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Kholi
09-10-2008, 02:08 PM
Like most equipment, from your blender to your laptop, understanding at least the basics will decrease a lot of frustration when using. My mission, to date, with the d90 has been just that: understanding how the D-movie mode works and what does, or does not, apply to the new feature brought to us by Nikon. Do not take my word as gospel, and please feel free to contribute and throw ideas back and forth between each other. This thread'll stay updated until there's no more to update.

Plenty of DVXusers, those who own the camera and do not yet, have contributed to findin' out more about this machine. We'll all continue to plod along to discover more. Hopefully, Nikon will offer some direct firmware upgrades to make our lives easier. Until then....

Outline Overview:

SECTION 1 -- Explaination of Nikon's New D-Movie Feature and how it affects the filmmaker, videographer and hobbyist.
SECTION 2 -- A breakdown of D-Movie "mode" features instructions on how to Lock Exposure and what's available in D-Movie Mode
SECTION 3 -- Explains how to achieve cleaner imagery and the ingredients necessary
SECTION 4 -- Theories on How to further Optimize the image, Custom Curves and how they relate and more.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __




SECTION ONE



(not an image of the Nikon d90. Substitute for now. )
http://www.kholi.net/d90comp.jpg


The Lowdown on Nikon's D-Movie Mode:

Simply put, it's not what we (most of us DVXusers) expected it to be. We all wanted, or thought that the camera would include, manual controls similar to its DSLR half and even assumed that Nikon's press release on ISO ratings and such meant that we would be able to control, in moderate amounts, aspects of the camera's image acquisition.

We were wrong, but that's okay. What you do have control over:

....-- Manual Aperture: In Aperture Priority (A) mode or Full Manual Lenses
....-- Picture Controls: Sharpness, contrast, saturation, etc. It all applies
....-- Custom Curves via NikonNX Software for maximum control during image acquisition (more on this in post four)
....-- Exposure Value (EV +/-) for quick and "dirty" adjustments.
....-- 720p or SD shooting modes
....-- Record! AT least this is manual right?

What youd do NOT have control over but you wish you did:

....-- *Seperate Manual ISO adjustment
....-- *Seperate Manual Shutter Adjustment

*Seperate -- Meaning that you can't adjust these two things independently, the camera does it for you. More details on this below.

So, it isn't the manual dream come true, by any means. You could very well say that the D-Movie mode was an afterthought, and that's okay. Because, the camera is a DSLR and not a dedicated video acquisition device.

Going along with it not being that, time to mention the 720p and Rolling Shutter:

Lackluster 720p and heartbreaking Rolling Shutter. The camera's 720p is subpar, producing jagged edges or anti-aliasing at corners and curves. The SD modes are even worse, making the option of shooting in anything less than 720p a bit pointless. To some, it's acceptable. To a lot of us it leaves much to be desired.

..............720p Raw Example: Train Footage (http://www.vimeo.com/1668437)

Rolling Shutter is enough to make you queasy. Whether it's bending a building in half during a pan or when a vehicle speeds by with a "gangsta lean", it's just not pretty in this application. It'll probably take more hurricane magic, the likes that are in the RED ONE, to minimize the skew to begin with so don't expect much out of it. Stabilization is a must, handheld isn't going to be your friend with this Camera. Glidecam, Monopod, even a Shoulder Mount setup out in front of the body will work. Otherwise, you're just going to have lots of jello in your footage.

..............Rolling Shutter Example: People Walking, Tripod (tamed example)
(http://www.vimeo.com/1641816)
So, why would you even consider a Nikon D90 for anything serious?

A number of reasons. Let me tell you why I'm keepin' my d90:

....-- Inherent Interchangable Lens System: It's a DSLR. Changin' lenses is there from the get go. No 35mm Adapter required or wide angle adapters at all. Of course there's a certain limit to what you can attach to it, there's also a plethora of Nikon Mount lenses out there for you to play with.

....-- Inherent DOF and FOV Characteristics, and Sharpness: Again, no 35mm Adapter needed. No longer will people be fighting over Bokeh and Ground Glasses and all the silly things that come with 35mm Adapters. At least where the d90 and similar systems are concerned. It's now up to the user to choose wisely what glass will work for the project and what won't. As well, the glass (and admittedly the compression) is the only thing stoppin' anyone from a sharp or soft image. Choose your weapon. Razor Blade or a Butter Knife?

....-- Color Reproduction: Just look at the footage. Need I say more?

....-- Dynamic Range/ Latitude: The highlight handlin' on this camera is delicious. Not to mention that, here again-- despite the compression, the image holds up quite well when applyin' grades and corrections. It's quite simply a dream as far as Latitude goes, and I'll worry a lot less about blow outs because they're silky, unlike the harsh discolored blowouts of larger prosumer cameras.

(http://www.vimeo.com/1641816)..............Dynamic Range/Latitude Example: Fish Eye with a VW Golf (http://vimeo.com/1685506)(Overexposed in several areas, the highlights and detail still remain and blowouts are pleasant)

....-- Small Footprint: The size of a ten year old's foot. Try walkin' into a store with the smallest adapter combo (HV20 + Letus Mini) and stealin' some shots. I would be much more confident doin' it with something like the d90 over the look of the HV20+Adapter which draws lots of attention. And, you still get your DOF. Excellent.

....-- Great SD/Web/480p Content: I think it's totally acceptable as far as 480p goes. Some others might even think the 720p looks fine and, hey, each set'a eyes may see somethin' different. There are so many examples on the web of d90 footage now that we've learned how to manipulate the camera into being obedient that I think most people would be hard-pressed to say 480 isn't acceptable. If your final delivery is Standard Def? I say go for it.

(http://vimeo.com/1694439)..............720p Example: Flowers by stoiQa (http://vimeo.com/1694439)-- Speaks for itself. Vimeo's native display is about 480 (It's 360p actually), you can click the scale button to see it in Full 720 or download the clip then resize to 480 (853 x 480) at your leisure.

Alright, so what's the verdict?

The verdict is what you choose it to be. For a lot of people that are willing to jump through the hoops it's going to be the camera that allows them to make some really pretty pictures. Narrative, Documentary, Wedding, etc. Make your choice based on what those that allowed themselves to be cut on the bleedin' edge discovered. We did it for the community! Make your decision based on what you think and what you see. Don't let anyone else spend your money for you. That's my verdict, anyway.

Had enough? Then read on...

Kholi
09-10-2008, 02:08 PM
SECTION TWO



D-Movie Mode is?

Not really D-Movide "mode" at all. It's Live View Mode with a twist.

For the sake of assumin' that you've gotten your camera I'm going to skip going into detail on how you activate the D-movie mode, enable 720p, etc. and point you toward the E-Version of the manual: (manual link here)

For those who do not have the camera, here's a [very] short preface: To Activate D-Movie *mode you must press the LV (Live View) Button on the back of the camera, located on the right hand side just above the directional pad. This switches from Viewfinder to the LCD (which is glorious) on the back of the d90. From there, you press the OKAY button and you're all good to record.

Let's move on.

What does the Nikon d90 do once in Live View Mode?

Quite simply put? Whatever it wants until you tell it to stop. I'm not exaggeratin', either. The second that the camera moves from viewfinder to Live View it automatically begins adjusting the image to what IT thinks is an optimized image, not what you think is an optimized image. This mean it applies whatever ISO and Shutter it thinks is necessary, totally overriding what you, the user, thinks a pretty image looks like.

Well how do you control it?

There are two ways to stop the camera from being bad:

....1. AE-L (HOLD): By now you should know how to enable the AE-L (HOLD) function so
....that you only have to press it to stop the camera from misbehaving. Once you do this,
....the Auto Shutter and ISO adjustment stops, and you can no longer adjust anything.
....To set your camera for AE-L (hold): Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > f (controls) >> Assign AE-L/AF-L Button > Ae lock (hold) > Ok

....2. EV values (+/-): This does not completely stop the camera from doing what it
....wants, but curtails a lot of its behavior. Along with that...

.....--Exposure Value adjustment also adjusts the Shutter Speed along with ISO values. There is no definite measurement (as of now) as to what each value represents. The gyst is that negative values from -2.0 ~ -5.0 are higher shutter speeds (1/125 ~ 1/1000)
........and the positive values +.03 ~ +2.0 are slower shutter speeds (1/30 ~ 1/60). Depending on what the camera sees while these values are enabled is what it'll choose for the ISO. Example: I've set the camera at +1.0 and aimed it at a shadow. From there, the
........camera will automatically adjust ISO until I AE-L (HOLD) it down. ( note: I actually believe that, even after you adjust the Exposure Value, the camera STILL plays with the shutter on its own whim. )

After you've gotten to a place with the camera's auto-imaging that you feel comfortable with, once adjusting the Exposure Value, then you can lock it down or allow it to keep auto-adjustin' as it wishes. The choice is all yours.

( video example here )

But that sounds like a pain, can't you just adjust ISO and Shutter Speed Manually?

I had to list this question because, as much as we keep sayin' no, it doesn't quite sink in. So here it is again:

NO.

As of now, you cannot adjust ISO and SHUTTER manually. The closest you can get to it is the outlined EV (+/-) adjustment. Sorry folks. I hope that I'm wrong and just have been over-lookin' the proper way to do it, but my verdict is that you can't. Nikon, are you listening?

Well, what about the Aperture, how does that work?

That depends all on the type of lens you use. It'll dictate what Priority mode you shoot in as well AND becomes an extension of the Camera's behavior.

....-- Full Auto Aperture (AF-S included): Ones lacking a Manual Aperture ring are what I'm referrin' too and it's probably not the "proper" term. You get what I mean. If your lens is similar to the included kit lens, 18-105/3.5~DARK-AS-HELL, then your only manual options are zoom and focus. The aperture is controlled electronically. Using a lens like this allows you to utilize any of the shooting modes. You dictate aperture as normal and activate LV mode. If you're already in LV mode then you have to exit and re-enter before the adjustment takes place.

....-- Auto/Manual Aperture Lenses: Similar to the AF-S lenses but you have an Iris ring that can be locked for Auto Useage or unlocked for manual. With this lens you can electronically set the aperture/iris or unlock the ring and choose your own Aperture. This comes in handy and I'll go into detail as to why later. NOTE: Once you unlock the Aperture your Camera will throw an EE (error), that's fine. You can still record as normal. However, once you exit LV mode you must return the Iris to the Auto Lock so that the camera can "see" the lens. Otherwise, you cann't re-enter LV mode.

....-- Full Manual Aperture Lenses (Focus, Aperture, Zoom-- Non Electronic): No limitations and, in my opinion, the best way to go for D-Movie video usavge. You're limited to Manual Mode (M) when using Full Manual lenses and have a full range of iris values to use. This is, what I think, the best way to get the most mileage out of your d90's Video function.

A bit more information about Lenses: The Auto Lenses only allow you to increase the lens value to an F8/9. That means you cannot use an F22 or higher (lower) apreture setting for video. (Car3o was right about this one. I just realized it). This coincides with my reasoning behind completely Manual lenses being the best option for video usage. I'm pretty sure this is because beyond F8 the camera wouldn't be able to adjust itself, seein' as how the Live View mode behaves where the sensor is involved. All well and good. Moving on.

What do the Picture Controls offer?

Picture Control, o'course! Or, in a semi-detailed explaination, Picture Controls have preset "curves" (which you cannot modify without external software) assigned to them and beneath each PC you can adjust the image by. The Picture Controls are list as:

....[SD] Standard
....[NL] Neutral
....[VI] Vivid
....[MC] Monochrome
....[PT] Portrait
....[LS] Landscape

And, allow you to adjust the following details beneath each (aside from Monocrhome, which has a seperate set of values): Hue, Saturation, Contrast and Sharpness.

You can, and will, see the direct effect of each when you record your video.

Just a little more manual control which can, and will, go a long way once you understand what you want out of your image. I've also been informed that you can create custom curves (thanks ando) via external software to further increase the impact of the D90's dynamic range and sensor capabilities before processing. More on that another time.

NOTE: Increasing sharpness too much in-camera will result in a ghosting image. You may not see it in the LCD, once you transfer your footage you'll see black lines and shadows following your objects. Beware of oversharpening your footage in-camera. Do it in post or use sharper lenses in the beginning.

(black and white video here)
(contrast adjustment video here)
(Sharpness Ghosting Video Here)

So, after a brief overview of the manual controls that you do have at your disposal, Manual Aperture, Picture Controls, and Exposure Value adjustments, you go and shoot some video and you still can't get around the high ISO grain? Even in Daylit situations?

It's time to boss the D90 around and force it to hand over some clean, low-ISO imagery... ready?

Kholi
09-10-2008, 02:09 PM
SECTION THREE


DISCLAIMER (9:28 PM PACIFIC) -- THIS WILL NOT BE THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE A CLEAN IMAGE. You can do the same, or very similar, by using a manual lens and letting constantly locking and unlocking the camera, by eye, until you see something you like. This 'method' that I'm outlining, which is brief, is how I've gotten repeated and constant results. Please, do not be discouraged to post your findings. The post beneath this one is specifically for that reason, so that I can add your thoughts and methods to the beginning of this thread for everyone else to see.

Alright, stop wastin' my time! Tell me how to get a cleaner image!

After all of that readin' you're gonna be dissapointed with me.

The ONLY thing you need to get a great image is a manual lens, a constant and variable light source and an understandin' (semblance of) what the heck the Camera wants to do and what YOU want it to do; basically what I briefly outlined in the last pair of posts.

That's it. That's all. No matter what method you use, the key ingredient to repeatable results will be a Manual Lens.

After you're done being mad at me, strap on a Nikon Nikkor 50/1.4 (or Similar) and try this:

....1. Without engaging LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode. If you're already in
....... Live View, exit. NOTE: The Viewfinder will automatically disengage the meters
....... (AE-L (hold)) If you wait too long. The original time is four (4) seconds. You
....... can set the time-limit to a longer length by going to: Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.
....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.
....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.
....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.

If you did this right, you should be able to point the camera at an underexposed area (little shadow, etc) with the lens wide open and see very little to NO noise at all. If I had to guess, this is ISO 200 ~ 320.

What just happened!? OMG CLEAN

You just told the Camera what the perfect exposure for your shooting scenario was. And, because it was already AE-L (LOCK)'d before you switched over to LV, it didn't have time to backtalk you.

Here's the breakdown.

....1. You told the camera that, at f5.6, this certain amount is what I want to be exposed perfectly.
....2. The Camera, because it was AE-L (LOCK)'d prior to, doesn't have more than a second to look at the wall and adjust the shutter speed before the AE-L kicks in and denies it a chance to move the ISO higher. This is my theory. I would like others to look at it and tell me if what I'm seeing is true. I have a reason for not being sure about that I outline in the next section: how to get slightly Higher ISOs.
....3. By using a Manual lens, you do NOT have to switch out of LV mode and ruin that exposure or ISO setting. You can now open the Iris up or close it however you see fit.

And there you have it. A Clean D90 Video Image.

Wait! Wait! What about EV (+/-) values!?

They don't matter. Try it for yourself. No matter which you set it at the result is always the same. The EV step only seems to matter if you plan on lettin' the camera do the walkin' and talkin' for ya. If anyone else trying this method sees differently please post so that I can see what you're seein'. I want to make sure that the info is out there and, even if it's not a total understandin' (blame it on Nikon's d90 Manual) at least it's SOMETHING.

To me it looks like this: The EV just does not matter unless you don't care what ISO you're at. The being locked before it can think beyond Shutter Changin' negates the effects of the EV Step.

That's it, people. Go try it for yourself. And, next, I'm going to lay out how to adjust your shutter "pseudo-manually" through the manual aperture, how to get the camera into slightly higher ISO ratings for when you need them without jacking the auto ISO up to the 800's and beyond and theorize on ways to do this on set and in a repeatable fashion.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 02:10 PM
SECTION FOUR




Theories on d90 ISO Adjustments

After another day of testing what does and does not happen on this camera I think I've managed to figure a way to adjust, through the means of a manual lens, ISO ratings in increments. Along with that, the shutter speed simultaneously. I would like to invite other d90users to test this and see what they come up with. All information is welcomed, I'll validate it before putting it in this post. Thanks in advance.

So, with understanding (or slightly so) how you only give the camera, when using a manual lens, the time to quickly adjust ISO and Shutter when moving into Live View mode with AE-L (hold) engaged, how do you apply that knowledge to achieving repeatable ISO and shutter levels in the future? Here's what I've been able to do.

1. Acquire a fifty (50) percent gray surface or find a constant shadow that looks exposed to about that.
2. Manual Aperture Lens

This section will apply to a low shutter ( 1/30~1/60) and ISO adjustment increments.

Following the process outlined here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1398587&postcount=3 -- What you'll want to do is throw the camera on a tripod (for this experiment specifically) so that you can have a constant plane to return to. By engaging the manual aperture it looks like, for each stop or half stop increment, in conjunction with the quick lock method or "Stop that you dang camera!" method you can almost pick your ISO.

.... 1.4 ~ 2.8 = 200 ~ 320ISO
.... 4 ~ 5.6 = 400 ~ 640ISO
.... 8 ~ 16 = 800 ~ 1200ISO
.... 16 ~ beyond = 1200+ISO

By using a shadow to expose for your ISO you still keep the camera's auto-shutter at a low speed, somewhere around 1/30 ~ 1/60.

Adversely, if you wanted to do this with a high shutter-speed then you would, I'm guessing (yet to confirm) use a white card instead. So that the source is bright and the very quick auto-function picks this up and declares that the camera needs a faster shutter to control the light. ISO should still remain relatively low, if not the same "guesstimates" above. I would like for other d90 users to try and report on what they find as well!

ando
09-10-2008, 02:11 PM
[some head room here]






i think price should be somewhere in there
you said you'd pay any amount of money on any dslr with video if it's better but not all people can do that

Kholi
09-10-2008, 02:18 PM
That's true, Ando. You're absolutely right. If anyone else feels that I should add price as a pro I will.

My thought is that, while the price is nice, it doesn't really tie into understanding the camera or reasons to keep it. It's more like an excuse, which is cool to. But, I'm sure there are a few people getting rid of their d90's because of the video being less than stellar.

Again, if anyone thinks I should include that, I will.

Working on [very basic] explanations on how the camera's D-Movie mode operates.

ando
09-10-2008, 02:29 PM
My thought is that, while the price is nice, it doesn't really tie into understanding the camera or reasons to keep it. It's more like an excuse, which is cool to. .

good or bad it also depends on what other options are for what price

anyway good luck at that explanations section
it would be the first

stoiqa
09-10-2008, 03:02 PM
"480p Example: Flowers by stoiQa -- Speaks for itself"

...actually the clip is 1280x720, 419.86MB :)

Thx buddy, you nailed it!

Kholi
09-10-2008, 03:15 PM
Corrected!

Park Edwards
09-10-2008, 03:47 PM
screen grabs would be MUCH appreciated in the near future of your setups

Kholi
09-10-2008, 04:00 PM
What do you mean, Car3o? What setups?

Park Edwards
09-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Menu functions I suppose?

Kholi
09-10-2008, 04:22 PM
Sure. I think Ando posted the link up to menu functions, I'll copy and paste it.

Park Edwards
09-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Yeap, that's what I was going to refer to next.

gmoe
09-10-2008, 04:59 PM
Kholi-

You are always on the front line!! Much appreciated. Just wanted to double check since it wasn't mentioned in the first post and it may be mentioned in the reserve spots-- Is the recording time limit still five minutes? How far were you able to push the recording time? This may have already been stated in the super, super long thread on the D90 but I didn't want to sift through a hundred or so posts.

Thanks for all your hard work! To you and the first users of the D90. :)

Gmoe

Kholi
09-10-2008, 05:02 PM
Five minutes at a time. However, there's no extended limit. It just means you can't record more than five minutes straight. Once you hit your five minute limit you can hit record again and start all over again.

Let me add that to the list.

Drew Ott
09-10-2008, 05:08 PM
Nice write up. Thanks for all the hard work.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 06:53 PM
Updated.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-10-2008, 07:04 PM
It's time to boss the D90 around an force it to hand over some clean, low-ISO imagery... ready?

...Yes.

Park Edwards
09-10-2008, 07:14 PM
Kholi great write up so far. Gotta a question. You say once you go to live view your settings practically get erased, have you tried holding the button down at the same time you click to live view? Maybe tricking the camera? Just a thought that if you hold the exposure lock down as you click to live view might keep the settings.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-10-2008, 07:23 PM
That would be insane if that were the case...I doubt it though.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 07:27 PM
Kholi great write up so far. Gotta a question. You say once you go to live view your settings practically get erased, have you tried holding the button down at the same time you click to live view? Maybe tricking the camera? Just a thought that if you hold the exposure lock down as you click to live view might keep the settings.

Yup, tried it. First thing that I did was attempt to hold AE-L and LV mode, nothing. It's a temporary gap in the camera's functions that reset it, sadly. So all the work you did on controlling exposure is lost.

However... after playin' around last night with a wall and a light, I think I really do get how to make this thing behave properly on a consistent basis. More to come.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-10-2008, 07:33 PM
Looking forward to it Kholi.

sparkle_and_fade
09-10-2008, 08:26 PM
kholi,

in the raw train footage, your D90 was locked down right and you got the rolling shuttle warble due to the train's vibration, right?

Drew Ott
09-10-2008, 08:32 PM
That wasn't Kholi's footage.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 08:43 PM
kholi,

in the raw train footage, your D90 was locked down right and you got the rolling shuttle warble due to the train's vibration, right?

Sorry, wasn't my footage but that's probably right.

I need to post that the footage doesn't belong to me. =P Silly me.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 09:35 PM
Le Update

Dingos8mybaby
09-10-2008, 09:36 PM
Awesome job and many thanks Kholi...:beer:

Limited recording time aside, do ya think we'll see any short films, or, gasp, even micro-budget narrative features, from this little beast? :shocked:

John Sandel
09-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Kholi, so far your primer is well done. Nice and clear. I'm grateful for your hard work (& Zak's, & Drew's, & John Caballero's Ö) sussing this thing.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 09:51 PM
Awesome job and many thanks Kholi...:beer:

Limited recording time aside, do ya think we'll see any short films, or, gasp, even micro-budget narrative features, from this little beast? :shocked:

Without a doubt, man. Another man's "limitations" is the next guy's challenge. That's all it is.

Please, do not look at the limited recording time as a set back either. Unless it's documentary or talkin' heads, then you have a problem. Otherwise the 5 minute time (with added cooling on the camera) is fine.

f64manray
09-10-2008, 09:57 PM
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thanks for all the hard work you've done on this Kholi. I'm just going to wait and see what Canon releases as the new 5D before I decide, but I think the D90 will suit me for web based music videos.

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE PINNED!

Kholi
09-10-2008, 10:10 PM
No~o problem. Thanks to Zak, Joe, Drew, John, Norbert, Mad, stoiQa and Ando ( ! ) for the input on experiences. Everyone else as well.

Gonna keep updatin' and hopefully get some new video up asap. That and more pictures to go along with the sections.

Index as well!

John Sandel
09-10-2008, 10:51 PM
What about this LyteCap doodad someone posted in the looong thread?

http://www.lytecap.com/

Does anybody (who's becoming conversant with the D90's quirks) think this may be a convenient tool to fool the cam's brain into behaving?

Ö Kholi?

Kholi
09-10-2008, 11:05 PM
That looks like it might work. The problem is that it would have to be able to fit to many different lenses or you defeat, once more, the interchangeable feature of the camera.

Does anyone know if it does? Perhaps now is the time to pitch something more universal, like a light hood.

My own thought was something easier, but I need to test it out before I can say that it works.

ando
09-10-2008, 11:18 PM
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thanks for all the hard work you've done on this Kholi. I'm just going to wait and see what Canon releases as the new 5D before I decide, but I think the D90 will suit me for web based music videos.

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE PINNED!


well "trusted" sources say 5D will have video, the type not confirmed yet, price ~2600 euro, will be announced officially on 17th

f64manray
09-10-2008, 11:35 PM
well "trusted" sources say 5D will have video, the type not confirmed yet, price ~2600 euro, will be announced officially on 17th

What are the odds do you think it might at least have a audio "in" jack for $2,000+ dollars and fully manual controls since we're specualting?

They're really going to have to offer more than the D90 at that price point, but I fear Canon will cripple it to keep their camcorder line sales safe. Nikon has nothing to lose by going full steam ahead and making the best camera possible in the future once they see the demand for the D90 in certain circles.

cacophony
09-10-2008, 11:41 PM
Maybe I missed something Kholi, but if I put my D90 in manual mode, and then turn the aperture ring of my 50mm 1.8 lens (and get the EE error), it won't let me engage live view mode.

Do I need a non-cpu lens? Your write-up made it sound like this lens would work:
http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/ProductDetail.page?pid=2137

SaNTi
09-10-2008, 11:43 PM
Great write up and much appreciated.

Here is my deciding factor... Is the camera "usable" handheld while recording video, or is a tripod a must?

ando
09-10-2008, 11:44 PM
What are the odds do you think it might at least have a audio "in" jack for $2,000+ dollars and fully manual controls since we're specualting?


i have no idea about controls but the audio jack i'd say 99.9% it won't happen

Park Edwards
09-10-2008, 11:48 PM
is it just me, but find it silly so many people want audio in their camera's? you do that, you raise the price. sync sound, cut the price in half.

Kholi
09-10-2008, 11:49 PM
Maybe I missed something Kholi, but if I put my D90 in manual mode, and then turn the aperture ring of my 50mm 1.8 lens (and get the EE error), it won't let me engage live view mode.

Do I need a non-cpu lens? Your write-up made it sound like this lens would work:
http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/ProductDetail.page?pid=2137

Right You need a Non-Cpu lens. For one with a CPU you have to do this:

1. Aperture Priorit mode
2. Put the Lens @ F22 or Auto Mode
3. Set the Aperture with the Aperture Wheel on the front of the camera to f5.6 or 8 (electronic aperture)
4. Activate LV mode while pointing at the source
5. THEN unlock the wheel to engage the manual Iris. It'll throw an error but it's fine for recording.

That should do it. :D

Kholi
09-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Great write up and much appreciated.

Here is my deciding factor... Is the camera "usable" handheld while recording video, or is a tripod a must?

A tripod is not a must. But you need something to weight the camera down or stabilize it.

Glidecam 3000
Red Rock Shoulder Mount (You don't shoulder mount it, though. You hold it out by the grips in front of yourself. Works like a CHARM. See me using this method here: http://vimeo.com/1696848 )
Monopod would be nice
Tripod
And just wait til someone gets it on a Jib. :D Imagine the lightweight jib support you can use on this sucker

Lots of great possibilities that will always include great DOF.

cacophony
09-11-2008, 12:09 AM
Right You need a Non-Cpu lens. For one with a CPU you have to do this:

1. Aperture Priorit mode
2. Put the Lens @ F22 or Auto Mode
3. Set the Aperture with the Aperture Wheel on the front of the camera to f5.6 or 8 (electronic aperture)
4. Activate LV mode while pointing at the source
5. THEN unlock the wheel to engage the manual Iris. It'll throw an error but it's fine for recording.

That should do it. :D

Thanks! At what point should I AE-LOCK? Before I go into Live View Mode or immediately after?

f64manray
09-11-2008, 12:15 AM
is it just me, but find it silly so many people want audio in their camera's? you do that, you raise the price. sync sound, cut the price in half.

For the most part I agree with you, but for this singer songwriter I would like to get some live performances, and I would like to run a mix with about three or four sources mixed down into the camera live.

For the music videos, that feature of course won't matter.

I was going to buy a DVX100, before the D90 came out. I'm thinking the DVX100 could be considered antiquated pretty quickly within the next couple of years. I think a barrier has just been crossed with the D90. Other companies will probably be folowing on the D90s heels very shortley. Any thoughts? I'm still trying to make a decision. I don't think I've seen video out of the DVX100 looking as good as some of the stunning samples I've seen form the D90 over the last week. The picture quality is the most imortant factor. I guess I can work around the audio limitation. Just one more thing to learn.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 12:20 AM
Thanks! At what point should I AE-LOCK? Before I go into Live View Mode or immediately after?

Before you enter LV mode the same. I'm gonna explore the same technique that I used the first time to see what the difference is, because both work, just the new one is easier.

ekai
09-11-2008, 12:28 AM
Right You need a Non-Cpu lens. For one with a CPU you have to do this:

1. Aperture Priorit mode
2. Put the Lens @ F22 or Auto Mode
3. Set the Aperture with the Aperture Wheel on the front of the camera to f5.6 or 8 (electronic aperture)
4. Activate LV mode while pointing at the source
5. THEN unlock the wheel to engage the manual Iris. It'll throw an error but it's fine for recording.

That should do it. :D

Kholi, I can get full manual iris on an AF lens on my D700, what I did was put a piece of scotch tape over the contacts on the lens. No more EE error. Will this technique work with the D90? If so it could make things easier.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 12:33 AM
Kholi, I can get full manual iris on an AF lens on my D700, what I did was put a piece of scotch tape over the contacts on the lens. No more EE error. Will this technique work with the D90? If so it could make things easier.

I was JUST thinkin' about how to do that. Is there harm done to the lens or body with the scotch tape or any dangers? Man, thanks a lot. Sometimes the simplest solutions go right over my head.

That'll make usin' AF lenses a breeze.

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 12:36 AM
For the most part I agree with you, but for this singer songwriter I would like to get some live performances, and I would like to run a mix with about three or four sources mixed down into the camera live.

For the music videos, that feature of course won't matter.

I was going to buy a DVX100, before the D90 came out. I'm thinking the DVX100 could be considered antiquated pretty quickly within the next couple of years. I think a barrier has just been crossed with the D90. Other companies will probably be folowing on the D90s heels very shortley. Any thoughts? I'm still trying to make a decision. I don't think I've seen video out of the DVX100 looking as good as some of the stunning samples I've seen form the D90 over the last week. The picture quality is the most imortant factor. I guess I can work around the audio limitation. Just one more thing to learn.

Kholi said he wouldn't get rid of a DVX for the D90, but, that's personal taste, it just so happens I'm selling a DVX...let me know if you made up your mind.

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 12:37 AM
I was JUST thinkin' about how to do that. Is there harm done to the lens or body with the scotch tape or any dangers? Man, thanks a lot. Sometimes the simplest solutions go right over my head.

That'll make usin' AF lenses a breeze.

Woudn't you still not be able to change the aperature on those lens, everything is electronic.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 12:41 AM
Woudn't you still not be able to change the aperature on those lens, everything is electronic.

Sorry, Ai-S. I get the lens types confused. Way too much. Although I think some AF's also have Manual aperture control as well. You just have to snap a switch down while rotatin' the ring.

ekai
09-11-2008, 01:22 AM
Nikon lenses get confusing when it comes to the name game. It seems everyone is pretty much up to speed with the AI and AIS lenses so here is what I know of AF lenses.

AF- This is the old style auto-focus lens. It uses the motor in the body to turn a screw which then focuses the lens. These have manual aperture rings.

AFI- Similar to AF lenses except that these lenses have a motor built in. Not to be confused with AF-S, these are not as fast and just as loud as AF lenses. These have manual aperture rings.

AF-S- These are Nikon's silent wave motor lenses. Motors inside the lens adjust the focus but are almost silent and in some cases much faster than the older AF or AFI lenses. There are a few AF-S lenses that have aperture rings the ones that do not are labeled "G" lenses.

G- No manual aperture ring. Aperture is controlled within the camera.

ekai
09-11-2008, 01:38 AM
I was JUST thinkin' about how to do that. Is there harm done to the lens or body with the scotch tape or any dangers? Man, thanks a lot. Sometimes the simplest solutions go right over my head.

That'll make usin' AF lenses a breeze.

I don't believe there is any harm done to the camera, I actually came up with this idea when photographers wanted to add a teleconverter to a lens with a maximum aperture of F5.6. By putting a piece of tape on certain contacts the teleconverter won't tell the camera about the one stop loss of light, because af cameras won't auto focus if it thinks its too dark(so you are basically cheating the camera).

I thought scotch tape would be good because its plentiful, easy to rip small enough to cover the contacts(I wouldn't want any excess cause mounting it may cause a stray piece to fall into the camera or lens), and it is not all that sticky with very little residue making it easy to remove after shooting.

buildyo
09-11-2008, 02:36 AM
I think it's totally acceptable as far as 480p goes ....
Vimeo's native display is about 480 ...


Kholi just to clarify this, when you say 480p you mean 853 x 480 right? I ask because Vimeos default display size is 360p (i.e. 640 x 360).


Thanks for all your good info on this camera!

Kholi
09-11-2008, 02:52 AM
Kholi just to clarify this, when you say 480p you mean 853 x 480 right? I ask because Vimeos default display size is 360p (i.e. 640 x 360).


Thanks for all your good info on this camera!

Yurs. You're right about the vimeo thing, as well. Changin'! The original said "about 480", I think it's close enough to consider. DL the file though and scale to 480. Still looks plenty good.

Neal Buconjic
09-11-2008, 03:09 AM
Welcome back, Kholi!

Nice write up. I've been debating which DSLR to pick up. I think I just found it.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 03:14 AM
LoL Thanks, Neal. Dunno how long I'm back but back for a few, at least!

=P D5 might make mince out of my work and social life if it includes 1080p features. Whew boy.

Let me know when you get your D90 if ya pick it up, du~ude.

Norbert
09-11-2008, 03:24 AM
Once you hit your five minute limit you can hit record again and start all over again.Does it reset live view as well so you have to redo all your settings after 5 minutes?


-- Dynamic Range/ Latitude: The highlight handlin' on this camera is delicious. Not to mention that, here again-- despite the compression, the image holds up quite well when applyin' grades and corrections. It's quite simply a dream as far as Latitude goes, and I'll worry a lot less about blow outs because they're silky, unlike the harsh discolored blowouts of larger prosumer cameras.The highlights are sweet, but shadows seem to be very black in most clips I see... black as in crushed. Is there a way to make them a little more neutral in camera?

buildyo
09-11-2008, 04:48 AM
DL the file though and scale to 480. Still looks plenty good.

I actually did that before and thought it looked good just wanted to hear your opinion :dankk2:

Another question:
To get low ISO you close the arperture on the manual lens, aim the camera at the white wall, you lock the exposure, then enter Live View and then open the arperture manually.

Does this noise free setting stay when you leave LiveView and reenter it. It should but who knows if it really does. It would be a pain if your procedure has to be repeated every time Live View is left.

Edit: Just saw that Norberts question is somewhat related.

frisco
09-11-2008, 08:19 AM
You might be alone on this one....Remember this is a DSLR....People want/pay for convenience.....

You wouldn't believe how many $8000 Canon 1dsMll and lll's are sold to amateurs with exotic lens.

No still guys are going to want separate syc sound. They just want to plug in a mic, wired or wireless.

There seems to be about 4 different price points for dslr's. People are already accustomed to paying big money for still gear.

frisco



is it just me, but find it silly so many people want audio in their camera's? you do that, you raise the price. sync sound, cut the price in half.

cacophony
09-11-2008, 09:56 AM
So I finally got this trick to work with my 50mm 1.8 lens. But I'm not really seeing the point yet because I get the same noise free results in low light by just leaving everything in auto mode and opening the lens up to 1.8.

So maybe the easiest "trick" of all is just to shoot wide open with a fast prime in a low light situation?

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Stoiga has the best low light footage to date.

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 10:16 AM
You might be alone on this one....Remember this is a DSLR....People want/pay for convenience.....

You wouldn't believe how many $8000 Canon 1dsMll and lll's are sold to amateurs with exotic lens.

No still guys are going to want separate syc sound. They just want to plug in a mic, wired or wireless.

There seems to be about 4 different price points for dslr's. People are already accustomed to paying big money for still gear.

frisco


Sorry, yes I see your point. But I'm referring to anyone who uses the audio professionally. Not a point and shoot kind of guy.

ando
09-11-2008, 10:43 AM
this audio talk is really offtopic

pro audio is recorded externally. d90's mono would perfectly sync as many tracks as possible. reporters will have to look elsewhere for a camcorder, not for d90

Kholi
09-11-2008, 11:56 AM
Does it reset live view as well so you have to redo all your settings after 5 minutes?

The highlights are sweet, but shadows seem to be very black in most clips I see... black as in crushed. Is there a way to make them a little more neutral in camera?

It doesn't reset liveview. Chances are, however the camera will auto-shut-off.

Picture Controls will help the heavy contrast. People have to just start adjusting them.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 11:57 AM
I actually did that before and thought it looked good just wanted to hear your opinion :dankk2:

Another question:
To get low ISO you close the arperture on the manual lens, aim the camera at the white wall, you lock the exposure, then enter Live View and then open the arperture manually.

Does this noise free setting stay when you leave LiveView and reenter it. It should but who knows if it really does. It would be a pain if your procedure has to be repeated every time Live View is left.

Edit: Just saw that Norberts question is somewhat related.

You do have to repeat it every time you exit LiveView. Which is why we need a solid solution, or repeatable solution. A dimmable light source or a few different shades of grey?

Kholi
09-11-2008, 12:00 PM
So I finally got this trick to work with my 50mm 1.8 lens. But I'm not really seeing the point yet because I get the same noise free results in low light by just leaving everything in auto mode and opening the lens up to 1.8.

So maybe the easiest "trick" of all is just to shoot wide open with a fast prime in a low light situation?

Not a trick, honestly. Just tellin' the camera what to do.

And, the idea is to not get noisefree at 1.8, but at other apertures.

I have yet to see a noisefree images, even shooting wide open, without locking the exposure down. In the shadows I can clearly see crawling grain. Not until I actually expose for a specific stop do I get clean shadows.

Noise, remember, is less likely to show in light areas. Look at your darks.

Madmanden
09-11-2008, 12:15 PM
The highlights are sweet, but shadows seem to be very black in most clips I see... black as in crushed. Is there a way to make them a little more neutral in camera?
I'm not sure, but since you can use custom color curves and what not, it seems it should be possible.

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 12:23 PM
Kholi, you have a printer? Instead of stopping down the lens, print out "shades of grey" on card stock and point the camera at that and determine which shade of grey suits what needs.

Thebes
09-11-2008, 12:23 PM
So I finally got this trick to work with my 50mm 1.8 lens. But I'm not really seeing the point yet because I get the same noise free results in low light by just leaving everything in auto mode and opening the lens up to 1.8.

So maybe the easiest "trick" of all is just to shoot wide open with a fast prime in a low light situation?

I got my D90 yesterday evening.
I am definitely getting different ISOs doing the Kholi trick vs just shooting wide open in very low light situations. Haven't had a chance to play with it in daylight yet, but last night tricking the camera made for video that would be usable, whereas shooting it auto at f1.4 was just too noisy (14 watt consumer CF for medium sized room).

Kholi
09-11-2008, 02:19 PM
Kholi, you have a printer? Instead of stopping down the lens, print out "shades of grey" on card stock and point the camera at that and determine which shade of grey suits what needs.

This is exactly what I was thinkin'.. Sometihn' like grey cards. I'll have to see if it works, though.

It should! And this would make life easier in a real shootin' environ.

stoiqa
09-11-2008, 02:25 PM
Stoiga has the best low light footage to date.

It gets kind of tricky,as you have to find intermediate points of light to lock the exposure.Not to dark,because it will overexpose...had some fun otherwise.thx

kevm14
09-11-2008, 05:33 PM
So people have had luck using an AF lens with aperture ring (such as the 50mm 1.8D)? On my D70s, once I mount the lens, the lever contacts the body and the aperture opens up. That's with the aperture set at f/22 when I mount it. Unlocking the ring and turning it up to f/1.8 does nothing. Does the D90 behave differently? Or do you unlock the lens and open it up before mounting?

stoiqa
09-11-2008, 06:05 PM
I tried this with D40 and D90.With 75-300mm you`ll have to lock the lens to f4.5, and leave it there.

If the lens is not locked, cameras will pop-up a msg, that you have to lock the aperture, and picture process will be disabled. Even after mounted, if you`ll try to unlock, the same message will pop-up.

AF lens specialist input on this matter will be more than welcomed.

I was "forced" to do the editing in Premiere Pro, as Vegas is not recognizing the entire set of clips. What I mean by that, you have 40small clips in one folder just copied from D90.

You open the clips, and you drag them down to the time line, only 35% of them are showing up. Sound looks ok for all, but on video side most of them are missing.

Donít know if this is a codec related problem, however in Premiere and AE they work just fine.

dave12781
09-11-2008, 07:07 PM
Just got my D90, can't for the life of me figure out how to lock the exposure. Press AE-L once... nothing stays locked. What the hell am I doing wrong?

Kholi
09-11-2008, 08:37 PM
Not readin' that manual. ;D

Go into the menu under the "pencil" icon, selection F, assign AE-L/AE-F function, choose AE-L (LOCK)

dave12781
09-11-2008, 09:40 PM
Ok so... I've screwed around with this thing for a few hours now, and you CAN lock the ISO speed... not sure about the shutter yet (I need daylight to determine that).

It is simple. Set your ISO speed, press AE-L, then Enter LiveView Mode. If you're in LiveView, exit LiveView, unlock AE-L (by pressing the button), set your ISO speed, press AE-L again, re-enter LiveView.

I don't think Exposure Compensation determines shutter speed, but it is a useful tool to adjust before shooting, and it won't effect your exposure setting. Simple press and hold the PLAY button and select up or down.

More to come.

dave12781
09-11-2008, 09:41 PM
BTW... the setting in the menu you want is AE-L Hold.

dave12781
09-11-2008, 09:43 PM
I'm getting my best looking images at ISO200. DO NOT think this works as if it were a normal video camera... settings have to be locked before you're in LiveView.

Rolling Shutter sucks, but I honestly can't think of a reason why I'd ever use a shot that was filmed within the camera's limitations.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 09:50 PM
You can't lock anything before you go into Live View mode... Anything you've done, for a split second, even if you lock it before hand, is erased prior to entering.

Test it by: putting the camera on a tripod, pointing it toward a constant shadow and adjusting your ISO.

If your ISO is higher then you'll see more grain and you'll have a brighter image. I'm pretty sure you won't see a change once you put it in a steady position, point it toward a shadow, don't touch the aperture and only change ISO.

I invite ya to try it. And, if it does work, then I have a faulty camera because it's doing nothing for me. Anyone else?

Also, there's a video clearly showing that the Exposure Values do effect the shutter speeds in Auto modes. Once it's locked you can't adjust anything.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 09:55 PM
BTW... the setting in the menu you want is AE-L Hold.

Right about that. It's AE-L (Hold)

Gotta change that. Been sayin' lock allthis time.

esmoore
09-11-2008, 10:33 PM
You can't lock anything before you go into Live View mode... Anything you've done, for a split second, even if you lock it before hand, is erased prior to entering.


I just uploaded a video that demonstrates adjusting aperture manually with a D (AF lens), the 50mm f1.4D.

http://www.vimeo.com/1715441 (http://www.vimeo.com/1715441)

BTW, Kholi thanks for writing all you have about getting more out of the D90. I've learned a lot from your posts.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 10:45 PM
Lookin' good.

It looks like the light is adjusting, is the AE-L (hold) on?

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 10:52 PM
In another post someone compared the D90 with the HVX and Kholi you said that if the HVX had an adapter it'd be a better comparison. To me, not really. You take an HVX out of the box it's not going to have an adapter, it's an accessory, where the D90 out of the box doesn't need that extra accessory. Another thing, is that with all the other camera's aren't you stuck at one ASA? Where at least with the D90 you can trick it into a better ISO. Even though we can't fully control it, at least we can show better lowlight footage than most DV cams. So 2 major downfalls are the rolling shutter and the lack of shutter control.

Kholi
09-11-2008, 10:55 PM
That's another way to peer at it, Car3o and I don't disagree, either. In that case, I think that the HVX vs d90, the HVX clearly exceeds the image quality but with a better-dialed-in d90 that could change. Also, if it needs to be said: the HVX also costs thousands more and doesn't feature an interchangeable lens system either.

Guess that means I need to finish up the fourth part of this here thingy and do a 200A and d90 side-by-side.

Park Edwards
09-11-2008, 11:20 PM
Definitely, it has to seeing how it's 3k + more. The HPX500 or the RED better be better than the HVX

min lee
09-11-2008, 11:23 PM
Kholi,
if you do a side by side, can you please show some lowlight and dynamic range comparisons? Thanks!

Norbert
09-12-2008, 12:14 AM
...and please, some detail comparison too. It would be nice if you could shoot trees, foliage and stuff... real world detail.

ando
09-12-2008, 05:27 AM
suggestion when locking exposure (taken from photo usage)

- when matrix sets its value 5 factors are evaluated: focus sensor, distance from the lens when available (D lenses), overall brightness, colors and contrast
- if you have a D lens not only the area under the current focus sensor is given a priority but the 3d depth as well. the whole current DOF is put in good exposure (hence the name 3d matrix metering)
- highlights very out of focus if small enough may be overexposed in situations when the camera can't properly expose focus areas.

so when you lock exposure think about this in order to get a very fast good lock for your scene and subjects. video mode's matrix probably works in a similar way

kevm14
09-12-2008, 06:51 AM
I don't think Exposure Compensation determines shutter speed, but it is a useful tool to adjust before shooting, and it won't effect your exposure setting. Simple press and hold the PLAY button and select up or down.

More to come.

That's just the display brightness. Check the recording to verify.

esmoore
09-12-2008, 11:17 AM
Lookin' good.

It looks like the light is adjusting, is the AE-L (hold) on?

It is on. I found this strange as well, and not sure what is causing it. Obviously, the aperture change has some effect on light level, but the camera is doing _something_ to make small adjustments. I took the aperture ring all the way from f1.4 to f22 (8 stops). The camera doesn't have this much range, so it's compensating with either ISO or shutter speed or both, even though AE lock is on.

I'm new to video, but a seasoned DSLR user.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 01:37 PM
It is on. I found this strange as well, and not sure what is causing it. Obviously, the aperture change has some effect on light level, but the camera is doing _something_ to make small adjustments. I took the aperture ring all the way from f1.4 to f22 (8 stops). The camera doesn't have this much range, so it's compensating with either ISO or shutter speed or both, even though AE lock is on.

I'm new to video, but a seasoned DSLR user.

Strange indeed. Have you set it to AE-L (hold)? I don't get any small adjustments when I do this. Gonna have to record here soon. Was waitin' til free time this saturday to do some explanation videos.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-12-2008, 01:43 PM
Would that not be the gain/ISO trying to auto adjust the scene exposure? At this stage I thought that element was still uncontrollable, which almost makes sense since this is the first time I have seen somebody change the aperture during recording. I bet if you left it at an f/4 for example, and panned around, the exposure would stay the same, assuming you are in AE-L hold.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 01:48 PM
Right, I think the AE-L (hold) on esmoore's Camera is on "press and hold". The Exposure Adjustmet looks like it's jumpin' aroud because it's not actually locked.

Andrew, did you get your camera yet

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-12-2008, 02:04 PM
It should arrive Monday or Tuesday...You'll know. :beer:

Kholi
09-12-2008, 04:27 PM
Fourth post updated with some thoughts. D90 Users try this and tell me what you get.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-12-2008, 04:49 PM
Great idea Kholi, too bad their isnt a way to lock these in as a preset or something, that way when you do it once, every time you go to shoot all you have to do is adjust aperture.

In your post, are you saying that shooting at different apertures automatically adjusts the shutter speed and ISO for you? Like saying their is no way to shoot at an f/11 at 1/60 shutter and 200 ISO?

Kholi
09-12-2008, 05:03 PM
Great idea Kholi, too bad their isnt a way to lock these in as a preset or something, that way when you do it once, every time you go to shoot all you have to do is adjust aperture.

In your post, are you saying that shooting at different apertures automatically adjusts the shutter speed and ISO for you? Like saying their is no way to shoot at an f/11 at 1/60 shutter and 200 ISO?

I'll update the post but basically, if you're at 200 ISO by using a 1.4 aperture, set by a 50 percent exposed shadow, afterward you have the freedom to use the manual aperture as you see fit.

Naturally, that means that there's a lot less light for you to work with. But, it doesn't stop you from engaging any smaller apertures by any means at all.

Adversely, a faster shutter can be employed on a wider aperture. You would simply use a bright source, stop the iris down to about, say f5.6? And aim it at the bright source. The shutter will adjust properly and I think you should have a relatively low ISO.

More expermineting soon.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-12-2008, 06:01 PM
So basically you could just use the aperture to adjust how the wall or gray card or shadow, etc exposes, and then lock that in and change the aperture to the desired stop? I didn't know that after you set the ISO and used the AE-L (hold) that the ISO and gain wouldn't continue to change based on the light levels...

Kholi
09-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Exactly. The thing is, once you go back to this: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1398587&postcount=3

You'll see that you engage AE-L (hold) before you even go into LV (Live View) mode. Once you're in live View you don't touch AE-L (hold) at all. Unless you want to go back to auto mode. You point the camera at the 50 percent grey (example) by looking through the viewfinder eyepiece and then engage Live View.

So, set your desired ISO and Shutter with the method outlined, THEN use your aperture for desired DOF or to control exposure. Chances are you're gonna be employin' external filters with this sucker.

That's fine, though.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 07:01 PM
got me confused....

1. Without turning on LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode.
2. Turn on AE-L (LOCK)
3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit.
5. Activate LV mode.

Once this LV activated,aren`t you gonna lose the AE-L?

Kholi
09-12-2008, 07:05 PM
You do, for a split second. Once LV has kicked in (1 second) AE-L (hold) re-engages on its own. So, switching from Viewfinder to LV doesn't turn AE-L (hold) off at all. The second that it takes to full engage is how you lock the camera, or it locks itself, before it can do anything insane with the ISO and shutter.

Try it out.

Andrew Brinkhaus
09-12-2008, 07:11 PM
Awesome. That will probably be the first thing I try!

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 07:35 PM
super ISO results here...works

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 07:45 PM
What lens are you using ?

Kholi
09-12-2008, 07:47 PM
Nikon 50/1.4 here. :D

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 07:57 PM
Works...clean image here.. .:dankk2:

Took some exercise....erased most of the previous msg.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 07:59 PM
Does the Pseudo-ISO control work out? And, if so, what kind of solutions do you think would be viable for a full-blown shootin' situation?

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:08 PM
I do prefer the Kholi method better.....it`s faster and you get to use the situation that you are in.
Time ..and to get the shoot,two important factors.Have you tried getting trough Lo and Hi and see the results?

I like it at 200 and 320,looks very nice and clean,but it`s like playing PS3,if ya`know what I mean:)

I wonder how will handle outside.....

Kholi
09-12-2008, 08:10 PM
What do you mean Lo and Hi? ISO? LoL, a little confused. I thought we established that actually adjusting the ISO manually didn't work? Am I missin' somethin'?

Also, I like it at 200 ~ 320 as well. There will be situations that call for clean and others that can benefit from ISO noise/gain/grain. Just gotta select (which isnt' an easy task) which one works best.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:12 PM
For a studio controlled situation...second method will work wonders...and gives you time to exercise

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:15 PM
200 ~ 320 isnt manual adjustment?...confused me again.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 08:19 PM
Yeah I'm confused on what method you're talking about? LOL. Probably because I need sleep. Zzzzzzzz

Alright, so what second method are you talking about and have you tried this:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1398589&postcount=4

This is just an extension of the original ISO/Shutter lock thing I outlined.

Are you, again, saying that you've found a way to dial in ISO at will? By going through menus, I mean/

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:21 PM
see what you are saying...

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:32 PM
I`ll need a tripod...

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:45 PM
but this is almost the same thing...only that you are doing it from the ring...

the problem with this though...you don't have the light intensity from the sun.It may act like 200 on 400 etc....but when outside, you`ll have light intensity changes all the time.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:49 PM
Also the trick to get Ae-L to show up locked on LV, is to set it up, and press LV while Ae-L shows on viewfinder.I believe is 2 seconds.

If info on viewfinder goes off, you`ll have to do it again.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 08:49 PM
I can do it without a tripod. The tripod is just to learn how to do it. Also, I know what you mean, I'm not sure if that'll effect using a 50 percent grey card to set a low shutter exposure. That's the suggestion I'm giving out right now.

Grey Card or printing out some greys to test out, mounting them to a board or something like that.

And, yes, lol. the AE-L (hold) thing about pressing it before you go into LV is outlined in the third post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1398587&postcount=3
I see what you're sayin' about the AE-L going off if you aren't ready to switch. Looks like it has a five second cut-off time.

Good info. Need to put that up

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 08:56 PM
You`ll have to mention that stays "on" for a few seconds...otherwise they will still fix the ring:)

Kholi
09-12-2008, 08:57 PM
You`ll have to mention that stays "on" for a few seconds...otherwise they will still fix the ring:)

Yup! Gonna mention that RIGHT now. Didn't even notice that one myself. Thanks duuude.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 09:00 PM
Ha! Found out how to stop it from turning off so fast:

Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.

Up to 30 Minutes before it turns off if you want. Set my own to 1 minute. Updating the method.

Thebes
09-12-2008, 09:16 PM
Fourth post updated with some thoughts. D90 Users try this and tell me what you get.


OK, I haven't played with this yet but I see an issue.

The D90 doesn't "know" what the aperture is on an AI (fully manual) lens. Some Nikons mate with that funny metal foot on the lens, but the D90 (and lesser cameras) don't. So the values you are estimating are based entirely upon the amount of light entering the camera for you at those apertures. This will obviously vary depending on the lighting and surface.

I think it would be helpful to measure the actual amount of light... using a meter, or by metering with the camera itself off a photographic grey card. This would be a fairly simple control, and then we could work up a chart where we know a certain amount of light (Exposure Value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value)) on that grey card equals a certain known ISO / Shutter if we enter LV with that grey card filling the frame. Removing lighting and surface variables should = consistancy.

ISO could, maybe, be gaged by measuring the noise in a video still and comparing it to the noise in a small low quality jpg taken at known ISO... again all of the grey card.

Speed could be measured with the tv trick mentioned in the mother of all threads.

I'll see if I can play with this some later tonight.

Kholi
09-12-2008, 09:20 PM
OK, I haven't played with this yet but I see an issue.

The D90 doesn't "know" what the aperture is on an AI (fully manual) lens. Some Nikons mate with that funny metal foot on the lens, but the D90 (and lesser cameras) don't. So the values you are estimating are based entirely upon the amount of light entering the camera for you at those apertures. This will obviously vary depending on the lighting and surface.

I think it would be helpful to measure the actual amount of light... using a meter, or by metering with the camera itself off a photographic grey card. This would be a fairly simple control, and then we could work up a chart where we know a certain amount of light (Exposure Value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value)) on that grey card equals a certain known ISO / Shutter if we enter LV with that grey card filling the frame. Removing lighting and surface variables should = consistancy.

ISO could, maybe, be gaged by measuring the noise in a video still and comparing it to the noise in a small low quality jpg taken at known ISO... again all of the grey card.

Speed could be measured with the tv trick mentioned in the mother of all threads.

I'll see if I can play with this some later tonight.

Hey Thebes,

The aperture's relationship to the d90 is only important to the user in getting the ISO and Shutter to a desired place. The d90 and the Aperture of a manual lens doesn't matter, correct.

If someone has the tools to measure that would be great. I'm puttin' the theory and info out there, but I do not own the proper tools to actually measure down to the bit. I think you're right in line with what I'm thinking, though, and a Grey Card (or grey Card(s)) would be best.

Everything I'm doing is by eye.

Wish I could help more! :D If you could drop the information for me I'll put your findings at the beginning of the thread.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 09:37 PM
You`ll get your light with card no.1,that gives you Iso200 inside.Then you`ll take card no.1 in daylight,and you`ll find out different values.

Camera does not have a reference on the grey card.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 09:40 PM
so...is shutter speed directly related with Iso? Can we get just longer exposure times, without lots of grain?

shinyrobot
09-12-2008, 09:44 PM
I can't seem to get the AE-L to lock. I hold it down and it stays locked until I let it go. I have held it for various times, no luck. I am in manual mode (M). Anything I am doing wrong? I try to turn on LIVE MODE with the AE-L held down and nothing as well. It always just turns off when I left go.

Hmmmm.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 09:47 PM
I can't seem to get the AE-L to lock. I hold it down and it stays locked until I let it go. I have held it for various times, no luck. I am in manual mode (M). Anything I am doing wrong? I try to turn on LIVE MODE with the AE-L held down and nothing as well. It always just turns off when I left go.

Hmmmm.

Tip Kholi :Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

Kholi
09-12-2008, 09:48 PM
Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > f (controls) >> Assign AE-L/AF-L Button > Ae lock (hold) > Ok

I'll update the post to outline this as well.

stoiqa
09-12-2008, 09:51 PM
Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > f (controls) >> Assign AE-L/AF-L Button > Ae lock (hold) > Ok

I'll update the post to outline this as well.

Now everyone will know how to lock their camera:-Laugh(DBG):

Kholi
09-12-2008, 10:06 PM
Now everyone will know how to lock their camera:-Laugh(DBG):

LoL. Done and Done.

wes
09-13-2008, 08:25 AM
Not sure if this has been asked yet....

Do you have to keep the LCD on the back on while shooting video? I know the video uses Liveview to record the image but can you turn it off and just use the viewfinder for video?

John Caballero
09-13-2008, 08:37 AM
Do you have to keep the LCD on the back on while shooting video? I know the video uses Liveview to record the image but can you turn it off and just use the viewfinder for video?

It only records with LCD (Liveview) on.

wes
09-13-2008, 08:49 AM
lame...what a battery waste.

Spybreaka
09-13-2008, 08:57 AM
Wes, you cannot use the viewfinder as the shutter is open the whole time you are filming. Thus the LCD is the only way of seeing what you are recording - hence it is on the whole time.

evilfoxhound
09-13-2008, 09:03 AM
Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > f (controls) >> Assign AE-L/AF-L Button > Ae lock (hold) > Ok

I'll update the post to outline this as well.
So does that mean that you have to keep the lock button held for the entire shot duration? Or just when you press the record button (Sorry if this has been asked before)

wes
09-13-2008, 09:05 AM
Wes, you cannot use the viewfinder as the shutter is open the whole time you are filming. Thus the LCD is the only way of seeing what you are recording - hence it is on the whole time.

yeah should have thought about that. This whole video slr thing still has me weirded out. Cant decide whether to get one or not.

kevm14
09-13-2008, 09:05 AM
lame...what a battery waste.

Considering the only way to get light to the sensor is for the reflex mirror to flip up, I don't see how that's "lame."

dave12781
09-13-2008, 09:22 AM
Made an interesting d90 observation... everyone probably already knew this, but... you can move the red box on the LCD around, and it will auto expose to whatever is in the box.

Thebes
09-13-2008, 11:57 AM
I didn't know that. But given how jerky the auto exposure is, it doesn't seem very useful.

I made a D90 observation too, last night while looking at a Pre-AI lens which I thought was AI'd soley because it fit without binding. Well, it wasn't AI'd, and it did bind, very very slightly on a tab on the outside of the lens mount. Nothing was broken, and I think the lens could probably be used without damaging the camera... which shouldn't be the case... but I'm not going to push my luck. Beware that its easy to mount a Pre-AI lens, and if you break that tab's switch its a really bad thing.

stoiqa
09-13-2008, 05:44 PM
Sticky on this thread? THX

Kholi
09-13-2008, 05:58 PM
It might help. A lot of redundant questions going on.

Park Edwards
09-13-2008, 06:15 PM
Anyone know if you can lock exposure?

Illkane
09-14-2008, 01:36 AM
Hi,

My first post here.

Please see here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146661

SECTION 2 -- A breakdown of D-Movie "mode" features instructions on how to Lock Exposure and what's available in D-Movie Mode

It seems quite easy.

Regards,

f64manray
09-14-2008, 09:38 AM
I think Car3o was just being a wise guy. ;-)

Park Edwards
09-14-2008, 10:22 AM
lol...dammit busted!!!

cacophony
09-14-2008, 10:52 AM
Can someone explain to me why you don't have full control over shutter speed and ISO while using a lens that the D90 can't meter through (AI lens, for example) ? If the camera can't meter, why would it be making ISO or shutter adjustments ?

dave12781
09-14-2008, 11:44 AM
Can someone explain to me why you don't have full control over shutter speed and ISO while using a lens that the D90 can't meter through (AI lens, for example) ? If the camera can't meter, why would it be making ISO or shutter adjustments ?

We're all hoping that the Nikon will release a firmware upgrade that will allow you to control the ISO and more importantly the shutter before entering LiveView Mode. It's a little heartbreaking right now... only thing to do is bug Nikon about updating the Firmware for the camera, and hope they do it.

Unless you are a programmer/hacker who wants to hack the camera's firmware for everyone. :-)

Thebes
09-14-2008, 11:54 AM
Can someone explain to me why you don't have full control over shutter speed and ISO while using a lens that the D90 can't meter through (AI lens, for example) ? If the camera can't meter, why would it be making ISO or shutter adjustments ?

Rather than thinking of D-Movie as an adjunct to the still photographic features of the D90, realize that it is a feature tacked onto Live View. Live View chooses a CMOS shutter speed and ISO to allow for a reasonable preview image for the still photographer's picture, rather than using the ISO, mechanical shutter speed, and aperture that are set chosen for the actual making of the still image. D-Movie is a quick and simple way to record that stream of info from Live View.

murcott
09-14-2008, 02:52 PM
i have a quick question.. i rember reading this somewhere else but i could have mis-read it. Are u able to save the settings as a preset? Once u cheat the and lock camera into the low iso and shutter setting. Is there a way to save the setting?

John Sandel
09-14-2008, 06:19 PM
Rather than thinking of D-Movie as an adjunct to the still photographic features of the D90, realize that it is a feature tacked onto Live View. Live View chooses a CMOS shutter speed and ISO to allow for a reasonable preview image for the still photographer's picture, rather than using the ISO, mechanical shutter speed, and aperture that are set chosen for the actual making of the still image. D-Movie is a quick and simple way to record that stream of info from Live View.

This is hands-down the best, clearest explanation I've read of why D-Movie mode is so peculiar. Thank you! Somebody should give you a raise.

cacophony
09-14-2008, 09:49 PM
This is hands-down the best, clearest explanation I've read of why D-Movie mode is so peculiar. Thank you! Somebody should give you a raise.

I agree. With all the noise, it's refreshing to see such a concise yet insightful explanation. Bravo Thebes! :beer:

Fliques Osman
09-14-2008, 11:15 PM
I don't know if its been mentioned or not but thanks for taking the time to post all that great info Kholi (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?u=10937). Greatly appreciated.

All the best,

Manny

buildyo
09-15-2008, 01:54 AM
Another Nikon D90 low noise receipe:

http://d90movie.blogspot.com/2008/09/nikon-d90-low-noise-recipe.html

fahreza
09-15-2008, 03:29 AM
Thankyou Kholi and everyone for sharing such important and useful information. I do not own a D90 but am interested primarily because of the D-movie feature. I've read the other thread, the one with over 250 pages, and this, I've learned a lot and now I know what to expect (and what not to) from the camera. I am planning to save some money and someday buy this D90, in the meantime, I will just learn from you good people. Thank you again...

Illkane
09-15-2008, 12:26 PM
Thank you Kholi, I'm happy to see someone trying to get the best from D90 D-Movie feature whereas many others just throw it away...I'm eager to buy it in France, but I'm still worried because of Wobbles and still could change my mind... Anyway, I have asked to Nikon France on its web site if a future firmware will fix wobble...wait and see.

Well, let's go back to business. Even if I don't have D90 in my hands I have a suggestion to do about focusing in D-Movie mode. This idea ruins the low depth of field but allow not to have to focus continously and could be a good trick for noob (like me):
Set focal and aperture and focus at hyperfocal distance or near so that you have sharpness from half the hyperfocal to infinity.

It is also possible to tweak this by focusing before hyperfocal and set a depth of field corresponding to the length of the room where kids are running indoor.
For example, with the help of http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html:

With the 18-105 mm VR lens : at 18 mm and f8 and focusing at 1.5m you have sharpness from to 0.9m to 4.75m So no need to focus if kids running inside this sharpness window.

I have launch this idea in dpreview forum, but no body was interested to talk about the interest or not to use hypefocal. They just said that it is not a good idea to use it at main video camrecorder. Well, I still hope...

What do you think of that idea of hyperfocal?

Bye

d90man
09-15-2008, 02:52 PM
SECTION THREE


DISCLAIMER (9:28 PM PACIFIC) -- No matter what method you use, the key ingredient to repeatable results will be a Manual Lens.

After you're done being mad at me, strap on a Nikon Nikkor 50/1.4 (or Similar) and try this:

....1. Without engaging LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode. If you're already in
....... Live View, exit. NOTE: The Viewfinder will automatically disengage the meters
....... (AE-L (hold)) If you wait too long. The original time is four (4) seconds. You
....... can set the time-limit to a longer length by going to: Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.
....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.
....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.
....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.




Hey guys, this is a great resource. Im so glad someone is taking their time to share all this info. I just recently got the D90. I want to get a 50mm lens that you've mentioned. The new ones are the AUTO/MANUAL ones, as opposed to some you can get on ebay which are only manual. I was going to get a 50mm anyway, but it was going to be the auto/manual one until I read up on this stuff here. Can I still get the same results with the auto/manual lens as with the full manual lens? Is the only nuisance that I have to "reset" it when going back out from LV mode after shooting video?
Thanks!!!

Thebes
09-16-2008, 01:11 AM
Someone had suggested that taping over the pins on the lens might get rid of the nuisance of needing to exit and re-enter Live View with AF lenses that include an aperture ring. Many new AF lenses don't have aperture rings, though the 50mm f1.8D does.

With an older lens, make sure its really AI or AI-s, not a Non-AI which has been partly converted. There is a switch on the outside of the camera's lensmount at about 8 o'clock as you look towards the lens from in front of it. If the aperture ring presses down on this switch at all while mounting, the lens it is probably unsafe to use. Its pretty easy to "convert" these yourself with a file and a jeweler's screwdriver... while I did mine I also ground out the detents for the aperture so I have a nice smooth iris to adjust while shooting.

dUNIT
09-16-2008, 10:49 PM
Ha! Found out how to stop it from turning off so fast:

Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.

Up to 30 Minutes before it turns off if you want. Set my own to 1 minute. Updating the method.

So this means that you can record up to 30 minutes straight instead of the 5 min limit?

fahreza
09-17-2008, 08:57 AM
So this means that you can record up to 30 minutes straight instead of the 5 min limit?

it's a method to set a longer delay before the AE-L(hold) is disengaged after exiting live view, see http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1398587&postcount=3

MikeyPOTG
09-17-2008, 10:39 AM
Quick question, as I'm on the verge of buying one.

When you lock the exposure for video mode... do you have to go through the menu each time to adjust it when you want to switch back and take still photos?

Thebes
09-17-2008, 12:24 PM
Quick question, as I'm on the verge of buying one.

When you lock the exposure for video mode... do you have to go through the menu each time to adjust it when you want to switch back and take still photos?

When you set up the AE-L button to lock and hold exposure, to change the function of this button requires going back into the menu. BUT, turning exposure lock on and off only requires pressing the button to toggle the feature. I certainly don't bother to change how the button works when I use the camera for still photos.

ando
09-19-2008, 12:55 AM
http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=150&topic_id=221412&mesg_id=221412&page=

i like the train one

stoiqa
09-19-2008, 09:02 AM
http://www.wppionline.com/index.taf?_function=bignight

el presidente
09-19-2008, 01:53 PM
I got my d90 today..sunny all day(unusual in england at the moment)..spent most of the day driving round the geographicaly displaced camera emporiums looking for a manual lens( aint it funny how theres seldom prices on them)..anyway I got a 28mm 2.8 (not the best)..by the time i got back it was getting dark so my only tests was using 60 watt lightbulbs(which really suck with the stock lens)..that 28mm though,- looking nice...cheers kholi n tribe.

One thing I found which I really dont like is the "waves" I get from artificial light. Noticed it in shop then again at home..got me worried as I had only seen a small amount of this on vids on vimeo...I wonder if you get more of this in 50hz countries...anyway using stock lens doing the "kholi method" I add that you should point at the midtone to set exposure(there always seems to be those waves)...move the camera around the midtone source untill there will be a moment(i know this doesnt sound very scientific)..it seems to cycle through some sort of modes cos the waves dissapear...then lock exposure...no more ugly waves.
ps I have this on my jib with a cambo head and it looks stunning..and Its mounted on rails with grips n folow focus...what a crazy looking beast ive made...Just to add..it all looks smooth with smooth camera movement(obvious really).


I hope this makes sense/helps anyone else.

bearing
09-20-2008, 11:35 AM
Maybe the D90 choose a shutter of 1/50 when the waves disappeared.

ando
09-20-2008, 12:57 PM
some videos here
http://dcbbs.zol.com.cn/6/657_554228.html

the color chart test (imatest) seems badly done. i doubt there is over 130% deviation in colors.
at imaging-resource i don't remeber seeing more than 120% on any camera. d80 had a ~103% so i really doubt they knew how to take those shots. d300 isn't off either and d90 is supposed to be a very similar or the same sensor.

el presidente
09-20-2008, 02:24 PM
Maybe the D90 choose a shutter of 1/50 when the waves disappeared.


Could be right there any body else in pal land have experience...and does this happen in ntsc land?

cacophony
09-20-2008, 09:46 PM
I have a question regarding the theory that ISO is determined largely by chosen aperture:

I just shot 20 secs of ocean footage at the beach today. I was very bright out (about 3pm) and the stills I shot right before were properly exposed at about ISO 200 , F10 , 1/1250 sec. I was in "A" mode so I'm guessing ~F10 was used for the 20 seconds of video footage.

Anyways, I just looked at the footage and it's very very noisy. At least I think it's noise (animated graininess in parts of the image). So based on the 4th post in this thread it sounds like a high ISO was chosen by the camera because I was using F10. But I don't understand how the camera could possibly be deciding to crank the ISO up in this case! After all, my properly exposed stills were ISO 200 at 1/1250 sec!

So maybe it's just really bad compression artifacts and not noise? Can anybody shed some light?

Kholi
09-20-2008, 09:48 PM
My thought is that the small aperture made the camera thing it needed more light? Hmmm.

cacophony
09-21-2008, 12:35 AM
My thought is that the small aperture made the camera thing it needed more light? Hmmm.

With a small aperture the camera does need more light. But in bright daylight with a fixed aperture, how can the camera possibly bump the ISO up without causing insanely quick "shutter" speeds (1/10,000 sec, 1/20,000, etc)? Remember, my still shot was already using 1/1250 sec at ISO 200. So if the camera where to bump the ISO to 1600, the "shutter speed" would need to be 1/10,000 sec to keep the overall exposure the same.

Maybe the video mode uses the sensor in a very different way that has drastically different exposure values than if you're shooting stills?

Spybreaka
09-21-2008, 12:58 AM
I'm curious as to the general consensus on the low-light capabilities of this camera.. is shooting indoors without a proper lighting setup a realistic prospect as it seems to be with the Canon 5D MK II or should one expect a large amount of noise on this camera?

scoemlek
09-21-2008, 10:44 AM
Does the Rolling Shutter effect always occurs?

ando
09-22-2008, 04:06 AM
only when you shake it or pan with the camera. the faster you pan the better you'll see it

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

mattmurdock123
09-22-2008, 01:49 PM
I've read each post on this thread but may have missed the answer but when I attach my AF lens to the d90 I get no LiveView at all and a flashing f EE message. I've tried adjusting the aperture as outlined in the thread but no go. Is this lens not compatible with the d90 or is it I who may not be compatible.

Thanks for the excellent thread and good advice and Kholi's nice outline.

Matt

natxbrotha
09-22-2008, 02:43 PM
Can you output via HDMI to a video monitor while you record?

Spybreaka
09-23-2008, 07:16 AM
Just picked up a D90 yesterday. This camera is pretty amazing. The jelly/rolling shutter is a little annoying but easily overlooked once you see the image quality this thing can push out in such low light. Very film-like, very impressive, and in such a small package. Definitely going to tide me over until the next 24p DSLR comes out with full manual control.. or a firmware update for that matter.

natxbrotha: Well I'm waiting on a mini-hdmi cable, but AV out gives liveview on the TV, so I'm assuming so. If the hdmi-output is any good, I would say that we could get about a 90-95% cropped image out of the thing, the overlays are only in the edges and the focus box can be turned off.

mattmurdock123: I've got an AF lens with manual aperture adjustment, however mine has one of those aperture lock switches and needs to be set to the smallest aperture for it to be recognised by the camera and allow me to enter liveview mode. Once in there, however, I can adjust aperture freely.

evilfoxhound
09-23-2008, 08:15 AM
I have a quick question:

Can having a slower SD card make the footage have a lower bitrate?

The reason I ask is because I have seen raw, from-the-camera footage from several different people and some videos showed at lot of compression artifacts and some didn't. I was thinking that maybe they were using different cards.

Spybreaka
09-23-2008, 08:27 AM
evilfoxhound: What sort of compression artifacts are you talking about? Varying ISO values may result in more grain which could explain these artifacts. Also, quite often the direct downloads on vimeo have been re-encoded so they are not really direct-from-the-camera.

evilfoxhound
09-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Actually, I don't think that what I am seeing is compression artifacts now. Upon closer inspection I think that it's resizing/scaling that i'm seeing. It seems more noticable on videos that have a lot of detail. The begining of this video is a good reference:

http://www.vimeo.com/1794162

As far as I can tell with this video, the AVI download is the original, raw file (I could be wrong). But other videos I have downloaded from other sites were labeled as direct from camera. They also had this horizontal "stair-stepping".

I really wanted to get this camera next week, but every video I have seen has that flaw in the detailed parts (Worst on green things like bushes and grass). Rolling shutter I can overcome, no auto-focus I can overcome, bad sound I can overcome. But this is something which I cannot correct, which is a shame :(

Spybreaka
09-23-2008, 09:36 AM
Unfortunately the stair-stepping is a reality. In the few clips I've taken it has not been especially obvious, but it is definitely present. I do not plan to use this camera for film in a professional capacity so it's something I can deal with - if you do, however, it might be a dealbreaker. Yet another thing we might hope for Nikon to fix with firmware (though probably less likely than manual control).

On the upside, this camera really does have amazing low-light capabilities. Compared to my HV20 it's miles ahead and the footage is so naturally film-like.. if only they had put a little more effort into getting it right.

mattmurdock123
09-23-2008, 10:50 AM
mattmurdock123: I've got an AF lens with manual aperture adjustment, however mine has one of those aperture lock switches and needs to be set to the smallest aperture for it to be recognised by the camera and allow me to enter liveview mode. Once in there, however, I can adjust aperture freely.[/QUOTE]

Spybreaka

Thanks for your response. My lens goes to 32 and I was fixated on 22. As soon as I went to 32 the LiveView came alive.
Thanks again

Matt

Spybreaka
09-24-2008, 03:21 AM
No probs matt!

Tested the HDMI output today. Looks like the frame is actually cut off on the sides, cropped almost to 4:3. Oh well :/

Edit: Well 4:3 might be an exaggeration - it's sort of 13:9.

Also, I noticed weird behaviour with the camera when hooked up via hdmi. After playing around a bit it kept on turning off live-view and then refusing to output to hdmi for a while. Perhaps that's just the safety shutoff of liveview? I wasn't using it for more than about 10-15 minutes though.

jimjam
09-24-2008, 03:41 PM
Hi guys, total noob here....contemplating buying a D90. What is the battery drain like using DMovie? How long could I record video until my standard battery was flat?

Also if I need to be in live view to use dmovie does this if I want to use it purely for video I will effectively be using live view constantly between shots and therefore caning the battery completely?

Any help much appreciated.

BLUESPIDER
09-25-2008, 02:14 AM
Please excuse my ebay ignorance but is this a legit place to buy the D90?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-D90-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-5-Lens-Extreme-Kit_W0QQitemZ290262937848QQihZ019QQcategoryZ31388Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If so, I'm going to have my friend order the kit for me. I don't need the other stuff but the price seems pretty decent. Thanks

evilfoxhound
09-25-2008, 08:23 AM
I got the camera today after much thinking. I needed a new DSLR anyway so I just went ahead and got the D90. The Video is just a cherry on top of an already superb DSLR.

Anyway, after messing around with the video all afternoon I have a few little conclusions:

I find that the obvious jaggies (stair-stepping) render footage useless for sharp HD videos.........

However, as I suspected, you can turn the sharpness down. So I turned the sharpness down to zero and shot some videos. The harsh jaggies are a lot less obvious and much more subtle. Still not amazing but better. You are probably wondering "why the hell would I want super-soft HD videos!!??". I will answer......

I'm a huge fan of 70's films especially 16mm or super8 stuff. When I make short films I usually add a little blur with grain to give a small-gauge film feel. I think that it gives short films an "other world" look.

So, after tinkering with my soft D90 footage in After Effects, adding a little more blur (Gaussion Blur 2.0) and some Magic Bullet grain. I have found a look that I have fallen in love with. I have results wich have the look of 16mm/Super8 but with the DOF of 35mm film (With rich colours too). For me it's perfect for the types of shorts that I make.

So there you have it. I think that the D90 is perfect for people like me who like to alter their footage to get some certain looks. however, f you want crisp HD footage it's really not the right choice.

szornyeteg
09-25-2008, 02:20 PM
Dear Kholi,
Doing the kind of empirical research that you did is a great experiment, so thanks for all your efforts. Maybe I've missed something, but there're a few things I do not get about your guide and the logic of the steps you describe. The second step you describe in section three is:

....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.

Once you lock your exposure values the camera doesn't, cannot change them right? You're in manual mode, so aperture, exposure and ISO settings are all locked. So when you continue:

....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8

Well, do you mean that until this point you have the lens full open? And what might that be? Are you assuming f2.8 or f2 or f1.4? Depending on the original aperture all you seem to be doing is underexposing your image by 2 to 5 stops. From f1.4 to f8 it'd be 5 stops (letting through 1/32 of the original light) from 2.8 to 5.6 only two stops (1/4 of the original light).

....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.

Well, but by this time, the exposure has been long locked! So what's the point? No matter what you point your camera at the setting WILL NOT change. Or am I missing something in understanding the AE-lock function?

....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.

Okay, so you open up the aperture again for controlling your highlights. Fine. But how are you going to expose your video clip? How will you set your aperture given that exposure and ISO are already set for good and have been since step 2?

I think (but please correct me if I'm wrong) I understand your real intention. You're trying to fool the metering system of the camera in an intelligent and predictable way. The metering (i.e. spot metering) will aim for a mid-grey scene (18%). So if you put in front of your camera something four times as bright (i.e. having a reflectance value of 72% - quite close to the 60% you suggest), in other words not a grey card but a somewhat dirty white card then the camera will assume that your scene is actually a bright one and will give you a lower ISO/higher exposure combination.

This of course assumes that you haven't yet locked your exposure.

Now if you "fooled" your metering by two stops then for correct exposure you have to open up two stops - so if you've measured for f5.6 then you'll have to shoot with f2.8.

So much for the theory.

But then I just simply do not get your conclusion:

....1. You told the camera that, at f5.6, this certain amount is what I want to be exposed perfectly.

IMO you did not such thing. When you're camera is in manual mode (especially with an old manual lense!) the only way for you to control if you're having correct exposure or not is the histogram. Or a spot meter.

....2. The Camera, because it was AE-L (LOCK)'d prior to, doesn't have more than a second to look at the wall and adjust the shutter speed before the AE-L kicks in and denies it a chance to move the ISO higher. This is my theory. I would like others to look at it and tell me if what I'm seeing is true. I have a reason for not being sure about that I outline in the next section: how to get slightly Higher ISOs.

Again, I do not get what you're saying. The program of the camera doesn't "think" on a second scale but on a millisecond scale. Plus do not forget, that with your manual setting you could have set up - for all I know - exposure at ISO 1600, f5.6 and 1/1000 sec. And then you push AE-L and LV? Don't tell me that if you do this fast enough, the camera won't be able to "react" fast enough and do what? Lower the ISO? Lengthen the exposure?

....3. By using a Manual lens, you do NOT have to switch out of LV mode and ruin that exposure or ISO setting. You can now open the Iris up or close it however you see fit.

See my point above. I simply do not see, how a - basically - fully automatic movie mode could be "fooled" to preserve settings from a fully manual mode. The whole point of the manual mode being that you can set up anything, heavy overexposure or underexposure.

I'm shooting a short test "commercial" tomorrow with the D90 so I can get back to you with some results. But I'd definitely like to hear more from you, because so far I have the feeling that your empirical results may work, but your reasoning is flawed.

Cheers,

Szornyeteg

stoiqa
09-25-2008, 09:13 PM
my suggestion is to take it gradually(one-by-one on clicks), lock it and see what is gonna work for you...

Kholi
09-25-2008, 11:59 PM
szornveteg --

You're thinking about it a lot more than I did. The point of that is to make sure you get an acceptable shutter and ISO rating. You wouldn't control your exposure with anything in a real world situation with anything other than NDs and external lighting techniques. Same goes for this one, even worse being that it lacks manual functions.

It's only to get a low/slower shutter and low ISO rating.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146661 -- Check the title of the section. It's about cleanliness and a low shutter, NOT about exposure. How you choose to get proper exposure is up to you. But, you're reading it the wrong way.





I'm shooting a short test "commercial" tomorrow with the D90 so I can get back to you with some results. But I'd definitely like to hear more from you, because so far I have the feeling that your empirical results may work, but your reasoning is flawed.

Cheers,

Szornyeteg

Shoot with it then get back to me.

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 01:00 AM
I have an innocent question. :)

Re :

.... 1.4 ~ 2.8 = 200 ~ 320ISO
.... 4 ~ 5.6 = 400 ~ 640ISO
.... 8 ~ 16 = 800 ~ 1200ISO
.... 16 ~ beyond = 1200+ISO

Is this any bearing then on other posts or discoveries at all about what constitutes a "clean image" or "acceptable amount of gain/grain". Obviously it is quite subjective, and different lenses etc.

But assuming we are talking about a 1/30 1/60 shutter speed, If the camera is capable of 100>3200 + 6400 + imaginative isos based on a bunch of gain... Is the statement above indicate that an iso beyond 1200 is unacceptable? Or just that that is the max at that shutter speed it can be tricked into?

I only ask because today I got my first ED lens, (mainly been using AF, occasional AF-S) and the camera refuses to talk to it in anything but manual mode. Ok. Refuses to go into LV without the aperture right. ok. BUT different than the AF lenses, it refuses to accept any auto or easyiso iso adjustments in picture mode and of course any thumbwheeled aperture. The ONLY thing you can adjust is the shutter speed + the iso (not auto) in the menu.

So liberated, I set a shutter speed, cause I only have the manual choice. Set an iso manually, thats all I have. Lock it, enter LV, then I am manual apeture only adjusting!!! So it leads me to the question with that lens...

What is a reasonable iso before it injects a bunch of gain? I am talking low light of course still.

One way I guess would be open the lens wide open, then choose the least iso that gets me enough light popping in and out of lv. Short dof. well ok.

But it would be nice to leave it on an iso and say 1/60 shutter and then just use the aperture to guide if I have enough light, but still a clean image?

I presume it is reliant on the sensor. To me it seems like I could set an ISO of 6400 on my D700 and it barely was noticeable, vs the d90. Of course the FX sensor comes into play. So back we are again.

What are people finding when they are doing low light, for them is the iso limit at these shutter speeds of a "clean" image?

Its tempting to beleive that nikon labelling anything above 3200 strangly on the d90 and anything above 6400 on the d700 strangly, means those are the "
inject gain" limits. But it could just be marketing...

Sorry if this is clear as day and I'm not getting it. This lens has thrown me from a "trick the iso" to pick it in a menu, and lock it iso, near as I can tell... And its on the basis its not willy nilly pumping the iso above what you select in picture mode before you lock it, since there is no auto iso range for this lens... Nice if whatever you set as the max in that menu translated to LV mode... I presume not...

I'm from a "throw more light at it" background, and now want to be, "screw the lights" how low can we go without a nasty image.... wannabe ;)

Cheers

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 04:55 PM
Ah. Yet again D90 lv mode has a mind of it's own. Changing the ISO in the menu is the only way to get ED glass to behave. And yes, changing shutter speed affects it in still. But yet again. Even locked, once in LV, they don't mean a damn thing :(

So back to all the exposure tricks and shutter speed tricks. I guess the question about what is the max iso people use to still have a clean image still stands, but more inline with the tricks, vs any kind of direct correlation.

I still want to get it nutted before I start filming something creative. I don't want "unclean footage" :(

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 07:45 PM
I think I am finally getting it with exposure tricks. Only thing I dont quite get, is why use grey cards?
When you press the info button on the back while in still mode, it gives you the iso reading. And when you take a still shot, it gives you the exposure histogram.

So with a manual lens like ED. It only pays attention to manual mode, and a manual iso anyway. So all trickery aside to use this lens in still mode, you HAVE to set a reasonable ISO anyway, to even make use of the post-shot metering.

So set manual, your shutter 50, set your aperture manually mid-range, then set your iso ; whatever figure you think its unlikely to add grain to, and take a shot. Check the histogram. If you are under/off, point the camera light or dark, etc, snap again, check the histogram... So long as you have the exposure right, its not underexposed, then its not injecting gain (and it cannot adjust iso or shutter speed that you've set at that point in manual still mode) - so you lock it, head into LV, go for your life with manual apeature..

For AF lens, even easier. Set auto iso. Set manual mode. Set your shutter. Whilst pointing the camera around, hit the info button. Check the back display for a live iso reading as you go light/dark etc. Found the one you like, lock it in, head into LV...

I know the iso is not being taken into lv mode, but is it a constant that goes with shutter speed and aperture in manual mode?, that you can get an exposure reading on, and based on that iso reading and lock it based on when you know it is/is not going to inject gain?

Unless this is what everyone is doing and they grey cards are only to get a quick consistent result to expose with , I don't see much mention of using the metering to help you hit the iso you want in a repeatable fashion. Surely then the only variable is finding the iso at that shutter speed that injects grain and knowing that is the number you dont want to go above. Either way, in manual mode, if you know the max acceptable iso to you for low light, thats your fixed situation, and use the exposure meter to make sure it is not going to mess with you?

Unless of course locking it while the metering is telling you, yeah yeah shutter is good, iso is what you want, exposure is right (so I am not going to grain you in still mode) - has zero reasonable direct correlation to what it locks in for shutter and iso for lv mode in that instance. But a meter is a meter? Wouldn't what it set just then carry over - and since your shutter speed was fixed when you took the reading, and you were not under-exposed, and you could see the iso it was dreaming up - doesn't it make sense it would not be gaining it up then? - so locked at that, its not going to try once in LV? If it's the same metering tables, then you also have an advantage of knowing the shutter speed got locked exactly...?

I could be way off here, but if someone could correct me or try it, or explain why there is no need I think I am there. And if its right then the variable is fix an idea of the max iso to keep a clean image, then just look at the meter and hitting the lock button, which is pretty easy.

Kholi
09-27-2008, 12:04 AM
I has no idea what you're sayin', Timmy. Haha You're gonna have to sum that up.

But, basically: anything you do before you activate LV is erased for a split second. That's why I say to activate AE-L before you go into Live View Mode.

Also, ISo and Shutter and everything: it doesn't apply to Movie Mode.

fahreza
09-27-2008, 01:13 AM
So, after tinkering with my soft D90 footage in After Effects, adding a little more blur (Gaussion Blur 2.0) and some Magic Bullet grain. I have found a look that I have fallen in love with. I have results wich have the look of 16mm/Super8 but with the DOF of 35mm film (With rich colours too). For me it's perfect for the types of shorts that I make.


Great, this is good news for me, because I won't really need a crisp HD look for what I have in mind (should I decide to buy and use a D90). I thought there's nothing we can do to eliminate the jaggies without manually removing them. This makes sense for me. 16mm look is okay. Would love to see a sample of your footages.

timmytimetravel
09-27-2008, 08:24 AM
I has no idea what you're sayin', Timmy. Haha You're gonna have to sum that up.

But, basically: anything you do before you activate LV is erased for a split second. That's why I say to activate AE-L before you go into Live View Mode.

Also, ISo and Shutter and everything: it doesn't apply to Movie Mode.

Heh....Yeah, I need to start writing posts off board, summarize and post.. Bad writing habits ;)

Summary. For AFS lenses Have you looked at the lcd screen pressing info, before you go into live view in manual mode, with a manual shutter speed, and auto iso, pointed it around, got an iso you wanted (presuming you think it only injects gain at a certain metered iso) - and used that reading to lock AE-L before liveview. I know they dont carry over, but at that point in still mode you would be telling the camera, don't add grain.
Same thing for manual ED lens, but taking shot and checking the histogram.
Could save grey cards, could mean that a static iso and using the meter/histogram to check could be a solid repeatable science of some sort.

Thebes
09-27-2008, 09:51 AM
I think grey cards and a meter are the way to go. I think we will find that at a given illumination and aperture setting on a flat grey card it will do the same thing everytime.

I have no confidence that it meters the same way in Auto as it does in LV for D-Movie, indeed I have seen people suggest it uses the metering info from the red box area, whereas Matrix metering will use the entire image- matrix metering in still mode is very complex and compares the info from a slew of sensors (plus the distance value with a D series lens) and places that against a large database to determine the best metering- its sort of an artificial intelligence thing. I doubt that it does this constantly during LV to determine what is the best setting to meter a video preview... and thats essentially what D-Movie is recording is the LV preview that was meant as an aid to a still photographer.

Maybe (yeah right!) I'll have time this week to spend a few hours trying to see what it does at a given light level... wish I still had one of my ol' light meters.

timmytimetravel
09-27-2008, 10:30 AM
Bugger. That is going to be no help then. Even changing to something less complex in still mode like spot metering, is no 4sure as you say it is using any kind of spot metering in LV mode. I was kinda hoping the box thing was purely the focus attempt thing for between takes. The setting for normal/wide etc in movie mode. And I notice that the box is gone in Portrait and night portrait in LV mode. That might be a clue or might make a difference. Maybe that would even the playing field...

evilfoxhound
09-27-2008, 12:06 PM
16mm look is okay. Would love to see a sample of your footages.

http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.

Kholi
09-27-2008, 03:01 PM
What lens did you use? Even with the sharpness turned down to just about - (0) my stuff isn't that soft.

Looks soft focused.

evilfoxhound
09-27-2008, 03:20 PM
I added some blur in After Effects because turning the sharpness down in camera does not completely hide the jagginess :( I will find a way to combat it. If it takes me forever lol

I'm going back to the drawing board.

BMFM FILMS
09-27-2008, 07:57 PM
http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.

Woah...that honestly looked like film. The grain really did the trick along with the softness.

Usually people over-push the film look and just ruin it...this was really good...

I am looking forward to a new D-90 next week!!

fahreza
09-28-2008, 12:06 AM
http://www.vimeo.com/1826475

Download it to see it in 720p (With a little bit of compression). It's not a perfect 16mm look but i'm working on it. You can still see some of those damn jaggies on high contrast lines :Drogar-Mad(DBG):.

PS, the download version is quite compressed and the grain looks quite bad. I can assure you that it looks a better uncompressed.


i can't even see the download version. i can only see the one on vimeo. tried to download it and it stoppped halfway, when i tried to resume it asks for passwords and such. will try to download it again, i'm curious...

szornyeteg
09-28-2008, 01:10 AM
Hi Kholi,

I did my shoot where I wanted to combine D90 720p video sequences with downrezzed D90 pixilation. The video sequences were shot at a metro station. Some early morning with only artificial (available) lighting, some later in the day with plenty of ambient light coming through the station's windows.

What I was aiming for did not work out. I mean combining the footage. The qualitative difference is huge and while I could "degrade" the still image sequences in post I didn't want to.

The video sequences were acceptable especially coming from a still camera. What I find the biggest shortcoming, however, is not even the lack of manual control but the absolute lack of information about the settings a certain clip has. Someone has already posted about the histogram (unfortunately not live!, unlike with a Canon) for checking exposure range. That is of course so, but to "trick" the camera in a semi-intelligent way we would need to know what ISO and shutter settings the camera used. This is something I'd bug Nikon with!

I'd like to do more testing, but since I borrowed the camera from a store only for the shoot, right now I cannot.

Cheers,

szornyeteg

p.s.: does anybody know if the Canon 5D Mark II offers manual controls or at least feedback info for video sequences?

BMFM FILMS
09-28-2008, 06:02 AM
i can't even see the download version. i can only see the one on vimeo. tried to download it and it stoppped halfway, when i tried to resume it asks for passwords and such. will try to download it again, i'm curious...

Go to the bottom right of the page there will be a little link for the .MOV (Register for Vimeo, that could be another reason you don't see it...)

I thought it looked like film though many could disagree, it was a good attempt.

Kholi
09-28-2008, 02:03 PM
Hi Kholi,

I did my shoot where I wanted to combine D90 720p video sequences with downrezzed D90 pixilation. The video sequences were shot at a metro station. Some early morning with only artificial (available) lighting, some later in the day with plenty of ambient light coming through the station's windows.

What I was aiming for did not work out. I mean combining the footage. The qualitative difference is huge and while I could "degrade" the still image sequences in post I didn't want to.

The video sequences were acceptable especially coming from a still camera. What I find the biggest shortcoming, however, is not even the lack of manual control but the absolute lack of information about the settings a certain clip has. Someone has already posted about the histogram (unfortunately not live!, unlike with a Canon) for checking exposure range. That is of course so, but to "trick" the camera in a semi-intelligent way we would need to know what ISO and shutter settings the camera used. This is something I'd bug Nikon with!

I'd like to do more testing, but since I borrowed the camera from a store only for the shoot, right now I cannot.

Cheers,

szornyeteg

p.s.: does anybody know if the Canon 5D Mark II offers manual controls or at least feedback info for video sequences?

Told ya man. That's what the guide is for, basically. To get a clean image ,even if you don't know exactly what ISO it's at. I'm basically having to talk myself into keepin' the D90 but will probably end up moving to a 5D MKII myself.

fahreza
09-29-2008, 01:07 AM
Go to the bottom right of the page there will be a little link for the .MOV (Register for Vimeo, that could be another reason you don't see it...)

I thought it looked like film though many could disagree, it was a good attempt.

Thanks, i did exactly that and am already registered at vimeo when i tried it the first time. So anyway, something weird with server connection or whatever. I hope to see more :)

smok3
09-29-2008, 01:54 AM
a. what is the format this thing records? compression? bitrate? ect
b. what are the option for sound recording?

dUNIT
10-03-2008, 10:47 PM
I've read through this thread and I'm yet to find a clear answer to a question that has been asked a couple of times: can you use the AF/manual lenses (like the 50mm 1.8D AF) in the same way as the AIS lenses without doing the taping-over thing?

Please somebody clarify, as I'm in tne process of buying lenses for my D90.

Thebes
10-04-2008, 12:20 PM
I don't have any manual aperture ring AF lenses, but my understanding is that you need to exit and re-enter LiveView after each take unless you tape over the pins if you want to adjust aperture at the ring during your take.

From a price and handling standpoint I would prefer the AI(s) lenses for video, being especially careful to choose the more solid ones like the 50mm f1.4 over the f1.8 because the focus ring is more dampened. Many of these can be found used at excellent prices on eBay and from Keh but do watch that the focus hasn't gotten dried out and gritty over the years.

dUNIT
10-07-2008, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the advice, man.

John Sandel
10-07-2008, 11:00 PM
Go with Thebes. Between him and Kholi, you'll figure out a way to pound this camera into a proper tool.

balaclava9
10-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Right You need a Non-Cpu lens. For one with a CPU you have to do this:

1. Aperture Priorit mode
2. Put the Lens @ F22 or Auto Mode
3. Set the Aperture with the Aperture Wheel on the front of the camera to f5.6 or 8 (electronic aperture)
4. Activate LV mode while pointing at the source
5. THEN unlock the wheel to engage the manual Iris. It'll throw an error but it's fine for recording.

kholi, i don't know if it takes up too much bandwidth to say this, but thanks!!!! worked like a charm and made me happy!

ben wheatley
10-15-2008, 01:02 AM
Wow, i followed the instructions and bought the lens and its brilliant. Thank you so much. If id stuck with the kit lens i would be crying bitter tears of regret! Thank god for the internet. Thank you Kholi.. now to shoot that short!
ben

mhood
10-15-2008, 07:09 AM
Please Ben, specifically what lens did you buy? Full model number please. I have an old (but clean) Nikkor-H.C Auto 1:2 f=50mm lens that fit on my D90 but the aperture ring seemed to bind and would not turn. I took it off and haven't mounted it since.

Thebes
10-15-2008, 03:46 PM
Please Ben, specifically what lens did you buy? Full model number please. I have an old (but clean) Nikkor-H.C Auto 1:2 f=50mm lens that fit on my D90 but the aperture ring seemed to bind and would not turn. I took it off and haven't mounted it since.

Do not attempt to use that lens unless you modify it. That would be a Pre-AI or NAI (Non AI) lens, and if it pushes too hard or too often on the switch it is binding upon you will have a large repair bill. There are instructions on converting Pre-AI lenses if you google, or I've posted links before too. Its not too hard, and given the low value of the lens, its certainly worth a try... I've done 4 of them, they take about an hour of filing and 5 minutes of other work.

For manual lenses, you want AI or AI-S lenses only, Pre-AI might damage the body. Any AF lens will safely fit, but I definitely prefer the functionality of the manual lenses.

Kholi
10-15-2008, 08:55 PM
Glad some of this is helping people and, thanks Thebes, for steppin' in as well!

Lee Wilsons fix should offer some more leverage for the low cost solution, I'm lookin' forward to trying that as well when I get my camera back.

dUNIT
10-16-2008, 08:38 AM
And thanks to you, sir. I tried out a manual 50mm AI lens for my first footage with the D90, using your method of course, and the image is incredible. There is absolutely no comparison between the image u can get w the Koli method next to just locking exposure w an AF lens.

Lammy
10-18-2008, 01:23 PM
I love this camera. It's awesome for video messaging and making lil home videos for sure.

I'm annoyed by the fluorescent/ shutter problem that gives the image a crawling smoke effect though. Any tips on how to quickly resolve it? I have to spend minutes pointing at light sources and locking til the camera auto decides it away :|

http://www.vimeo.com/2000634 My video here has alot of it at the start!

ESTEBEVERDE
10-18-2008, 02:16 PM
I love this camera. It's awesome for video messaging and making lil home videos for sure.

I'm annoyed by the fluorescent/ shutter problem that gives the image a crawling smoke effect though. Any tips on how to quickly resolve it? I have to spend minutes pointing at light sources and locking til the camera auto decides it away :|

http://www.vimeo.com/2000634 My video here has alot of it at the start!

It's the whole 50hz thing yeah?

Osslund
10-21-2008, 02:58 PM
I have done one shoot at work (production house) with the D90 and two different lenses. This was in our studio with 4x4 Kino Flow lights.
When having this much light and taking closeups it locked on pretty quick to 50hz. When lettin the D90 freewheel until the 50hz banding stops and then locking the AE. This is trickier in low light but looks good after you adjust the aperature towards 2.8-2.0.

Park Edwards
10-21-2008, 04:16 PM
I love this camera. It's awesome for video messaging and making lil home videos for sure.

I'm annoyed by the fluorescent/ shutter problem that gives the image a crawling smoke effect though. Any tips on how to quickly resolve it? I have to spend minutes pointing at light sources and locking til the camera auto decides it away :|

http://www.vimeo.com/2000634 My video here has alot of it at the start!

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=149171

This is the only way to get around it for now.

alexphoto
10-26-2008, 05:47 PM
re: the waves of doom / rolling shutter

Just an observation here, I'm no CMOS expert so excuse me if I'm saying something painfully obvious.. generally I've experienced the above problem across an entire image. Nothing odd about that. But recently I did a shoot with an Fluorescent Interfit light and the banding was strange..

In the background, out of focus and underexposed, was a street light. The rolling shutter only seems visible here, and the foreground - which is in focus, and properly exposed - seems to have no sweeping effect at all. A bit strange? Maybe just an optical illusion?

I converted the footage to back and white, changed the levels a bit and now banding isn't visible at all. Worth uploading a few example clips? Or have I missed something stupid here. Maybe my eyes are like the D90's video.

bronxjragon
11-07-2008, 06:41 PM
Anyone know if this lens works with the D90 to get the results Kholi was talking about? Its an AF, dont have money for a MF : (

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/247091.jpg



http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=247091&is=USA&si=rev#anchorToReadReviews

Lee Wilson
11-07-2008, 07:47 PM
Anyone know if this lens works with the D90 to get the results Kholi was talking about? Its an AF, dont have money for a MF : (

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/247091.jpg






Just flip the little switch on the side of the D90 (I have circled in red) - from AF to M - you now have a manual focus lens:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9838/d90zp1.jpg

bronxjragon
11-07-2008, 10:29 PM
Just flip the little switch on the side of the D90 (I have circled in red) - from AF to M - you now have a manual focus lens:

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9838/d90zp1.jpg

Thank you my kind sir

BMFM FILMS
11-08-2008, 08:00 AM
By the way, that lens kicks ass, the one mentioned above me.

I have it, such a shallow DOF, it's ridiculous.

bronxjragon
11-08-2008, 08:13 AM
By the way, that lens kicks ass, the one mentioned above me.

I have it, such a shallow DOF, it's ridiculous.

awesome : ) wish i could afford the 1.4 though

Marz
11-12-2008, 06:07 AM
Hey guys, just got my D90 with kit lens yesterday and after shooting the first movies I've noticed the obvious noise and the 60hz waves. So, just want to thank all you guys for helping each other (including me) in finding all those ways of getting closer and closer to the camera's potential.
I'm not an expert in videomaking neither in still photography but I'll be doing my best to contribute to this great thread.
Cheers mates! :)

alexandroff
12-03-2008, 10:23 PM
just got my D90 tonight. Thank you for this post - saves a lot of time and brings up to speed quickly.

to clarify on the below steps:

1. Without LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode.
2. Turn on AE-L (LOCK)
3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit.
5. Activate LV mode with AE-L still engaged

*A. at the step 5, during that very "second" when LV mode engages we are basically telling the camera to give us the close to desired iso/shutter settings? correct?
*B. as soon as that LV mode is engaged then, these setting stay intact, since we're in AE-L? correct?

----
is there a fixed /better / more exact pattern one can come up with if equipped with a pro light meter and industry standard grey cards?

thanks

alexandroff
12-04-2008, 12:00 AM
and another question:

how is the outcome iso/shutter of the above post different from:
1. set the camera in Manual Mode
2. Activate LV mode (No AE-L yet)
3. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit... or at a point you want it to spot-meter and attempt to properly expose for. Set Iris.
4. Turn on AE-L (LOCK)

?

Park Edwards
12-04-2008, 01:18 AM
with the first method, "kholi's" method, you're basically fooling the camera into setting the iso/shutter. with the second method, the camera is doing all the talking.

i prefer the latter. i haven't had any success with his and just let it auto expose.

alexandroff
12-04-2008, 02:11 AM
it seems that with the latter method that if one

- gets desired iso/shutter settings by using lightmeter, greycards for a given scene
- zooms in, red-boxein etc. on the card and let the D90 auto-expose, then AElocks it.
- get a feel (with experience) for how much the d90 auto-exposure spot metering is off from what light meter told you
- fix as needed by playing with lights

comes down to how accurate is that auto-reading of D90 before one AElocks it and how different it is from what the lightmeter says.
...or maybe its just too much theory thinking on my part...

--
seems that "D-exposure" would be of great help at this time...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=147373
unless we get firmware-lucky which I doubt will happen for these items

mattsand
12-04-2008, 08:46 AM
you can't change the aperture on an automatic lens after entering live view, but with a manual one the second method works great.

/matt

princigalli
12-05-2008, 03:51 AM
Horrible quality. Looks like something out of a Blackberry phone. If you want DSLR video you'll be a lot happier with the Canon 5D. Canon footage has its problems too but at least it' very decent when used right.

mattsand
12-05-2008, 04:30 AM
i posted a stupid remark before that i deleted, but to put it less bluntly: when i go to germany i don't make jokes involving the phrase "heil hitler". sometime you're just supposed to keep things to yourself.

Vertical
12-05-2008, 04:49 AM
I have a question about Kholi's method in general that I don't believe has been mentioned.


...1. Without engaging LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode. If you're already in
....... Live View, exit. NOTE: The Viewfinder will automatically disengage the meters
....... (AE-L (hold)) If you wait too long. The original time is four (4) seconds. You
....... can set the time-limit to a longer length by going to: Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.
....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.
....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.
....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.


I understand it is beneficial to always AE-L regardless of lighting, but is there a benefit to doing steps 4-6 when you are outside on a bright sunny day? Would you still need to do that to make sure the iso is low and the shutter speed is right?

mattsand
12-05-2008, 04:53 AM
on sunny days you'll struggle to keep the shutter slow enough to avoid strobing, so no, all you have to do is adjust the aperture and lock. i close it until i just start to get some motion blur when i pan around, that means i'm around 1/100 or below.

/matt

alexandroff
12-05-2008, 05:30 PM
with the first method, "kholi's" method, you're basically fooling the camera into setting the iso/shutter. with the second method, the camera is doing all the talking.

i prefer the latter. i haven't had any success with his and just let it auto expose.

i got kholi's method to work. I couldnt get it to work earlier as I was trying to adjust the aperture with jog dial till I realized that the lens I have are "Auto/Manual Aperture Lenses" and I had to manually unlock the Iris ring; camera throws an error, but that doesnt matter - still can record.

Car3o - just pointing this out, in case you have same type lens and couldnt get Kholi's method to work because of the same point I got initially stuck on.

alexandroff
12-06-2008, 12:32 AM
Was playing with metering settings, trying to get spot metering set, aiming at Xrite color/tones of grey card, got same results for all.

then also went to the D90 manual - metering wont give better results, (page 51 under "Recording Movies"): Matrix metering is used regardless of the metering method selected

Rick Horton
12-28-2008, 07:55 PM
A 4xs ND filter will open up that aperture on a sunny day, for slower shutter speeds, and better dof.
Put one on, and then adjust aperture by aiming the camera around and locking. It should be good.

alexandroff
12-28-2008, 08:17 PM
A 4xs ND filter will open up that aperture on a sunny day, for slower shutter speeds, and better dof.
Put one on, and then adjust aperture by aiming the camera around and locking. It should be good.

anyone used these to know if they are any good?
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

mattsand
12-29-2008, 01:55 AM
I use an nd8 and an nd4 at the same time. An nd4 by itself does very little in bright daylight, you'll still end up around f/11. /matt

newtodvx100a
12-29-2008, 08:57 AM
Thank you everyone for all the great info. This web site helped me so..... much with my dvx100a and now I am looking forward to the d90. Bought it for a still camera upgrade from my d40. The video side of the camera was just a plus. Good to see the great things being done with it on the video side. Keep up the great work. Can't wait to get it!!!

alexandroff
12-29-2008, 09:09 AM
touching on the filters a bit more... this probably applies to another topic, but the base I'm building on now is d90 so I thought I'd ask here....

I'm looking for a good set of NDs solid ones as I primarily want to keep the DOF of my Nikon primes in bright daylight. I have a steadicam merlin as well and with d90 - its size and portability is a huge plus. I can just carry these things in my backpack.
I do have a redrock mattebox but dont haul it around...
so a screw on ND is a plus.

- what are your thoughts on which route should I go? 4x4 or just a 77mm screw on?

- another question, what happens if two solid ND's are used at the same time? how does the exposure adjustnebt of them add up?

mattsand
12-29-2008, 10:46 AM
i've no idea but i will in five seconds: if one filter removes 50% of the light and another filter behind it removes another 50% they remove 75% together. 50% is one stop and 75% is two stops, so there's your answer: the number of stops add up. ok, now i can forget it again and leave space in my brain for more important things knowing that i can always figure it out again later. :-)

/matt

alexandroff
12-29-2008, 11:53 AM
i've no idea but i will in five seconds: if one filter removes 50% of the light and another filter behind it removes another 50% they remove 75% together. 50% is one stop and 75% is two stops, so there's your answer: the number of stops add up. ok, now i can forget it again and leave space in my brain for more important things knowing that i can always figure it out again later. :-)

/matt

so if i have a ND that reduces exposure 2 stops, it will do so regardless, even if there's another ND in place already in front of it...?

artforme
12-29-2008, 11:01 PM
A big thanks to the OP for posting such helpful info.

A specific question: I'm new to the Nikon system and am curious what manual lenses (or any lenses) you would recommend.

So if my understanding is right, if I get a completely manual lens I would be able to control the aperture from the lens itself?

Thanks!! :thumbup:

mattsand
12-30-2008, 12:26 AM
so if i have a ND that reduces exposure 2 stops, it will do so regardless, even if there's another ND in place already in front of it...?

No, the little (but very clever) gnome that lives in the filter checks it constantly and if something is put in front of it he very quickly repaints it in a slightly different color. It's hard to know exactly which, he's a bit moody. :-)

/matt

mattsand
12-30-2008, 12:33 AM
if I get a completely manual lens I would be able to control the aperture from the lens itself?


Yes

Ruzo
01-03-2009, 09:13 AM
This variable ND filter mentioned by alexandroff could be the best solution for the D90. Can anyone comment on its quality?

http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Actually, it seems to have some great reviews around the internet.

NJ3118
01-04-2009, 08:09 AM
This variable ND filter mentioned by alexandroff could be the best solution for the D90. Can anyone comment on its quality?

http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html

Actually, it seems to have some great reviews around the internet.

looks awesome...but the near $400 price tag?

mattsand
01-04-2009, 09:53 AM
it's just two polarizers, isn't it? get two at $30 each, place one in a non rotating ring or glue it stuck, screw in the other, and voila.

/matt