice. Make a better still camera.

I agree to an extent..but with still cameras increasingly digital, and video cameras increasingly digital....there may eventually come a point where it no longer makes sense to separate these into 2 different devices. Obviously there will still be a need for specialized niche cameras of one format or the other, but if the goal is to capture images and you have a "still" camera that can capture images up to 30 frames per second with the same quality...there won't be a need to denote a camera as "still" or "video". It will just be a "camera".

I think that's where we're headed with this, and I'm all for it. I planned on getting the 5d Mkii even before I learned about it's ability to record HD video. It'll be a huge step up from my 10D, and the HD video functionality will blow my GL-2 out of the water.

[The Sarlacc]

How so? More of a video camera or more of a still camera? Its already a baby D300 for ~1/3 less money.

More of a still camera.

[Madmanden]

More of a still camera.
Wouldn't it be kinda hard for them to make the D90 even better when it's their "low-level" camera? Like someone said, it's already a great camera for much less than the bigger models. I don't see them making it even better than their top line models. Bad business and unlikely strategy.

[The Sarlacc]

Wouldn't it be kinda hard for them to make the D90 even better when it's their "low-level" camera? Like someone said, it's already a great camera for much less than the bigger models. I don't see them making it even better than their top line models. Bad business and unlikely strategy.

Its an interesting line up from Nikon. Not saying the D90 is bad, but the focus should be on making it better as a still camera, not a video camera.

The D60 is Nikons low level entry DSLR...and I think there is still the D40x which is the bottom of the line entry level.

So, the D90 hovers in that mid-range/prosumer level.

[thisiswells]

WOW, 21 megapixels in a D-SLR? Geez, that's awesome! For $2699? Amazing price.

Plus, the 30P video mode would be excellent for shooting vignette spots and PSA's in 30fps, by retiming them to 24fps for an overcrank effect! Add Twixtor for 40FPS. AND, it has a regular old audio input that I can use to keep timecode sync with an external recorder (using an Ambient LockIt for time code sync?

Well, here's my new choice for low light, low noise, high quality interviews.

For $2699. I can use it along with my Kino Flo's, too? I am tired of hauling around 4 banks for interviews. Skinny Boy's are more my style. 2' Double's here I come!!!

All this for $2699?

I will keep the Letus Extreme, Zeiss ZF's, and my pair of XH-A1's, but this will be a real treat. Plus, I already have the lenses, mic's, tripod, and monitors. For $2699? This is a no brainer, guys.

I'll be selling my original 5D and battery tomorrow and will rent until this 5D Mark II comes out.

This is a really nice camera for the $$$.

[Kholi]

WOW, 21 megapixels in a D-SLR? Geez, that's awesome! For $2699? Amazing price.

Plus, the 30P video mode would be excellent for shooting vignette spots and PSA's in 30fps, by retiming them to 24fps for an overcrank effect! Add Twixtor for 40FPS. AND, it has a regular old audio input that I can use to keep timecode sync with an external recorder (using an Ambient LockIt for time code sync?

Well, here's my new choice for low light, low noise, high quality interviews.

For $2699. I can use it along with my Kino Flo's, too? I am tired of hauling around 4 banks for interviews. Skinny Boy's are more my style. 2' Double's here I come!!!

All this for $2699?

I will keep the Letus Extreme, Zeiss ZF's, and my pair of XH-A1's, but this will be a real treat. Plus, I already have the lenses, mic's, tripod, and monitors. For $2699? This is a no brainer, guys.

I'll be selling my original 5D and battery tomorrow and will rent until this 5D Mark II comes out.

This is a really nice camera for the $$$.

Unfortunately, since Canon is a Ball Dropper and the RED has a NIkon mount on it I'll be gettin' rid of my C/Y's. Want to sell me your Zeiss ZFs? Or setup a trade plus cash on my end for some C/Y Zeiss' of the same quality with a Contax and EOS mount for the Letus Extreme? You could use them on the Canon as well.

PM me? :D

It was worth a try!

[ando]

Its an interesting line up from Nikon. Not saying the D90 is bad, but the focus should be on making it better as a still camera, not a video camera.

The D60 is Nikons low level entry DSLR...and I think there is still the D40x which is the bottom of the line entry level.

So, the D90 hovers in that mid-range/prosumer level.

still talking about this????
d90 is one of the biggest upgrades in the D50-d80 series
the new cmos gives over 1 f-stop better iso performance, it received scene recognition from d300 and a feature impossible on any canon: color tracking and face detection in phase focus. that as an add on the features like flash commander. if you don't like it, fine. but d90 is far away from a bad model.

if nikon interest is video they would have used the older CCD sensor, zero rolling shutter. not the new cmos. it's a 100% photo design. and nothing more to add unless you pay some more for d300. it's a better upgrade than 50d to 40d.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Nikon rocks.


Let's see what their next volley will be.

[The Sarlacc]

still talking about this????
d90 is one of the biggest upgrades in the D50-d80 series
the new cmos gives over 1 f-stop better iso performance, it received scene recognition from d300 and a feature impossible on any canon: color tracking and face detection in phase focus. that as an add on the features like flash commander. if you don't like it, fine. but d90 is far away from a bad model.

if nikon interest is video they would have used the older CCD sensor, zero rolling shutter. not the new cmos. it's a 100% photo design. and nothing more to add unless you pay some more for d300. it's a better upgrade than 50d to 40d.

You don't read very well, huh. You just quoted a statement I made where I said the D90 is NOT a bad camera. Reading...its fundemental.

[The Sarlacc]

WOW, 21 megapixels in a D-SLR? Geez, that's awesome! For $2699? Amazing price.


Yeah...what are you going to do with all those megapixels? Make some billboards?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yeah...what are you going to do with all those megapixels? Make some billboards?


Hopefully some hot monkey porn. :)

[The Sarlacc]

Hopefully some hot monkey porn. :)

some things you just want to see in HD :zombie_smiley:

[ESTEBEVERDE]

some things you just want to see in HD :zombie_smiley:

:beer:

[frisco]

Yeah...what are you going to do with all those megapixels? Make some billboards?

21 megapix just reached adequate. 21 megapix native file size covers 11"x17" Double Page spread at 300dpi

Sure.... upsizeing happens all the time, But with a cost in image quality.

frisco

[The Sarlacc]

21 megapix just reached adequate. 21 megapix native file size covers 11"x17" Double Page spread at 300dpi

Sure.... upsizeing happens all the time, But with a cost in image quality.

frisco


high megapixels used come at a cost as well...crappy high ISO handling in low light. But we shall see what Canon has done in the arena.

[Krummi]

I'm really looking forward to seeing all the real world tests rolling in. Nikon has been shooting for lower noise through lower pixel density, hence the lower pixel count. Canon has always pumped the pixels, with pretty good results.

Here are my two, probably not too popular, cents:

The video mode in these DSLRS is really nothing more than a novelty add-on. Sure, you are getting awesome dynamic range, cool DOF effects, a lot of lens options and amazing low light quality.

But all that does not a movie making machine make.

Why not? A couple of reasons:

a) "crippled" functions, including automatic shutter, no 24p (and yes, 24p matters and will keep mattering long after film is gone, because we are ALL programmed to know that this is how MOVIES look!), automatic exposure (I think), limited recording time, limited recording format and so on.

more importantly:

b) It's a DSLR with movie recording capabilities. It's movie mode may be awesome in many core ways, but it's still a DSLR. After having shot with a lot of different SLRs and Video cameras (currently own a Nikon D200 and Sony PMW-EX1 and a whole Brevis kit) I simply cannot imagine shooting a whole narrative piece on a DSLR with an automatic shutter, automatic exposure, having hassles with sound recording, codecs, recording times and what not.

Does anyone remember the South Park episode where Mr. Garrison invents the worlds best, most economic vehicle....but to operate it you basically had to stick a dildo into your ass and mouth a stroke a couple of phalicshaped things.

I'm not saying it's that bad, but it's in the same category.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool. It's a very cool feature on a, probably, pretty amazing digital photographic camera. For a do-it-yourself enthusiast who has money laying around, it's a dream gadget. I just don't think it's going to be very practical, or very popular, for serious Videography and/or filmmaking. It might catch on in the wedding business, but crippled recording times are still going to be a problem there.

This is probably going to be as good as it gets from Canon. They have a huge Video department to protect and they will not cripple themselves. They never have and won't start now. Nikon, on the other hand, has no such qualms. The best thing that can come from this is that Nikon listens to all this enthusiasm and makes a REAL Nikon mounted S35mm sensored VIDEO camera.

[frisco]

high megapixels used come at a cost as well...crappy high ISO handling in low light. But we shall see what Canon has done in the arena.

Lost me?

frisco

[ando]

canon's biggest problem with 21mp is the lack of lenses to outresolve that
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html
the first time ever when a zoom lens performed better than any fixed lens

most L lenses can't resolve 21mp, actually none of the wide L lenses do
you may enjoy now your 21mp at a cheap price. but don't expect to see 21mp very soon as resolution in your images.

so to the future 5dmk2 owners here i suggest getting one of these
http://www.16-9.net/nikon_g/

don't trust me? see here. this is a $1299 lens, L
http://web1.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/downloads/2_landscape.jpg

[The Sarlacc]

Lost me?

frisco

The 1DsMkIII was Canon's big megapixel studio body. Lots of megapixel, not so great noise levels in low light, especially with higher ISO.

A big reason for this was the fact of going so high in resolution, you gave up on cleaner images in lower light. Check out digital medium format cameras...most I've seen don't go over ISO 800.

That was Nikon's reason for keeping to 12-14mpx with their bodies. They were able to deliver on amazing low light and high ISO performance.

Now, its been rumored for some time that Nikon will introduce a higher ISO studio body to compete with the mkIII, but in the meantime, this is where Nikon won...the D3/D700 was able to perform in low light/high ISO like no other digital body. Garnered a lot of people switching over.

But like all things, these companies will trump each other left and right. Which i good, because that means they'll both put out a great product.

cept for the addition of HD video ;)

[Car3o]

the picture loaded up like i was on dial up again....sheesh

[frisco]

Wow..... ando.....

Very brave of you to bring this up in a video forum..... I once brought up some higher level lens info onto this forum when discussing the use of older manual lens and it seemed to be over the heads of the lower budget filmers here.

For Canon there was a big delay in bringing out the 1dsMklll for this exact reason.

Nice post ando!

frisco



canon's biggest problem with 21mp is the lack of lenses to outresolve that
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html
the first time ever when a zoom lens performed better than any fixed lens

most L lenses can't resolve 21mp, actually none of the wide L lenses do
you may enjoy now your 21mp at a cheap price. but don't expect to see 21mp very soon as resolution in your images.

so to the future 5dmk2 owners here i suggest getting one of these
http://www.16-9.net/nikon_g/

[rawfa]

Nikon, on the other hand, has no such qualms. The best thing that can come from this is that Nikon listens to all this enthusiasm and makes a REAL Nikon mounted S35mm sensored VIDEO camera.

That would be awesome.

I'm betting on Red to fill the gap with a revolutionary hybrid product that will please both film makers and photographers. Being a smaller and newer company they "can afford" to listen to what people want instead of telling what people want.

[frisco]

The 1DsMkIII was Canon's big megapixel studio body. Lots of megapixel, not so great noise levels in low light, especially with higher ISO.

- Ummm..... Wouldn't call anything in a 35mm body a studio camera. I have two of these cameras and noise is not an issue. Yes... Any digital camera makes noise at higher ISO's, under exposed in a dark hole. Only amatuers and journalists get caught in those enviroments.

A big reason for this was the fact of going so high in resolution, you gave up on cleaner images in lower light. Check out digital medium format cameras...most I've seen don't go over ISO 800.

- I own a Hasselblad/Leaf Aptus 75 set-up. Most don't spend 50k-70k on a med format system to shoot low light High ISO's. Where I come from 800 is High ISO
I mostly shoot at ISO 50 or 100..... Maybe 200 if I get myself into trouble. Gotta put light on it and control your light levels.

That was Nikon's reason for keeping to 12-14mpx with their bodies. They were able to deliver on amazing low light and high ISO performance.

- Not true. Nikon opted to use a smaller APS size sensors for edge sharpness reasons.

Now, its been rumored for some time that Nikon will introduce a higher ISO studio body to compete with the mkIII, but in the meantime, this is where Nikon won...the D3/D700 was able to perform in low light/high ISO like no other digital body. Garnered a lot of people switching over.

- Can't call you out on this one as I know nothing about the D3/D700's

But like all things, these companies will trump each other left and right. Which i good, because that means they'll both put out a great product.

- It's been a long while since Nikon trumped Canon. Now don't get your panties all bunched up.... This is not a Nikon bash!!! I have made a nice living with both systems and have a great relationship with both companies.

cept for the addition of HD video ;)

frisco

[thisiswells]

Yeah...what are you going to do with all those megapixels? Make some billboards?

shoot wider than I have to, then crop.

over 90% of my stills lately have been on a 135mm f/2... This lens will utilize all those megapixels, no doubt! So, for me and my needs, it's a good fit.

[dual]

All this garbage about 24 and 30p and "it's not really 1080p" and ae is a complete turn off really! Some people here keep discussing endlessly over the same things on and on, that's how the d90 thread got unreadable! The same happens to this thread. Useful discussions go down inside a pile of junk. Sorry, but it has to be said, it's annoying.

One question I would like to add: Is anybody else here from Europe and planning on being one of the first to get your hands on a 5d? I'd like to find a way to achieve that. Ideas, other than preordering soon?

[Ian-T]

Speaking of European versions....I wonder if they will have 25p instead of 30p?

[FBAS]

Sorry I have to chime in on that 24p vs. 30p as well - but I've been reading arguments here that say a feature film shot on a Red One in 30p will look like home video. Excuse me, but that is bullsh*t! The 30p movie will not have the classic 24p look (that you might or might not miss - I for instance won't miss it!) but it will in no way look like home video. Let aside superior picture quality, decent lighting and so on and so on, 30p does NOT equal 60i, which is basically speaking half-resolution 60p.

I'd love to see more good films shot in higher framerates and let them lay the ground for a new, modern style in filmmaking!
My experiences with watching pans in 24p on a movie theater screen haven't really been that enjoyable. Call me an amateur if you like - but I think most people would like higher framerates better if they even knew what framerates were...

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Great points.

If it were all about frame rate I would challenge those who hold this position to take any ol crap camera and shoot at 24p.

That would be all there was too it!


But, we know that it much more than film cadence.


Really the sine qua non is the story.

[The Sarlacc]

I'd love to see more good films shot in higher framerates and let them lay the ground for a new, modern style in filmmaking!
My experiences with watching pans in 24p on a movie theater screen haven't really been that enjoyable. Call me an amateur if you like - but I think most people would like higher framerates better if they even knew what framerates were...

They have that already. They are called Soap Operas and they look like shit.

[f64manray]

Here's a little demo from a Canon rep. He demos some of the video mode toward the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnpQcuhEk0Y&fmt=18

[J.R. Hudson]

But, we know that it much more than film cadence.

Always true when all things are equal. But in this case, it isn't equal, is it ?

[f64manray]

MKII slow pan

http://www.canon-ci.co.kr/product/smov/pop03.html

[Kholi]

Sorry I have to chime in on that 24p vs. 30p as well - but I've been reading arguments here that say a feature film shot on a Red One in 30p will look like home video. Excuse me, but that is bullsh*t! The 30p movie will not have the classic 24p look (that you might or might not miss - I for instance won't miss it!) but it will in no way look like home video. Let aside superior picture quality, decent lighting and so on and so on, 30p does NOT equal 60i, which is basically speaking half-resolution 60p.

I'd love to see more good films shot in higher framerates and let them lay the ground for a new, modern style in filmmaking!
My experiences with watching pans in 24p on a movie theater screen haven't really been that enjoyable. Call me an amateur if you like - but I think most people would like higher framerates better if they even knew what framerates were...

Yes, it would. sorry. And, can't wait for one of you people to go and shoot a feature in 30p.

Make sure you record the audience responses. And, yeah, I care what the audience thinks: who do you think is gonna keep your career going?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Always true when all things are equal. But in this case, it isn't equal, is it ?

The D90 yes for static shots.

The 5DII... not really. So far everything I've seen from it is ugly.

But that's just me.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yes, it would. sorry. And, can't wait for one of you people to go and shoot a feature in 30p.

Make sure you record the audience responses. And, yeah, I care what the audience thinks: who do you think is gonna keep your career going?

Wow....


Just... wow.....


I think we should start a 24p Vs The WORLD thread in cinematography.

Just so we can really beat the dead horse.

[Rubbersquare]

why isn't there a section for this? the d90 got there little section. why not a section under canon cameras?

[Kholi]

Wow....


Just... wow.....


I think we should start a 24p Vs The WORLD thread in cinematography.

Just so we can really beat the dead horse.

Your logic is flawed. It's okay for someone to say something against it... but responding is wrong?

A+

[Rubbersquare]

i did a few tests exporting canon's footage from final cut at 24fps and it was (despite the blandness of the footage) not bad. not as good as shooting natively at 24fps, but better than staying in 30fps which is so soccer mom.

[Kholi]

Can you vimeo it, Rubber?

[Rubbersquare]

i'll try tomorrow at work (oops, don't tell the boss). file is there. or at least copy it and put it up over the weekend. tough to tell on their footage with such minimal movement (like we can't see the effects of the rolling shutter) but it seemed to have a slightly nicer cadence. not so perfect. and that, i think, is part of the allure of 24fps. that it's NOT perfect. if digital video gets to the point of perfectly mimicking human eyesight, doesn't the movie become less of an escape?

[Elton]

It seems to me if Optical Flow from Shake can create good vector frames for slow motion, that it might be possible to create acceptable interpolations of 30p to 24p.

[stoiqa]

MKII slow pan

http://www.canon-ci.co.kr/product/smov/pop03.html

you would think that beta testers would be a little creative:-Mark-13(DBG)


why isn't there a section for this? the d90 got there little section. why not a section under canon cameras?
...header of the website says"..online community for filmmaking"...not soap opera (lol....just putting some gas over....:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

[Rubbersquare]

...header of the website says"..online community for filmmaking"...not soap opera (lol....just putting some gas over....:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):
just wanna be able to check out what's new with canon's entry into VDSLR, since nikon's only entry into any kind of video has it's own section. i'd prefer a canon for many reasons i won't go into unprovoked, and wonder why - if a dslr from nikon with video cpabilities gets a dedicated section with the highest viewers of all sections on dvxuser - there's not s slot for the new canon, which also records video, under the canon section.

pour the gas all you want, zak's shooting with the d90. i'll be shooting with either the d90 or (if the rolling shutter is less on the canon) the canon 5d mark ii shortly. laugh, mock, ridicule at will. the tools are here. some are embracing; some are whining. i'd rather be one forging ahead.

[Thebes]

...
if a dslr from nikon with video cpabilities gets a dedicated section with the highest viewers of all sections on dvxuser - there's not s slot for the new canon, which also records video, under the canon section.
...

It dawns on me that all of the talk about the Canon is a bit premature. As I understand it most people won't be able to have one in their hands until early next year. I know how all the rumors and speculation flew around prior to the D90's release, and how much my understanding of the situation changed when people started having them in their hands... would a Canon section to discuss the speculation of what the camera be like when it ships really be useful?

I hope that by early next year Nikon will have another D-SLR out that's able to shoot video, and maybe Sony or someone else (Red?) as well.

[Madmanden]

It took a while for the D90 to get a forum. The D5 will probably get one too when it's out.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Your logic is flawed. It's okay for someone to say something against it... but responding is wrong?

A+


Love You Kholi!


I haven't the slightest idea of what you mean but cheers all the same! :beer:

[ando]

why isn't there a section for this? the d90 got there little section. why not a section under canon cameras?

wait till december man
there won't be any 5dmk2 until then for the public

d90 got a section after release, not before

[bakoo]

30FPS is not good, then hack the firmware and get 24FPS?

As far as i am aware, all these features are controlled by the firmware, and other code based modules on the camera, so the question is more, how long will it take to hack the firmware so this camcorder can do 24FPS?

Its easier (safer/possible) to slow down a sensor, but speeding it up (60p) may be impossible due to the actual senssor (hardware)

Many people have hacked firmware on their cameras to unlock some features, or get better control over software based featues and the likes...

The CMOS in the 5DII is not the latest generation of CMOS as it only uses low seperation cmos lenses on the cmos sensor, as oppose to "GAPLESS"

I would save my cash if i just want video, and see if a 50DII is announced, as this is the closest model to the D90 in the canon range, and it would not take a great deal for them to add a video feature...

[joe 1008]

Last night I watched a handheld shot of the 5D, pumping autoexposure, terribly shaky and so on. The good thing: Rolling Shutter seems to be much less than with the D90! Will try to find the link again...

Here it is: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-16717-EOS+Canon+5D+Mark+II+HANDS+ON+with+Video+&+Pictures+Sample!!!.html

though it was posted somewhere else already... Thank you, Ando!

[dual]

Thanks Joe 1008. This seems to be the first footage that shows the 5ds rolling shutter performance. And it appears to be absolutely outstanding. I ordered my 5d on wednesday. Now it's time to wait.

The rolling shutter is also visible during the highway scene released by Canon. During the last 4 or 5 frames the camera seems to get unmounted and the picture starts wobbling, top and bottom part seperately. The effect seems much stronger to me than in the video you posted though.

[dual]

In that video I noticed there's another canon video running on the screen in the background. It looks like a forest that's shot from within a driving car. Logically such a shot would totally reveal the rolling shutter issues. Hm... The Canon rep in the video seems happy though. Maybe they wanna prove that rolling shutter isn't a big issue on their 5d, similar to the red which also uses a cmos.

[rawfa]

pour the gas all you want, zak's shooting with the d90. i'll be shooting with either the d90 or (if the rolling shutter is less on the canon) the canon 5d mark ii shortly. laugh, mock, ridicule at will. the tools are here. some are embracing; some are whining. i'd rather be one forging ahead.

Just ask Zak to try to re-shoot "I f***ing hate you" with the D90. I'd love to see all those cool shaky camera moves he did through the distorted eyes of the D90. It would probably be like viewing "I f***ing hate you" through the eyes of Hunter S. Thompson.

[rawfa]

I'd rather shoot 24p (of 25p for that matter) than 30p any day of the week, but I really think that the issue here is rolling shutter and nothing else. If you shoot 30p the audience might be bummed for the first 5 minutes or so after your movie starts, but once they get into the storyline they'll forget about it. You can shoot your story with a cell phone, it's your material that will decide if it's good or not. Of course shooting 24p (25p) will be better, but not being able to do so should not stop anybody.

[rosebud]

I downloaded unaltered video clips from this link. Check it out yourself: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkii.asp

This tells the real story:
After it downloaded, I imported into FCP and took a look at the specs of the clips: H264, 30fps (not 29.97), 4.8MB/sec. Not good. Compare that data rate to that of the HMC150 at 1080/29.97 = 17.1MB/sec.

It's nice to dream, but this isn't what people are hoping for.

[Chris_TC]

Uhm, 4.8 MB/sec is almost 40 MBit/sec. This is more than enough to do extensive post on the clips.

[ando]

the issue with the h264 codec is that it's a killer to color correction. you may not see ruined details but altering colors will reveal banding pretty quick. but that won't be such an issue for many people

what i didn't like in those samples was that they're not that sharp. the bird shows a strong sharpening halo around its body. that look is already sharpened in-camera so i'd like to know how it really looks without additional sharpening.

i think you need to downsize to maybe 720p to get better detail

[Madmanden]

the issue with the h264 codec is that it's a killer to color correction. you may not see ruined details but altering colors will reveal banding pretty quick. but that won't be such an issue for many people

what i didn't like in those samples was that they're not that sharp. the bird shows a strong sharpening halo around its body. that look is already sharpened in-camera so i'd like to know how it really looks without additional sharpening.

i think you need to downsize to maybe 720p to get better detail
For less sharpening, couldn't you use the Canon equivalent of picture styles (assuming it has that feature)?

[ando]

if i open the samples with GSpot i get ~40mbps and a frame quality of ~0.6
the d90 samples show a frame quality of 0.9

what's this frame quality? i've searched on google but i don't get it

[ando]

For less sharpening, couldn't you use the Canon equivalent of picture styles (assuming it has that feature)?

canon has a sort of pictures stiles but without exposure curves (just the 1d/1ds have curves). there is no mention on the web about curves on 5dmk2 so i guess it hasn't

that's not my point. i'm talking about the samples they posted. i can't evaluate sharpness 'cause i know it has a high sharpen applied. that was the idea.

we'll see late november early december but until then...

[Rubbersquare]

Can you vimeo it, Rubber?

it's only 8 seconds from the beginning. downsampled to 720p and converted from 30fps to 24fps in Final Cut.

http://vimeo.com/1767146

it's subtle, but definitely think it could work. tough to tell which such limited motion in their samples.

[dual]

Come on guys. Filmlook is not about 24p. It's about a bunch of other things. And if you need it so badly just get the European model with 25p.

[Madmanden]

Come on guys. Filmlook is not about 24p. It's about a bunch of other things. And if you need it so badly just get the European model with 25p.
Content aside (set quality, acting, good sound etc.), yes 24P is the 'film look'. That's why it's so craved and why camcorders like the DVX100 got so popular. It's only few years ago you couldn't get that look with consumer cams.

I hope the PAL version has 25P, but I wouldn't bet on it. As far as I remember, the P&S cameras sold here also shoot 30P like in the US.

[Chris_TC]

What's real funny about this 30p issue is that Blu-ray doesn't even support 1080p30. You'll have to convert to 1080i60.