Widescreen, best shooting mode and Vegas settings?

[Mr-Joe]

Hi,

I'm working on a documentary project, I'm using the DVX100a, and editing with Vegas 6.

I'd like for the film on dvd to appear in a widescreen image the same way on anyones tv, no matter if they have a widescreen tv or regular 4:3 tv, I don't want the image to be widescreen with black bars, then get squished when watched on a widescreen tv.

Now from what I understand when I film in letterbox mode the footage has permanent black bars on it so I think that when this is watched on a widescreen tv it would be squished...

When I film in 4:3, I don't have the option in vegas to start a project as 4:3, it just asks me what width hight I want to start with, and I think the standard is 720x480, which I don't think is 4:3, If I start the project as 640x480 then when I import the footage it comes with black bars on the side of the image. now I tried using 720x480 and added an image layer above the video layer on the timeline that had black bars, but when I export this clip, it seems like it becomes the same thing as shooting letterbox mode with permanent black bars.

If I were to shoot in sqeeze, (I never tested this) Would I have problems with vignetting because I am using SG pro adapter?

I basically want to know, what mode to shoot in, 4:3, letterbox, or squeeze, and then what project settings/ import settings/size to use in vegas, to get my film to appear in a widescreen way on any tv. and still maintain the best possible quality.

Thanks,
Joe.

[logan3000]

Hey Mr. Joe, I can't answer the Vegas portion of your question, but I've just finished some testing of my own for the same aspect ratio conditions as they apply to the DVX's framing. I shot squeeze as well as 4:3 with the final result to be an "anamorphic" (incorrect term used constantly for a DVD authored to adjust it's size to maintain a 16:9 or other widescreen format regardless of the viewing monitor's aspect ratio...out of breathe) dvd. After trying several methods I posted my own question here and got this response from Smettli.

"I usually shoot in 4:3(my first version dvx-100 doesn't have the squeeze option) and then I import it into a 4:3 project in premiere where I edit. And when I'm done I export it as a dv-avi file, open a new widescreen anamorphic project in premiere and import my 4:3 clip. I then place the clip down on the timeline and at the go into the "motion" menu for the clip and type in "134" into the "scale" box and then the image will fill up the anamorphic field in teh monitor and automaticly crop away top and bottom(just scale it up to the sides of the frame doesn't have black lines). It is also recomended to add titles and such in the anamorphic project and not in the 4:3 project, so you have better quality titles and not stretched ones. And then you just output the file as widescreen anamorphic, and that file is ready to be printed out on a dvd as 16:9 video
Of course, you could always just start with an anamorphic project and import the raw material in there and start edit, but then the files is un-rendered. I rather just render the final cut to save time."

This was one of the methods I had tried before posting my question and I agree with Smettli that it is probably the best method, all things considered. I compared the "blown up" footage to some footage shot using squeeze on my HD tv through my uprezzing DVD player and the difference was negligible. Granted this is my opinion on my equipment, but I feel pretty confident that it's accurate. Remember that there is resolution lost in the squeeze mode to begin with.

The upside to this method is the freedom to reframe shots vertically, however you have to be mindful of the portion of the footage that will be cropped when it is resized. The downside is the additional steps and rendering, but if you feel that what you're filming is worth the time and effort to do it in the first place, then what is a little more work to get it how you want it. Hope this helped.

[Mr-Joe]

Thanks Logan, I think I read that thread you posted, but I don't think it works that way with Vegas, and also I would prefer to edit the footage in the size it will be as a final.

I think that shooting squeeze then starting a widescreen project in vegas might work, I will have to try that, but why do you loose quality when you shoot in squeeze?

[Paladin]

You will lose quality when using either method but, as logan300 stated, the difference is negligible. I shoot everything in Squeeze mode. However, when shooting in Squeeze mode, ALWAYS set the Vertical Detail Frequency in your Scene File Menu to THIN. This helps to compensate a little for the loss in resolution.

[Mr-Joe]

Thanks for the tip paladin,

I'm wondering is there any way to shoot in 4:3 then when I edit in Vegas, crop it to 16:9 so that it does not render out in Mpeg-2 form with the black bars, so that when it goes onto a dvd, the black bars are formated automatically depending on the size of the viewers screen?

Also I am wondering, if I shoot in letterbox mode, is the picture loose any resolution or is the full resolution within the black bars, and if I shoot letterbox mode can I somehow remove those black bars to render it as the 16:9 size with no bars in mpeg-2 so that it does the same thing I just mentioned with shooting 4:3 and cropping?

[David Jimerson]

You absolutely DO have the option to start in a widescreen project in Vegas 6; when it opens, press alt+Enter, choose a widescreen template, and then check the box which says "start all new projects with these settings." Then, every new project will open as widescreen.

To crop 4:3 material, work in a Widescreen project, then go into the pan/crop tool and choose the 16:9 (widescreen) preset. Then, when going to DVD, export using a widescreen template under MPEG-2 -- one of the DVD Architect templates if you're using DVD Architect.

Shooting in letterbox mode is exactly the same as shooting in 4:3, except that the camera paints over the top and bottom of the frame with black pixels. There is not much advantage to it and several drawbacks.

Shoot in Squeeze and do everything in Widescreen.

[Mr-Joe]

Thanks very much David, and Thanks to the moderator who moved this to the proper section.

David, So you are saying the best way is to just shoot in squeeze and do all settings in widescreen?


Another question... I opened a project with a 4:3 clip in it, I changed the properties to a NTSC 24p DV Widescreen, 720x480...

My question is... is 720x480 16x9?? it doesn't look like it is a widescreen size. Do I change this Width x Hight size, or leave it like that and when I render it it magically comes out as a widescreen size? ?

Also which is the proper frame rate to use, the IVTC 23.976 or just 24?

[Everts]

Hi mr Joe .
I dont work with vegas but I hope this may help .
720x 480 is the frame size
16:9 is wide and 4:3 is normal.These are aspect ratios
If it doesnt look wide its probably 4:3

[Mr-Joe]

Thanks Everts, I understand the frame size... but isn't the frame size and the aspect ratios the same thing? shouldn't 16:9 be something like 720x380 or something like that?

I changed the project settings to 16:9 widescreen.... but for some reason it is still a 740x480 project... which does not look widescreen... so basically the preset doesn't change the resoultion size.... they don't change what i'm seeing in my video preview to widescreen.. it's still 740x480 ...

Now I took a 4:3 clip... put it in a widescreen project timeline.. cropped it with the preset for 16x9 and then rendered it as a mpeg-2 dvd architect widescreen setting, then opened it in dvd architect and there is a tiny bit of black bars on the SIDES of the image now...
Do I have to manually change the width and hight of my project to get it to be the right widescreen aspect ratio and also set that width and hight when I render my clip?

[Mr-Joe]

Ok I think I figured some things out...

I opened a project, and set it to 720x404 which is approximately 16:9 and I kept the Pixel aspect ratio at 1.0(square) then cropped it with the 16:9 preset, which makes the image fill the project.
and if I want 2.40:1 ratio I open a project with settings of 720x300 which = 2.40:1 and crop it to 720x271 and that fills the image, and then I save that as a preset... Then when I render the clip I change the resolution size to which ever ratio I want to use and keep the pixel aspect ratio at 1...

That seems to work, I didn't make a dvd but when I opened it up in dvd architect it worked out right.

Ok I noticed, that the dvx doesn't seem to shoot in 4:3... which is actually close to 640x480... the dvx shoots in 720x480 which actually equals 1.5:1 ratio....

So I'm guessing (because it seems to work) what is best to do... is shoot in 4:3 mode (720x480) .. then create a project setting with 720 x *(which ever number 720 divided by the aspect ratio I want to shoot as equals)* for example 720/2.4 = 300... so if I want to have a 2.4 aspect ratio I make project settings 720x300... then crop the image, loosing some of the top and bottom of the image...


Now the same thing works if I keep 480 and then multiply that by the aspect ratio I want to shoot... so if i want to shoot 16x9 the aspect ratio is 1.78 I multiply that by 480 and i get 854 (approximately) then I crop that and the image fills the screen...... but do I have a higher resolution now..... is this what is called *up-res-ing*?

Which is better to do... so for 2.40:1 the 720x300 ... or 1152x480 ?? Now if I try rendering the 1152x480 footage... it won't let me,... unless I render it as 720x300.... but if the project is 1152x480 and I render it as 720x300 will I have a better quality footage? or is there a way to render it as 1152x480 and will that have a better quality footage?

[strangways]

Ok I noticed, that the dvx doesn't seem to shoot in 4:3... which is actually close to 640x480... the dvx shoots in 720x480 which actually equals 1.5:1 ratio....


It's not shooting 1.5:1
640x480 and 720x480 are both 4:3.
Wait... what?

Your computer uses square pixels, and so it does things in 640x480 or multiples thereof. This is called the "pixel aspect ratio" (of the individual pixels, not your overall image) and is 1:1

NTSC video, however, uses pixels that are taller than they are wide. IIRC, they are 0.89:1. The NTSC video standard is 720x480.

When you display square pixels on a computer, 640x480 is 4:3.
When you display skinny NTSC pixels on a TV, 720x480 is 4:3.
720 multiplied by 0.89 is 640.8 Is that making sense?

The great thing about Vegas is that it doesn't matter. Vegas is making the pixels square for display on your computer, so you see a perfect 4:3 image while editing, and nothing is distorted.
If you shoot squeeze, you are still recording 720x480 pixels to tape, as the widescreen image is squeezed down to that. Vegas takes care of unsqueezing it and then making the pixels square for display.
Your source footage is still 720x480 on your hard drive, and your DVD output is still 720x480.

[strangways]

Also which is the proper frame rate to use, the IVTC 23.976 or just 24?

IVTC 23.976 is the proper one to use.

Film runs at exactly 24 frames per second. NTSC video, however, is all screwed up and everything is off by 0.1%. Your DVX records at 23.976, and that's what a DVD will be, and what the TV will display.

When color TV was introduced, there was some technical thing about still supporting B&W, so rather than being 30 frames per second (or 60 fields per second if you count the interlacing) it actually became 29.97 frames per second (or 59.94 fields per second). Following that, 24 fps on video actually has to be 23.976

Most people (and camera companies and editing software programmers) like to keep things short, so the rates always get rounded off. When someone is talking about video and says "twenty-four frames per second" they almost always mean "twenty-four point nine seven six frames per second"
Further, some software calls it 23.98. The video is still precisely 23.976, they've just rounded off a digit.

That's the convoluted history. In conclusion, let me re-iterate: IVTC 23.976 is the proper one to use.

[David Jimerson]

Joe, make sure you have "Simulate Device Aspect Ratio" checked in your Preview options. (Right-click on the preview window.)

The correct frame size for NTSC DV is 720x480, whether 4:3 (pixel aspect ratio .9091) or 16:9 (pixel aspect ratio 1.21). Don't change it; the project templates are right.

[Mr-Joe]

Thank you Strangeways and David,

so If I shoot in 4:3, and when I edit if I want 16x9 , I want to keep the aspect ratio at the ntsc widescreen setting? and leave the resolution at 720x480 and then click simulate aspect ratio?...

When I kept the aspect ratio at square and did like I said with resizing the width height it seems to work and looked alright, is there some kind of downside to doing that?

What if I want to have it 2:40 ultra widescreen, what do I keep the aspect ratio at? and the Resolution at?

[David Jimerson]

You have two choices, 4:3 and 16:9. If you want 2.40, work in a 16:9 project and crop the footage. You'll get black bars on the top and bottom.

[strangways]

As I understand it, Simulate Device Aspect Ratio is for square pixel/0.89 NTSC pixel display.

Keep the properties of your footage in whatever aspect you shot it in, and change your project aspect ratio to change the look of what you're outputting.