PDA

View Full Version : Editing D90 footage



min lee
09-11-2008, 11:27 PM
I asked this in the uber long thread before but didn't get an answer (or maybe it was buried somewhere I couldn't find) so here's it is again:

For the Final Cut users, what's the best sequence setting? I tried setting the compressor to motion jpeg A and B but I get a red render bar for both. I had the most luck with AIC and ProRes. Got an orange render bar for those. Other tidbits: I'm running fcp 2.0 on a G4 powerbook with 1 gig of ram.

There's a lot of talk about image quality, I'd love to hear more about workflow. Can't wait to hear what problems people run into when attempting to carry out a real project from beginning to end. Big thanks to people who bought the D90 and uploaded footage.

Norbert
09-12-2008, 12:03 AM
I don't have the answer, but I'd love to hear the answer to this as well. I just wanted to say that you are not alone in having these problems. I'm running PPro CS3 on 1.8ghz core2duo with 2gb ram and I can't seem to find any setting that makes for smooth previews without rendering.

ando
09-12-2008, 01:35 AM
mjpeg a is compatible with jpeg. extracting frames would get you jpegs
mjpeg b isn't.

you need a ram-based software to playback with adjustments or a ramplayer for external playback
the more ram you have the more you can playback at any fps

also if your application supports it use a higher bitdepth than 8 when color correcting, then output to your final bitdepth

John Caballero
09-12-2008, 05:50 AM
PPro CS3 is working pretty good for me as is Edius, on a PC.

Matthew Bennett
09-12-2008, 06:54 AM
I'm figuring I'd take the AVI's, convert them (with some gentle CC, noise, whatever it takes to smooth out the look of the compression), in AE to 23.976 fps 720p prores movies, then capture my sync sound from whatever sound recorder I'm using, then bring it all into FCP to work it out.

Probably after a sequence was cut, bring it back it AE and output as a 480p with all the gentle downsample and sharpening tools available there.

ando
09-12-2008, 08:05 AM
hmm what you do won't be losless editing. you'll ruin the footage colors

get the 24fps in AE, export to 24fps uncompressed or tga frames if you want to import it in another app later

23.976 will kill some frames, do that as a last step
use 10-12 bit workspaces

el presidente
09-12-2008, 08:35 AM
What about Prospect Hd..10 bit colour..will that help .. you could convert to cf 720p..would the colour still look as good tho?

bearing
09-12-2008, 08:53 AM
Isn't there a way to convert from 24 to 23.976 without loosing frames? I know it will slow it down some, but since 24fps to 25fps is done without adding frames, this small speed difference should not be noticeable at all.

Is there a way to make a mask that blurs pixels in the edge between the 8x8 JPEG blocks? That could remove the visible edge between blocks.

ando
09-12-2008, 09:24 AM
when you need 23.976 output to that format as final step
never change frame rate early in postproduction (maybe when you do retiming you could but that's different)

it's like with noise reduction and images
you want to apply NR first since noise is a part of the image. the amount of noise is represented in SNR (signal to noise ratio). but since the original signal in the real world is affected by noise, your final image is a mix of "signal" and noise. your image is as much data as much noise. you can see it but the NR algorithms must find and remove it.

considering that if you apply NR later, after you change colors or gamma etc then the NR algorithm starts to make mistakes and blurs valuable data.

ando
09-12-2008, 09:25 AM
What about Prospect Hd..10 bit colour..will that help .. you could convert to cf 720p..would the colour still look as good tho?

you could. any intermediary codec will work. cineform is one of the best there is

the simplest workflow if your app supports mjpeg avi files is to leave them that way. set your project if possible to a little higher bit depth when color correcting. that way the color changes will be done with higher color res and won't produce banding or clipping. then you output back to your final format.

if your app doesn't support mjpeg avis you could convert to tga or jpeg frame sequence (if you don't have something like cineform or speededit codecs). the problem will be just hdd space.

ando
09-12-2008, 09:32 AM
if possible get the combustion demo from autodesk's site and have a little fun with it. it opens mjpegs.
the color correcting tools are one of the best possible on "normal" systems. color warper is taken from discreet flame.
you may not like the interface at first but high-end systems look that way
http://www.dv.com/dv/magazine/2007/June/carlin0607colourwarper.jpg

also combustion has an "edit" node to edit movie cuts like you do on a video editing app


free tuts here
http://www.softwaretrainingtutorials.com/combustion-4.php
http://thestreetproductions.com/tips.html

or ask me here on the forum

Park Edwards
09-12-2008, 10:22 AM
if you haven't already, color correctin in photoshop is magical. there isn't an app out there that can compete. you just export the video uncompressed...makes it in the Gigs range, but still a stellar program for grading..CS4 will be even better

ando
09-12-2008, 10:23 AM
please.... let CS3 out
talking serious stuff here. you can surely use CS3 or 4 if you have them but to play is one thing, working is another

you say grading and color correcting. big words. but i doubt you know what that means. or what postproduction is. stick around you might learn something. actually you might replace 90% of Ps operations by combustion alone.

Matthew Bennett
09-12-2008, 10:31 AM
you could. any intermediary codec will work. cineform is one of the best there is

the simplest workflow if your app supports mjpeg avi files is to leave them that way. set your project if possible to a little higher bit depth when color correcting. that way the color changes will be done with higher color res and won't produce banding or clipping. then you output back to your final format.

if your app doesn't support mjpeg avis you could convert to tga or jpeg frame sequence (if you don't have something like cineform or speededit codecs). the problem will be just hdd space.


Seems kind of crazy to convert 8-bit material to 10-bit? I understand the gains in a color correction environment, but with this camera, its not about 'fix it later', its about 'shoot it absolutely right the first time', and apply the gentlest tweaks in post.

I'd like to see some results, though, to compare..

ando
09-12-2008, 10:37 AM
thanks for "crazy"

i'm no daddy here. told you what and why. for the rest there's google

Park Edwards
09-12-2008, 12:30 PM
please.... let CS3 out
talking serious stuff here. you can surely use CS3 or 4 if you have them but to play is one thing, working is another

you say grading and color correcting. big words. but i doubt you know what that means. or what postproduction is. stick around you might learn something. actually you might replace 90% of Ps operations by combustion alone.

ando, have you used it? who makes Premiere Pro and After Effects? Really? Please your arrogant assumptions really make you sound like a child sometimes. You have no idea what projects I have worked on and what programs I've worked with or who I work for. The tool doesn't have to have Avid or Apple branded on it to not make it a pro tool. For crying out loud, you know how many people edit video on Vegas? Have you used it? If you haven't have this conversation in your head, because it seems your attitude is more about being right than it is being helpful.

Park Edwards
09-12-2008, 12:34 PM
the photo world uses Photoshop to color correct photo's, so all those tools are now incorporated in video....that to me isn't just playing. it's a major asset to grading and color correcting..sorry for the big words used

scsz
09-13-2008, 07:45 AM
PPro CS3 is working pretty good for me as is Edius, on a PC.

What settings are you using for the project with CS3?

stoiqa
09-13-2008, 09:14 AM
I`m using Vegas,PPro and AE

The advantage of using Premiere Pro,is that is not converting your image to .m2t.(Vegas)

The trick with PPro is, to not render the clip in time line(leave it Red),put your blocks together and just save the project as Premiere Pro file.

Open After Effects and just go to import projects....open the saved file.You`ll have the entire PPro time-line untouched in AE.

I like the render engine of AE,so it`s all about the taste.

After you CC your clip ad a title, you are ready to render.I render QT uncompressed,if I want to play more in Vegas.This will give you a big file.

If not, just Sorenson3 and you are good to go.

This is just my method.

David Jimerson
09-13-2008, 03:49 PM
please.... let CS3 out
talking serious stuff here. you can surely use CS3 or 4 if you have them but to play is one thing, working is another

you say grading and color correcting. big words. but i doubt you know what that means. or what postproduction is. stick around you might learn something. actually you might replace 90% of Ps operations by combustion alone.

Let's back away from the personal attacks, shall we? :beer:

kfrogg
09-13-2008, 04:47 PM
I'm having no problems with an avid 23.976 sequence. Just long import times, as with any avi or qt file.

Final Cut is easiest. Just drag a clip into workspace and FC will ask if you want it to create a sequence with settings same as clip.

Premiere wont play real time without rendering, dag-nabbit. Stoiqa - hats off for figuring that workflow, but having to cook the media before you can edit seems to defeat the purpose of the camera to begin with -- e.g. making life easier...

(sigh)

stoiqa
09-13-2008, 05:00 PM
I'm having no problems with an avid 23.976 sequence. Just long import times, as with any avi or qt file.

Final Cut is easiest. Just drag a clip into workspace and FC will ask if you want it to create a sequence with settings same as clip.

Premiere wont play real time without rendering, dag-nabbit. Stoiqa - hats off for figuring that workflow, but having to cook the media before you can edit seems to defeat the purpose of the camera to begin with -- e.g. making life easier...

(sigh)

I have a Quad with 4gb of ram...plays just fine without rendering....you can reduce the preview at 50% and work it that way.

kfrogg
09-13-2008, 05:09 PM
ahhh...will try and report back. thanks

Thebes
09-13-2008, 11:19 PM
I've had some problems with Premiere Pro CS3, but my 2.4ghz CoreDuo 2gb Xp Pro plays almost real time. Rather my issue has been random crashes, mostly while scrubbing the play head, but also sometimes while doing a roll edit or even exporting. I think this might be related to my use of ffdshow as a codec pack, with that providing the mjpeg codec... also I formerly had a trial of Morgan MJPEG installed which I had needed to uninstall since the trial expired.

Is it just me with these issues? What are people using for a MJPEG codec? The included one on the Nikon disc? I haven't tried that yet, too busy atm.

And, stupid question, is the D90 really 24fps rather than 23.976fps? If so, any suggestions for dealing with both in the same timeline?

stoiqa
09-14-2008, 08:45 AM
I've had some problems with Premiere Pro CS3, but my 2.4ghz CoreDuo 2gb Xp Pro plays almost real time. Rather my issue has been random crashes, mostly while scrubbing the play head, but also sometimes while doing a roll edit or even exporting. I think this might be related to my use of ffdshow as a codec pack, with that providing the mjpeg codec... also I formerly had a trial of Morgan MJPEG installed which I had needed to uninstall since the trial expired.

Is it just me with these issues? What are people using for a MJPEG codec? The included one on the Nikon disc? I haven't tried that yet, too busy atm.

And, stupid question, is the D90 really 24fps rather than 23.976fps? If so, any suggestions for dealing with both in the same timeline?

No crashes here whatsoever,and no extra codecs installed.Try uninstalling those...should handle mjpg just fine.

http://www.stoiqa.com/24fps.jpg

dave12781
09-14-2008, 12:49 PM
I'd batch process the files out of FCP to a nice lean codec like DVCproHD edit the sequence to how you want it... then reconnect to the original footage, then output uncompressed for the best/easiest solution. I'm sure Apple will have an update with AVI jpeg codec if someone asks them.

As a rule of thumb though... always change your sequence to uncompressed and rerender before your deliver (for your graphics sake).

kfrogg
09-16-2008, 09:11 AM
You Premiere Pro guys... what is your sequence settings? Even in custom settings, I can only find options for DV/24frame of P2.

thanks

Joe94
09-16-2008, 10:40 PM
I have premier CS3 on a mac and premier tells me that the D90 AVI files are unsupported. What am I doing wrong?

stoiqa
09-16-2008, 10:47 PM
You Premiere Pro guys... what is your sequence settings? Even in custom settings, I can only find options for DV/24frame of P2.

thanks

720p at 23.97

stoiqa
09-16-2008, 10:48 PM
I have premier CS3 on a mac and premier tells me that the D90 AVI files are unsupported. What am I doing wrong?

no mac here...try updating...or see if there is a codec that can help

Joe94
09-16-2008, 10:54 PM
I cant seem to find a mjpeg codec for mac

ando
09-17-2008, 02:20 AM
720p at 23.97

23.976? why


for Mac people asking about mjpeg: it's part of the quicktime package.

Chance White
09-19-2008, 06:54 AM
When I drag a clip to a sequence it is not asking me to correct the sequence settings based on the clip in FCP.

Is there something I'm missing? I've used this method before. I have had little luck in getting my D90 footage to play nice with FCP. I haven't tried 'Uncompressed' as an Easy Setup... have tried DVCPRO HD 720p 23.976, I have to render, and I thought it was possible to edit at true 24p?

stoiqa
09-19-2008, 07:36 AM
When I drag a clip to a sequence it is not asking me to correct the sequence settings based on the clip in FCP.

Is there something I'm missing? I've used this method before. I have had little luck in getting my D90 footage to play nice with FCP. I haven't tried 'Uncompressed' as an Easy Setup... have tried DVCPRO HD 720p 23.976, I have to render, and I thought it was possible to edit at true 24p?

Same here with PPro...23.976...no other option.

Park Edwards
09-19-2008, 07:54 AM
what's your process stoiga?

ando
09-19-2008, 07:59 AM
why don't you get the vegas demo for a while?

Thebes
09-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Same here with PPro...23.976...no other option.

You can make a custom one, and in "Desktop" editing mode you can set 24fps.

I'm mixing my D90 footage with footage from my HV20, so I'm just doing everything at 23.976. If I need to cut out a frame every 41.66 seconds to keep sound sync, at least its in a frame accurate codec...

Park Edwards
09-19-2008, 01:47 PM
i don't have an option for 24fps. i went to custom and nothing there

I've only seen 23.97

stoiqa
09-19-2008, 02:35 PM
On 720p,only options you have is 23.97,25p and 29.97fps

Use PPro because i like AE integration.

stoiqa
09-19-2008, 02:36 PM
desktop.....so smart

THX Thebes !

Saved preset as 24p...works..:-Laugh(DBG)-1

Chance White
09-19-2008, 02:45 PM
Anyone found a solution/workflow for FCP?

For now I'm just going to convert to DVCPRO 23.976 then reconnect for export.

Park Edwards
09-19-2008, 04:14 PM
i'll have to check out what desktop is when i get home

MikeyPOTG
09-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Anyone found a solution/workflow for FCP?

For now I'm just going to convert to DVCPRO 23.976 then reconnect for export.

I agree, I'd love to know a solid workflow.

dariomik
09-20-2008, 02:16 AM
Any chance for d90's 24p + hv20's 25P in one timeline? (I'm using avid liquid 7.2)

Don't have the d90 yet so can't even experiment.

Convert 25P to 24p first - then into one timeline??? Possible? Or 24p to 25p??? Big quality losses?

I know there's more issues between ntsc and pal than cadence (like lines) BUT:


Is d90 ntsc then? But it isn't 24p embedded in 60i? - pure 24p, right? So there might be chance 25p 1440x1080 dowrez'd to 720 could work with 1280x720 so lines wouldn't be a problem, right??


am I crazy?

hmmm Qs Qs Qs..



cheers

ando
09-20-2008, 03:18 AM
free for home use, up to 2 slaves

http://www.franticfilms.com/software/products/deadline/overview/

Thebes
09-20-2008, 01:10 PM
Is d90 ntsc then? But it isn't 24p embedded in 60i? - pure 24p, right? So there might be chance 25p 1440x1080 dowrez'd to 720 could work with 1280x720 so lines wouldn't be a problem, right??


The D90's 24p is not embedded in anything The HV20 and other HDV camcorders embed 24p within 60i so that the resulting video is playable on ntsc devises, then for editting progressive video you need to do the pulldown. The D90 takes 24.000 frames per second (rather than 23.976) and puts them into a sort of wrapper which differentiates mjpeg from a series of jpg photos.

The D90's files have no interlacing of any sort, they are really just 24 photos per second. This is a sort of bizarre video format though because 720p is 23.976fps. You probably want to set things to a true 24 fps in your NLE or you could have synch issues with external audio, it would be out of sync 1 frame every 41.66 seconds if you edit at 23.976fps. Alternatively you could make it 23.976fps and retime any external audio.

dariomik
09-20-2008, 02:54 PM
Thanks Thebes :)


So the fact that my hv20's PAL 25P is embedded in 50i (or is it?) would be a problem?


Anyway, would I have to retime the 25p to 24p to mix it with d90's 24p???

Or can I just drop my 25p into a 24p timeline (or vice versa) and let it render?


Sorry for these nagging Qs but lately it so happens that I rarely have a chace to lay my hands on my NLE at home as I'm mostly on the road driving truck cross country and my laptop is only fast enough for reading the forum - so no real NLE here..

can't wait to have d90 and more time..


Thx in advance - derek :)

MikeyPOTG
09-21-2008, 07:21 AM
As far as editing a sequence in FCP. I got a response from a video I posted on Vimeo from a person named Jason Zada:
"Make sure you set your sequence to 1280x720, Apple ProRes Codec, 24fps (not 23.98) and SQUARE pixels. You should get good results with that."

I tested it and it looks a lot better!

Chance White
09-21-2008, 03:27 PM
Excellent. Thank you for sharing that Mikey.

Spybreaka
09-24-2008, 05:43 PM
I'm having issues with FCP - on one of my macs FCP can preview fine when clips are added to the sequence. On my other I get the "unrendered" message. They have identical sequence settings. Does anyone know if we need specific codecs installed to get FCP to play fair?

j
09-25-2008, 10:40 AM
>talking serious stuff here. you can surely use CS3 or 4
>if you have them but to play is one thing, working is another
>
>you say grading and color correcting. big words. but i doubt you
>know what that means. or what postproduction is.
>stick around you might learn something.

Whoh, ease up hard-guy!

This forum is open to all levels, from noob to industry leaders. If using AE for color grading is an upgrade from FCP for the new user, then so be it. Use your vast experience and knowledge to help teach rather than bashing someone upside the head with your ego stick.

ESTEBEVERDE
09-25-2008, 01:28 PM
>talking serious stuff here. You can surely use cs3 or 4
>if you have them but to play is one thing, working is another
>
>you say grading and color correcting. Big words. But i doubt you
>know what that means. Or what postproduction is.
>stick around you might learn something.

Whoh, ease up hard-guy!

This forum is open to all levels, from noob to industry leaders. If using ae for color grading is an upgrade from fcp for the new user, then so be it. Use your vast experience and knowledge to help teach rather than bashing someone upside the head with your ego stick.



! A++++++ !

Park Edwards
09-25-2008, 05:34 PM
I posted this on another thread but it's good enough to post twice.

http://www.free-codecs.com/Motion_JPEG_Codec_download.htm

This codec really helped my workflow in Pro Cs3. It used to be laggy. It still has a red bar, but it plays and scrubs smooth. When I hit preview it takes forever, but it doesn't need a render preview. I even applied a few CC filters and it still played and scrubbed fine. The export was fine too.

bearing
11-06-2008, 04:45 PM
I have been able to play MJPEGS fine, but today when I was trying to use an AVI-synth script that wasn't working I tried to install this codec. Sorry to say this, but it is slow. I have an old computer but I could still use play MJPEGS with like 30% CPU usage. With this codec it's lagging and using 100%.

The codec is uninstalled but it doesn't seem make any difference; still 100%.How can I get my old codec (whatever that was) back?

bearing
11-06-2008, 08:20 PM
This driving me crazy. I can play files in VirtualDub without putting a strain on the CPU. Playing them in WMV/MPC/BSPlayer or similar is using 100% CPU.

I think I have tried every MJPEG codec there is now, looking for the one I had. Most of them puts less strain on the CPU (none as low as playing in VirtualDub though), but then the gamma (or something) is all wrong so I cant use them. See attached pictures to see what i mean with difference in gamma. The darker one is from using an efficient codec. The most efficient one I tried was Morgan MJPEG codec.

I don't know how to proceed anymore. I just want it to work the way it was.

James H.
11-10-2008, 07:42 AM
It's a bit loony for pro/client work, but if your background is in photography/graphics like me, and you're having issues with the AVI wrapper on your Mac (PProCS3), you may feel comfortable opening the AVI files in Photoshop CS3 and exporting with MOV wrapper. Use "none" or "animation" codec and you should be okay.

In case you're wondering, you can apply most Photoshop filters, image correction, layer adjustments, etc, to your video layer just like any photo. I got sweet B&W movie results using the channel/high-pass/gradient-map scenario on some D90 output.

I wouldn't suggest this for most situations, but considering the D90 "movie" is technically a series of JPGs off a dSLR CMOS sensor, I don't think it's out of the question to do some initial adjustments in Photoshop before outputting to an MOV wrapper to bring into your NLE.

fotoweb
11-14-2008, 01:54 AM
This driving me crazy. I can play files in VirtualDub without putting a strain on the CPU. Playing them in WMV/MPC/BSPlayer or similar is using 100% CPU.

I think I have tried every MJPEG codec there is now, looking for the one I had. Most of them puts less strain on the CPU (none as low as playing in VirtualDub though), but then the gamma (or something) is all wrong so I cant use them. See attached pictures to see what i mean with difference in gamma. The darker one is from using an efficient codec. The most efficient one I tried was Morgan MJPEG codec.

I don't know how to proceed anymore. I just want it to work the way it was.

Tried all MJPEG codec with no succes on many PC. Last Vegas works perfectly but i would prefer adobe :(

To select the right codec under windows you can use radlight filtermanager. You can install all codec and test it one by one.

I've read that the Nikon MJPEG is a variation based on Morgan so Nikon would have released its main MJPEG codec.

Coco Bermudez
12-14-2008, 01:34 AM
I'm having issues with FCP - on one of my macs FCP can preview fine when clips are added to the sequence. On my other I get the "unrendered" message. They have identical sequence settings. Does anyone know if we need specific codecs installed to get FCP to play fair?

what are the specs of the FCP mac that previews fine?

mattsand
12-14-2008, 02:41 AM
Set the rt option to unlimited.

mckachun
12-15-2008, 06:40 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RjYV6d3jCL0/SUZrS0lMKiI/AAAAAAAAAD0/xCI5TDmYUNk/s400/premiereD90error.jpg

When I import few D90 clips, everything ok. But when I import around 20-30 clips, it said that "there is not enough memory to import the requested files".

Anyone can help?

I am using Premiere CS3 on PC with 2GB RAM. I have tried DVCPROHD 25fps, Desktop with 24p project setting. My job is to mix D90 footages with HVX200 footages.

squig
12-15-2008, 11:00 AM
I've been searching high and low to no avail, can anybody tell me if it's possible to import my ProRes files into Photshop for color correction?

Park Edwards
12-15-2008, 01:00 PM
You should be able to import the file directly into Photoshop as an original .avi. What version do you have? CS3 and 4 allowed me to.

mattsand
12-15-2008, 02:57 PM
I thought prores was a quicktime codec only though, or did you mean the mov's?

squig
12-15-2008, 03:34 PM
yeah the mov's. I was hoping to color correct the D90 footage in photoshop CS3 or 4. I haven't attempted it before so I'm not sure of the workflow. Convert to ProRes then import into photoshop? or will photoshop only accept the avi's?

squig
12-15-2008, 03:46 PM
Car3o wrote- "Yeah, but it wasn't prores. It was just your native files from the D90. If you have CS3/4 you can open the avi with Photoshop and use the animation pallet and then export to a loss less codec. I've done it with a few vids, turned out nice. But, heads up, the information on the avi's are pretty weak, so if you push your channels to much, you'll have some pretty nasty footy. "

Hmm yeah I was wondering how the image quality would be affected working with the avi's in photoshop. It's just that I'm a long time photoshop user so I'd probably get faster/better results than using a new app like color.

Park Edwards
12-15-2008, 03:50 PM
Image quality won't be affected anymore than it would if you ran it through Adobe Premiere/AE. You're just importing the avi and putting layer masks on top to correct your footage.

And same here. I was so excited to see this feature since I color correct photo's all day long 40hrs a week. Having the same tools used for photo's added to video is a great addition. What I wish would happen is the ability to open RAW for avi files like you can jpeg's. It can't be that hard to add it to CS5. Using RAW for jpeg's is the best thing to happen when a photographer uploads a shi*ty photo and can't do anything with it.

squig
12-15-2008, 06:11 PM
So you color correct the D90 avi's in photoshop then export them as prores and edit in fcp?

If I can do that I figure I can get the super8 look I want and not have to fork out the $$$ for magic bullet.

Park Edwards
12-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Not sure...I'm running PC..but, what I think you can do is...import d90 footage in Photo, CC, then export to some kind of lossless codec, then turn that into a prores file and import into FCP....my best guess.

That's if you can't export straight to Prores from Photoshop.

mattsand
12-16-2008, 02:56 PM
i think you should edit in fcp, apply my stairstep fix, grade using free tools, like the built in ones, my other plugins, or other free plugins. you can definitely get professional results as well as create many specific looks without photoshop or magic bullet.

/matt

Rick Horton
12-16-2008, 03:52 PM
I tend to agree.

mattsand
12-16-2008, 03:59 PM
for the record i use both colorista and looks myself but you don't really need them if you're on a budget.

Park Edwards
12-16-2008, 04:03 PM
The work flow is much simpler if you have Premiere and Photoshop. You grade you files however and save it as a .psd then you import the .psd into Premiere. Export and you're done. Photoshop probably has a lot of tools to CC your stuff. And there all layer masks. So you can just delete a layer or erase parts don't want affected.

squig
12-16-2008, 11:23 PM
for the record i use both colorista and looks myself but you don't really need them if you're on a budget.
When I get my new mac next week I'll play around with your plugins and the fcp stuff and see how it goes. Looks isn't a huge expense so I might get it if I'm not satisfied. It's just that my business partner is a creative director and a photoshop pro so he could just do his usual wizardry if we imported the footage into photoshop. I just gotta tinker.......very frusrtrating watching everyone else get stuff done while I wait for my equipment to arrive.......It's like getting blue balls!

gdrifter
12-30-2008, 02:26 PM
Could anyone recommend the most efficient workflow for fcp 5?
It seems there is no native or rt way to edit the raw footage, yet mattsand's stairstep filter needs to be applied to the raw footage for best results..
So at the moment I can only figure out this, which requires a lot of rendering:
import avi clip to timeline
apply stairstep removal
render to quicktime
import quicktime clip for editing

mattsand
12-31-2008, 03:04 AM
but that sounds like a great workflow?! what you you mean by much rendering? you need to convert at some point, and the rescaler renders in faster than realtime so it shouldn't take long. the rescaler can be applied after conversion though, no problem as long as you haven't done any scaling, if you've found another way of converting to be better/faster.

/matt

gdrifter
12-31-2008, 05:54 AM
Umm, well I guess I meant that I had to render all the source files instead of the final edit. But maybe this is inevitable with the d90 / fcp5 combination anyway. Maybe it would seem less if I had a better idea how to render/export multiple clips as a batch in fcp. Is there a good way to do this, so I don't have to do them one at a time?

mattsand
12-31-2008, 06:46 AM
maybe this is inevitable with the d90 / fcp5 combination anyway
probably since it doesn't support mixed codec timelines. it doesn't work with, for example, a dvcpro hd timeline and unlimited rt then i take it?

Maybe it would seem less if I had a better idea how to render/export multiple clips as a batch in fcp
place them all on the timeline, apply filter(s), put markers at the edits, export as one big file including markers, reimport, select the markers, create subclips.

/matt

gdrifter
12-31-2008, 06:55 AM
I don't think the rt works no, but I will check again. Thanks very much for the tip on the bulk render, that should help.

Tim Joy
01-04-2009, 01:22 PM
For the *Older* FCP users who don't have Prores.. am I the only one? (I have FCP 4.5)-
I don't have a D90 yet, but I've downloaded some avi clips that came direct from the camera to play with and this is what I've come up with as a workflow-

Use MPEG Streamclip to transcode the AVI's to DVCPRO HD 720p. Once imported, the clips in FCP show a size of 960 x 720 ? As does the timeline when set to DVCPRO HD 720p? but it displays correctly, taking up the full width of my screen (1280).

I can edit these without having to render, running it in "RT safe" mode. Once I apply Matt's brilliant stair-step removal plugin it gives me a red render bar, however, if I render it, the plugin no longer "works". It plays unrendered just fine and the plugin is working. I can slap on CC plugs and no rendering necessary. Playback with the viewer window at 100% size is a little jerky, but set at 50% it plays smooth. (I never thought the dual 2.7 G5 would be "slow", but maybe it's the video card?)
Also, on this timeline, I can import the AVI's directly. Again, they show the red render bar, but I can still view it without rendering. I do have it set to "play base layer only", and this might be why.

Anything I've tried to make a sequence at 1280x720 with square pixels doesn't seem to want to stick. It either switches to something else, or my clips need scaling/ look squeezed.

Does this seem like the best solution without the Prores codec? I'm going to test various output formats that I often use (h264 for web and a file for DVD), but so far it seems to work well and looks very good.

mattsand
01-04-2009, 01:39 PM
the plugin checks that the output is 1280x720 and does nothing if it isn't. in preview mode it is, since everything is rendered as square pixels. you can try modifying the script. it's easier than you think. just replace all 1280's with 960's and 640's with 480's. or use a square pixel codec, although i guess there are none that are realtime in 4.5...

btw why rt safe? unlimited is better if you're fine with a frame drop or two.

/matt

Tim Joy
01-04-2009, 01:58 PM
the plugin checks that the output is 1280x720 and does nothing if it isn't. in preview mode it is, since everything is rendered as square pixels. you can try modifying the script. it's easier than you think. just replace all 1280's with 960's and 640's with 480's. or use a square pixel codec, although i guess there are none that are realtime in 4.5...

btw why rt safe? unlimited is better if you're fine with a frame drop or two.

/matt

So, what I gather is that DVCPRO HD 720p is not a square pixel codec? There are no other options? Time to see about upgrading, although that's bound to open other cans of worms.

I'm fine with changing the script code if I need to, but are you saying that it won't work when it comes time to render for output/ make a master?

I was using RT safe as an example. I usually use unlimited.

mattsand
01-04-2009, 02:21 PM
it will work if you change the code. it doesn't work now, does it?

/matt

gdrifter
01-04-2009, 02:45 PM
Try this streamclip - fcp workflow. Got this info from chris f. I'm on Pal so I ignored the stuff in brackets...

"Batch Process all of the video files with Streamclip using this setting: http://michaelmistretta.com/2008/edi...-in-final-cut/ (http://michaelmistretta.com/2008/editing-d90-footage-in-final-cut/)

(Then open those new quicktime files with Cinema Tools and convert them to 23.98fps)

And then import them into a Final Cut project with timeline set at (23.98 and) the same Apple Intermediate Codec setting from the above link."

mattsand
01-04-2009, 04:10 PM
you're right, i forgot about aic, but i'm not sure if it's a realtime codec in 4.5 or if it's even included or has to be installed via imovie? i also don't quite see why you'd want to go to 23.98 since fcp supports 24? better to convert on export if you need ntsc compatibility?

anyway, another solution i just remembered is to convert to photo jpeg then hack the rt enabler to enable rt for resolutions over 320x240, google it. that should give you great rt performance with a high quality codec. keep the quality over 75% and it will look as good as the original.

/matt

Tim Joy
01-05-2009, 08:46 AM
Try this streamclip - fcp workflow. Got this info from chris f. I'm on Pal so I ignored the stuff in brackets...

"Batch Process all of the video files with Streamclip using this setting: http://michaelmistretta.com/2008/edi...-in-final-cut/ (http://michaelmistretta.com/2008/editing-d90-footage-in-final-cut/)

(Then open those new quicktime files with Cinema Tools and convert them to 23.98fps)

And then import them into a Final Cut project with timeline set at (23.98 and) the same Apple Intermediate Codec setting from the above link."


I tried this and it seems to work well using the Apple Intermediate Codec. I put the quality up to 100% and converted several files, put on CC and the d90 rescaler all in real time, and made a dvd. It looks great, and I don't see hardly any difference in the results using a ProRes workflow on the same clip. When I import the clips into FCP it brings up a message that "Apple intermediate Codec is not fully supported in FCP and they recommend using something else..." But hey, it works better than anything else, so far.

My D90 is shipping today, so that will be the true test when I get a big project going.

Also, your right Matt, I waited to convert anything to 23.976 till it got to compressor for the dvd ver, although I'm curious how it will sync when I start shooting double system with sound recorded on the laptop. Logic has the ability to run at 24.000, so probably i'll choose that, or 30.000 might be better and still sync.

Robert Altman
01-11-2009, 12:55 PM
I just got my d90 and have started to play around with the footage in Final Cut Pro 6. FCP 6 seems to handle editing fairly well without transcoding. I take it that the problems reported by others with Final Cut refer to earlier FCP versions.

Are others using FCP 6 natively for editing? My understanding is that the d90 codec has a 4:2:2 color space, which should make it good for color correcting and FX.

What are other's more experienced experience??

(I hate to reinvent the wheel)

mattsand
01-11-2009, 01:31 PM
The color subsampling is not the same as the color space in the true sense of the word. A 4:2:0 codec has just as many colors, just at a slightly lower res. It does matter for some effects like keying but not so much for primary color correction. Besides prores is a 4:2:2 codec too and it has 4:4:4 resampling built in so in some ways it could be considered better. I like to stay in the original format because it's, well, the original format. i can create an edl and go to another system losslessly, maybe a windows system that might have a better mjpg codec, maybe with deblocking? Not that i often will but i like maybes. :-) /matt

Robert Altman
01-11-2009, 01:41 PM
I chose the wrong word--color sampling is 4:2:2 as I understand it with the d90 codec. This is better than HDV (and miniDV, and I think DVCPRO) which does 4:2:0. In other words it is a reasonable codec for color correction and FX.

So it sounds like you do stay in the d90 codec for all your editing/CC/FX needs.

I will give that a try--certainly the easiest route!

mattsand
01-11-2009, 04:02 PM
I chose the wrong word--color sampling is 4:2:2 as I understand it with the d90 codec. This is better than HDV (and miniDV, and I think DVCPRO) which does 4:2:0. In other words it is a reasonable codec for color correction and FX.
the choice of word is ok, i knew what you meant, but what i'm saying is that this matters very little if at all when it comes to color correction. you got just as many colors in all of the above codecs with the same 8-bit latitude. the subsampling only determines the resolution of the color channel. while low resolution is a bad thing in itself it doesn't make the codec any better or worse suited for color correction.

/matt

artforme
01-11-2009, 09:54 PM
the choice of word is ok, i knew what you meant, but what i'm saying is that this matters very little if at all when it comes to color correction. you got just as many colors in all of the above codecs with the same 8-bit latitude. the subsampling only determines the resolution of the color channel. while low resolution is a bad thing in itself it doesn't make the codec any better or worse suited for color correction.

/matt

No, i think Robert is right, a 4:2:2 is better for working color in post than a 4:2:0. A 4:2:0 is higher compressed color information; and thus more likely to color artifacts when working on color. A 4:2:2 is much better for chroma keying or other color work because you have more color information to work with.

HDV is in 4:2:0. DigiBeta is in 4:2:2; this is why broadcasters still use Digibeta.

mattsand
01-12-2009, 02:17 AM
4:2:0 is higher compressed color information
no, it's just lower res, which again is bad in itself but not more so when it comes to grading. if you downsample an image to 4:2:0 then grade it you get the exact same result as if you grade it first, then downsample. you're perfectly right that 4:2:0 is more prone to color artifacts, but again that's true whether you grade it or not. bottom line: 4:2:0 is not as good as 4:2:2 but it's equally worse no matter how much you grade it.

/matt