Starting from Scratch: NLE Decision

[Guest]

I know this is an old debate topic, but I'm hoping to get some input from those who have seen and/or used SEVERAL different NLE's. I have a DVX-100 and will be 24pa shooting and editing a documentary for broadcast purposes. I'll be buying a computer and nle for this sole purpose. I'm trying to decide between Premiere PRO- with a PC, Vegas with a PC or FCP with a MAC.
Any input from those who have used different NLE's would be greatly appreciated.

[David Jimerson]

Dude. Come on. Really. You know it's an "old debate topic," so why stir it up? Do a search. There's plenty, plenty, plenty on this, especially in the individual NLE threads.

At least register if you're going to ask a question like that.

[disjecta]

Here's the simple answer, they are all good and will allow you to accomplish whatever it is you need.

I work with Premiere Pro 1.5 but have also worked with Vegas and Avid Xpress Pro and it's just a case of getting used to the different interfaces....functionally, they are simliar.

You need to ask yourself what it is you want to do, edit-wise. I'd recommend you download trial versions of these NLEs, see which one is most intuitive and then go with that and don't look back.

[glassblowerscat]

Unless they've drastically updated Premiere since I used it (6.0), I'd stick with Vegas, FCP, or Avid. Just more there.

[disjecta]

Unless they've drastically updated Premiere since I used it (6.0)

They have, it's been rewritten from the ground up.

[Fred_Plowman]

Broderbund ;D

[moe_snodgrass]

Yes, and strangley Adobe didn't port the new build for Macintosh, just Windows, so Premiere seems to be dying or dead for Mac at v6.5.

[glassblowerscat]

Yes, and strangley Adobe didn't port the new build for Macintosh, just Windows, so Premiere seems to be dying or dead for Mac at v6.5.

Well, I'm glad they rewrote for our sad PC friends ;), but if you're a Mac user I don't know why you wouldn't be using FCP or FCExpress anyway. I think Adobe realized that, just as all the rest of us should.

[J.R. Hudson]

Just use Vegas and ditto what David said.

[Woodson]

I'm starting my editing.... I'm starting to have fun with Vegas!

I vote Vegas, but that's my choice.

[TC]

I'm on PPro 1.5 and it serves me well. I had to edit a movie with Final Cut for a project I was doing for someone else, at first I didn't like it, but then I warmed up to it. Bottom line is they'll all basically do what you need done, it's just how you choose to get there.

[J_Barnes]

Usually people who've tried and extensively used various editing programs have a favorite that is based on very subjective and personal reasons. *Thus, it has very little application to how YOU will use and interact with the software and hardware.

I've used Avid, FCP, FCE, Vegas and Premiere. *For me, the apple solutions match my personal subjective needs most closely, probably because they're so obviously based on the Avid MC interface I learned on. *As I'm not permitted a Mac at my current assignment, I'm editing on Vegas which is very different from the Avid MC interface I learned on...thus, it's far far from my personal subjective needs. *However, it's still paying the bills and it's still getting the job done because I've adapted to the different working methods.

I think the truth about editing is that you learn to work with a process, but it's the work that you do with that process that you grow to love, not the methods that got you there. *It's not so much that we become loyal to an editing software out of choice, we become dependent upon the results we get with that software, and that leads us to adopt whatever specific platform we utilize as our standard. *

Chances are that you already know which one you want to use, you're just looking for someone to validate your choice. *Make it already and start editing.

[Neil Rowe]

..id tell you to go with some PC based product because your whole shebang of buying an NLE will be cheaper then.. and upgrades and such will also be cheaper. i personally use PPRO 1.5 , but agree that ANY NLE is equally suited to get the job done so just pick one that matches your style and workflow the best.. download trial versions and make an informed decision.

[disjecta]

Very wise words J_Barnes.

[natob2]

I actually think you can get the most bang for your buck with a G5 and Final Cut Pro.

My past experience with PCs is the need for add-on cards and such to get the same performance from a Mac right off the box.

I predict we are going to see Final Cut overpower AVID dominance in creative editorial in about 2-3 years.

[Taylor Moore]

Like J_Barnes I have edited on a variety of platforms and systems including cutting 35 on a flatbed. I started on a NLE with Dvision(RIP).
I have decided to bury my PC for editing and only use it for 3D, I recently bought a 1.5 gig powerbook and love working with FCP and AE...all portably. The system is very stable. I go from home to clients...and just plug into a set of speaker and a larger monitor.

FCP is slowly maturing and I believe will eventually dominate the AVID domain.

I think Apple has some advantages in that they have a unified hardware platform and this lends itself to the stability and ongoing dev of FCP.

Also FCP comes with a wack of additional software...Livetype, Soundtrack, Compressor etc. All of these products work very well together now with FCP 4.5...these products will also mature into strong apps.

But...it really comes down to the interface and what you are comfortable with. Don't let money be the barrier. It's really not the tools...its the brain driving the tools.

My 2 cents.

[David Jimerson]

My past experience with PCs is the need for add-on cards and such to get the same performance from a Mac right off the box.
*

Like what? The need for hardware-based capture and render cards has been been passed by with the heavy-duty CPUs now available. Most NLEs don't even utilize them anymore.

[moe_snodgrass]

Yucatan

Also consider that FCP is optimized for dual processor which means true multitasking. The G5 towers are all dual processor starting at $1999. Realistically, you'd want to spend between $2400 (more RAM) to $3500 (more everything). Not sure if any other NLE's are optimized for duals, maybe Avid.

[disjecta]

Premiere Pro is also optimized for dual processors.

[J_Barnes]

The real question is whose truck is better and whose genitals are larger.

[disjecta]

Now you have discredited yourself. I had so much respect for your previous post :D

[J_Barnes]

Sorry, I see that as the only way we can finally decide who wins between Mac and PC. Either that or we must wrestle in Jello, mud, or creamed corn.

Personally, I don't care much for jello.

[Neil Rowe]

..i say we have a pokemon showdown!!

I CHOOSE YOU PIKACHU!

[disjecta]

YEAH BABY!!!

[Neil Rowe]

walla walla BING BIIIING!!

disjecta!! what happend to the duck! ??? he was my soul mate. ...er i mean, he was cute.
it will take time to warm up to this new woodland creature.. alas little rodent.. youve got awfully little webbed shaped shoes to fill. :)

[disjecta]

He's an otter in the lake actually. The "goose", excuse me, is taking a little hiatus (he's actually taking acting classes for my next film) but he'll be back later. The tagline is an homage to this board * :D

[J_Barnes]

Don't otters have webbed feet too?

[David Jimerson]

Vegas is optimized for dual processors. So is Liquid Edition.

You can make fair and valid arguments for the superiority of a G5/FCP system. But “most cost-effective” isn’t one of them. You can argue that it’s WORTH the extra money, but quite a few PC-based solutions do the same for (much) less.

[Collink]

Everyone here had time to post while they were waiting for their render. Since I use Liquid Edition, it was rendering in the background, and I just kept on editing instead of jumping in on this thread earlier. I know Liquid 5.5 doesn't support native 24p (YET) and I still don't know about v6, so that strikes Pinnacle off your list since you need 24PA (for the time being) But don't forget to check Liquid out when considering an NLE platform. I used to use FCP on a G4 but I switched to PC's about 2 years ago when Edition first came out. Lots of great features many of the aforementioned apps don't have. Commence with the flaming! Pinnacle rarely gets much respect. But some of my friends (who are still FCP challenged) have seen my work and they say, "woah how'd you do that?", or "that must've taken a while" and when I say "Liquid Edition!", they get all huffy and complainy that Pinnacle is just a consumer grade POS. Well, they were all impressed up until that point. Break those pre-concieved notions. Pinnacle has a pretty cool system.

[J_Barnes]

Actually, I'm making dubs right now. Computer's free because I'd rather procrastinate.

Seriously, what features does liquid have that others dont? (curious, not bating you)

[David Jimerson]

I’m not going to flame, but as a Liquid Edition user . . .

Pinnacle is sneering at 24p, going full-bore for the HD dollars. I saw a live demonstration of LE 6 a few weeks ago, and spoke to Pinnacle bigwigs personally. Unless there’s some massive groundswell of demand for it, forget 24p in Liquid Edition.

I have LE 5.5 and enjoy many aspects of it, not the least of which being the background rendering. But it’s useless if I want a 24p workflow and looks to stay that way, by Pinnacle’s conscious decision.

[Collink]

Some cool features of LE6:

Background rendering

Instant Save (very cool)

DVD Authoring Straight from the time line,
with or without a menu.
Great for making a test copy to give to someone for feedback / approval.

The CX Color corrector is a VERY powerful tool
Some say it's the DaVinci of DV.

Quick storyboarding on the desktop.

1000's of realtime effects

dynamic timewarp (slow-mo / fast playback) can be keyframed and changes made smoothly on the fly

Open GL acceleration

Format agnostic timeline (in v6)

Cheap upgrades

Support for HD (in v6)

[Collink]

I'm very bummed to hear you say that. Little expectation of 24p support. I'll continue to badger them. Maybe all the new XL-2 users will help out.

[David Jimerson]

It would be nice to think that, but the OVERWHELMING impression I get is that they think 24p is just a fad and that everyone will abandon it for HDV or HD.

Maybe, if 24p becomes a standard offering in HD or HDV cameras, they’ll do something about it, but I’m not holding my breath. I’m not wasting my money on the Version 6 upgrade, even though I do very much like the numerous advantages you point out (which I think the other NLEs should incorporate).

[J_Barnes]

See, out of the features you list, the only one that sounds novel is the direct DVD from timeline, and possably the openGL support. Everything else can accomplished in most other software packages with varying degrees of difficulty.

How's it integrate with photoshop, AE and Descreet?

[Collink]

My mistake, David and others see this link:

http://www.dilithium.com.au/edition/6/whats_new_le6.htm

Liquid Edition v6 DOES support 24p on the timeline.
The sneering at 24p has become a grin.

I'm really NOT bashing other NLE's I know Premier Pro users that are so used to the PP interface that LE's interface seems so weird and alien they could never get used to it. And they have too much work to do to give themselves enough time to get used to the interface. Everybody uses what works for them.

Edition is very stable, more so than FCP was for me when I used it. But all computers have hiccups occasionally. Instant Save has on a few occasions totally saved my a$$.
Example: The system locks, goes nowhere, you CTL-ALT-DEL, close the app. restart the program and when it comes up, everything you did up to the moment of the lock-up is still there, it even resumes background rendering right where it left off, NO loss of work, NO loss of time, No lost creativity, and the restart took 45 seconds. I only wish other programs I use were so equipped. I get spoiled not having to constantly worry about saving.

I've seen some amazing things done with the CX color corrector - Sure everybody else has a color corrector too - but NOT like this.
Other editors can do what LE does most of the time, but not always as easily for someone who is used to working with it. It does streamline and speed up your workflow comparitively.

[David Jimerson]

I read that before, which is why I asked Joe Figura, lead support engineer for Pinnacle, point-blank how v6 handles 24p. He did his best to downplay it.

It only supports 24p at HD resolutions and only IF it's *already* pure 24p. It will not remove pulldown. There is no complete workflow with the DVX. You can only edit in 24p if you do quite a bit of work to the footage first, with some other program(s).

And that's as good as useless, especially when every other alternative in its class gives you that workflow natively.

J, background rendering is invaluable. I had heard that Premiere Pro incorporated a limited form of it, but I'm not aware of any other NLE which does it. The ability to edit while the program automatically renders everything in the background is a huge advantage. The constant save feature is very nice, too.

The color corrector is hands-down the best of any NLE in the class, and the OpenGL support is fantastic.

There's a lot to like about Edition, but the few things it lacks are HUGE for me.

[J_Barnes]

Vegas, while the rendering method is super convoluted, allows for network rendering. I just imagine that when perfected, it would be a more effective use of processors to have a secondary machine doing renders while continuing to edit on your primary.

Obviously, vegas doesn't have their rendering to a point where can even say that I like it, but I think they're on the right track pursuing a networked processing model over something akin to background rendering. Who knows, maybe advances in architecture will prove that background rendering on a single workstation is the way to go.

[David Jimerson]

But in Vegas, whether you're network rendering or not, you still can't edit while you render. Maybe they will incorporate it at some point (I hope they do), but right now, you can't.

[disjecta]

walla walla BING BIIIING!!

disjecta!! what happend to the duck! * ??? *he was my soul mate. *...er * * * i * mean, * * *he was cute.
it will take time to warm up to this new woodland creature.. alas little rodent.. youve got awfully little webbed shaped shoes to fill. *:)

Goose has been reinstated by popular demand :D

[Barry_Green]

Well, you can if you just open another instance of Vegas. Apparently works very well on a dual-processor system, one processor renders the background project while the other lets you edit the foreground project at full speed.

[David Jimerson]

I know, Barry -- but that's not quite the same thing, and it's especially unwieldly if you're using the full real estate of two monitors for only one instance of Vegas.