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James Mel
09-13-2008, 05:52 PM
Got the D90! But the panning wobble test didn't go so well.

Love this camera, the video isn't bad as long as you make sure that you don't move, or the subject doesn't move, as the skew is worse than anything I have seen.


Here is my test:

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

Aroon_Narayanan
09-13-2008, 06:17 PM
Holy Rolling Shutter, Batman!


(that's the most rolling shutter artifacting I've ever seen, too.)

Park Edwards
09-13-2008, 06:22 PM
if your subject doesn't move? I've seen plenty of footage where the subject is moving and rolling shutter isn't an issue. And seen some good handheld footage where rolling shutter isn't an issue. You really have to be real delicate with it and avoid quick panning.

Matthew Bennett
09-13-2008, 06:42 PM
That was a serious jiggle party.

James Mel
09-13-2008, 07:17 PM
if your subject doesn't move? I've seen plenty of footage where the subject is moving and rolling shutter isn't an issue. And seen some good handheld footage where rolling shutter isn't an issue. You really have to be real delicate with it and avoid quick panning.

I had pretty high expectations of using this to shoot a movie with, but I am starting to think this is more like just a nicer version of a movie mode on a point and shoot. A point and shoot movie mode with sexy shallow depth of field!

Still loving this camera, but it's not going to put my DVX orHVX in the closet anytime soon.

Matthew Bennett
09-13-2008, 08:07 PM
Jim Jannard posted a link to the above video on the RED forum as an example of how terrible the skew on the D90 is.

Congratulations, you've become the international poster boy for 'Jello'

xxxxx1
09-13-2008, 08:13 PM
Just to remind you, the free Deshaker virtualdub plugin is pretty effective at rolling shutter suppression for this type of pan.
http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm

examples
pre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y484jV_2IfA&fmt=6
post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye3Ag8wTzvg&fmt=6

Drew Ott
09-13-2008, 08:18 PM
Jim Jannard posted a link to the above video on the RED forum as an example of how terrible the skew on the D90 is.

Congratulations, you've become the international poster boy for 'Jello'

I don't understand why he would do that. Is it because the D90 (and future versions of DSLRs with video) is his competition?

Jarred Land
09-13-2008, 08:32 PM
Just to remind you, the free Deshaker virtualdub plugin is pretty effective at rolling shutter suppression for this type of pan.
http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm

examples
pre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y484jV_2IfA&fmt=6
post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye3Ag8wTzvg&fmt=6

your kidding right?

Park Edwards
09-13-2008, 08:39 PM
I had pretty high expectations of using this to shoot a movie with, but I am starting to think this is more like just a nicer version of a movie mode on a point and shoot. A point and shoot movie mode with sexy shallow depth of field!

Still loving this camera, but it's not going to put my DVX orHVX in the closet anytime soon.

I guess it depends on what movies you'd want to film. Garden State, Clerks, Shop Girl, Juno, all are movies that don't use a lot of panning and are basic static shots.

Traffic, Bourne trilogy, Minority Report....no, you'd be wasting your time. That's even if the audience can even pick up on rolling shutter. 4/5 people, who don't know anything about the tech sides of these videos never even picked up on rolling shutter issue. They simply said, "looks cool".

PenGun
09-13-2008, 08:48 PM
Got the D90! But the panning wobble test didn't go so well.

Love this camera, the video isn't bad as long as you make sure that you don't move, or the subject doesn't move, as the skew is worse than anything I have seen.


Here is my test:

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

Is that with the VR lens? I wonder if some of this might be the VR stuff fighting for control.

The manual lens works better it seems.

ESTEBEVERDE
09-13-2008, 09:41 PM
Just to remind you, the free Deshaker virtualdub plugin is pretty effective at rolling shutter suppression for this type of pan.
http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm

examples
pre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y484jV_2IfA&fmt=6
post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye3Ag8wTzvg&fmt=6


Horrible.

Solution.

Don't us the D90 for those type of shots. :beer:

John Caballero
09-13-2008, 09:59 PM
I've done it and it works. You can shoot footage handeheld that does't wooble. I've posted a few samples that are in the Vimeo D90 Channel.

Rule 1: You have to hold the camera extremely tight with your right hand and equally tight with your left, sort of pushing towards the lens while you focus. You have to squeeze it.
Rule 2: Get a foot hold and don't SHAKE the camera at all. Not even for a second.
Rule 3: Don't tip the camera even for a second. Tilting it back and forth even the slightest creates that rippled looking image from top to bottom.
Rule 3: When you pan do it firmly, not pushing the camera along suddenly. The camera needs to sort of flow with the image and stop very smoothly.

Again, while you move the camera you sort of have to feel like you are lifting the image and moving it along as if you were carrying a glass of water or jello and did not want it to ripple or shake while it glides. If you start moving the camera left and right up and down suddenly you are going to get the image you deserve for doing that.
Keep on trying this and practicing. Make it your goal to shoot handheld without wobbling. If you are not able to just get a tripod. With a nice smooth head, panning and moving up and down is a breeze.

Thebes
09-13-2008, 11:34 PM
For hand-held I have some decent shots, its important to hold the camera well, like an old school manual focus slr should be held. I pushed firmly away with the strap providing tension. Then I basically concentrated on shaking it as little as possible- like a glass filled to the brim than I don't want to spill. Proper footing, etc, is important too.

Panning on a tripod, as long as I keep the speed sane, has not been an issue. There is a certain point where the skew becomes very noticable, its almost like crossing a threshold. Remember that some film cameras had a horizontal rolling shutter too... use a very gentle hand in panning and you'll be fine.

I've had considerable motion without the rolling shutter artifacts ruining it. Again, don't push it and its fine.

The worst part is the horrid Jello-Vision you get if you shake the camera at all.

theabsurdman
09-14-2008, 02:11 AM
your kidding right?

care to elaborate on that?

Matthew Bennett
09-14-2008, 08:24 AM
The rolling shutter looks like 'Operator Shake' to ANY LAYPERSON, and probably to a lot of video professionals, who haven't read an article on CCD vs. CMOS imaging.

That said, if you know about it, and you are sitting twenty inches away from your computer monitor, its pretty ugly. The wobble is VERY EASY to create due to the SLIGHTEST SHAKES in your operating. I had the camera on a tripod, and created a wobble by simply hitting the record button.

I'll post the above link in the "WORST IMAGES" thread.

stoiqa
09-14-2008, 09:11 AM
Guys,please note that his is only the beginning of VDSLR. As many of us mentioned,the camera part comes free...you might consider it "Nikon testing the waters"

I paid for this camera the same amount of money I paid for my glass vibrating Letus35...which is a wonderful tool...but again is just a motor vibrating a diffuser glass at a certain speed to a 1/3 ccd sensor.

Will I sell my JVC100 and Letus35 at this point....not yet.Is this gonna expand my fields of creativity,make me shoot more, and like what I see...hell yes.

Let`s hope that other manufactures are going to embrace the VDSLR idea,and things will only get better FOR US.

Remember,keep it steady,put a good glass on it,use a steadycam if you need to move and no crazy,hectic pans...and you`ll be just fine.

We are 2000 profesionals,we know how to find the flaws in things,but is viewer opinion,and story behind that counts.

This is just a brush that can be used for certain painting styles....will be nice to see painters to using just one brush...that will be a boring art:beer:

Chris_TC
09-14-2008, 11:01 AM
We have seen numerous hand-held clips by now that had little to no wobble. Proper handling and a somewhat "flowy" motion seems to work around this limitation quite effectively.

As far as leaning walls go, I really don't see this as a big deal. Motion pictures shot in interiors often have noticeably bulging walls due to lens distortion, any viewer ever complain about that?
Anamorphic motion pictures sport wide blue streaks whenever there's a light source in the frame, anybody ever complain? No, it looks kinda cool.

Leaning walls are simply an artifact that don't matter much. Fast pans are motion blurred as hell anyway.
Wobble on the other hand is ugly and needs to be avoided. I'm sure it's not that hard. Start by locking both your upper arms to your torso instead of holding the camera out in front of you like a point & shoot tourist. Add VR or a stabilization rig if needed.

Rolly
09-14-2008, 11:41 AM
I pushed firmly away with the strap providing tension.

That's exactly the way I used it yesterday for my clip and without any practice I think it worked very well. :beer:

theabsurdman
09-14-2008, 03:03 PM
why not just apply a video filter like deshaker to the wobblier shots?
it works by rotating the skewed frames as necessary and filling-in the gaps using previous/ next frames.

rawfa
09-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Oh my god! That is beyond unbelievable. You guys are a bunch of dare devils to go for a camera like this. For me it just sounds like one limitation after another and a whole lot of compromise. Specially when it's just basic logic that from now on things are just going to get better and better, and the competition is already announcing that what's ahead is going to be way better than this.

Chris_TC
09-15-2008, 03:12 PM
Yeah, so please show some video you've shot with those announced products. I'm curious. Now is now and then is then.

Jannard
09-15-2008, 10:15 PM
why not just apply a video filter like deshaker to the wobblier shots?
it works by rotating the skewed frames as necessary and filling-in the gaps using previous/ next frames.

I have been watching this thread with interest. If you want to capture motion... you don't want to have to worry about how you shoot. If you are nervous about how to hold the camera, you have the wrong camera.

Don't buy a RED. That should end the "this is against everything and for RED" complaint.

Buy an HVX. Or a DVX. Or any real camera designed to shoot motion. But don't settle for bubble-gum skew. Do not buy this camera for its video capabilities. Buy it for it's still abilities.

There is no question that the future of still cameras includes video... and visa-versa. But this camera is not it. Software to "fix" jelly bean skew is not the answer. That is like putting a band-aid on a heart attack.

The D90 is a quite capable consumer camera. Really. But this attempt at motion is a disaster. Really. If you have to worry about how you hold a camera when shooting motion, you have the wrong camera. And if you say things like... how about fixing it with this software... good luck.

Sony, Panasonic and others make good motion cameras with no "jelly-bean skew". Use them. But do not expect this camera to give you professional, prosumer, or even consumer results for motion.

My best,

Jim

rawfa
09-15-2008, 10:27 PM
I think Jannard has said it all...

....now, any dates and/or specs for the Red DSLR? :)