Micro four thirds shooting video!

[rawfa]

Check it out! Panasonic has announce the first micro four thirds slr. The first model doesn't shoot video but 2 more will be anounce that DO SHOOT! This is awesome!

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/First-Micro-Four-Thirds-Camera-Announced-18986.htm

Also, check it out some cool photos (awesome LCD solution for video shooting!)

http://www.engadget.com/photos/panasonics-lumix-g1-worlds-first-micro-four-thirds-camera/1032659/

Man, it would be truly amazing if this could shoot some kick ass video with full manual control.

******UPDATE*****PANASONIC WILL INTRODUCE A MICRO FOUR THIRDS THAT DOES SHOOT PROGRESSIVE HD VIDEO*****IT'S NOT THE G1 THOUGH****

[Steve Castle]

Glad to see this, the micro-four-thirds page has been promoting high-quality video-mode as a benefit ("Benefit 2" to be exact). In many ways, the early indication is that the implementation is better suited for video-mode then the D90's (we'll have to wait and see if this is true or not).

http://www.four-thirds.org/jp/microft/index.html
http://panasonic.jp/dc/g1/high_quality.html

The DMC-G1 seems to be an indication of this even though it doesn't have HD-video recording (its only used for the electronic-view finder and LCD screen at this point).

Dpreview:
"The 4/3-type 12.1-megapixel Live MOS sensor featured in the DMC-G1 offers the best of both worlds – the superior image quality of a CCD sensor, and the lower power consumption of a CMOS sensor. New technology that makes it possible to read 4 channels of data simultaneously also helps the G1 deliver 60 frames-per-second Full-time Live View images, while faithfully reproducing high-resolution images with fine detail and rich gradation. . . resulting in the 1.44 million-dot equivalent sharp clear images at 60 fps. The Venus Engine HD also supports an extensive range of functions, including HDMI output." (1.44 million-dot is around 800x600.)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091202panasonic_DMC_G1.asp

[ando]

the back LCD is crappy resolution
according to dpreview it's "The large 3.0-inch free-angle LCD, with its 100% field of view and sharp 460,000-dot resolution"

nikon and probably the latest canon 50d have ~960k dots resulting in 640x480 res on a new stripe array
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page3.asp

there is no micro camera announced with video. it's your speculation it may have in the future but i really doubt it. olympus were the first to have liveview, in early 2006 i think. why such long time without video if it's all that simple for them?

also its half size sensor should be more in the camcorder area than aps-c and full frame sizes. that's why oly quit dslr business and does p&s DMC-G1 now. if they do video with their noisy sensor it'll be ugly looking


so your post should change to micro DOESN'T shoot video

[Chris_TC]

This is not going to give you 35mm depth of field, and this type of camera seems too tiny for my liking anyway.
Add to that the fact that I wouldn't use it for photography, and I'd be back to using two pieces of equipment instead of one. Pointless.

[buildyo]

The first model doesn't shoot video but 2 more will be announced that DO SHOOT!

In 2008? Where did you get this info?

[rawfa]

"While the format will allow future cameras with video recording, the G1 does not include a movie mode". Pana is supposed to introduce new cameras at Photokina, so there might be a surprise there. Like the D90, maybe this is far from perfect, but it's also a sign of times to come.
As for this camera being "pointless" for photography I think you should really do some research as to why a lot (I mean A LOT of people) won't move to SLR...size! A LOT of people would kill to have a small portable camera that allows them different lenses and SLR quality. Again I must go back to this may not be the perfect solution but it's a sign of things to come. All hail micro four thirds!

[rawfa]

In 2008? Where did you get this info?

I read it on a photography magazine while waiting for my turn on a photography store.

[ando]

micro is a good replacement for expensive p&s cameras like G9. olympus' sales are low. they don't make a competitive dslr at all.
moving to this new market will save them for as long as no one else is interested in this market.

but it's not a digital rangefinder. it's too expensive for mass market and also not good for photojournalism or other potential usage (very few lenses, ugly iso, low fps, cheap slow AF system compared to dslr AF, the lack of a metering sensor will be a big problem and so on).

i'm sure it'll sell as good as G9 did, or fuji s100fs, but not much more. low end dslrs won't be affected by this.

[Chris_TC]

As for this camera being "pointless" for photography I think you should really do some research as to why a lot (I mean A LOT of people) won't move to SLR...size! A LOT of people would kill to have a small portable camera that allows them different lenses and SLR quality. Again I must go back to this may not be the perfect solution but it's a sign of things to come. All hail micro four thirds!
I didn't mean pointless in general. Point and shoot cameras with video mode aren't pointless either. Millions of people use them every day. But that doesn't make these devices alternatives to the D90.

[kevm14]

The only positive I see here is the 60fps refresh which implies a faster rolling shutter. Other than that, I can't get all that excited about 4/3rds anything. But I'm biased.

[bearing]

(1.44 million-dot is around 800x600.)

No it's not, 800 x 600 is 0.48 Mpixel. They (or you) forgot one of those megapixels =).

1.44 Mpixel is 1600 x 900 in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

[ando]

The only positive I see hear is the 60fps refresh which implies a faster rolling shutter.

first thing to know is that olympus uses ccd, not cmos. no rolling issue if it'll do video.

the liveview video at something like 512 or 640 at most could be sampled by reading only some pixels from the sensor's rgbg bayer pattern.

it's also important to see how fast the live histogram gets refreshed
if it refreshes very fast, many times per second, then that's a good thing, if it refreshes 1x a second..... the camera will record video at 1fps

[Madmanden]

No it's not, 800 x 600 is 0.48 Mpixel. They (or you) forgot one of those megapixels =).
No, they use 0.48 Mpixel for each of the three channels. So it's 3 x 0.48 = 1.44 Mpixel. :)

[kevm14]

No it's not, 800 x 600 is 0.48 Mpixel. They (or you) forgot one of those megapixels =).

1.44 Mpixel is 1600 x 900 in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

Well a 60fps 1600x900 EVF is a big improvement over past ones. But I still don't know if you can ever truly replace an optical viewfinder. It's probably at least decent though.

[kevm14]

first thing to know is that olympus uses ccd, not cmos. no rolling issue if it'll do video.

You sure? DPReview says CMOS and Panasonic says "Live MOS." Neither of those sound like CCD to me.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicG1/page3.asp

[buildyo]

Why do you complain? You'll get a RED ONE from Panasonic !!!!

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-SLR-Cameras/model.DMC-G1R_11002_7000000000000005702

:happy:

[ando]

i see now, i was reading quickly the dpreview news

"The 4/3-type 12.1-megapixel Live MOS sensor featured in the DMC-G1 offers the best of both worlds – the superior image quality of a CCD sensor, and the lower power consumption of a CMOS sensor."

so probably it's a tweaked ccd to use low power.

and the Electronic Viewfinder
"Live View Finder, resulting in the 1.44 million-dot"

"dot" is the keyword. a dot is a color dot, 3 dots RGB one next to another look like a pixel to human eye
it's not a 1.44mp image!!!!

the back LCD is 460,000 dots so you can imagine it's just a little better than any p&s screen you have. still more than twice lower than on current dslrs like D90
look at this pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicG1/page3.asp
you can clearly see it's low res. compare with 920k lcd like on d300 images, you can't see the pixels at all

why this thread?
it DOESN'T record video change the title man. it has nothing to do with video or D90 forum
if oly will record video sometime it'll get a special forum, until then.....

[bearing]

No, they use 0.48 Mpixel for each of the three channels. So it's 3 x 0.48 = 1.44 Mpixel. :)
That means the D90 is a 4 Mpixel still camera and a 0.3 MPixel video camera then. =)
EDIT: Forget about this, I didn't realize they were talking about the LCD screen. Thought it was a video mode, but it does not record video.

I agree with ando, this thread should not be in this forum, maybe in a news section if that exists.

[Steve Castle]

Personally, I can see the relevance of these other HD video dslr/evf cameras here being that they are direct competition to the D90, and many people are still sitting on the side-lines about the D90 waiting to see what the competition will be doing first this month at Photokina. I came here for D90 news but found this post intersting. But I can also see what others are saying about it belonging in the news forum.

Regardless, Panasonic has announced the HD video feature (probably be in camera released next year according to some news outlets). We have yet to hear what Olympus will be showing. What I found interesing was that Panasonic announced a lens in their release schedule with "HD" in their naming (14-140mm F4-5.6 HD). Perhaps a lens designed specifically for HD video? Maybe AF and other features designed with video features in mind? I don't know, pure speculation.

That means the D90 is a 4 Mpixel still camera and a 0.3 MPixel video camera then. =)
EDIT: Forget about this, I didn't realize they were talking about the LCD screen. Thought it was a video mode, but it does not record video.

I agree with ando, this thread should not be in this forum, maybe in a news section if that exists.


Perhaps, my wording may have been unclear from my previous post. My bad. I just cut and paste most of it. But here is how imaging-resource explains it.

"As befits its heritage in the high-end broadcast TV field, the Panasonic G1's EVF has impressive specs. It has unusually high resolution for a camera EVF, displaying 800x600 (SVGA resolution) full-color pixels. (A total of 480,000 full-color pixels.) Panasonic equates this with 1.44 million dots in a conventional display, as most displays would need three separate dots for each full-color pixel. In practice, the effective perceptual equivalent of 480,000 full-color pixels is more like 960,000 RGB dots, but the fact remains that this is a very high-resolution, very smooth-looking display. As noted above, the G1's EVF also refreshes at 60 frames/second, so there's very little flicker or tearing with moving subjects."

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCG1/DMCG1A.HTM

[ando]

interesting. imaging-resource people as usual have detailed stuff

what's a killer is the price. according to CNET it'll be available in november at around $800. that's a big joke
it's not worth more than $5-600 kit with a very good lens. you don't get enough stuff to upgrade from either. very few lenses at unknown prices, the oly idiotic flash system...

[murcott]

hmmm, on the website is says..

"1920 x 1080-pixel HD (high-definition) photo recording
The G1 shoots wide-screen, 16:9, full-HD images. These images
are simply breathtaking when displayed on an HDTV, which
handles about four times the data of a standard-definition TV. Enjoy a whole new style of HDTV viewing with family and friends"...

that kinda sounds like video recording to me. "photo recording". It also mentions QuickTime Motion JPEG...

[ando]

hmmm, on the website is says..

"1920 x 1080-pixel HD (high-definition) photo recording
The G1 shoots wide-screen, 16:9, full-HD images. These images
are simply breathtaking when displayed on an HDTV, which
handles about four times the data of a standard-definition TV. Enjoy a whole new style of HDTV viewing with family and friends"...

that kinda sounds like video recording to me. "photo recording". It also mentions QuickTime Motion JPEG...

there is no mention here about a movie recording feature, at what resolution and what fps

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-Cameras/model.DMC-G1R.S_11002_7000000000000005702#tabsection

if it does video indeed, the lack of fps may indicate a low rate, like 15fps or something. or was left out and the marketing people messed with the press release. or they just hope to get it to work by november :D

no video menus either
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCG1/DMCG1MODES.HTM

the HD lens will be a single model in 2009. contrast focusing for pictures is limited in compatibility. only panasonic's lenses will surely AF

but at $800 you can get a D80 or canon 30D and maybe 40D's in the future. d40 and 400d are even cheaper. that doesn't sound like good thinking from panasonic. selling this like a midrange dslr and way above many olympus dslrs

[ESTEBEVERDE]

i see now, i was reading quickly the dpreview news

"The 4/3-type 12.1-megapixel Live MOS sensor featured in the DMC-G1 offers the best of both worlds – the superior image quality of a CCD sensor, and the lower power consumption of a CMOS sensor."

so probably it's a tweaked ccd to use low power.

and the Electronic Viewfinder
"Live View Finder, resulting in the 1.44 million-dot"

"dot" is the keyword. a dot is a color dot, 3 dots RGB one next to another look like a pixel to human eye
it's not a 1.44mp image!!!!

the back LCD is 460,000 dots so you can imagine it's just a little better than any p&s screen you have. still more than twice lower than on current dslrs like D90
look at this pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicG1/page3.asp
you can clearly see it's low res. compare with 920k lcd like on d300 images, you can't see the pixels at all

why this thread?
it DOESN'T record video change the title man. it has nothing to do with video or D90 forum
if oly will record video sometime it'll get a special forum, until then.....

No, it's probably their implementation of CMOS.

MOS is the operative word not CCD

[ekai]

Unfortunately this camera doesn't shoot video. I would like to see what kind of images you would get from a 4/3 senor.

It still has shallow dof, but compared to APS-C its about a one stop difference. So an image shot a F2.8 on 4/3 would look some what like an APS-C image shot at F4. Still good separation but would be easier to change or correct focus.

The flange distance of the normal 4/3 mount allows for a multitude of old manual lenses to be used with it. Much more than EOS, which will make lens acquisition cheaper (Konica lens etc). It's 2x crop would help alot with wildlife shooters as well.

The problems with 4/3 is it has problems with dynamic range and hi iso capabilities compared to APS-C. The 2x crop puts it at a disadvantage when using wide angles, you would be forced to use a 4/3 type lens designed for wide angle.

The 4/3 image itself would be a toss up. Some people like to shoot 16x9, I think the image size reminds me of old b&w movies, who knows you could be the next Kurosawa or Ford?:)

[rawfa]

As I see it I think this camera is a bit expensive (800$ for the body only) if you have in mind that you can get a D90 for 200$ dollars more. Also have in mind that more "serious compacts" such as the G9, the LX3 and the P6000 cost about 500$. They have to be very careful so this camera won't be put on a limbo that is too far and too close from both worlds without actualy belonging to any of them.

[rawfa]

BTW, this thread SHOULD be moved to the photography corner...

[kevm14]

The problems with 4/3 is it has problems with dynamic range and hi iso capabilities compared to APS-C. The 2x crop puts it at a disadvantage when using wide angles, you would be forced to use a 4/3 type lens designed for wide angle.

Right, 4/3 is behind the best APS-C sensors and the camera doesn't even benefit from one of the advantages of a SLR - fast phase detect AF. With contrast detect (and I highly doubt it will be fast), the user gets the benefit of a small package (bigger than a P&S still), better IQ than their P&S (but not as good as APS-C) and missing several advantages of dSLRs that cost the same or less. On paper/in a vacuum, the move makes sense, but not in the current market environment.

[ando]

It still has shallow dof, but compared to APS-C its about a one stop difference.

don't know exactly how the difference is
but you can check it here

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

also D90 users could print a hypefocal table from there to have on the field when shooting video or landscapes

[Steve Castle]

hmmm, on the website is says..

"1920 x 1080-pixel HD (high-definition) photo recording
The G1 shoots wide-screen, 16:9, full-HD images. These images
are simply breathtaking when displayed on an HDTV, which
handles about four times the data of a standard-definition TV. Enjoy a whole new style of HDTV viewing with family and friends"...

that kinda sounds like video recording to me. "photo recording". It also mentions QuickTime Motion JPEG...

Those are for stills at the moment since the G1 can shoot stills in 16:9 aspect ratio. It seems to me that these micro 4/3rds sensors are designed from the ground-up for video (and of course live-view).

What I find personally interesting is the philosophical differences between how the D90 handles video and how these micro-4/3rds camera. The D90 at its core is still a still-photography camera that takes videos, and thera are compromises. These m43 cameras are live-view cameras at its core, and are hoping to leverage video as a central feature rather then an auxillary one.

Which makes sense since Olympus/Panny really couldn't go head-to-head with Canikon with their smaller sensors and brand recondition in the entry-level market (4/3 being 2.0 crop and APS-C being 1.5-1.6 crop).

So these micro-4/3rds sensor is really trying to find its niche. Smaller, compact, cameras with interchangeable-lenses that are more like rangefinders during the film days (Leica M, Nikon SP, Contax G, etc). But only with video, and it does away with ancillary components like reflex mirrors, ovf, phase-detection AF, that aren't needed for the specific niche its trying to carve out (and in many ways forfeiting customers that need those components; which Canikon seems to be getting anyways).

. . . all this is pointless until we actually see something (but hopefully Olympus may have something in the coming weeks).

From the official site:
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/whitepaper.html
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo13/steve_castle/Picture2-1.png

[rawfa]

Here's an interesting article regarding this camera (and new micro four thirds for that matter):

http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=3691&review=panasonic+lumix+g1

[rawfa]

Oh, as for the price it is YTBA, but all articles I've read say it will be UNDER 800us$ WITH the 14-45mm (28-90mm) lens...which is more reasonable than 800us$ for the body only.
One thing that pissed me off is that they dropped the Leica partnership on this one :( and instead came up with their own lumix lenses. What they have to do to boost this format now is to come up with some fast and sharp lenses...and to offer quality video (as well as photo, of course).
I for once am very curious about micro four thirds. I travel A LOT and my pace durring my trips is VERY FAST. Even though I would absolutely adore having a digital camera that allows me what a DLSR allows durring my trips, the size factor always imposed it self. I once took a trip with a D40 and it simply didn't do it for me. Micro four thirds could be a dream come true for guys like me, who are not pros but want more than just a point and shoot.

Photokina will start in 2 weeks. Maybe we can see some surprises there.

[zcream]

I read the dpreview article. 2 questions
1. Upto 60 fps shutter and unlimited jpeg storage with a fast card. does it mean that I can set shutter speed at 48fps and record 24P as a series of still JPEG images ? At DCI resolution too ?

2. The HDMI output - is there any info on whether its 30P 1080P or even 25P 1080P ?

The HDMI video signal can be captured - as long as its worth capturing. Hopefully its the signal sent BEFORE JPEG compression and has good decimation without aliasing..

[zcream]

subs

[zcream]

also can the HDMI output have the overlays turned off ?
3 questions in all :-)

[kevm14]

I once took a trip with a D40 and it simply didn't do it for me. Micro four thirds could be a dream come true for guys like me, who are not pros but want more than just a point and shoot.

The Nikon D40? That was too large??

[rawfa]

The Nikon D40? That was too large??
Yep. People got too self concious when I pointed it at them.

[buildyo]

The thread title will be correct in spring 2009.

Quote below is from http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/091208-panasonic-to-challenge-nikon-with.html?hpg1=bn

Panasonic is developing a version of its Lumix G1 digital still camera with the ability to record high-definition video with auto focus.

The camera will challenge Nikon's recently launched D90, which goes on sale next week in Japan. The D90 is the first digital SLR (single lens reflex) camera with the ability to record high-definition video, but its auto-focus doesn't operate in video mode, only in still mode .

Panasonic's G1 doesn't offer high-definition video, but with a future model Panasonic will attempt to top the D90 by delivering high-defintion video with auto-focus.

A prototype of that future model was shown at a Tokyo news conference held to launch the G1. The prototype was displayed under glass so it's not clear if it was a working model. It looked identical to the G1 with the exception of a red "HD" inscription on the body to the left side of the lens. It also didn't display a model name.

The only indication of a launch date was "spring 2009" for Japan.

[rawfa]

Rock and roll :)

[Thebes]

but with a future model Panasonic will attempt to top the D90 by delivering high-defintion video with auto-focus.

When shooting for shallow DOF I would definitely prefer to shoot manual focus. What are the odds that Panasonic's engineers think it should pull-focus the way I want it to? I presume most of the lenses have plasticy, gritty focus rings if they have them at all...

[Caer]

When shooting for shallow DOF I would definitely prefer to shoot manual focus. What are the odds that Panasonic's engineers think it should pull-focus the way I want it to? I presume most of the lenses have plasticy, gritty focus rings if they have them at all...Given the short register distance of mFT, I expect it won't be long at all before somebody makes an adapter for Nikon or Pentax mounts, since both are pretty basic mechanical linkages (so long as you get lenses with aperture rings).

[rawfa]

Here's another interesting article:

http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=3695&review=panasonic+lumix+g1

[zcream]

:-( HDMI HDMI .. Does it give a 24P or 30P signal over HDMI ? Without overlays ? Ahhh The torture...

[rawfa]

If you visit Panasonics' website for the G1 there's a place where it says "HD Movie" and then "Coming soon" :)

[rawfa]

"Capture HD motion images too. In the future, the LUMIX G Micro System will let you record VGA, WVGA and high resoltution progressive HD motion images. This capability is made possible by the Micro Fourd Thirds System standar, which provides an increased number of electrical contacts that allows a greater amount of data to be transffered. With the Lumix G Micro System you can record strikingly beautiful motion images that will bring you to a whole new world of imaging (...) not offered on the DMC-G1".

There' some video smaples there, but they're too small to come to any conclusions. There's a video with some birds that has nice depth of fiel, latitude and contrast. Could be promissing if they play the right cards. One good sign is that they showed some footage with a lot of motion (some gilrs running) and there were no rolling shutter issues.

When is Spring in Japan?

[rawfa]

Go here http://panasonic.net/pavc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/index.html , then click on "click here", then a pop up window will show up, click on "G's Surprise" and then on "HD Movie" and click on small squared over the "microchip".

[zcream]

muchos gracias rawfa..

[zcream]

Strange. The specs are here..
http://panasonic.net/pavc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/g1/specifications.html

They mention 7fps max burst shooting mode. No mention of HD recording at all..
References to HDMI indicate that you can play a slideshow on a HDTV..

The DMC-G1 has an HDMI output terminal that lets you view HD Photo images on any HDTV*.

[zcream]

Hmm Under the HD video it says "Not offered with the DMC-G1" So its confirmed that the G1 will not record..
Now, Panny please give us 24P on the HDMI at least without overlays..

[rawfa]

The G1 will not be the micro four thirds HD camera we were hoping for, but I have a strong feeling a similar model WITH HD capabilities will be introduced soon (maybe photokina?).
Did you guys see the video samples?

[zcream]

Well. All I need is a HDMI signal that is 24P or 25P. It does not need to be recorded in camera either..
:-( I guess they have not even provided that..

[rawfa]

Check out how small this thing really is: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Lumix%20G1&w=12192486%40N00
Very cool!

[rawfa]

Some cool news about micro four thirds. Panasonic is coming out with some new glass, inclusing fish eyes, primes and zooms, AND as stated before a model that shoots HD video.

http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=3712

[rawfa]

Shifting a little bit from the original post, for those who are interested in the micro four thirds development Olympus unveils rangefinder inspired Micro Four Thirds concept: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=147782

[Steve Smull]

BTW, this thread SHOULD be moved to the photography corner...

I just sent an email to the moderator suggesting a new subdirectory for multifunction image capture devices.

There could be a subdirectory in the Panasonic section for Panasonic's multifunction image capture devices, or better still an entire directory dedicated to cameras like this, the D90, etc. under the names their various brands. Seems like there is plenty of interest here and it would be great to have the postings organized under their own banner...

[Chris_TC]

The only adjustment necessary is to rename this forum. Subforums aren't going to get anywhere near enough traffic to justify splitting things up imo.