PDA

View Full Version : The end of 35mm adapers and hv20s....



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:19 AM
Here it is, The nikon D90, a new 12MPix dslr that shoots 720/24P using the full frame APS-C sized CMOS Sensor (15mmx24mm):

MSRP: $999 body only or $1299 with 18-105mm VR kit

Kit to be released in the US on SEPT. 7th! (UPDATED: IT IS ALLREADY OUT!)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/2805494474_1d207afb84.jpg?v=0

The new camera features "D-MOVIE MODE" which allows 1280x720/ 24p recordings in the MJPEG format to SDHC card (by scanning the whole sensor size).

What does this mean? Well, it means you get 24p HD recorded onto cheap flash memory with 35mm Depth of field! With interchangeable lenses!

The footage looks promising, with great detail and apparent dynamic range- but whats even more exciting is what this means for future DSLR cameras and the video/motion picture industries.



What we know about using the D90 for movies (for your consideration): (UPDATED!) Sept 6th, 2008

-Setting the exposure in the movie mode is a hack (come on NIKON! Let us set exposure just like stills!) You have to do some sort of dinking around to get the right shutter speed and f-stop- I hope this gets fixed.

-There is low-quality mono audio recorded, solution is to sound sync.

-A rolling shutter is used, which may cause skew in fast pans or jerky movement. Solution would be to limit fast camera movement

-A limit of 5 minute recordings per clip is used, this is because of import/export tax reasons with nikon (if recording goes over 5min, it is considered a "camcorder" and the tax goes up.

-The exposure fluctuates in D-Movie mode, the solution is to lock the exposure using the AE-L button

-This is the start of a new era in film/video


NEW! D90 FIRMWARE UPDATE FOR NIKON'S CONSIDERATION (based on video testing from users):


I would suggest these seemingly simple firmware fixes for the video mode on the d90 to make a better product (and gain support from video/cinematography users):


-Full manual control just like if we were taking stills in M mode, we can set exposure manually for stills, let us do it for video also.

-Higher-bit rate (25Mbit/s minimum 50Mbit/s recommended- possibly selectable by user?)

-A fix for the aliasing and the color banding on high frequency details in the image, there are a lot of nasty artifacts in the video footage, even for a consumer camcorder this would be unacceptable.


Here are some footage links:

Nikon's Website (demo of d-movie mode):

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/


DPReview samples:

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond90/page14.asp

Vimeo (HD) links:

Biker footage raw: http://www.vimeo.com/1624029

Color-graded biker footage: http://www.vimeo.com/1630706

Train footage Raw: http://www.vimeo.com/1668437

Edited train footage: http://www.vimeo.com/1663578

Rolling shutter exposure lock test:http://www.vimeo.com/1641816

Night footage and random stuff: http://www.vimeo.com/1627718


Still extracted from original 720p AVI file (color-balance adjustment made):

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1220649762.jpg




UPDATED: A FEW USERS HAVE THE D90 now and are testing it!


Here are some informational links about the D90:

Ken Rockwell link:http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d90.htm
DPreview link (tons of info on the d90! 11 pages of information):http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond90/

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:22 AM
moved to first post

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:25 AM
format is: Motion JPEG AVI at an undisclosed bit-rate

EDIT: it appears to be somewhere between 16mb/s and 13mb/s

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 12:39 AM
wow...now the bar has been raised

but i wonder if shutter speeds are out and i'm assuming no overcranking/undercranking

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:43 AM
This looks like the perfect home video camera!

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:47 AM
The shutter speed is set before the take and cannot be changed during recording.

There is unlimited under cranking capability though (for timelapse), this is a dslr!

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:48 AM
probably no over cranking.

jenningsp
08-27-2008, 12:51 AM
crapped my pants

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 12:52 AM
heck, i think it could be more than just a home video camera
depending on how long it can record video, i'd sell my dvx for it
cut out the whole 35mm adapter, get a separate audio recorder
and it'd be like i was filming with an old school film camera. seems like
it has better dynamic range than most prosumer cameras

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 12:56 AM
I'm glad I stayed up late tonight. Im going to order one of these as soon as it comes out, I dont care how crappy the video quality is.

jenningsp
08-27-2008, 12:57 AM
i am thinking the same thing car30

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:04 AM
http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/spec/

yeah, this is a monster...i'm really really really really really thinking of doing something with this.

jenningsp
08-27-2008, 01:13 AM
alas, it seems exposure is automatic.... :(

"The D90 offers motion JPEG (.AVI format) movie capture at three different quality settings (24 fps in all cases):

1280 x 720 pixels (16:9, 720p)
640 x 424 pixels (3:2, VGA)
320 x 216 pixels (3:2, QVGA)
Although you can't autofocus whilst recording movie clips, before you actually start the clip you can pre-set any of the Picture Controls, white balance, exposure compensation and so on (giving a lot of creative control over the 'look' of the movie) and the image stabilization works with VR lenses. Exposure is fully automatic in movie mode (though exposure compensation settings are honored).

There are several limitations to be aware of, however; as mentioned there's no autofocus whilst recording clips, and there is a time limit to a single clip (5 minutes for a 1280 x 720 movie, 20 minutes for others).

We've had a play with this function on our pre-production camera though we're not able to publish any output yet we can report that the quality of the 720p movie clips seems very good - we'll cover this in-depth when we publish our full review."

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond90/page10.asp

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:17 AM
I'm still amped

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 01:17 AM
yep its over.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:20 AM
it's over because they aren't going to be the last....canon is right around the corner.

PappasArts
08-27-2008, 01:22 AM
About time! I told canon years ago to do this. Good for Nikon.

So awesome, full frame too!

Canon will push it even further. With this you get all the DOF, perfect bokeh, no crappy hotspots or vignetting and the use of super wide angle and long lenses with no compromise like the 35mm adapters.....

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:23 AM
i think hunter deserves the "man at 4:22am award" for finding this

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 01:26 AM
I am hopeful that the "automatic exposure" is referring to the DX series stops on the lens and not the shutter. (In the videos it doesnt look like the shutter changes but the lens stops down and opens up- so you could just use an ai or ais nikon lens instead)

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:31 AM
http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/system-accessory/#c-lc

from the lens compatibility it shows the nikon AI lens only have manual control. so i think your theory would be correct.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 01:34 AM
Ok im off to bed- now at least I can sleep knowing there is a perfect videocamera/dslr combo for my wife. (actually it would be for me, but I would give it to her as a gift:))

frisco
08-27-2008, 01:52 AM
VERY interesting! Some of the video clips I've seen from the D90 look way better than most the camcorder vids on Vimeo!
Calling my Nikon Rep in the morning.

frisco

Toenis
08-27-2008, 02:48 AM
Actually this is a horrendous misconception by Nikon that you can not use manual exposure.
http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/ look at the samples, the D90 changes the exposure in hard stops, that has never been seen on any damn consumer camcorder. This must be addressed or the movie function falls hard. Imagine all the customers who brought this cam complaining about that image brightness jumpiness if I may call it so.

The jumpy exposure shift is by far the most idiotic engineering fault I have seen from major manufacturer, but what can you expect from the first of it's kind. Believe me this is intentional "fault" and we will see the manual exp movie function on a $2000 Nikon DSLR instead.
But until then most cell phones can handle forced automatic exposure more dynamically than the clips from that D-Movie page show us, the inner racist awakes.

Damn,
T

Adam J McKay
08-27-2008, 03:23 AM
Toenis,
I noticed this as well. This as well. I find that even with my d80 when I shoot a bunch in rapid succession, there tends to be a slight variation in exposure. However if this was fixed for the production model I would seriously rethink my next purchase. Could you imagine, a feature film shot on... a Nikon?

This opens up the doors to a potential Nikon HD camera. If they have their sensors being able to capture video, why not spend some time and develop a full fledged, full frame super HD cam for a fraction of the price of say... RED.

frisco
08-27-2008, 03:35 AM
Actually this is a horrendous misconception by Nikon that you can not use manual exposure.
http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/ look at the samples, the D90 changes the exposure in hard stops, that has never been seen on any damn consumer camcorder. This must be addressed or the movie function falls hard. Imagine all the customers who brought this cam complaining about that image brightness jumpiness if I may call it so.

Damn,
T

This could be a BIG problem!

frisco

Kwan
08-27-2008, 03:37 AM
Wooooooooowwwwwww.
Thanks for posting this! HUnter R.

Toenis
08-27-2008, 04:01 AM
If this still turns up to be full manual control movie mode, or will be updated with firmware it will sell many many many times more Nikon "digital" lenses that of sold today as those digital lenses are optimized for cropped sensors. I as absolute Canon follower would sell all my Canon gear (except for 5D and some L's) and purchase nikon DX lenses and a movie body like the D90 if it will support manual exp.

Pleas bombard your local Nikon reps with the questions like why the exp is jumpy in movie mode and if there will be manual exp available in movie mode as this is absolutely essential. Maybe it was said that the only available automatic function in movie mode is the auto exp, god I hope so.
How could Ken Rockwell possibly miss that essential fact.

Hope,
T

logic108
08-27-2008, 04:34 AM
There is an 'exposure lock' available in movie mode. You can set ISO and exposure prior to taking the shot. Also I think you set the picture control before taking the shot - so you should be able to have custom settings i.e black and white or other colour settings and then dial in exposure / ISO and then shoot through the live view on the lcd.
If you lock the exposure and shoot with old AI lenses with the aperture ring I can't see why the D90 would then adjust the exposure after that?
We'll see but here's a list of things I like about this movie mode:
1. Really good LCD for accurate focusing.
2. HDMI output to HD display.
3. No reversed image - so no need to reverse in post.
4. CMOS sensor size.
5. Ability to use Image Stabilized lenses.
6. Portability and stealth.
7. Storage media and data transfer - I'm fed up with tape.
8. Able to use Cokin P-holder with ND grads.
9. Price.

The only two things that would stop me buying this camera are if Canon brings out a new 5D with a movie mode and if the Nikon D90 does have exposure problems and that even with exposure lock there are still problems.

Toenis
08-27-2008, 04:46 AM
Check out the guys behind the available footage D90 (http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/08/chase-jarvis-raw-advance-testing-nikon.html)
Those guys should know if the movie mode works as it should.

T

logic108
08-27-2008, 05:00 AM
My guess is that they shot with the camera in the Springtime and perhaps not all of the movie features were in the firmware. We'll have to wait and see.

Toenis
08-27-2008, 05:18 AM
Wait a minute, is there a shoulder mount available for the D90? Zacuto maybe?
Imagine all those D90s with FFs and matteboxes...
... sorry couldn't hold it back.

T

Joseph Stunzi
08-27-2008, 05:47 AM
Imagine trying to pull focus with the LCD on that thing. Dunno how well that would work. Also imagine the inertial disadvantage of a light-as-a-feather D90 versus a heavier shoulder camera.

augenblick
08-27-2008, 05:55 AM
You do not pull focus on the lcd. It has HDMI output !!!!

Peter

GuitarRy
08-27-2008, 05:55 AM
Cheers,

omg, if this is really true i will sell my canon xl. imagine! buy 16gb-CF-Cards. ( Like i would buy 20 ). Almost unlimited of runtime. Buy batteries buy shoulder support, buy mattebox buy the frickin cam. gee im so excited.
Garry

slimchrisp
08-27-2008, 06:27 AM
wow. thanks for posting this man. very exciting.

anyone see anything about video storage/time ratio? as in how many minutes of 720p you would get on an 8gig card for example? i only found that info for stills.

slimchrisp
08-27-2008, 06:47 AM
found a related answer at http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond90/page10.asp


and there is a time limit to a single clip (5 minutes for a 1280 x 720 movie, 20 minutes for others).

Toenis
08-27-2008, 07:07 AM
At 500mb per 5 minutes this is about half 1/2 of the mini DV bandwidth.
Would that motion jpg codec be of usable quality?
You can see HD sample vid HERE! (http://www.vimeo.com/1612204) really bad, I mean really unusable, I just hope that this is a conversion and operator error combined.


T

jls4
08-27-2008, 07:26 AM
I was looking at the camera over at dpreview as well. I think it would be better to go with one of the Canon HV30 cams instead of this one. The only downside (from what I've heard) on the HV30 is the lack of manual iris. Shooting 5 minutes could be okay, but it just seems like extra hastle if you're not getting the benefit of more resolution and better compression.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 08:33 AM
talked to a guy over at nikon and he said it "should" have exposure lock for d-movie mode. he wasn't sure because they haven't even received the camera yet, but to call back within a week and he can test it. also the exposure is set in camera and not the lens so that'll still be a bummer if it doesn't lock. said release date should be in september.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 09:36 AM
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon1.gif
Known facts:

Highest Video Resolution: 1280x720 (aka 720p) downsampled(not cropped) from a APS-C/S35 4k sensor
Framerates: 24fps fixed, not variable
Format: Motion JPEG/MJPEG 4:4:4 (wikipedia it)
Datarate: 588mb/5min or 1.96mb/s (thats megabytes not megabits)
Exposure lock: Avaliable
Exposure compensation: Avaliable
Iris/Aperture control: Yes - also displayed on LCD
Focus control: Manual lens ring only, no AF
Shutter speed control: Yes, via exposure lock - also displayed on LCD
ISO control: Yes, via exposure lock - also displayed on LCD
Price: $1000US without lens


-someone posted that in the post under the news section.

sinapps
08-27-2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon1.gif
(aka 720p) downsampled(not cropped)


This means killer low-light performance. Too bad it'll only grab 5 minutes / clip.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 09:52 AM
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1219855816.jpg

This doesnt look that bad at all (this is a 720 frame extracted from VIMEO) If it looks this good after vimeo's compression, it will look great out of camera.

ryan brown
08-27-2008, 10:12 AM
This doesnt look that bad at all (this is a 720 frame extracted from VIMEO) If it looks this good after vimeo's compression, it will look great out of camera.

Agreed.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 10:14 AM
wheww, i was making sure it wasn't me, so good thing you said something first.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 10:16 AM
This means killer low-light performance. Too bad it'll only grab 5 minutes / clip.

There's probably a handful of people if not more who do corporate video's, weddings, events, that need to shoot 5minute video's, but so far the longest running One Shot has be recorded at like 8mins...only one I've seen is Children of Men and it runs 7....so 5minutes if plenty for me.

slimchrisp
08-27-2008, 10:17 AM
found the answer to my earlier question (storage size of video) from http://gizmodo.com/5042209/nikon-d90-official-first-dslr-ever-with-hd-video-recording


It shoots 1280x720p video at 24fps with a 16:9 aspect ratio for up to five minutes, producing around a 600MB file. It's essentially recording the Live View feed (which gets its own button) so focus is locked because the mirror has moved out of the way, and you get mono sound. The major appeal is that it'll work with any of your lenses, so you can do wacky HD clips with a fisheye lens on the (relatively) cheap or be artsy and use a shallow depth of field.

600mb. not bad. 15+ minutes on a 2gig card. of course, no rack focusing according to the above (locked focus).

astigmatic
08-27-2008, 10:29 AM
no way this will replace the hv20/30+adapter. 720, locked focus, and 5 min runs. Not gonna happen. Maybe the next version, or whatever competion brings if this nikon takes off.

leteeci
08-27-2008, 10:30 AM
How about capturing HDMI output???

You still don't need DOF adapter, etc..


Just thought..

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 10:37 AM
focus can't be locked because you see rack focusing on some of the shots.
IE the vimeo clip has rack focusing.
i think autofocus is locked

slimchrisp
08-27-2008, 10:43 AM
focus can't be locked because you see rack focusing on some of the shots.
IE the vimeo clip has rack focusing.
i think autofocus is locked

yep. that sounds right. i got some faulty info. locked autofocus is no big deal anyway.

logic108
08-27-2008, 10:52 AM
Can't wait to try the D90 with my Nikon 85mm pc (tilt and shift) lens :laugh:

min lee
08-27-2008, 11:16 AM
i don't suppose there's a mic input.

Toenis
08-27-2008, 11:35 AM
i don't suppose there's a mic input.
At least it can hear the "clap-slate" to sync audio from external recorders in post.

T

rawfa
08-27-2008, 11:47 AM
This is just a glipmse of things to come. I have no doubt this will be the future, not now though.
Better video quality, audio input, full manual control and a live view lcd and I'm replacing my video cameras for a something like this. It could be cool for donwconverting to SD though...if anyone still wants to do that.
Nonetheless I'm super curious about seeing some videos shot with it...one will have to stock up with SD cards first.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 11:48 AM
my thoughts too. an external audio recorder is what i'm looking at.
september is the new december

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 11:54 AM
i don't think there's enough quality out there now to determine how good it actually is. but, even so, if i wanted to have SD quality, it might be better than my dvx with an adapter. how many of us are using external monitors now? so nothing different there. it has a lot of full manual controls if you look at the screen grabs posted on some of the review sites on sharpness, detail, etc..etc...

as of now, theory is you have control over shutter, exposure and focus. so that's equal to my dvx..some extent. i don't need a 35 and i could probably deal with the lcd seeing how it's only .5inches less. and a lot of photoraphers already use the viewfinder/lcd to focus when taking pictures, i'm sure i could do the same shooting.

lot depends on what you're shooting. mainly just narrative films for me.

PappasArts
08-27-2008, 12:01 PM
Here is a link, if it hasn't already been posted.

Chase Jarvis RAW: Advance Testing the Nikon D90

http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/


All I can say having the option to shoot 3200asa at 24fps opens a lot of interesting paths in Documentary situations.

Nikon's a good company , if they get good response form this, D-movie mode is going to grow much better over time. And they'll sell even more lenses too!

ifownlee41nite@mac.com
08-27-2008, 12:59 PM
Wow!

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 01:25 PM
This is the start of a new era in video cameras. This particular product is not the end-all, but just wait what happens once the full-ripple of this is felt by nikon (and canoy/sony/ect).

This is just testing the waters, what comes later is the professional end-all version.

But for now this is a flash-recording HD/24p video camera with interchangeable lenses AND a super35mm sized sensor! Try to find that any where else for $1000.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 01:44 PM
Someone just quoted this from reduser.net

"The D90 allows you to select the aperture (from wide open to f/8) prior to commencing, then it handles the adjusting of ISO and shutter speed automatically as needed to maintain video brightness as lighting conditions change during recording. To disable automatic exposure adjustment, it's possible to lock exposure prior to beginning the recording."

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 01:54 PM
Yeah, you had me at d90 records hd/24p

Aroon_Narayanan
08-27-2008, 02:00 PM
This is the start of a new era in video cameras. This particular product is not the end-all, but just wait what happens once the full-ripple of this is felt by nikon (and canoy/sony/ect).

This is just testing the waters, what comes later is the professional end-all version.
I agree; this and the EX-F1 are only a taste of what's to come. It would be cool if one could get professional-quality stills and professional-quality video in the same package. But that's a little while off.
As for right now, personally, I'm excited to see what the big manufacturers like Sony and Canon are going to unveil at NAB 2009 in response to this and Scarlet.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 02:05 PM
What is HVX's compression rate compared to the D90?

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 02:17 PM
The hvx200 in 720p (960x720 anamorphic) 24pn is 40/mbs = around 5MB/s (even though dvcproHD is a 100Mb/s codec, in 24p mode, only 40Mb/s is actually used)

This is just based on preliminary specs:

The d90 in 720p 24p (full-raster) is about 16Mb/s = 2MB/s

It will be interesting how the codecs compare visually, as they are totally different compression schemes.

Toenis
08-27-2008, 02:21 PM
Motion JPEG codec at 2mbps Nikon D90 data rate sample! (http://finalpass.net/videos/MJPEG_test/) This isn't Nikon D90 footage but as close as possible to it's codec and datarate.
This looks rather good.

T

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 02:27 PM
That looks great- I bet that looks better than what the d90 will actually record, but its a great sample showing what the codec can do with high motion/detailed scenes. MJPEG is also extremely easy to edit.

EDIT-XTREEM
08-27-2008, 02:50 PM
What about a shoe mounted LCD hooked in via the HDMI?

Toenis
08-27-2008, 02:54 PM
MJPG is also extremely easy for CPU based playback and live mixing/editing via USB.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 03:45 PM
This probably wont be what I shoot my films on, but it's the 100% perfect camera to have with you where ever you go!

Loren Simons
08-27-2008, 03:49 PM
yeah im going to have to agree with Ryan on this one.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 03:52 PM
If I am shooting a film just for the web, I might use this instead of my Red. Im dreaming about 5 camera set-up 1-shot wonders, cutting instantly and uploading the film- dvxuserfests maybe?

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 03:59 PM
Yeah, this is perfect for small web-based stuff! And let's not forget this is still a full functioning 12mega pixel still photography camera. lol

:) NEW Information About the D90 HERE (http://yourphotoarchive.com/laugh.htm)!!!!

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:01 PM
Yeah, this is perfect for small web-based stuff! And let's not forget this is still a full functioning 12mega pixel still photography camera. lol

New Information About the D90 HERE (http://yourphotoarchive.com/laugh.htm)!!!!


That website is a joke!:

http://yourphotoarchive.com/images/d90.jpg

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 04:01 PM
i can't think of one reason for me why I wouldn't use this to shoot films on. short or feature. if the quality and resolution is there with manual controls, it's going to be fine for myself. the ease of editing footage is another added bonus.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:03 PM
Ha! That website cracks me up! read this:

"
In an effort to avoid such distasteful events this time around, and ensure everybody can enjoy a D90, Nikon now supports the following storage formats...


SD
CF
XD
Memory Stick
3.5 inch floppy
5.25 inch floppy
8 inch floppy (in MB-D90b only)
CD/DVD (in MB-D90b only)
High-speed paper tape to maintain compatibility with Colossus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer)
Punch cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card)

"

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 04:06 PM
I like the user electrocution that tenses the muscles for perfect stable shots.

Joseph Stunzi
08-27-2008, 04:10 PM
well in terms of shooting a feature on it. you audio is going to be pretty poor.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:11 PM
well in terms of shooting a feature on it. you audio is going to be pretty poor.

sync sound silly, how else would you do sound for a feature?

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 04:13 PM
you beat me to it...i wouldn't use this to record audio on youtube.
digital audio recorders are sub $500.00

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:13 PM
This is so funny: Macworld just resealed some info on their website about the new d90. Look at these responses from a few people:

"
Steve_S (http://forums.macworld.com/people/Steve_S) says: Wed Aug 27 13:46:01 PDT 2008

Re: Nikon’s D90 SLR shoots Hi-Def movie clips (http://forums.macworld.com/message/659904#659904)

I'm sure the Nikon D90 is a fine camera, but I can't imagine the demand for video is very high on a dSLR camera, much less manual focus video. If they are going to implement a feature, they should do it right or not do it at all.

Reply to this comment (http://forums.macworld.com/post%21reply.jspa?messageID=659904)




voyager (http://forums.macworld.com/people/voyager) says: Wed Aug 27 14:03:53 PDT 2008

Re: Nikon’s D90 SLR shoots Hi-Def movie clips (http://forums.macworld.com/message/659915#659915)

Great to see Nikon cameras just gets better and better.
I don't think anyone will buy a D90 for video. But it's great and convenient for those who love quality still images and just need video in some rear situations.
Shooting video with any Nikon lenses may just open up a new dimension for anyone. Wow!
Great works of Nikon.

Reply to this comment (http://forums.macworld.com/post%21reply.jspa?messageID=659915) "


I think a lot of consumers have no idea what this feature means for the video & motion-picture industries- I wonder if nikon even really knows what they have done by adding this feature?

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 04:20 PM
My biggest fear is a rolling shutter. Do you know the size of that CMOS sensor that it is sampling down to 720? Huge!

That baby has a long ways to roll, right?

Or is it a global shutter?

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:24 PM
I saw some skew on the fast biking shots, but it seemed about the same as an hv20, maybe a little better. See here (this is the middle of a fast tracking shot with a high shutter speed, look at the poles in the back) See its not bad at all.

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1219855816.jpg

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 04:32 PM
Oh snap! I forgot that you can download the original files uploaded on vimeo! Scroll down on this link and right-click, download AVI. It looks really good (besides the auto exposure-which can be disabled)

The quality looks great! Color, DR, and resolution!

http://www.vimeo.com/1612204

(go down to the "downloads section")

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 04:43 PM
yeah, this is totally mine.

now selling a dvx100b 50hrs and a 35mm adapter.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 04:48 PM
ther's a little bit of skewing if you look at the railing in the back...i played it slow and it's noticeable but only if you look for it.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 05:00 PM
Ok I am a nerd, I admit it. Graded from the avi (grain added)::laugh:

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1219881378.jpg
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1219881267.jpg

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/23459/1219881619.jpg

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 05:02 PM
Looks like hdv to me, but with better color and a 35mm sensor.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 05:06 PM
To be honest, these guys did a crappy job of the demo footage. Their photos are impressive, but the video clips suck. They could have thrown a grad filter on the front, or more interior/movie like clips.

Ugly skating/biking footage to me. I do like that kid walking towards the camera though

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 05:11 PM
To be honest, these guys did a crappy job of the demo footage. Their photos are impressive, but the video clips suck. They could have thrown a grad filter on the front, or more interior/movie like clips.

Ugly skating footage to me.

Word. But what can one expect from a photographer? This is moving images! I wonder how many photographers heads will explode while using the d-movie mode. ("recording moving images? does not compute...... errr..:zombie_smiley:")

Just kidding I love photographers!

Huy Vu
08-27-2008, 05:13 PM
What bothers me is the constant flickering due to the auto exposure. If that can't be corrected this is not gonna work well.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 05:18 PM
Huy Vu- Its not really about this particular camera, its that this technology is being implemented into dslr's- thats the game changer. The exposure can be locked to manual- so they say.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 05:19 PM
constant flickering is yet to be "proven" to be disabled. from the sound of it, you'll be able to set exposure and stop it.

and i agree, these guys probably didn't even know you could shoot video...they just added "a neat little feature"...so yeah, they probably used it and said "neat" and then went back to shooting pictures. the video, even though compressed, of the women in the park walking was very nice.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 05:26 PM
Word. But what can one expect from a photographer? This is moving images! I wonder how many photographers heads will explode while using the d-movie mode. ("recording moving images? does not compute...... errr..:zombie_smiley:")

Just kidding I love photographers!

He's probably still trying to find a way to get the video into photoshop.:laugh:

waefre
08-27-2008, 07:17 PM
Woah Slow Down.. I don't think this is a full frame DSLR from what I've read. I don't think the sensor is a true 35mm sensor as is the case with most dslr in this price range. This of course means that while you can still use the same lenses the image is cropped. Your 85 becomes a 50 and so on. And if you actually want the coverage of a 50 you end up using a 35 which does not have the same DOF at all. Someone please shoot me down if I'm wrong. I'm very excited about this camera and the things to come, but it may not be the immediate replacement for the RED.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 07:23 PM
i don't know of anyone claiming it to be an immediate replacement for anything. for me it would and some others replace their hv 20's and maybe some other cam's out there, but this is not competition to the RED at all. the sensor is 24x15mm.

min lee
08-27-2008, 08:09 PM
Woah Slow Down.. I don't think this is a full frame DSLR from what I've read. I don't think the sensor is a true 35mm sensor as is the case with most dslr in this price range.

I may be wrong but I thought a 35mm for still and motion picture is different. For still cameras, the film is load in horizontally whereas motion picture is vertically so the motion picture frame size should be similar to the non full frame DSLR. Indeed, using a SLR lens, you're not going to get the same focal length but it should be the same as zooming in to match film frame with any adapter. Even Red One is 24.4x13.7

cordvision
08-27-2008, 08:13 PM
Woah Slow Down.. I don't think this is a full frame DSLR from what I've read. I don't think the sensor is a true 35mm sensor as is the case with most dslr in this price range. This of course means that while you can still use the same lenses the image is cropped. Your 85 becomes a 50 and so on. And if you actually want the coverage of a 50 you end up using a 35 which does not have the same DOF at all. Someone please shoot me down if I'm wrong. I'm very excited about this camera and the things to come, but it may not be the immediate replacement for the RED.

A 35mm film camera has a smaller film plane than a 35mm still image camera. The d90 has a sensor of similar size to a 35mm film camera film frame (which means it is smaller than the sensor of a full fame slr camera). Therefore a lens with a focal length of 50mm would give you more or less the same FOV on a D90 and on a 35mm film camera. A 85mm lens always stays a 85mm lens no matter on what camera you put it, what changes is the FOV...

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 08:33 PM
Min lee is correct.

The d90 does have a "full-frame" sensor, just not the "full-frame" sensor size still photographers are used to, instead it has a sensor almost exactly the same size as a super 35mm negative (35mm motion picture standard).

SO theoretically- If you wanted to modify the d90, you could have full use of cine lenses as well. (It is physically possible according to flange focal distance to make a PL to nikon mount adapter by the way)

frisco
08-27-2008, 09:19 PM
Word. But what can one expect from a photographer? This is moving images! I wonder how many photographers heads will explode while using the d-movie mode. ("recording moving images? does not compute...... errr..:zombie_smiley:")

Just kidding I love photographers!

Oh...... My...... OK......OK.......

Us still guys just wish most film makers knew a thing or two about composition and lighting!

I love teasing my movie buddies!

frisco

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 10:27 PM
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond90/page10.asp

on this link, it's been posted before, it mentions the exposure fully automatic, but compensations settings are honored. lets only hope this means it's fully automatic with the electronic lens and not the old ones meaning it only adjusts the iris on the lens and not some weird thing with the cmos chip.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 10:37 PM
:huh:Not crazy that this thread is going on in DVXuser News, Cinematography, and Photography sections all at once.

Park Edwards
08-27-2008, 11:09 PM
and not to mention reduser.net/dvinfo.net

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Ok this is official:

Movie specs: • File format AVI (Motion-JPEG)
• Image size (pixels) 640 x 424; 24 fps 320 x 216; 24 fps 1280 x 720; 24 fps
• Compression: Motion-JPEG Audio Monaural on/off selection
• Exposure: Determined with matrix metering utilizing output from the image sensor
• Exposure lock available
• Exposure compensation available in P, S, A, M modes
• Maximum single clip length: 1280x720/ 5 minutes, others 20 minutes

Thats what Ive been waiting to read for myself, this is from an updated page on the d90 at dpreview.com

dantewaters
08-27-2008, 11:31 PM
yea looks nice... We'll see how real world test turn out.

Hunter Hampton
08-27-2008, 11:34 PM
I will be the first guinea pig! I will get one the day they are released and shoot a movie with it.- and it wont be of my dog in my back yard! ; )

I am also planning on testing sync to make sure it holds over the entire recording time, as well as finding out if its really 24 or 23.98 fps

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-27-2008, 11:43 PM
Can you do a latitude test and rolling shutter test? Would be amazing.

I'm going to get mine, but not right when they come out. Have to find a job first.... grrr.

Evangelos Achillopoulos
08-27-2008, 11:48 PM
I have couple of things that I noticed...

Why 24mmx18mm? isn't it very weird to have a sensor for a DSLR that is exact full frame size of 35mm motion picture camera? It means that the sensor was originally designed to do that! That said, we are going to see a lot of sensors in this size that are capable of motion picture capture... times are changing... what Jim made for us, is that he pushed all the big guys to understand why we need the bigger size sensors... for them RED is a business case study... so seat tight and wait and see what is coming... the only thing that holds down Canon is the 2/3 lens business that will be crippled if a Canon HDV or AVC-HD camera rolls out in 1080p with full 35mm sensor and EF mount... So at a business perspective for them is question of either low volume high margins or high volume low margins?...!!! the time will pass and they will do it, but they will try to slow it down as much as they can...

This camera will hurt the Scarlet possible user base hard... its a good move (for the big guys) to slow down RED... Jim will lose revenues from that...

dantewaters
08-27-2008, 11:51 PM
This opens a whole different realm. Imagine a younger individual who wants to start video... they can get some clips and start working, while at the same time develop Photography skills.

I mean I wont use it just yet for corporate work, but just for practice. This way when they get the real tools forget it.

frisco
08-27-2008, 11:54 PM
I leave for Tokyo on Saturday....... Will check to see if there gonna be available in Japan before the USA.
Anyone know if it's gonna be a "One World" camera..... Or region specific?

frisco

Evangelos Achillopoulos
08-28-2008, 12:15 AM
As I read it, the D-Movie features from Nikon web site, that much I understand why Nikon and not Canon... Because they want to sell there lenses!!! they don't have an intra corporate conflict of interest... And if they enter the D-Movie market for them is big time... (If they let them)

Canon will have a problem if it makes something similar... the Canon Cine HD lenses revenues will be crippled hard...

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 12:17 AM
This opens a whole different realm. Imagine a younger individual who wants to start video... they can get some clips and start working, while at the same time develop Photography skills.

I mean I wont use it just yet for corporate work, but just for practice. This way when they get the real tools forget it.

You are completely right. This camera will indeed make hundreds if not thousands of young people fall in love with cinematography & photography... and the video mode lacking autofocus is for the best!!!

Probably the best learning/practicing tool out there! :laugh:

I want one for that reason. Can't lug my HVX everywhere I go.

frisco
08-28-2008, 01:37 AM
As I read it, the D-Movie features from Nikon web site, that much I understand why Nikon and not Canon... Because they want to sell there lenses!!! they don't have an intra corporate conflict of interest... And if they enter the D-Movie market for them is big time... (If they let them)

Canon will have a problem if it makes something similar... the Canon Cine HD lenses revenues will be crippled hard...

Great points..... This is going to get interesting. Leaves the door wide open for companies that aren't directly in the video business already.

Maybe Leica.... or Rollei???


frisco

rawfa
08-28-2008, 02:01 AM
I'm sure I'm about to get stoned to death for this comment but the possibilities around what the D90 represents are more exciting for me than Scarlet. I will pray for other companies to follow Nikons' footsteps in improving this idea.

DavidChia
08-28-2008, 02:57 AM
Cheap SD cards...

DOF...

small size ...

records 1280 x 720...

shoot right side up...

no G.G problems...

no Vignetting...

no back focus problems...

what loss of light?

$900...

Hee hee, I think that is enough for me to choose it over a adapter that is on the market at the moment...

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 03:14 AM
Cheap SD cards...

DOF...

small size ...

records 1280 x 720...

shoot right side up...

no G.G problems...

no Vignetting...

no back focus problems...

what loss of light?

$900...

Hee hee, I think that is enough for me to choose it over a adapter that is on the market at the moment...

Nice list of pro's aint it?

When you said "What light loss?" you failed to mention that it's actually MORE light sensitivity. HVX by itself is iso/asa 320ish area. This photography camera can be set at a maximum 3,200!! (btw thats over 3 stops faster then raw HVX translating in the 'cinematographer/photographer' needing 1/8th the amount of light necessary on the HVX)

Please note I am comparing to the HVX because it's what we can almost all relate to. This is not to try and state this photography camera is an acceptable or competitive substitute... because it's not.

The only prospective downsides to the D90 movie mode, which need to be tested:

- Compression. Its not our DVCPro HD we are used to. Going to be packaged in smaller bits.

- Should I even question the dynamic range on a photography camera? Normally no, but sometimes compression can crush highlights together and shadows together. We need to test dynamic range.

- Shutter. It's CMOS and a rolling shutter. I have a feeling since the chip is gigantic and this isn't meant to be a high end video camera, they didn't bust booty to minimize a wobble effect, etc.



I just can't wait for this. Someday photography cameras will just take videos and they will extract frames in post, unless using flash photography. Crazy day that will be.

Lee Wilson
08-28-2008, 03:18 AM
BMX original 720p sample suffers from just about every consumer camcorder problem going !

Stair stepping (see BMX wheels)
Rolling shutter wobble (look at the folk in the foreground at the start of the shot!)
Exposure jumping up and down in distinct steps (!)
Banding.
And an overall soft image (as if run through a median filter!!)

Hopefully most of these can be overcome or are down the user error - although I know no remedy for an obvious rolling shutter wobble.

Looks like a door just opened onto something wonderful.

Adam J McKay
08-28-2008, 03:19 AM
if it hasnt been posted already...

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/ (http://chsvimg.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/)

there is the link to a bunch of test videos on the nikon site.

Lee Wilson
08-28-2008, 03:20 AM
- Compression. Its not our DVCPro HD we are used to. Going to be packaged in smaller bits.


13.56 mbits/s

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 03:31 AM
when, dammit, when!

rawfa
08-28-2008, 04:06 AM
Shipping by november...

rawfa
08-28-2008, 04:15 AM
Man, there's some cool video samples on this new link zergtherobot posted. I'd love to see them in HD without the compression thought. Even if it can only record 5min it'll be like like having to change a reel.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 04:15 AM
BMX original 720p sample suffers from just about every consumer camcorder problem going !

Stair stepping (see BMX wheels)
Rolling shutter wobble (look at the folk in the foreground at the start of the shot!)
Exposure jumping up and down in distinct steps (!)
Banding.
And an overall soft image (as if run through a median filter!!)

Hopefully most of these can be overcome or are down the user error - although I know no remedy for an obvious rolling shutter wobble.

Looks like a door just opened onto something wonderful.

That exposure jumping is because it's not on lockdown. I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that you can disable that.

What is stair stepping, may I ask?


PS: That link has been posted before and whoever shot it really didn't attempt to impress us. Seemed like some R&D guy just messed around with it. Only that shot in the park (with the woman) is really impressive to any level.

PPS: Just rewatched the BMX clip, look at the railing, rolling shutter slant for sure. (as someone pictorially pointed out earlier.)

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 06:02 AM
several people have posted you can lock down the exposure. what about the shutter speed? i think i read that is auto as well to keep the image constant.

Toenis
08-28-2008, 06:20 AM
several people have posted you can lock down the exposure. what about the shutter speed? i think i read that is auto as well to keep the image constant.
From the 1st demo from Nikon D Movie site (http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/) it's visible that the table scene with two females has AE-Lock engaged and the shutter stays at 60th and the aperture is set at f4. If you figure out what does AE-L mean in Nikon terms you got an answer. I did the same with my HV20, pointed the cam around until it reads the right amount of light and then locked the exp with joystick.
With DSLR the AE-L engages usually even with half-pressing the shutter button locking all the shutter/aperture values in place.

But if the lock isn't flexible enough it will mess up the shutter speed for movie making. Or it will not allow you to change aperture even if the shutter speed is right. It could get really tricky if the D90 will not allow full manual shooting in movie mode. NAd then there's the rolling shutter that maybe isn't that bad but...

T

rawfa
08-28-2008, 06:48 AM
No matter how this video thing turns out the pictures taken with the D90 look pretty sweet. Add to that whattever we can get out of this new d-video tool and it's a killer deal for this price. I hope the quality turns out really good...so the competition has to work really hard...hehehe...some men simply like to watch the world burn :evil:

zcream
08-28-2008, 08:59 AM
CAn I confirm if this is a typo ?? It says 480P. 720P and 1080i on the HDMI output.. Why would someone add just 1 interlaced video mode to progressive still and 2 other video modes ??
CAn it be 1080p sent within 1080i ?? i.e. A signal that needs pulldown to extract 24P ??

DM_rider
08-28-2008, 09:43 AM
Shipping by november...

I talked to the guys at my local camera shop and they said that their cameras are shipping on the 16th of September? Definitely going to check it out when they get them.

Gabriel Berube
08-28-2008, 09:53 AM
He's probably still trying to find a way to get the video into photoshop.:laugh:

Heh, actually Ryan, you CAN load a video into Photoshop CS3 Extended ; you can modify it frame by frame, apply filters, color correction, etc. etc. :D

You can actually do pretty much anything with your movie that you would with still photography. It's just not the same workflow as After Effects, and doesn't do as much as AE either. Uses a lot of comp juice too, but that's another story...

God I'm hyped up about this D90, anyone needs a used but well-cared D200 along with a grat-shaped XL2?:cool:

ryan brown
08-28-2008, 10:59 AM
I talked to the guys at my local camera shop and they said that their cameras are shipping on the 16th of September?

Yeah... I read two places that they'll be available in September.

Is this confirmed then??

If so, my D80 is going in the marketplace tomorrow.

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 11:07 AM
i really like the idea of shooting podcasts and web videos with this thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ONRYGZLbaY&fmt=18

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 11:13 AM
I bet you will do more than that Zak based on your track record- like improved multi-camera short films?


i really like the idea of shooting podcasts and web videos with this thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ONRYGZLbaY

DM_rider
08-28-2008, 11:14 AM
I found more footage on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd94II6EO6s&feature=related&fmt=18

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 11:14 AM
Here is an original D90 full res avi clip posted by a guy on a red forum.

http://finalpass.net/videos/MJPEG_test/

http://www.scarletuser.com/showpost.php?p=17460&postcount=77

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 11:16 AM
I bet you will do more than that Zak based on your track record- like improved multi-camera short films?

if this camera comes out in september, i'm going to shoot a feature, WANDERLUST (http://www.sabipictures.com/wanderlust), on it that i intended to shoot with an HV20 during the first two weeks of october. wanted to do a lot of streetlight and car interior (at night) shooting and this looks like it will enable me to do that and still keep the 35mm aesthetic.

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 11:29 AM
btw, i pulled that AVI into final cut to mess with the color and it is actual 24fps. not 23.98.

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 11:31 AM
say someone wanted to pre-order this camera. i don't buy a lot of still cameras, so where would a guy go for a good price and reliable, immediate delivery of a D90? body only.

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 11:50 AM
btw, i pulled that AVI into final cut to mess with the color and it is actual 24fps. not 23.98.

what does that mean for syncing with external sound? will there be a drift?

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 11:53 AM
no. audio doesn't have a framerate.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 11:58 AM
Here is a review from London on youtube. I guess Nikon shot footage throughout London, Wish we could get our hands on that footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwG86ym3Ucg&fmt=18

This camera is the first baby step and a view to what's coming. Finally large frame Digital video. When this gets mature, most of us can throw the overpriced adapters away. Might make good paper weights.

In this review from imaging-resource they mention how all picture controls can be used in HD mode. That's awesome. As well the image stabilizer too.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D90/D90A3.HTM


I wonder if Canon is going to play the usual "lame duck" approach and not respond. It is however their usual modus operandi.....................

shaocaholica
08-28-2008, 11:59 AM
Since the footage is progressive, you can change it to 23.98 if you wanted to pretty easily without any processing/transcoding. Its simply framerate meta data to you NLE. You can even cut other 23.98 material with it at 24fps, it just gets sped up ever ever so slightly that no one will notice.

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 12:06 PM
no. audio doesn't have a framerate.

cool. thanks zak.

well, my wife is a photographer (shoots nikon, tons of awesome lenses) and has been in the market for a new backup dslr to her d300. and i was literally going to buy a brevis 35 for my hvx yesterday, just before i heard this.

ok, no, this is no hvx by any means, but for a fraction of the price of a new dslr, brevis and glass for the hvx (wife's lenses lock down the aperature when not on a camera so i need new manual lenses) i can get a good mix of all of this, use her lenses, and have $ for that long list of other items i need.

sweet. :beer:

stoiqa
08-28-2008, 12:19 PM
Pre-ordered d90 kit through CC. Keep you posted.

andoguru
08-28-2008, 12:19 PM
Hey Zak,

That footage that was posted isn't actually Nikon D90 footage. I believe the person that made that clip said that it was RED downsampled to the bitrate of the D90 footage and downsized to 720p as well as transcoded into motion jpeg. This was all done to test out how motion jpeg codec held up and how it looked.

Laters,
Ando

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 12:24 PM
I was going to bid on a used Brevis until I saw this a day ago. Not perfect the N90 is, ( nor are working with GG, focus screens and adapters either ) however it's a large cmos 12.1MP frame , no light loss, no Vignetting, no Hotspots and use from 10.5mm lens to a 1000mm+ without compromise you get with using 35mm adapters.

The key thing to remember, the N90 is just the beginning. Much more to come.. Nikon is going to sell even more lenses now.

side note:
As for audio a Zoom H4 4-track recorder for a couple hundred bucks and you have excellent production audio to work with is one of many options.

Simon Höfer
08-28-2008, 12:26 PM
Hey Zak,

That footage that was posted isn't actually Nikon D90 footage. I believe the person that made that clip said that it was RED downsampled to the bitrate of the D90 footage and downsized to 720p as well as transcoded into motion jpeg. This was all done to test out how motion jpeg codec held up and how it looked.

Laters,
Ando

You are looking at the wrong clip. On the site they added another clip, the "D90_orig.avi (http://finalpass.net/videos/MJPEG_test/D90_orig.avi)" clip . Take another look.

andoguru
08-28-2008, 12:32 PM
Oh, my mistake.

Thanks.

j
08-28-2008, 12:38 PM
>As for audio a Zoom H4 4-track recorder for a couple hundred bucks
>and you have excellent production audio to work with is one of many options.

Or perhaps the DVX I have in my closet gathering dust for the last 6 months...

rawfa
08-28-2008, 12:51 PM
Here is an original D90 full res avi clip posted by a guy on a red forum.

http://finalpass.net/videos/MJPEG_test/

http://www.scarletuser.com/showpost.php?p=17460&postcount=77

Is this really a full res original straight out of the D90? To be honest I didn't find the quality that great. I've watched it on my pc monitor and on a 46' Full HD tv and I was not very impressed. I'm talking image quality here, not technique or anything like it. Anyway, it's like we've all been saying the entire day, it's the beginning of something that could be revolutionary. Tough break for adapters manufacturers though.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 01:03 PM
<< it's like we've all been saying the entire day, it's the beginning of something that could be revolutionary. Tough break for adapters manufacturers though.>>>


Totally agree, and the DSLR market is rapid changing so improvements are sure to come sooner from Nikon and compition, especially as they get more user feed back . Yeah it sucks for the adapters guys, however it was always a DIY projects fine tuned taken to a niche market that time was marked. Just started sooner than I thought it was going to happen. However a good thing.

We'll see better footage as the right people get their hands on it.

Tim Naylor
08-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Million Dollar question. Will Convergent Design box be able to record HDMI from the camera? Is the HDMI signal an uncompressed signal or current low bitrate JPEG? If both can mate, what are the monitor out options as most monitors don't have HDMI loop through.

Can you hear me Convergent Design? HDMI loop through is your homework assignment for September.

Now that would be cool. D90, Redrock Mattbox, Follow Focus and CD box all attached to a decent set of rails. A real Franken Camera.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 01:38 PM
Just found this demo filmed using the Nikon N90. It's a small info piece on a female horse rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd94II6EO6s&fmt=18


It appears that we can do some form of under-crank or time-lapse filming. Anyhow, enjoy!

Love the use of the ultra wide lenses. Without compromise..... :)

shaocaholica
08-28-2008, 01:40 PM
Million Dollar question. Will Convergent Design box be able to record HDMI from the camera? Is the HDMI signal an uncompressed signal or current low bitrate JPEG? If both can mate, what are the monitor out options as most monitors don't have HDMI loop through.

Can you hear me Convergent Design? HDMI loop through is your homework assignment for September.

Now that would be cool. D90, Redrock Mattbox, Follow Focus and CD box all attached to a decent set of rails. A real Franken Camera.

I don't think the D90 can output over HDMI at a constant 24fps and with the UI overlay turned off. However, it does support 720p and 1080i output over HDMI, just with the UI overlay as well.

It won't have anything to do with MJPEG unless you're playing back an MJPEG clip. The pure live view will not be compressed except for whatever compression occurs for transmission over HDMI but you still can't get rid of the overlay.

marco0782
08-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I'm curious, does the mechanical shutter fire when recording video or does it operate through an electronic shutter? I ask because 100,000 shutter cycles is barely enough for 60 minutes of video.


Marco

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 01:53 PM
Just found this demo filmed using the Nikon N90. It's a small info piece on a female horse rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd94II6EO6s


It appears that we can do some form of under-crank or time-lapse filming. Anyhow, enjoy!

Love the use of the ultra wide lenses. Without compromise..... :)

I've seen this clip before on Nikons website (flash encoded). They are shooting video... but in one of the smaller modes. NOT HD. Notice how it looks like sh*t on youtube. The photos and video should both downrez to the same resolution when on youtube. I have a feeling they shot that video with the smaller then SD resolution option.

Like I've said, the persons responsible for shooting the demo/test footage for Nikon really screwed the pooch. Most of it looks bad. I bet DVXusers will blow that footy out of the water after 1 day with the camera.

Mark my words, who wants to start the pool?


I'm curious, does the mechanical shutter fire when recording video or does it operate through an electronic shutter? I ask because 100,000 shutter cycles is barely enough for 60 minutes of video.


Marco

Willing to bet it's electric. Only makes sense.

marco0782
08-28-2008, 01:55 PM
Also, I am concerned about rolling shutter issues since it uses CMOS. Can anyone shed light on this?


Marco

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 01:58 PM
Go back a couple of pages, I've been worried about this as well. I'm going to tell you right now, it will be present. How bad? That is yet to be tested.

It's CMOS, it's a big chip, and it's not global.

Take a look at the bicycling clip where the guy goes from screen right to screen left. Look at the rails behind him. As soon as the camera stops panning, I can physically see the bars even out a little. Nothing I would necessarily have noticed if not looking.

DM_rider
08-28-2008, 02:01 PM
Go back a couple of pages, I've been worried about this as well. I'm going to tell you right now, it will be present. How bad? That is yet to be tested.

It's CMOS, it's a big chip, and it's not global.

Take a look at the bicycling clip where the guy goes from screen right to screen left. Look at the rails behind him. As soon as the camera stops panning, I can physically see the bars even out a little. Nothing I would necessarily have noticed if not looking.

watch now, it looks much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd94II6EO6s&fmt=18

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 02:02 PM
it looks to be on par with the HV20's rolling shutter issues.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 02:11 PM
watch now, it looks much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd94II6EO6s&fmt=18

Horse link again!?

First of all, I don't think that footage was shot in HD mode. Just because I've seen it on the nikon website, and it looked low res.

Second, if you are referring to 'better' as meaning no signs of wobble. That horse video really didn't have the type of camera work (pans with straight adjacent elements) to judge from.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 02:14 PM
For the love of texas pete stop watching youtube:

Go Here: http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-SLR/25446/D90.html

And click on the movie link right above the $999 price. It is a larger flash version of horses. You'll see how it was never HD to begin with. It's called "D-Movie Demo"

DM_rider
08-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Horse link again!?

First of all, I don't think that footage was shot in HD mode. Just because I've seen it on the nikon website, and it looked low res.

Second, if you are referring to 'better' as meaning no signs of wobble. That horse video really didn't have the type of camera work (pans with straight adjacent elements) to judge from.

no, I just added &fmt=18 onto the end of the url. It just bumps the quality up a bit.

ryan brown
08-28-2008, 02:17 PM
Is this really a full res original straight out of the D90? To be honest I didn't find the quality that great.

I agree... there's quite a bit of blocking artifacts going on. Honestly, watching that clip took a hit on my hopes. I guess we really can't judge until someone gets their hands on one of these, and posts the raw footage for us to play with on our own.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 02:17 PM
<<<I bet DVXusers will blow that footy out of the water after 1 day with the camera.>>>>


For sure. As soon the N90 is in capable hands we are going to see some amazing stuff. With its low-light ability and no compromise in use of lenses it will be nice to see the work people produce...

Im so looking forward to seeing 3200asa stuff. Imagine a F1.2 at high ASA in a dark moody club scene with strong contrasted light. Maybe even B&W too.......Gritty B&W & shallow DOF...

Nikon if they don't already know, they are about to see a whole new user base community grow and following them coming from unlikely places 1 months ago like DVXuser and other boards. Good things to come.....


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Tim Naylor
08-28-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't think the D90 can output over HDMI at a constant 24fps and with the UI overlay turned off. However, it does support 720p and 1080i output over HDMI, just with the UI overlay as well.

It won't have anything to do with MJPEG unless you're playing back an MJPEG clip. The pure live view will not be compressed except for whatever compression occurs for transmission over HDMI but you still can't get rid of the overlay.

What's UI?

What is the signal that comes from the HDMI?

Parting shot.

I do feel this is the beginning of the end for alot of things. All it takes is a still maker who has no pro-camcorder market to protect. Once there's a better way to record to a decent codec, I'm in. Until then I'll sit this one out and watch.

Anyone know if the Casio EX F1 can do 24fps and for how long? I know it'll do 60fps at full rez raw for ten seconds. Maybe this might still be a better option.

Aroon_Narayanan
08-28-2008, 02:31 PM
UI is user interface, referring to the camera data overlaid on the LCD screen.
Also, the F1 can't do 24p--but it does have some cool slo-mo modes.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 02:40 PM
<<All it takes is a still maker who has no pro-camcorder market to protect>>>

Totaly agree. Below are some company names that come to mind... To bad for Canon, if they choose their typical Modus Operandi tactic, then they'll not be in this game. Which would suck since I shoot with both Nikon can Canon gear. Love both systems.

Nikon
Olympus
Fuji
Pentax
Sigma
Kodak

Zak Forsman
08-28-2008, 02:46 PM
if anyone cares, i uploaded a color test of that bike footage. you can download the 130mb file by scrolling down a bit on the vimeo page. i rendered it out in DVCPROHD 720/24p. looks like HV20 footage to me.

http://www.vimeo.com/1622080

Drew Ott
08-28-2008, 02:49 PM
if anyone cares, i uploaded a color test of that bike footage. you can download the 130mb file by scrolling down a bit on the vimeo page. i rendered it out in DVCPROHD 720/24p. looks like HV20 footage to me.

http://www.vimeo.com/1622080

100 minutes until upload :(

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 02:53 PM
Where is a good place to buy?
I have 0 still lenses, so is it better to get the camera in some kind of kit? If so, what lens is recommended?


The starter lens, a DX series I believe that will come with the camera ( depending on the package you buy of-course ) is not a bad start out lens. However over on reduser.com there is one of the best ever extensive lens tests section with volumes of info to learn and see which might work for you.

What's great with this, is you don't have to worry about buying a f2.8 lens cause there is not the low-light BS to deal with like on 35mm adapters with the loss of stops to focus on a GG.

Best yet you can now invest into a wide array of super wide to the very long telephotos like 1000mm+ lenses with no compromise in getting hotspots or vignetting that come with 35mm adapters.

Another thing, DSLR often will get firmware fixes unlike the video world where this is almost nearly 100% alien to them to do so....

What we need is to get a Nikon contact or representative/sales team person to interact with us on this board. They can learn a lot from this community and it's a good way for them to get to know their future user base like DVXuser etc.



Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

shaocaholica
08-28-2008, 03:02 PM
Good cheap Nikon mount lenses:

All purpose: Tamron 18-270 with OIS, not out yet, probably ~$500
Fast normal DX: Tamron 17-50/2.8
Fast Tele: Tamron 70-200/2.8

Sure you could get the more expensive AF-S VR Nikkors if you can afford them but for a fraction of the price, you can get the Tammy's which perform just as well optically if not better in some circumstances.

shaocaholica
08-28-2008, 03:06 PM
Also, it seems that the Nikon is using 4:2:0 color subsampling during the MJPEG encoding phase. If you look at the chroma channels in bike source video, you'll see it. I haven't checked personally but Graeme over at Scarletuser has.

brian leahy
08-28-2008, 03:07 PM
More d90 samples, (flash video)

UPDATE: Strongly suspect below samples are not from the nikon d90, sorry!

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159276

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159292

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159288

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159289

UPDATE: Strongly suspect above samples are not from the nikon d90, sorry!

stoiqa
08-28-2008, 03:15 PM
Liked the second and third one...you should put on a tripod and get some steady shoots...otherwise the third one with the 50mm f1.4 looks very nice.

Is that a Nikon store?

Is the camera already available in Japan for sale?

Jared Meyer
08-28-2008, 03:16 PM
Wow...lots and lots of skew from even the tiniest movement and there's some really funky flicker from the auto-exposure in the lens cap clip. If that's as good as it gets, I guess I'd have to say my interest in it is pretty limited.

j
08-28-2008, 03:24 PM
That last clip made me sea-sick.

brian leahy
08-28-2008, 03:25 PM
i picked above samples up over on the dpreview forum see link

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1034&message=29109436&q=dmovie&qf=m

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 03:37 PM
I think that first clip is really jittery, but in all fairness those waves we see traveling around, may be a reflection of a television or computer monitor off the glass counter. No?

You sure this is the D-90! Looks really skewy on that last one!!!

Do you think the shutter is causing that? Perhaps longer exposure times = more skew? I am unfamiliar with how cmos skew controlled.

ryan brown
08-28-2008, 03:44 PM
Yeah... those clips suck. I don't think that's what we're going to get though - The clips on the website didn't have any of the issue's those do. This one could go either way, but I'm definitely not judging from the clips just posted.

I didn't realize there was a mic, though.

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 04:08 PM
A guy from RED checked the file that was from Vimeo, that wasn't the original file to begin with. so, there's no actual telling what the color sampling actually is. did he also mention Scarlet is the better camera too?

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 05:03 PM
Those clips look nothing like the ones on the nikon website- the rolling shutter looks totally different.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 05:05 PM
That looks more like 30fps live view from some other camera....

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Brian Leahy must be a Canon employee :laugh:

brian leahy
08-28-2008, 05:24 PM
yeah i agree they don't look like any of the samples on nikons site, also "nikon d90" translated into japanese does not not appear on their sites search results also there is no reference to the d90 on any of these sample pages, therefore i would say that these are not actually d90 videos.

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 05:26 PM
its probably that samsung nv24 camera on that vimeo page shooting HD at 30fps

Mosin
08-28-2008, 05:32 PM
Can this really replace a proper camcorder and a 35mm adapter? apart from the fixed framerates and inability to shoot 1080p?

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 05:47 PM
zak did you delete this?: http://www.vimeo.com/1622080

i get a message saying it's not found.

joe 1008
08-28-2008, 05:50 PM
More d90 samples, (flash video)

UPDATE: Strongly suspect below samples are not from the nikon d90, sorry!

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159276

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159292

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159288

http://eyevio.jp/movie/159289

UPDATE: Strongly suspect above samples are not from the nikon d90, sorry!

hope you are right!!!

ryan brown
08-28-2008, 06:13 PM
zak did you delete this?: http://www.vimeo.com/1622080

i get a message saying it's not found.

What's going on here?? is it Vimeo that's deleting these files? because now there's ZERO clips on vimeo and the D90. They've all been deleted...

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 06:15 PM
What's going on here?? is it Vimeo that's deleting these files? because now there's ZERO clips on vimeo and the D90. They've all been deleted...

hmmmmmmm. did nikon have them pulled or something? i haven't checked youtube.

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 06:18 PM
I just went to get that file of the N90 and it was gone too! Whats up?

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 06:23 PM
I downloaded the avi yesterday, I will upload it to vimeo in a bit and post the link.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 06:25 PM
Can this really replace a proper camcorder and a 35mm adapter? apart from the fixed framerates and inability to shoot 1080p?

That depends on your definition of "proper", my short answer would be yes.

Justyn
08-28-2008, 06:44 PM
To me.. this is the embryo of what the Scarlet will be... or what it hopes to be. I'll gladly wait for that time, but what I think is most exciting about this camera is that it just shoots video. I shoot video on my pocket digital camera now.. when I'm out and don't have a video camera. That's what this intial model is so badass. It's about as good as the 300D, which I was looking at, it's cheaper, and it shoots video. I think that the line will be blurred over time. One guy will go out.. shoot video and stills all in the same camera... It is a harbinger of the future and the line will blurr. Now, let's see what happens to the market with this... with the scarlett and then the other answers on the horizon

Texanite
08-28-2008, 07:07 PM
To me.. this is the embryo of what the Scarlet will be... or what it hopes to be.

The embryo of the Scarlet? I don't know about that. The D90 is the embryo of what the Scarlet ISN'T. The D90 is already offering things that everybody wishes the Scarlet would: It's a third of the price, it has a bigger sensor and takes 35mm lenses instead of having a fixed zoom. This isn't a baby version of the Scarlet. In these things, it's already surpassed what the Scarlet is offering.

It's the very first of what will be relatively inexpensive cameras that shoot HD video with large sensors and take 35mm lenses. Nikon D100 FTW!

zcream
08-28-2008, 07:22 PM
Would someone with an actual D90 in their hands confirm if the overlay can be turned off ? Its possible that its on by default as in the HV20..But I'm sure there is some menu setting - probably obscure to turn it off..
C'mon Nikon, there must be a way to get a 1080p video output on HDMI WITHOUT the UI overlay..


I don't think the D90 can output over HDMI at a constant 24fps and with the UI overlay turned off. However, it does support 720p and 1080i output over HDMI, just with the UI overlay as well.

It won't have anything to do with MJPEG unless you're playing back an MJPEG clip. The pure live view will not be compressed except for whatever compression occurs for transmission over HDMI but you still can't get rid of the overlay.

stoiqa
08-28-2008, 07:28 PM
http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/d90/en/d-movie/#c-4

John Caballero
08-28-2008, 07:31 PM
Yep! I knew surprising things where happening. I just did not think Nikon would be the first one to move up to the plate. The still cameras have all the hardware basically in place for this. Smaller still cameras were already shooting video, so the most logical evolution was for the DSLRs to go at it. If you announce a produt at least a year in advance things like this happen. The big camera companies are not sitting around waiting for Scarlet to just come out without a fight. Eventually PRO stills and PRO motion capture footage will be coming out of DSLRs with as much quality as a Red one. Thats technology evolution and competition.

stoiqa
08-28-2008, 07:35 PM
you can say that one more time....evolution and competition,that leads to better products and tools to develop our ideas...

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Hunter, maybe you/forum should put together a faq on the first page...

There is no solid proof, other than what the website dppreview says about exposure lock. So far it's been said it can be locked, but I can't tell if they mean for just still or d-movie or both. Hopefully it's both.

Texanite
08-28-2008, 08:03 PM
There is no solid proof, other than what the website dppreview says about exposure lock. So far it's been said it can be locked, but I can't tell if they mean for just still or d-movie or both. Hopefully it's both.

It seems odd to me that so many (or all?) of the D90 video shows the image changing exposure as they shoot. If the exposure can be locked, it seems like somebody wanting to show-off the video aspects of the camera would try to make the footage look as good as possible and not look like an amature was shooting in fully automatic mode.

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 08:24 PM
because i think it was amatuer photographers using the camera....there are 4 videos that definitely dont have changing exposures...girl in park, girls talking, girl drinking coffee and peole walking in street....none of those have flicker...that i can tell

slimchrisp
08-28-2008, 08:33 PM
The embryo of the Scarlet? I don't know about that. The D90 is the embryo of what the Scarlet ISN'T.

that's what i'm saying. 35mm nikon glass trumps 3K in my book. i'm not saying the d90 beats what we believe scarlet to be, but it's pointing in that direction. basically if a year or two go by and we have a comparable compression ratio to what the hvx offers and 1080 resolution, i'll take that with nikon lenses and great light sensitivity over 3k any day. especially since everything i'm doing at this point in my career is pretty much just going to be viewed on dvd or bluray.

don't flame me. i know i'm not giving scarlet all its due props. just saying. this is huge.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 08:37 PM
dpreview says the exposure can be locked, another page says it is always automatic, and yet another page says you set the iso/shutter/ and iris before pressing record and it stays the same during the entire recording (as in all manual). We might just have to wait and see on this one, I am still buying it , like I said, I need a new home video camera anyways...

Justyn
08-28-2008, 08:46 PM
The embryo of the Scarlet? I don't know about that. The D90 is the embryo of what the Scarlet ISN'T. The D90 is already offering things that everybody wishes the Scarlet would: It's a third of the price, it has a bigger sensor and takes 35mm lenses instead of having a fixed zoom. This isn't a baby version of the Scarlet. In these things, it's already surpassed what the Scarlet is offering.

It's the very first of what will be relatively inexpensive cameras that shoot HD video with large sensors and take 35mm lenses. Nikon D100 FTW!


How can this surpass something when it's so limited in scope. Albeit awesome in it's added quality to a still camera, but it's going to have limited professional attributes that even an entry level camcorder will have.. It only shoots 24p, the audio is going to be horrible, it won't be able to adjust shutter, iris, zoom and that. Zooming a still lens... good luck with that one. Overall, there's very little that can be done to get smooth operation as it will be piddly and tempermental at best. Work arounds will be required like with the HV20 and such. Now, I think it's the start of what might happen but a camera will have to make more consessions on the video side to make it an option..

personally it's more of a still camera that does video and not what Scarlett offers. Being able to shoot 180 Frames a second is so badass I can almost spit... This item is awsome and I want one, but not as a video camera replacement..



A simple look at the specs does not a camera make. There has to be a functionality and an elegance to it's operation..

shaocaholica
08-28-2008, 09:04 PM
it won't be able to adjust shutter, iris, zoom and that.

Im pretty sure you can adjust all of those to your liking.

Or do you mean you want all those things to be controlled by the camera? If so, why?

PappasArts
08-28-2008, 09:16 PM
The Nikon D90 should not be stripped down as much as it actually should be recognized as a window of what's to come. Nikon has took a major bold step; outside of that it was RED with its price point for performance jump that changed a lot of how things will be from now on.

Now comes Nikon with a long history and wherewithal* to deliver outstanding products. Nikon realeasing the first in affordable large frame HD acquisition with Nikon as well 3rd party lens options, at the same time getting us away from the compromise imposed by technical limitations of 35mm adapters & small chips cameras, means over time the D90, as well future version and it's competition will be a welcomed step in the right direction. Im sure some issues will get firmware dealt with on the current model. Some need to see that this is a major step forward, and there's no going back. We have two choices; we could over analyze the D90, or recognizes this is a good beginning to even better future.

Like someone mentioned earlier, wait tell some DVXusers get the D90 and produce out-standing creative projects, instead of hindering themselves and their creative drive about what the D90 isn't. I for one look forward to seeing some awesome footage and projects from others.

my 0.02 cents....

Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Rubbersquare
08-28-2008, 09:23 PM
what i've learned is a good dp (or other tech person) can get an amazing image from just about anything. heck, a series of still images run together can tell an amazing story. artists are not defined by their medium; the medium just makes it easier for more people to try to be artists.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 09:31 PM
I just love the idea of "filming" discreetly, I allready shoot 1/2 of the time without permits, This would make stealth shooting so easy

...I keep on having to ask my self if I am dreaming all of this, did nikon really make a mini cinema camera on accident?

anthonyt
08-28-2008, 09:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0eySBmFUPY

hey guys just played with the video alil. have a look

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 09:37 PM
laugh, didn't even think about discreet shooting. it's not some big hunk gadget on yourshoulder or tripod..people will just think, "hey, they're just taking pictures"

but yeah, there's no way this was an accident especially when they seem to be pushing "shallow depth of field" in almost all the tech/specs

Rubbersquare
08-28-2008, 09:38 PM
why is that the same one zak uploaded?

anthonyt
08-28-2008, 09:42 PM
downloaded the sampled one and just graded it to see how it'll look like, just thought i might share it with you all.

John Godden
08-28-2008, 09:42 PM
13.56 mbits/s

How did you come up with that #?

regards
JohnG

Dan Vance
08-28-2008, 09:47 PM
If it really interpolates the whole frame, rather than cropping--which seems to be the case--that implies that all sites are sampled, then downconverted to 720. And if that is also the case, it opens the door to an Andromeda-like conversion where the pixel info is taken before the Motion JPEG compression. But of course, "interpolation" can have many meanings...

Umcompressed, Super35 image size, with a PL mount, for maybe $4000? Yeah, I could live with a rolling shutter...

Juan! We need you!!

Okeefe
08-28-2008, 10:21 PM
I had finally decided on a Canon HF 100 with 35mm adapter until I saw this thread tonight. Now, as a newbie, I'm undecided again. What's the right choice given a budget of $1500? What will I gain or be giving up going to the D90?

Also, if recording is 5 or 20 min at a time, how long of rest period before engaging another shoot?

I have grown to admire Nikon for over 30 years now as a still photographer, well aware of the quality.

Thanks.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 10:33 PM
wait until the camera actually comes out.


I had finally decided on a Canon HF 100 with 35mm adapter until I saw this thread tonight. Now, as a newbie, I'm undecided again. What's the right choice given a budget of $1500? What will I gain or be giving up going to the D90?

Also, if recording is 5 or 20 min at a time, how long of rest period before engaging another shoot?

I have grown to admire Nikon for over 30 years now as a still photographer, well aware of the quality.

Thanks.

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 10:37 PM
I would think the sensor is being sampled in a pixel binning method- I doubt the d90 has the processing power to process 4k+ images @ 24 fps. BUT! I am sure you can hack the bit rate on these things, just like those crazy group of camera hackers did with the canon powershot series. We are going to need a firmware decoder for this camera!



If it really interpolates the whole frame, rather than cropping--which seems to be the case--that implies that all sites are sampled, then downconverted to 720. And if that is also the case, it opens the door to an Andromeda-like conversion where the pixel info is taken before the Motion JPEG compression. But of course, "interpolation" can have many meanings...

Umcompressed, Super35 image size, with a PL mount, for maybe $4000? Yeah, I could live with a rolling shutter...

Juan! We need you!!

puredrifting
08-28-2008, 10:48 PM
I just went to get that file of the N90 and it was gone too! Whats up?

It's "D90". The N90 was an old Nikon film camera.

Dan

rawfa
08-28-2008, 10:57 PM
that's what i'm saying. 35mm nikon glass trumps 3K in my book. i'm not saying the d90 beats what we believe scarlet to be, but it's pointing in that direction. basically if a year or two go by and we have a comparable compression ration to what the hvx offers and 1080 resolution, i'll take that with nikon lenses and great light sensitivity over 3k any day. especially since everything i'm doing at this point in my career is pretty much just going to be viewed on dvd or bluray.

don't flame me. i know i'm not giving scarlet all its due props. just saying. this is huge.

There's a huge number of people who work as photographers and camera operators and when a DSLR finally manage to provide quality digital video this line will start to merge, as will these 2 fields of work...if the market is agressive right now, just wait a few years. I can see A LOT of people going out of business.
I absolutely love the idea of a DSLR that can provide quality HDV/HD, but it's just a hobby for me...

Hunter Hampton
08-28-2008, 11:46 PM
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachments/digital-video-industry-news/8815d1219942590-nikon-d90-has-720p24-over-hdmi-d90.jpg

I knew it would happen.

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 11:50 PM
Yeah, this is posted over at dvinfo.net...but I'm 100% sure they have "auto exposure lock" and "auto focus lock" ...that's what the AE-L and AF-L are. So far whatever works in still mode is seemingly possible in d-mode. So we can bet that the flicker will dissappear.

John Caballero
08-28-2008, 11:58 PM
Boy oh boy! The dawn of a brand new era? The word videographer takes a brand new meaning.

Park Edwards
08-28-2008, 11:59 PM
So the guys over a nikon usa will get it about 2weeks before it's released so probably by next week, if it's supposedly going to release on 8-16 they, they should have it. The guy straight up said he works there because he likes photography but more of a film/video guy himself and is interested in the d-mode too.

Hunter Hampton
08-29-2008, 12:00 AM
Yes! I was just going to say that over at Chris jarvis's blog (who tested the d90) a person said this (I think he was one of the d90 testers with chris) in response to many questions about the dreaded automatic exposure:

"The exposure is lockable in D-Movie mode, no jumpy auto exposure changes."

BRILLIANT!

John Caballero
08-29-2008, 12:04 AM
Brilliant indeed!

DM_rider
08-29-2008, 12:15 AM
wow, this thread has grown... took me a while to catch up.

Park Edwards
08-29-2008, 12:19 AM
it has begun.....

Zak Forsman
08-29-2008, 12:30 AM
okay, here's the clip i tried to upload to vimeo. vimeo denied it for some reason.

i imported the original AVI into FCP, made three passes of alternating color grades, then rendered out as DVCPROHD 720/24p. as i said before, when looked at with a critical eye, i'd say it looks like HV20 footage top me in terms of rolling shutter and compression artifacts. as long as exposure is lockable in d-movie mode. i'm buying one.

http://www.sabillc.com/nikond90_colortests.mov (136mb)

lisa hayse
08-29-2008, 12:38 AM
"The exposure is lockable in D-Movie mode, no jumpy auto exposure changes."

Now I am paying attention.

So with that short video with the stunt bike doing a 360 - was that lock in or auto?
It seemed real jumpy.

Park Edwards
08-29-2008, 12:49 AM
auto....unless lock sucks and that's probably not the case

logic108
08-29-2008, 12:58 AM
Exposure is definitely lockable. The only thing that cannot be adjusted is the metering mode.
So you can use the cameras automatic focus all the way until you push the 'liveview' button. From there on you cannot use auto-focus (obvious right? Nope - see edit).
So you are in Liveview mode and you can set the iso and shutter speed and aperture and picture style and exposure lock. All in Liveview mode. Then you press the centre 'o.k' button and you begin recording. EDIT - you can auto-focus in Live view as well - in 'contast-detect' mode and there is a face-tracking feature! When in focus a square around the persons face will go from yellow to green to show focus lock!
When you look on Nikons website that showcases the D-Movie mode you can see there are a number of videos that don't jump in exposure. I particularly like the 'picture style' video in black and white. In this video you can see no exposure compensation or jumpiness going on.
The 'picture style' mode is great - you could dial in whatever style you like. ISO can be pushed to 6400! What is not to like? The LCD is the best quality LCD on a 'prosumer' video camera to date - accurate focusing wont be a problem.
You can even auto-focus out of 'live view' then switch to 'live view' and record then stop and auto-focus again quickly and back into live view and record again - bam bam bam. Very quickly and with stealth.
If the quality is as good as as the HV20 then we are winning. But of course this is a great stills camera as well. And some of the Nikon lenses are to die for. Minimal lighting shots will absolutely possible.
As for editing - Photoshop extended will be easily able to deal with this footage and I can apply some of my great Photoshop plug-ins - like Noiseware - to smooth out footage shot at ISO 6400 etc etc.
It's great and I think it might change the way footage is edited - at least color corrected and graded?

rawfa
08-29-2008, 01:27 AM
Until we get some decent samples I'm yet to be sold regarding picture quality. I'm praying someone will prove me wrong :)

Park Edwards
08-29-2008, 02:05 AM
guess it's a matter of taste, but the bike footage avi, not streaming, was great.
i was playing with it in CS3 which is a dream come true for me seeing how i sit and do photoshop 10hrs a day. This will make grading soooooo awesome. And it played smooth the entire time. things like rgb, hue sat, exposure, are just one of many things that can be done in CS3.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-29-2008, 04:11 AM
Where is Juan? I want him to start dissecting the D-90 when it comes out and give us an Andromeda/Hydro (http://www.reel-stream.com/index.php)version!

If you don't know, this guy is a genius and in the past (http://www.reel-stream.com/index.php) has been hacking into the DVX/HVX camera CCD's and getting a super clean, larger resolution, 4-4-4 sample. By skipping the compression and codec stage you are basically getting a huge data stream directly off of the sensor and through a custom Ethernet or firewire cable to a computer.

Imagine if he could drag that 720 signal off the D-90 without having to compress that video to mpeg2 or whatever it is.

lol

Waaaaay to early to start this conversation but it's a cool thought.

rawfa
08-29-2008, 05:26 AM
That would be incredible, Ryan...but want' the whole Andromeda/Hydra project officialy over?

Toenis
08-29-2008, 05:31 AM
Ohh, if the HDMI out works on D90 all the time and the output is selectable to different display modes, with live histogram, grid etc you can attach a hyper quality external LCD to the cam's hotshoe and off you go.
An interesting and really affordable HDMI LCD development is seen here http://www.smallhd.com/showcase.html - they are coming up with 10" LCD in two weeks if I remember correctly, with 1280px native resolution HDMI input!

Cheers,
T

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-29-2008, 05:33 AM
That would be incredible, Ryan...but want' the whole Andromeda/Hydra project officialy over?

Yeah, he stopped doing work on the HVX and DVX. I heard someone bought him out or something, which prevented him from continuing to make the mods.

I figured this might be a slightly different process perhaps allowing him, if he so desired to hack away. Let's get Juan back out from where ever he went! :)

rawfa
08-29-2008, 05:34 AM
At Cineform's website there's a prototype for a HDMI capture device for the HV20. Maybe this could be adapted for the D90. The device is pretty small, which would not limit the D90's portability.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-29-2008, 05:35 AM
At Cineform's website there's a prototype for a HDMI capture device for the HV20. Maybe this could be adapted for the D90.

What is the technical benefit of that? Does that skip the compression?

rawfa
08-29-2008, 05:41 AM
Check it out: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm
Hum, I'm not sure if this was the one....

Toenis
08-29-2008, 05:44 AM
What is the technical benefit of that? Does that skip the compression?

Yes, it will skip the compression although it will compress the signal to Cineform I assume. But still usable only then if D90 could output a clear image, without metadata, via HDMI. If not the clean 1080i image can be achieved via firmware update at least as the HDMI output supports ZOOM in etc at full 1080i rez. Check the D300 specs or samples about HDMI functionality, I assume it will be close to what D90 will have.


T

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-29-2008, 05:45 AM
Check it out: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm
Hum, I'm not sure if this was the one....


*Sigh* I still have my Cineporter T-shirt lol :)

Yeah, not sure about that! If it gets released we will know more I suppose.

Can't computers just record the signal? There has to be about a dozen programs out there.

brian leahy
08-29-2008, 06:30 AM
Apparently the new canon 5D mark ll (not announced yet but is to be released around the same time as the d90) is rumored to be able to record 1080p HD with a 21.1 MP sensor, also more rumours suggest that Nikons new D3x will have a movie mode. Also in march 09, nikon will announce something quote "BIG"!

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-29-2008, 07:22 AM
Haha, there you go again. You must be a Canon employee. :laugh:

leteeci
08-29-2008, 07:32 AM
Haha, there you go again. You must be a Canon employee. :laugh:

Cool!

You must get us firmware info for all the recent camcorders !!!!

:Drogar-Love(DBG):

Hunter Hampton
08-29-2008, 09:24 AM
I have a feeling that if and when Canon releases a movie mode on its slr's you can bet its going to be crippled in some major way. Maybe one day Canon will step up their "high-end" video cameras though with one of their large cmos sensors and an EOS mount.

Hunter Hampton
08-29-2008, 09:29 AM
Here is the bike footage on vimeo again: http://vimeo.com/1624029

You can download the original avi at the bottom right of the page

ryan brown
08-29-2008, 09:39 AM
Apparently the new canon 5D mark ll (not announced yet but is to be released around the same time as the d90) is rumored to be able to record 1080p HD with a 21.1 MP sensor, also more rumours suggest that Nikons new D3x will have a movie mode. Also in march 09, nikon will announce something quote "BIG"!

Here's where that rumor started ;)

http://gizmodo.com/5043240/unconfirmed-more-canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-specs-leak-lookin-good

John Caballero
08-29-2008, 09:45 AM
I am sure there are"big" things coming. This is only the begining guys.

Park Edwards
08-29-2008, 10:06 AM
how many think that the 5min limit to one take is going to be a problem? it says "risk of overheating". i personally think that a single take will never be longer than 5mins, but what if shooting in d-mode causes it to wear the cmos chip down faster. shoot 2mins-stop-shoot 3mins-stop-shoot 4mins-stop-shoot 2mins....etc..etc..