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philip bloom
09-15-2008, 02:50 PM
It's no video camera replacement at all. The rolling shutter is atrocious and the limitations are many, but treat it right and you can get nice pics out it. Very compressed though.

Take a look here for a short overvew and a video of some shots I did.

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2008/09/15/nikon-d90/

So it is far from the death of 35mm adaptors and video cameras but it is certainly a step in the right direction. It is capable of very nice pics if you know it's limitations.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 02:56 PM
Phillip, you put in your write up "5min max due to overheat issue". Did you experience this? If not, why did you put it in there? Few others have shot for hours on end and it felt warm, but nothing overheating.

You also have "cons" but no "pros"?

Edit: nevermind, seen it says plusses.

Daryl Auguste
09-15-2008, 02:57 PM
I didn't expect a review as you haven't been active in the discussion but I'm really glad to here about this review. Reading...

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 02:58 PM
Phillip, you put in your write up "5min max due to overheat issue". Did you experience this? If not, why did you put it in there? Few others have shot for hours on end and it felt warm, but nothing overheating.

You also have "cons" but no "pros"?

I was told by Nikon tech that 5 minute limit was put in to protect sensor from overheating. Not tax issues or anything, simply to protect it and be on the safe side.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 03:00 PM
And another guy on the board said he asked the same question to a Nikon rep at the expo in china and it was just due to file size limit, not overheating issue.

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 03:02 PM
Oh well. There is a limit for whatever reason so it is a negative aspect.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 03:02 PM
I suppose it's only a negative aspect one what you're shooting.

Drew Ott
09-15-2008, 03:03 PM
Nice footage.

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 03:08 PM
Nice footage.

cheers, it was REALLY fiddly to use. I still recommend a decent tripod like a miller ds10 with a nice fluid head. A stills tripod just won't cut it really!

stoiqa
09-15-2008, 03:13 PM
Very nice stuff Philip.What was your feel in using a vdslr to shoot video?
Was it strange that people were not staring at your equipment:)? (compared with ex3 and Letus)
You forgot to lock the AE-L in a few scenes:engel017:... happens to me all the time...:beer:

PS:When we`ll have the next assignment for PB Film Festival?

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 03:18 PM
Very soon. Am off to Alberta, Canada on Wednesday for two weeks will devise it whilst there!

It was my first play with it so not used to the exposure lock i pressed it but it didn't seem to make that much difference.

As it stands it is no way replacing my ex3 with or without the ultimate, but it is a nice additional tool in the arsenal and great for taking on holiday!!

f64manray
09-15-2008, 03:19 PM
It's no video camera replacement at all.

It seems like the test footage you posted completely contradicts that statement.

stoiqa
09-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Very soon. Am off to Alberta, Canada on Wednesday for two weeks will devise it whilst there!

It was my first play with it so not used to the exposure lock i pressed it but it didn't seem to make that much difference.

As it stands it is no way replacing my ex3 with or without the ultimate, but it is a nice additional tool in the arsenal and great for taking on holiday!!

Glad you like it.Keep us posted.

To set your camera for AE-L (hold): Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > f (controls) >> Assign AE-L/AF-L Button > Ae lock (hold) > Ok

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 03:22 PM
It seems like the test footage you posted completely contradicts that statement.

not really. You look at it and the compression is very high, the rolling shutter is unusable for fast movement, the manual controls are lacking. I got nice footage but I would have got much nicer footage had I used a video camera with 35mm adaptor. BUT it is a seriously good camera and this tech has enormous potential that I believe will change things forever.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 04:20 PM
Phillip, how much more money would've you had to spend to get better looking images with a camera and an adapter?

Don't take what I say offensively...I'm not trying to come off as rude.

jedbarish
09-15-2008, 08:22 PM
Any idea how we could record audio with the camera instead bulky equipment for audio recording?

Joseph Stunzi
09-15-2008, 08:28 PM
Jed.
Right now the only low-cost solution is to use a field recorder like the Samson Zoom H-2 or H-4. They have inputs for 1/4" XLR and what not as well as a built in mic. People use these for wedding videography and other unique uses as well.

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 10:22 PM
Phillip, how much more money would've you had to spend to get better looking images with a camera and an adapter?

Don't take what I say offensively...I'm not trying to come off as rude.

a lot more. But I would not shoot any paid gig with this and that is what is important. i am a professional and currently the practicality and results from the camera despite being impressive for what it is cannot replace a proper camera. No way broadcasters would accept it or clients.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 10:31 PM
I will prove otherwise with your last statement about clients.
But again, your clients may be BMW, mine might be different.

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 10:35 PM
Please do,

I am not trying to be negative I am trying to be realistic. Do you actually have one? Because until you do it's difficult to make a statement like you say.

I know that none of my broadcast clients would accept it 100%. For anyone to think this is a video camera replacement they will be disappointed. But it was never designed to be!!

This is my opinion as a working DP. Feel free to disagree and I hope you get work with it!

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Lets try to look at each others view here. There are different types of clients different types of broadcast work. No, this isn't going to shoot Monday night football. This isn't going to do the next commercial for Pepsi. But yeah, depending on your clients and the "type" of work they need, it probably would work. Only 10million people world wide actually own an HDTV 45% of those actually have an HD signal. So a lot of work is going to be output to SD. I'd really love to see Joe Moe on the street look at 2 videos shot from the D90 and prosumer camera and be able to point out the difference in PQ...and I said "Joe Moe" not a seasoned DP that can tell the difference by touching the screen.

Boss at work got one and I played with it. Skew is wild, can't change shutter like you could on a prosumer camera. The compression isn't great, but in the end "normal" people can't tell a difference.

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Lets try to look at each others view here. There are different types of clients different types of broadcast work. No, this isn't going to shoot Monday night football. This isn't going to do the next commercial for Pepsi. But yeah, depending on your clients and the "type" of work they need, it probably would work. Only 10million people world wide actually own an HDTV 45% of those actually have an HD signal. So a lot of work is going to be output to SD. I'd really love to see Joe Moe on the street look at 2 videos shot from the D90 and prosumer camera and be able to point out the difference in PQ...and I said "Joe Moe" not a seasoned DP that can tell the difference by touching the screen.

I do...but answer me Car3o. Do you own one yet?

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 11:00 PM
I'm waiting for the body to come out. No point in getting the lens with it when i'm not going to use it. I edited that last part, sorry.

I don't have to own one to see and hear all it's limtations. I did however get to hold it and get the feel for it. I liked it. I know I could do something more than just film flowers and little kids playing

philip bloom
09-15-2008, 11:04 PM
I look forward to seeing your work with it. good luck, as i said, it is a sod to use! but rewarding

Joseph Stunzi
09-15-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm with Philip on this one. Until you've actually extensively played with one... you can't really say how valuable a tool it is. Fiddling with your bosses new toy isn't quite the same thing... but if it inspired you to go out and make a movie. Go for it!

Companies are embracing this new idea. For instance, Zacuto just released a version of their baseplate for smaller cameras like the D90 and the si-2k. (see here (http://zacuto.zenfolio.com/p408746338/h2b63f750#h2b63f750)) So you can definitely shouldermount that baby now!

Definitely wait on your lenses. Get the best ones you can afford!



However, keep in mind that most clients aren't going to accept the D90 or similar cameras for quite some time. It's hard enough for some to accept a smaller camera like an HVX or a EX1. You need to figure out your audio option and what you're going to do for fast motion. After that you're golden.

Park Edwards
09-15-2008, 11:54 PM
edit: nevermind...

philip bloom
09-16-2008, 12:33 AM
I know I could do something more than just film flowers and little kids playing

Most of us can but it is always worth listening to advice from people with experience without dismissing that advice straight away. That is why we are on this forum for help, discussion and advice. I hope you do get paid work with it but please don't compare it to an ex1/ letus type set up. They are miles apart and don't compare based upon a flash compressed demo video where I edited out most of the flaws!!

ando
09-16-2008, 05:47 AM
the thing is as good or bad the video is on d90 nikon's target wasn't video.
they moved from the ccd in d80 to cmos in d90. that's just for the better photography.
keeping a ccd would have 0 rolling shutter. a strong point for video. but they didn't.

i think they're just testing the public. video it's not a gimmick feature to have, like some here say. hardware had to be designed that way. that's why until now there was no video on dslr cameras, and liveview is from 2006. not exactly new. so nikon seems to be going in the direction of video.

probably higher priced cameras in the future will have better video modes, but on d90 is as good as it gets. more cpu power and more readout channels are required. the price had to stay in order to be a competitive dslr.

i don't expect less rolling shutter without any totally new hardware trick, like a global shutter.
you can't save a 12mp sensor as fast as you save 3x 1mp cmos in sony's cameras, or a single 3mp cmos. Red is 20k and still has rolling, if you get my point.

if the new 5d will have video, at its supposed 24mp (we'll find out in a day or two) it will have horrible rolling. unless it's cropped or other innovative hardware components were used.

in the end d90 remains a vey good dslr. it has a bonus, but nikon never intended to alter any photographic part to just to get better video.
you can make nice movies with it, i'm sure of that. many people will be able to do lots more with a lot less money.

Philip thought the same "Pros: Great image considering the limiations, 35mm DOF, price. Superb DSLR. ".
in the meantime if olympus/panasonic put better video then very good. their target market is totally different. they don't have to be high-end as photography. if the 5d has better video good for canon too. the sad part is that the 50d doesn't so no video for at least 1 year from any canon under $1500.

what Philip failed to notice is the picture control with curves. i really hope other brands dslrs with video will allow curves. it's a very smart feature and almost "a must have". you can shoot raw for photos and not have it but with video it's a totally different thing.

kevm14
09-16-2008, 06:08 AM
How come you say you cannot adjust exposure? Can't you use AE-L then use easy exposure comp + or - ? I thought Kholi did this.

bearing
09-16-2008, 06:41 AM
He later said that he thought those settings do nothing.

ando
09-16-2008, 10:10 AM
hmmm the ae-l vs ae-l hold option

gotta hate the user manual not to know that.

philip bloom
09-16-2008, 10:46 AM
hmmm the ae-l vs ae-l hold option

gotta hate the user manual not to know that.

rushed out to try it. As I guy i always ignore the user manual until it is too late! :-)

Thebes
09-16-2008, 10:52 AM
How come you say you cannot adjust exposure? Can't you use AE-L then use easy exposure comp + or - ? I thought Kholi did this.

I have adjusted locked exposure while shooting by using a declicked iris on an old manual lens. It worked well, I'll see if I can get a sample up today.

I think its completely usable, in the right context, for actual work. I'm not a DOP, and am sort of a one man band, but for my work (soft adult / fetish), the quality completely obliterates anything that my niche's competition is doing.

Its not just the DOF, but also the color and dynamic range. As long as I pay attention to minimizing rolling shutter artifacts, I am fine. The compression issues become much less of an issue at even my top end delivery, 720p at 4.5mbps.

philip bloom
09-17-2008, 07:38 PM
did some shots in VERY low light with a manual f1.2 50mm nikon. WOW, now this is interesting, the low light is astounding!

MikeyPOTG
09-17-2008, 07:51 PM
did some shots in VERY low light with a manual f1.2 50mm nikon. WOW, now this is interesting, the low light is astounding!

Oh, I'd love to see some of the footage with that lens. I'm checking out your site now, but for some reason it times out when I try to load the video. Is there any chance you can put it on vimeo?

Anyway, thanks for the input. I'm still heavily on the fence. Went to a Best Buy today, held it for a few mins and fought hard to not buy it and think about my car payments, lol. ...but maybe I'll stop by again tomorrow, hah.

philip bloom
09-17-2008, 07:54 PM
yeah exposure room is down at the moment. I haven't done enough with the 1.2 yet but will be doing some shots with my zeiss f1.4 50 and 85mm over next few days at night

stoiqa
09-17-2008, 08:41 PM
Thought you said, zeiss is a no go...see if you can up` on vimeo (500mb limit).

I`m waiting for 80mm Mamiya by this weekend...curious to see how it handles .:)

philip bloom
09-17-2008, 08:42 PM
Thought you said, zeiss is a no go...see if you can up` on vimeo (500mb limit).

I`m waiting for 80mm Mamiya by this weekend...curious to see how it handles .:)

my mistake. You need to be in full manual mode and it works a treat!

John Sandel
09-17-2008, 10:26 PM
Philip, in your excitement over the D90's imagery, would you describe your process to control:

- aperture
- shutter
- ISO

?

It would be useful to hear the steps you follow to approximate manual changes in these functions.

I can't find any systematic descriptions outside Kholi Hicks's posts. A little triangulation on processes, for objectivity/confirmation, will go a long way.

Thanks in advance.

kevm14
09-18-2008, 06:05 AM
I have adjusted locked exposure while shooting by using a declicked iris on an old manual lens. It worked well, I'll see if I can get a sample up today.

You should also be able to adjust it electronically either through regular exposure comp or easy exposure comp. The problem is it changes ISO AND shutter and you can't directly control which. Hopefully Kholi will chime in.

Krummi
09-18-2008, 10:55 AM
I'm going to allow myself to repost a reply to another thread. It is also relevant here, although in a little bit edited form:

The video mode in these DSLRS is really nothing more than a novelty add-on. Sure, you are getting awesome dynamic range, cool DOF effects, a lot of lens options and amazing low light quality.

But all that does not a movie making machine make.

Why not? A couple of reasons:

a) "crippled" functions, including automatic shutter, no 24p (and yes, 24p matters and will keep mattering long after film is gone, because we are ALL programmed to know that this is how MOVIES look!), automatic exposure (I think), limited recording time, limited recording format and so on.

more importantly:

b) It's a DSLR with movie recording capabilities. It's movie mode may be awesome in many core ways, but it's still a DSLR. After having shot with a lot of different SLRs and Video cameras (currently own a Nikon D200 and Sony PMW-EX1 and a whole Brevis kit) I simply cannot imagine shooting a whole narrative piece on a DSLR with an automatic shutter, automatic exposure, having hassles with sound recording, codecs, recording times and what not. You have to contend with a DSLR form factor, a DSLR button layout, menu access. It's just not the same animal.

When I upgraded my Nikon D50 to my current D200 a while back it wasn't because the pictures were lacking. The D50 was shooting beautiful pictures until the day I sold it. No, it was because of form and functionality. I had just started shooting commercially and was really starting to feel the D50's lack of on-body controls and advanced functions like DOF preview and commander mode for remote flash.

The point being. The image quality the D200 produces isn't really any different than the D50 unless you put it under a microscope. What is different is with what ease I can do what I need to do as fast and efficiently as possible

Does anyone remember the South Park episode where Mr. Garrison invents the worlds best, most economic vehicle....but to operate it you basically had to stick a dildo into your ass and mouth a stroke a couple of phalicshaped things.

I'm not saying that the DSLR movie modes are that bad, but it's in the same category.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool. It's a very cool feature on a, probably, pretty amazing digital photographic camera. For a do-it-yourself enthusiast who has money laying around, it's a dream gadget. I just don't think it's going to be very practical, or very popular, for serious Videography and/or filmmaking. It might catch on in the wedding business, but crippled recording times are still going to be a problem there.

This is probably going to be as good as it gets from Canon. They have a huge Video department to protect and they will not cripple themselves. They never have and won't start now. Nikon, on the other hand, has no such qualms. The best thing that can come from this is that Nikon listens to all this enthusiasm and makes a REAL Nikon mounted S35mm sensored VIDEO camera.

Thebes
09-18-2008, 12:45 PM
a) "crippled" functions, including automatic shutter, no 24p (and yes, 24p matters and will keep mattering long after film is gone, because we are ALL programmed to know that this is how MOVIES look!), automatic exposure (I think), limited recording time, limited recording format and so on.


Uhm. The D90 does 24p. The Canon does 30p and is not released yet.

I think a trick can be worked out to at least predict ISO and shutter, iris is easy enough to control. Exposure can be locked, so as long as shutter is predictable we have some control. I want use a gray-card and meter, then test the resulting footage to estimate ISO and measure shutter.

BTW, someone had mentioned adjusting exposure or iris on the camera... can't do it while exposure is locked and you're recording, unless there is some trick I need to know. Of course, that would just make the exposure change jerky anyway and making the change while shooting would probably shake the camera even on a tripod. With proper holding of the D-SLR and old manual lenses I can adjust my declicked iris while shooting, without shaking the camera and reasonably smoothly.

Krummi
09-19-2008, 12:55 AM
yeah, the 24p part was actually just aimed at the 5D...But thank you for making my whole point. If you are using something in a professional capacity you don't want to, or have time to, pull of some tricks just to do something that basically all motion recording devices have done for the last decades...

like I said, it's a cool feature, but it's really very flawed with regards to professional workflow..

philip bloom
09-22-2008, 06:46 AM
am having to talk so many people out of buying this camera as a video camera replacement. It really isn't! One day a model will be!

John Caballero
09-22-2008, 07:19 AM
am having to talk so many people out of buying this camera as a video camera replacement. It really isn't! One day a model will be!

That is so true. For a moment we had some hopes but... Nikon am sure will keep working at it. For me at least it will work as a great still photo camera. I will make back my investement shorthly thru photos. But for video, only an experimental tool at best.