24p on Vegas Movie Studio 8

[Paladin]

Does Vegas Movie Studio 8 edit on 24p and 24pA timelines or is it only 29.97 like Premiere Elements?

[David Jimerson]

You can create a 23.976 timeline manually, but it doesn't remove pulldown. You'd have to capture and do that in another application in order to edit as native 24p. And you can't export as 24p.

The least expensive solution for full-bore, proper 24p editing is the full version of Vegas.

[Paladin]

Thanks, Dave.

[David W. Richardson]

You can create a 23.976 timeline manually, but it doesn't remove pulldown. You'd have to capture and do that in another application in order to edit as native 24p. And you can't export as 24p.

The least expensive solution for full-bore, proper 24p editing is the full version of Vegas.

What other application can be used to capture in 24p???

[David Jimerson]

Other NLEs, After Effects, etc.. (Though they don't necessarily "capture in" 24p; you'd remove pulldown and export.)

As I said, the least money will be in going with the full version of Vegas.

[David W. Richardson]

I discovered an application called DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm). It converts .AVI's captured at 29.97, removing the pulldown and making them 23.976. It will also convert the other direction, I believe. Works on all video, shot with any kind of camera -- including HDV. Claims not to impact resolution. Costs only $145.

Has anyone tried this software? I'm playing with the demo now, and it seems to do what it says it will. Anyone got more experience?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>And you can't export as 24p.

Yes you can. You simply export as such.

[David Jimerson]

I discovered an application called DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm). It converts .AVI's captured at 29.97, removing the pulldown and making them 23.976. It will also convert the other direction, I believe. Works on all video, shot with any kind of camera -- including HDV. Claims not to impact resolution. Costs only $145.

Has anyone tried this software? I'm playing with the demo now, and it seems to do what it says it will. Anyone got more experience?

It comes with Raylight, so if you're going to put out the cash, might as well future-proof. But it's a good choice.

Of course, if you're putting out the cash, you should probably look at going the extra step and getting Vegas for proper support.

[David W. Richardson]

>And you can't export as 24p.

Yes you can. You simply export as such.

I haven't had any luck doing this. I've tried doing a 'Render as...'

Save As Type = "Video For Windows (.avi)"

Template = "NTSC DV"

Click the "Custom" button, go to the "Video" tab, change the Frame Rate to "23.976 (inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown". (The only other options there are "29.970 NTSC" and "23.976 (inserting 2-3 pulldown)").

When I click OK, I get a msg that says, "The custom template you selected is not valid with the current project settings."

So how do I 'export' as 24p???

[David W. Richardson]

It comes with Raylight, so if you're going to put out the cash, might as well future-proof. But it's a good choice.

Of course, if you're putting out the cash, you should probably look at going the extra step and getting Vegas for proper support.

There's a lot of cash between $145 for DVFilm Maker and $550 for Vegas. Just can't make that leap right now.

[MikeGunter]

This is a full version of Vegas Pro 8 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/536041-REG/Sony_VP8Q_Vegas_Pro_8_Video.html) without DVD Architect for $129 at B&H.

If you have a DVD authoring program, you're set.

[David W. Richardson]

Good to know, but I'd still like to know how to export as 24p from Vegas Studio Platinum 8.0. Anybody?

The only way I've found so far is to export uncompressed -- but doing so turns a 15 second clip into a 500 MB file -- half a gig for 15 seconds is too much.

Advice?

[David Jimerson]

I don't know of a way to do it, but I haven't tried it lately -- have you tried under MPEG-2? I seem to recall that it can't be done that way, either, but it's been a while.

[David W. Richardson]

Just checked. Can't do it under MPEG-2 or MP4.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I honestly don't understand what you guys are talking about. I have both Platinum 8 and 9 installed, and BOTH can export in 24p in WMV. The MP4/mpeg2 doesn't let you customize, that's why you can't (not because the app doesn't let you if the custom button was available). As for the NTSC DV 24p, it doesn't let you just because the format doesn't do true 24p without pulldown, not because again, your Platinum doesn't let you. Try WMV for Platinum 8, or WMV/MP4 for Platinum 9, and export in 24p, and you will see, that it WILL let you export in 23.976 fps after you manually enter the number. AVI also lets you do that, as long as the codec selected supports 24p (e.g. Cineform would do it).

So Platinum DOES let you import, edit AND export in 24p (for the formats that the "custom" button is available, or when the format allows for 24p). In fact, it's the only consumer editor that does. It is the main reason why I suggest Platinum 9 to my consumer HV20 readers instead of another editor or even the Pro version.

As for 24p DVDs, you can not do it with DVD Architect Studio, it will add pulldown back. That's true. But Platinum does let you deal with 24p the proper way.

[David W. Richardson]

I haven't tried exporting as WMV. I was trying to export something that could then be burned as a DVD. Can that be done with a WMV file?

I did try it as an AVI with the Cineform codec, and it looked awful. Grainy and pixelated.

Platinum does allow you to import a 24p file -- but as far as I can tell (at least with Movie Studio Platinum 8.0), it doesn't let you capture in 24p. That's the problem I'm having.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

> I did try it as an AVI with the Cineform codec, and it looked awful. Grainy and pixelated.

Cineform is a visually lossless codec, so I have trouble with what you are insinuating.

> it doesn't let you capture in 24p.

The DV capture in Platinum is the same as in Pro. If Platinum doesn't do it, neither does Pro.

> I was trying to export something that could then be burned as a DVD.

Not with DVD Architect Studio. That app doesn't burn 24p DVDs, it adds pulldown back.

> Can that be done with a WMV file?

It can be done with anything that lets you change the frame rate manually to 24p.

If all you want to do is burn DVDs, then it's an easy workflow: you capture in 60i, you edit in 60i, you export in 60i, and you burn in 60i. You never remove pulldown, because if DVD/TV is your only output, then you let these devices to remove pulldown on the fly. It's the same with the Canon HV20/30. You only remove pulldown if your output is not a DVD player or the tape.

[David W. Richardson]

>
If all you want to do is burn DVDs, then it's an easy workflow: you capture in 60i, you edit in 60i, you export in 60i, and you burn in 60i. You never remove pulldown, because if DVD/TV is your only output, then you let these devices to remove pulldown on the fly. It's the same with the Canon HV20/30. You only remove pulldown if your output is not a DVD player or the tape.

Okay, what do I do when I need to create a 24p master for transfer to film?

[David W. Richardson]

> I did try it as an AVI with the Cineform codec, and it looked awful. Grainy and pixelated.

Cineform is a visually lossless codec, so I have trouble with what you are insinuating.



I'm only insinuating that the render I did using Cineform looked awful.



> it doesn't let you capture in 24p.

The DV capture in Platinum is the same as in Pro. If Platinum doesn't do it, neither does Pro.


Fair enough. But I watched Jimerson's tutorial on 24p in Vegas. He was using an older version (6.0, I think?) While the capture came in as 30fps, he was (a) able to change his project's template to an NTSC 24p template (which Movie Studio Platinum Version 8.0 doesn't appear to have), and (b) able to change a setting that appears to change the properties of his captured clip so it was 23.976fps (Movie Studio Platinum 8.0 does not have that option.)

The only way I have been able to get a clip's properties to show 23.976 frame rate is by using an external conversion software on the clip before bringing it into Movie Studio Platinum 8.0. The only way I've been able to get a 23.976fps template is by modifying the standard NTSC DV template.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Could you please capture 3 seconds of this 24p camera, and upload somewhere the footage so I can have a look? Which camera is exactly this?

[David W. Richardson]

Could you please capture 3 seconds of this 24p camera, and upload somewhere the footage so I can have a look? Which camera is exactly this?

I am not at my home, so I can't do this until tomorrow.

Footage was shot with the Panasonic DVX100a, but capture deck is a consumer-level Panasonic miniDV camcorder.

[David W. Richardson]

I'll try to get a short clip of the render with Cineform for you to see as well.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

> Footage was shot with the Panasonic DVX100a, but capture deck is a consumer-level Panasonic miniDV camcorder.

This might be part of your problem. Consumer camcorders don't support 24p, so it's possible that they spit out 60i.

[David W. Richardson]

> Footage was shot with the Panasonic DVX100a, but capture deck is a consumer-level Panasonic miniDV camcorder.

This might be part of your problem. Consumer camcorders don't support 24p, so it's possible that they spit out 60i.

Everything I've ever read here or learned elsewhere indicates that it's okay to capture using a consumer camcorder -- that the data that makes it 24p, along with all other data from the camera involving exposure settings and the like, is all digital and will, indeed, remain intact. If that's not the case, I would be very surprised.

[David Jimerson]

OK, there is a LOT of confusion in this thread.

You can use a consumer camcorder to capture footage shot with the DVX100 in 24p; the pulldown flags will still be transferred and the full version of Vegas will be able to remove the pulldown.

No version of Vegas captures "in 24p" -- refer to my 24p DV tutorial video sticky at the top the Vegas forum -- it's all captured as 60i and then Vegas removes the pulldown on a 24p timeline.

Vegas Movie Studio, any version, can't do the pulldown removal. Therefore, if you want 24p output of any kind, you need to remove the pulldown with another program. As mentioned above, DVFilm Maker would be fine for this.

You can then create a 24p timeline -- manually -- in Vegas Movie Studio, but then you can't export as 24p in anything other than (apparently) Windows Media -- and Windows Media is not appropriate for either making a quality DVD or transferring to film.

If you want to make a 24p DVD or transfer to film, you will need the full version of Vegas. Using Vegas Movie Studio will simply not be good enough.

(And consider that transfer to film is typically $350/minute.)

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>Vegas Movie Studio, any version, can't do the pulldown removal.

Vegas Platinum 9 supports pulldown removal from the Sony HDV 24pA cameras. It's written in its release notes. Not sure about other kinds of pulldown removals.

[David Jimerson]

Sony cameras don't actually use 24pA; there's a 24A mode, but it's not the same thing at all.

In any case, if that's an improvement in VMS 9, then great. But it still won't remove pulldown from 24p DV from the DVX; that's a separate thing done a different way.

[David W. Richardson]

OK, there is a LOT of confusion in this thread.

You can use a consumer camcorder to capture footage shot with the DVX100 in 24p; the pulldown flags will still be transferred and the full version of Vegas will be able to remove the pulldown.

No version of Vegas captures "in 24p" -- refer to my 24p DV tutorial video sticky at the top the Vegas forum -- it's all captured as 60i and then Vegas removes the pulldown on a 24p timeline.

Vegas Movie Studio, any version, can't do the pulldown removal. Therefore, if you want 24p output of any kind, you need to remove the pulldown with another program. As mentioned above, DVFilm Maker would be fine for this.

You can then create a 24p timeline -- manually -- in Vegas Movie Studio, but then you can't export as 24p in anything other than (apparently) Windows Media -- and Windows Media is not appropriate for either making a quality DVD or transferring to film.

If you want to make a 24p DVD or transfer to film, you will need the full version of Vegas. Using Vegas Movie Studio will simply not be good enough.

(And consider that transfer to film is typically $350/minute.)

Got the $129 version of Vegas Pro 8.0a and installed it. Problem solved!

Thanks!