Mixer with Deva bag recorders

[Baker Park]

Hi. Do you Zaxcom owners use a mixer in front of your Fusions when mobile? Especially when running a double system and sending to camera at the same time.

Which of the Zaxcom recorders are considered usable as a bag recorder/mixer?

Thanks

[HansonD]

I'd venture to say that the majority of the Deva operators out there are using the machine mounted on a fully equipped sound cart. It's generally used as a recording module on larger productions and all mixing and routing is done through a table-top style mixer.

Not to say you can't do whatever you like with the Deva. With 8-16 inputs/channels and as many output options it's pretty versatile. My impression is that with the fusion Zax is trying to push it as an "in-the-bag" eng oriented machine. For my tastes it's just too bulky. My preference would be using a field mixer like a 442, alphamix (I own one), SQN, or Wendt which provides more dedicated hardware outputs specifically suited to running in the bag. Though it would be usefull if there were just two many channels needed to make mixing feasible on the run, in which case It might work alright to just toss the fusion with all your radio mics in a bag and record them all iso... you have to address how you're going to synch everything in this case... wireless TC jam from camera would be one option. Also makes more work for post.

But if you don't need all those channels I think the more traditional mixer -->cameras -->recorder scheme may be the way to go.

For example with my Alphamix (could do the same with 442, SQN, etc) I can use the 10-pin cables to hardline a two Ch mix to 2x cameras with monitor returns, use the dedicated mono TA3 out to feed comteks or IFB for producers, and use the main XLR outs to feed wireless camera hops.. or feed a 2-ch mix to a compact recorder (702,744 etc), and if I have enough recording channels I can even use the direct outs to record iso tracks. It's also easier to change things on the fly by just plugging and playing whereas with the Deva you'd have to dig into the menus and re-route your tracks and outputs. Which can be fiddly and I feel that the chance of making an error is higher. Also some would argue that the dedicated mixer will have more quiet, higher quality preamps than the Deva.

-my 2cents

[Baker Park]

Thanks for the extended reply, I read it carefully. I am running with a 442 into a Tascam P2. My work started doing community/meetings/development/non-profit coverage but I find my self interested and doing more audio work. So now I want to upgrade my recorder. I had intended to get the SD744t. How ever when I read these forums it seems that most of the serious pros are using heavier metal. I need to stay bag capable for now as that is what most of my work is, however I am trying to keep future work options open.
So the question is

....can I still stay bag oriented but use a Zaxcom unit (or the like), a one time big spend allowing me to do more complex work or are they really too heavy? This means one recorder to do it all.

.. do I stick with the original 744 plan limiting to 4 iso tracks? I just don't have the experiance to know how often I might need 6 or more tracks. or

...can I use a 702t in conjuction with a 744 for those times I need more tracks? I thinking "cart" in this circumstance. This would spread out my costs. It is tempting as some of my work gets to be real eng body slams and having a 702t seems ideal.

I know there are other recorders out there however the consensus seems to be, in my reading, that the Zaxcom units are extra bullet proof. Line in all channels is important to me. I am not sure how the Nagra VI, 788, etc. fit in.

Thanks for your input guys I know this is some what of a repeat of a previous post....but it is hard won dollars and I am on a strong learning curve. I may be moving too fast but the P2 was second hand when I got it.

[John Willett]

I know there are other recorders out there however the consensus seems to be, in my reading, that the Zaxcom units are extra bullet proof. Line in all channels is important to me. I am not sure how the Nagra VI, 788, etc. fit in. .

Zaxcom, I don't like and know of someone who bought one and then got rid.

Of the biggies I think the Cantar comes out on top.

Of the mid-range I like the Nagra VI the best (yes it has 6 line-ins if you want). I find the 788T too small and fiddly (so SD are launching a larger control panel for it at IBC) and it gets hot (and SD advise not putting it tightly in a bag as it needs air round it to cool it) - and it is 48kHz max - no 96kHz. Quality is good, of course, but my feeling is that SD just made it too small for what it has to do - sorry SD. I also hear good things about the Sonosax in this price range.

Of these, I have bought the Nagra VI myself; although large in comparison, the ergonomics are great, quality is excellent, it does 24/96 and doesn't get hot at all (and the high capacity battery pack gives 12-15 hours working).

I do like the other SD recorders, though, and they don't get hot like the 788T.

[Steve House]

...
.. do I stick with the original 744 plan limiting to 4 iso tracks? I just don't have the experiance to know how often I might need 6 or more tracks. or

...can I use a 702t in conjuction with a 744 for those times I need more tracks? I thinking "cart" in this circumstance. This would spread out my costs. It is tempting as some of my work gets to be real eng body slams and having a 702t seems ideal.

...

FYI - Sound Devices now has the 788t 8-track recorder on the market.

[John Willett]

FYI - Sound Devices now has the 788t 8-track recorder on the market.

Yes, seen it and don't like it.

Too small, fiddly, gets hot and 48kHz only.

The others are fine, I just think they made the 788T too small for what it needs to do.

Especially as they are now launching the CL-8 (http://www.sounddevices.com/news/cl8.htm) external control panel for it.

And the website advises against using it in a bag the normal way and put feet on it if you stand it down so it gets an air-flow around it - see HERE (http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/788t-recorders/788t-heat/#more-265).

Sound Devices stuff has always been good - but I just think the 788T is too small to do the job intended and pays for it by getting too hot and having fiddly controls - and the one at the PLASA show had quite a few failed LEDs, which makes me question reliability.

[Steve House]

Yes, seen it and don't like it.

Too small, fiddly, gets hot and 48kHz only.

The others are fine, I just think they made the 788T too small for what it needs to do.

Especially as they are now launching the CL-8 (http://www.sounddevices.com/news/cl8.htm) external control panel for it.

And the website advises against using it in a bag the normal way and put feet on it if you stand it down so it gets an air-flow around it - see HERE (http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/788t-recorders/788t-heat/#more-265).

Sound Devices stuff has always been good - but I just think the 788T is too small to do the job intended and pays for it by getting too hot and having fiddly controls - and the one at the PLASA show had quite a few failed LEDs, which makes me question reliability.

Yup - new product teething pains. I'm intrigued by the Nagra VI you have but it seems in very short supply here in North America - can't even find any pricing info on it. (A little more than a Tascam HD-P2 I'm sure :) )

[John Willett]

Yup - new product teething pains. I'm intrigued by the Nagra VI you have but it seems in very short supply here in North America - can't even find any pricing info on it. (A little more than a Tascam HD-P2 I'm sure :) )

Not so sure about teething pains - the size and heat are inherent, I'm afraid. They should have made it a bit larger to start with, I think.

The Nagra VI is about 10% less than the 788T I think. UK price is £3,999 for the Nagra VI and about £4.5k for the 788T.

I *do* like the fact that SD are enabling AES42 on the 788T though - beta firmware upgrade will be shown at IBC I'm told.

[Steve House]

Not so sure about teething pains - the size and heat are inherent, I'm afraid. They should have made it a bit larger to start with, I think.

The Nagra VI is about 10% less than the 788T I think. UK price is £3,999 for the Nagra VI and about £4.5k for the 788T.

I *do* like the fact that SD are enabling AES42 on the 788T though - beta firmware upgrade will be shown at IBC I'm told.

Does the Nagra accept external sync from blackburst or composite video as well as wordclock? Given the dearth of prosumer cameras that offer genlock so they can accept a Lockit, if at all possible I want to get a recorder that has the option to slave its clock to the camera's timebase. The downside of the 788t, in addition to size and heat, is it only records up to 48kHz. But its very big upside over the 744t (in additional to the track count) is that it can sync its clock to an external video signal.

Why oh why can't someone come up with a battery powered box the size of a Lockit that will accept composite video input and output wordclock that's slaved to the video clock? I thought the new Ambient LANC logger was going to do that, as well as extracting timecode from the LANC port, but a careful perusal of its documentation doesn't turn up anything to suggest it can.

[John Willett]

Does the Nagra accept external sync from blackburst or composite video as well as wordclock? Given the dearth of prosumer cameras that offer genlock so they can accept a Lockit, if at all possible I want to get a recorder that has the option to slave its clock to the camera's timebase. The downside of the 788t, in addition to size and heat, is it only records up to 48kHz. But its very big upside over the 744t (in additional to the track count) is that it can sync its clock to an external video signal.

I have asked my contact at Nagra about this and will let you know.

[John Willett]

Does the Nagra accept external sync from blackburst or composite video as well as wordclock? Given the dearth of prosumer cameras that offer genlock so they can accept a Lockit, if at all possible I want to get a recorder that has the option to slave its clock to the camera's timebase. The downside of the 788t, in addition to size and heat, is it only records up to 48kHz. But its very big upside over the 744t (in additional to the track count) is that it can sync its clock to an external video signal.

Answer from the horses mouth:-

"Of course it can! It will take PAL or NTSC. You can see the details in the latest manual on the web site page 36 - clock reference."

This is what is says:-

Generally the Nagra VI will be synchronised to its internal high stability stratum III crystal (MASTER position), which will guarantee the correct sampling frequency. It is however possible to select another external reference, by moving through the possible choices using the up / down keys.

If an external reference is being used then this signal must be table. Pressing the centre key on any of these positions will select the displayed choice as reference.

Selection / Signal explanation
MASTER / Machine is set to be “master”, all clocks are synchronised using the internal stratum III high stability crystal.
MAS +0.1% / As master but accelerated by 0.1% for NTSC applications
MAS -0.1% / As master but slowed down by 0.1% for NTSC applications
EXT 44.1 / External word clock on the extension connector at 44.1 kHz
EXT 48 / External word clock on the extension connector at 48 kHz
EXT 88.2 / External word clock on the extension connector at 88.2 kHz
EXT 96 / External word clock on the extension connector at 96 kHz
AES A 44.1 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 44.1 kHz
AES A 48 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 48 kHz
AES A 88.2 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 88.2 kHz
AES A 96 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 96 kHz
AES B 44.1 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 44.1 kHz
AES B 48 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 48 kHz
AES B 88.2 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 88.2 kHz
AES B 96 / External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 96 kHz
PAL / External video reference is on the extension connector in PAL 25 fps
NTSC / External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 29.97 fps
NTSC 60 Hz / External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 30 fps

For the manual go HERE (http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/index.php), select "Support", choose "Nagra VI" and download the pdf manual. This is the latest version of the manual, dated 5th September, and includes the recent updates.

I am liking this machine more and more :cheesy: