Scriptfest guidelines

[Isaac_Brody]

I got caught up in work the past few months and didn't post guidelines, but I'd like to open the forum and get your feedback on what you want to see as formatting rules. Post your suggestions here and I'll throw em all together.


:dankk2:

[alex whitmer]

Things like ...

*Tiltle page
*No scene numbers
*No directing on the page - we this and we that, camera pans down ...
*Fade In and Fade Out - Several ixnayed this step and bought some space
*Page limit - enforced
*Font size - 11.5 can slip by undetected and buy the writer a few coveted lines
*Font style


Nothing Draconian to take the fun out of it (like the Olympics), just a few basics. If the writer chooses to use 15 lines for action, and use catywumpas slugs, so be it, but be prepared to get rapped for it !!.

Style and the writer's voice, not to mention story, are just as important as the beautiful page, and visa-versa.

Seek balance.

a

[seansshack]

no cuts (cut to:)

[Captain Pierce]

Alex already posted some of his ideas in my "Next Fest" thread, but I'll respond to them here. :)



*Tiltle page
*No scene numbers
*No directing on the page - we this and we that, camera pans down ...
*Fade In and Fade Out - Several ixnayed this step and bought some space
*Page limit - enforced
*Font size - 11.5 can slip by undetected and buy the writer a few coveted lines
*Font style

The thing in this list that bothers me is "No direction on the page." IMO, that's a completely subjective thing, based on unwritten rules that seem to change over time, and can't really be enforced. I would prefer to keep the guidelines to entirely objective things like, well, pretty much everything else he mentioned. :)

I wonder, though, how strictly can font size be enforced given that we upload .pdf's? Don't get me wrong, I do think it should be enforced, but I would think that would be tough given the delivery format.

And I'll echo in this thread my suggestion from the other thread that we should provide some sort of guidance for people as to how to meet the guidelines. I'll presume that those of us who use software like Final Draft or Movie Magic Screenwriter are pretty much off the hook with regard to font size, style, pages, etc (at least, as a Screenwriter 2000 user, I hope so :D ), but it was mentioned in one script's discussion thread that Celtx can be tricky. I know we can't cover every option that people have, but I think if we could have a Celtx tutorial, and maybe one for creating a Word template, we could probably cover the majority.

[alex whitmer]

The thing in this list that bothers me is "No direction on the page." IMO, that's a completely subjective thing, based on unwritten rules that seem to change over time, and can't really be enforced

Agree, some of the 'guidelines' can't really be enforced, and are indeed fluid even in the professional ranks, but they could be there as, well, guidelines. I favor a short lists of 'musts' and longer list of 'recommended'.

I always hated the word 'enforced' anyways.


a

[Isaac_Brody]

I think there are musts such as use of fonts, page limits, typos, that sort of thing can be pretty rigid. When it comes to style I'm more lenient.

[seansshack]

How about a guide to submit and a guide on how to score.

So if you direct with camera moves, and we see etc. You are still in, but may lose points?

But forced rules:

Cover page
Font
Page length

at least?

[alex whitmer]

This from scriptfrenzy ...

Camera Directions:

These indicate how close the camera is, how it will move, focus, etc. Directions include POV shots, pans, tilts, push ins, pull outs, dolly moves, tracking shots, close ups, wides, etc. It's incredibly tempting, as story mastermind, to direct your movie on the page using Camera Directions. Resist this temptation. You aren't the director (yet). Unless there's absolutely no other way to communicate a visual sequence upon which your entire plot hinges, leave Camera Directions out.

And this per Sean...

Cuts:

Once upon a time, it was standard to use the words "CUT TO:" to indicate a change in scene. Nowadays, the cut that comes with a scene change is implied by a new Slugline and CUT TO isn't used as much. The best time to use CUT TO is when you really want to emphasize the juxtaposition or shift between two scenes

Note that you may see writers using terms like JUMP CUT or SMASH CUT to imply a super-fast, in-your-face editing style. If using BRUCE LEE KARATE CHOP CUT makes you feel like a bad-ass, then go for it; just know that many pros consider it amateurish. Besides, no matter how it's written, a cut always happens in 1/24th of a second - the amount of time it takes to switch from one frame to the next.


Again, just a few musts so as to not to discourage participation

[arroway]

*No directing on the page - we this and we that, camera pans down ...


while i think "we see" is usually a cop-out that could have been handled more eloquently...sometimes, very rarely, it has its place.

just like the occasional camera direction.

my evidence for this is damn near 100% of the innumerable professional screenplays i've read over the years.

the only people that harp on "we see" are amateurs. the pros don't care.


my advice for the next fest is to confine the scripts to a rough budget. no one is at their creative best when they're working with unlimited resources. especially for a contest designed around "the twilight zone" which was notorious for accomplishing so much with so little.

BUT MORE IMPORTANT than any of that...comments should be revealed only when the voting period is over. this is how almost all online contests and workshops are handled and for good reason. there's too much influence between critiques when the work isn't read fresh. plus, spoilers would no longer be an issue...

[krestofre]

BUT MORE IMPORTANT than any of that...comments should be revealed only when the voting period is over. this is how almost all online contests and workshops are handled and for good reason. there's too much influence between critiques when the work isn't read fresh. plus, spoilers would no longer be an issue...

I strongly disagree with that idea. One of the largest benefits is to see the exchange between everyone as much as, and in some cases more, than the initial comment. Encouraging people to read the script, vote, and then post their comments, sure, but keeping it hidden until the end strikes me as counter productive.

I'm not completely blind to what you're talking about, however. I'll admit that there were a couple of times I changed my vote because of the comments, but it always resulted in my casting a higher vote because something I read in the comments made me pick up on something that I missed as a reader and in each case I appreciated the script more.

[arroway]

you don't think discussions would occur after the comments are revealed and the votes are cast?

[thartley]

I'm with Krestofre on this one. At the stage the scriptfests are at right now with mainly increased knowledge, practice and skill as the prizes, the immediate feedback on submissions is great. I pretty much made my own comments without reading others' posts and not once did I change the way I rated a script based on someone else's comment on it.

If there were a set panel of judges, instead of voting by peers, I would say hold comments til after. But this is like a roundtable critique process, and its helpful to keep it as it is.

[jasonthewho]

Judging from other fests I've been a part of, it seems that commenting generally stops after the announcement of winners.

I think that although reading comments can influence voting, it's better than not receiving any comments at all.

[krestofre]

I agree with what Thartley and Jason said. :)

[Captain Pierce]

I never changed my vote because of comments, but I did change my comments because of other comments.


Judging from other fests I've been a part of, it seems that commenting generally stops after the announcement of winners.

ScriptFest I is a pretty good example of that... admittedly, it might be different if you couldn't comment until after the voting was in, but that's never been the way that DVXUser has worked...

[Isaac_Brody]

BUT MORE IMPORTANT than any of that...comments should be revealed only when the voting period is over. this is how almost all online contests and workshops are handled and for good reason. there's too much influence between critiques when the work isn't read fresh. plus, spoilers would no longer be an issue...

That would take the wind out of this pretty quickly. I like the workshop setup, I think there's more gained from the feedback coming back and forth. And really, if you're worried about spoilers you should read the script first before clicking on that big juicy tempting thread. I do read comments before responding, just so I don't totally rehash what's been said, or just to simply reiterate by saying so and so said it well and I agree.

[arroway]

I'm curious which 'pros' your are referring to.

the half-dozen working Hollywood writers i know personally and the professionals whose work i've read including their spec scripts, many of which are readily available online.


Screenwriters who write specs are bound by different rules than those who write per a contract, or those who film their own material.

bound by different rules? where are these mythical rules specified exactly? oh, that's right, nowhere! only in how-to books written solely to sap money from amateur writers who would rather steadfastly concentrate on an ever-changing list of irrelevant guidelines that no one in the business adheres to or cares about rather than concentrate on telling an honest-to-god good story.

your fervor for these "rules" is even more ridiculous when you consider how much passive voice is in your entry...the excision of which is another BIG RULE (that we are apparently bound by writer law to comply with until we receive our get-out-of-jail-free WGA card)...that all the how-to books twist themselves in knots over.

in any case, i agree that you should keep any such devices to a minimum but that's about the extent of it.

the only rule anyone is bound by is to tell a great story and even that's debatable considering the schlock released in theaters every week.

sorry to bust your bubble.

[thartley]

From the scripts I've read here and elsewhere, I have found that those that are written in a particular format are much easier for me to read. Any camera direction takes me out of the story when I am reading a script "for the story". Just as the use of "We" and other pronouns do in the descriptions. Makes me feel I am being talked at instead of just being in the story.

Alot of the formatting things, I am just learning. But in the process of trying to get a handle on technique for this fest, as a newbie but frequent reader of many types of writing, those things I mentioned bother me.


One thing I don't understand is why scene numbers are wrong. I can't remember if I used them in my submission or not, because I had them and then took them out, but may have added them again because they were helpful to me in my re-writes and revisions. But what's the deal with using vs not using them?

[jamiejay]

I can't even begin to make suggestions about formatting because I am new to script writing, but, as someone who is new, guidelines for formatting would have been very much appreciated. I'm sure people judged my script based on my formatting errors, but those errors wouldn't have been there if I had something to go on other than just six pages. So I am glad we are going to be more clear about what's expected in the future. :)

I would also like to say that, based on the comments in nearly every single thread, six pages seems to be too short. I'm not even just saying that for me. If I had to tell a story in six pages, I would find a way to do it no matter what the guidelines, but when the page limit becomes the reason why nearly every script isn't as good as it could have been, that seems easily fixable. Just a thought...

[ConspiracyPenguin]

There are plenty of ways to avoid "WE," and those techniques should be employed at all times. That being said, the term (in my opinion) refers to the writer and the people reading/viewing, so it DOES make sense in that respect but I think it is a slippery slope where directions are concerned. Don't use camera directions, people will murder you.

Also, I think some of those things are a bit petty:


*No scene numbers
*Fade In and Fade Out - Several ixnayed this step and bought some space
*Font size - 11.5 can slip by undetected and buy the writer a few coveted lines

What's wrong with scene numbers? I didn't use them, but just wondering.

Fade in/fade out or cut to: I don't see the problem with these phrases. I mean, if you refrain to buy more page room, fine, but I don't think there should be a rule prohibiting the use of them.

How they hell can we measure font size? Should I get out my fancy Pixel Ruler? (By the way, that is trademarked by me, so don't use it! :)) My point is, what's the big deal about .5? When there is a page limit and you are one or two lines over, I don't see an issue here. I have done it numerous times on school papers, etc (never on scripts, because I use the standard format in the program)

[arroway]

Based on your critiques you really don't like passive voice. I believe you said on a few occasions 'it doesn't belong in a script'.

i don't think so. i did say huge blocks of redundant pornographic description doesn't belong in a script. maybe that's what you're thinking of.


Is that a rule?no. merely a personal preference with obvious inherit logic to it.


Where's it written?i think it's hilarious how you're trying to throw this back at me. it's like watching a kitten roll around with a ball of string mewing at itself.

the fact is we come from completely different schools of thought. you THINK there are these mythical rules that are sacrilege to break while i KNOW that hollywood's movers and shakers don't have the inclination (or more importantly, time) to care about anything but a well-told commercial story.

i will concede you the point that there are are a handful of studio/prodco/agency script readers, at any given time, who have their priorities so out of whack that they would stamp PASS on an otherwise great script because they ran across too many "we sees'.

...but then, you also have to consider that there are a handful of studio/prodco/agency readers, at any given time, who will do the same thing if they don't like a particular genre, or female protagonists, or overly-long titles or a hundred other idiot excuses for not recognizing something viable when it's literally staring them in the face.

the good news is those readers don't last long so try not to worry about it.


You also really don't like 'high-budget' thinking, even for the sake of having funno. what i don't like is high budget complacency in a contest designed around "the twilight zone" which is known for being the antithesis to big budget complacency. if that makes me a fun killing curmudgeon so be it...


I've got an idea. Instead of referring to them as rules (or 'guidelines' as they were called when this thread started out), let's call them pet peeves and move on. I have mine, and you have yourscongratulations! i think you've just had a breakthrough! you went from "RULES writers are BOUND to comply with" to "personal pet peeves".

that's what i call progress.

:beer:


Let's agree to disagree.if you were sincere in your last comment, we don't disagree on anything at all. there are no rules, only pet peeves which don't mean squat in the grand scheme of things.

cheers.

[Noel Evans]

I knew this thread would spark debate. But I think its good.

My only consideration for the guidelines is something that we all must work and adhere to, so that the start point is even for all. And, that helps people who enter follow a format that is fairly standard, the point of this is to grow so I dont feel being nitpicked for format is bad at all.

Personally, my point of view is there should be 0 direction in writing a script. But thats what I have learned and as such have followed the same view.

Anyway on and up.

[Isaac_Brody]

And let's try and relax...

For the sake of moving forward, it pisses me off when I see too many "we see's" in a script. So I'm gonna side with forcing all of you not to use them. So sue me, you can go crazy when you send your scripts to hollywood big wigs, but in my house, no use of "we."

Ahh, gotta love dictatorship. :)

[jamiejay]

I'm not opposed to any rules the fest has because, well, if you don't like them, don't enter.

As a writer, I understand where some people are coming from about the rules are meant to be broken idea... but, on the other hand, as amateurs in an amateur competition, we need rules as a guide to keep the playing field even; and it's a good way to help beginners (like me) learn. You have to be a master of the rules before you are allowed to break them. Professionals have earned the right to break the rules, but this fest isn't just for professionals.

Again, I just wish I knew more of the rules of script writing before I started and I hope those rules will be posted ahead of time in the future. I was one of those who unknowingly used "we see" and apparently pissed off the dictator http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon12.gif.... but all I had to go by at the time was the Hollywood scripts I had available to me and they used "we see" and "cut to" all over the place so I thought that was standard. But I've definitely learned a lot already so... if there is a next fest, I will most likely take part. :)

Thanks to everyone who gave me positive feedback and constructive criticism!:dankk2:

[preston]

i thought this was the SCIENCE FICTION scriptfest.

where does it say our scripts had to be "designed around "the twilight zone" which is known for being the antithesis to big budget complacency." ?

there's nothing in the rules that said we had to make our scripts "low budget", and in a SCI-FI festival, it's kind of a given that there will be fantastical stories that would probably be expensive to bring to the screen, if one were so inclined.

am i wrong?

please stop bringing this up.

[alex whitmer]

Hey JamieJay,

First, I hope you do run with the next fest. Enjoyed your work a lot.

Not knowing all the guidelines or 'rules' is small potatoes compared to telling a good story. You learn as you go, apply what works for you, and you discard the rest. No two writers will use the same fomula, thankfully.

My last word on we -

Yes, professional writers and amateur writers use it alike (don't get me started on what defines pro, and what defines amatuer) But think of it like this ...

You are reading a screenplay, and you can picture everything in your mind - the set, the character, the ambiance. You are using your own life experience to interpret and analyze all the information, and no two readers will see the exact same thing. Then, along comes We and redirects your focus, telling you to look at something - just like a tour guide - and in my humble and often wrong opinion, it just yanks a reader out of their happy place.

In my other humble opinion, the one that is usually correct, the script Legends of Magolia is a perfect example of the reader being allowed to wander through this fantastical world tour guide free. And nobody handing me a camera and telling me to stand over here or there. It's all done through movement and suggestion. I would go so far as to say reading this script was like a dance. It was that enjoyable.

Write a good story, then let your reader enjoy it on their own terms.

Anyways, as Forest would say 'that's all I have to say about that'.

See you next fest!!!

[jamiejay]

After reading more scripts, I agree with "we see" as being a bit annoying and completely unnecessary. As a writer of short stories and poetry attempting to write a first script, I think I was trying to make it sound more like a script by adding camera directions, "we see", "cut to", scene numbers, etc. I sincerely didn't know any better. But I would definitely prefer to NOT use these devices at all.

Like you, I believe good writing allows the reader to visualize and experience the story in as few words as possible. I don't like over-description and I'm learning to dislike over-direction as well.

I just wish I knew what I knew now before I entered the fest. I feel those types of errors could have been easily avoided if I had some rules to go by. Then, those who are familiar with script writing wouldn't have had to be distracted by my glaring mistakes and, thus, could have enjoyed my story more.

:violin:http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I am glad I entered and I won't repeat those mistakes again.

[jamiejay]

My only consideration for the guidelines is something that we all must work and adhere to, so that the start point is even for all. And, that helps people who enter follow a format that is fairly standard, the point of this is to grow...


I agree completely. Well said :)

[arroway]

where does it say our scripts had to be "designed around "the twilight zone" which is known for being the antithesis to big budget complacency." ?

it didn't say you HAD TO anywhere. budget awareness was merely my humble suggestion in a number of critiques for future rewrites.

but here is where it was mentioned:


DVXUSER.COM PRESENTS SCRIPTFEST DEUX - II

RULES

Genre: Science fiction (This is broad, you can encompass fantasy or more twilight zone elements.)

and preston, here's a free tip for future fests (that you can internalize or ignore as you see fit): it's great to get the people who critique your work to explain or clarify something...but it's very tacky to argue with them. even if they're talking out of their ass and they write their scripts in the past tense, try to appreciate the fact that they took the time to give you their thoughts however hypothetically misguided those thoughts end up being.

you're under no obligation to take their word as law so just use what you want and ignore the rest.

also, set aside a moment to read isaac's signature quote. it's a good one.

[jamiejay]

i agree with preston. budget has nothing to do with a script as i see it. i understand why someone who plans to film their script would want to limit budget, but, if we are just writing to improve our script writing abilities and to come up with a good story, i see no reason why budget should be an issue at all.

and it said twilight zone as an example of the type of story one might use in a sci-fi script fest, but you referenced it as a reason why a low budget should be a requirement. i believe that's what he was trying to say.

everyone has a right to their opinions, but i see why someone would take offense to you implying this was a rule in some way when it was not. and to say "big budget complacency" is to suggest that anyone who included anything that might be expensive (i.e. a helicopter or spaceship) was just being lazy... also could make people pretty defensive.

try to appreciate that writers put a lot of thought and effort into their scripts and it would be unfair to judge their works based on rules that never existed. i hope someone would not give me a lower rating because i did not meet some unspecified criteria in their mind.

the quote is a good one... and maybe i'm wrong, but i happen to disagree that budget is one of the limitations we need. especially since most effects can be done digitally.

not trying to be argumentative... but, well... yeah i am. but i'm not trying to be rude. and it seems to me from your earlier posts on this thread that you would be able to appreciate a good argument. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon12.gif

[arroway]

the half dozen ratings i had the chance to give (didn't realize voting was ending in the AM) were based solely on story.

and again, to reiterate for the millionth time, "budget awareness" was simply a suggestion for future rewrites. if anyone finds that offensive they need thicker skin.


especially since most effects can be done digitally.

if you say so...

i'll appreciate a good argument when i see one.

[Isaac_Brody]

Ian calm down... Telling people they need "thicker skin" is unnecessary. Not sure why you're getting worked up but chill out here and in the other threads as well.

[arroway]

that was my last comment on format i assure you. :laugh:

[conlanforever]

Again, I just wish I knew more of the rules of script writing before I started and I hope those rules will be posted ahead of time in the future. I was one of those who unknowingly used "we see" and apparently pissed off the dictator http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon12.gif.... but all I had to go by at the time was the Hollywood scripts I had available to me and they used "we see" and "cut to" all over the place so I thought that was standard. But I've definitely learned a lot already so... if there is a next fest, I will most likely take part. :)


Jj you're script really showed a lot of potential and definitely showcased your writing ability. I had a variety of format and writing foibles in my first scriptfest (including a two page/post from Alex that was very helpful), but everyone's critiques really helped me.

I certainly hope you'll enter the next scriptfest, I'm definitely looking forward to reading your next script. :thumbsup:

Now on the subject of BUDGET. I think a writer just writes what comes to him or her, especially for a contest. But now that I've said that...I sure as heck hope that the next idea that comes to me is something on a smaller scale or I'll never get anything produced :Drogar-Thinking(DBG

Though I do see the difference in the writing process if you know you're going to produce the script that you're writing.

[jamiejay]

I really appreciate the kind words because I was feeling a little disheartened. I was glad for the feedback and suggestions, but I was beginning to feel maybe this wasn't for me.

And I certainly agree with you that, if I were going to write to try to get something produced, I would be sure to keep a budget in mind.

Congratulations on making the top... you definitely deserved it! :)

[Noel Evans]

Well budget consideration is a personal choice Id say. Personally I do like to consider it, as I think well Im going to all this trouble to write something, it may as well be something I am capable of shooting if I so desire. But it certainly isnt really relevant from a script writing stand point. I think it depends from which side of the fence you come from; purely writing or production side.

[alex whitmer]

Unless ...

... you write a short script for a filmmaker that has about $20.00, a few great locations and a few great actors. Then you really need to write with a budget in mind.

You chat with the filmmaker, find out what she or he has avail as far as FX go, and any other connections, like maybe mom is a helicopter pilot, then you write it. In truth, with a good crew and a director with creative problem solving skills, you can make a great film on pocket change.

Another option is writing a short on spec. To make it marketable, fx and costs need to be minimal, and be prepared to trim it down if you get a bite.

If your are writing purely for the creative process, and just want to run with it, forget costs.

Heck, if the story is really good, who knows, somebody with some extra cash just might go for it so they can showcase their own filmmaking skills, and add it to a reel meant to impress - and attract investors.

aw