Rolling Shutter according to RED

[LuckyStudio 13]

"The only "problem" with a rolling shutter is a long read-reset time. History will not look kind on early CMOS sensors because this time was too long. We have shortened the read-reset time considerably just in the last year. Next generation sensors (Epic, Scarlet and RED ONE upgrade) will equal that of a mechanical shutter. After that, they will be faster.

Try to wipe your mind of preconceived notions... "

"My last rolling shutter comment for the night. A rolling shutter (with correct read-reset times) is a GOOD thing... not a bad thing. It accurately emulates a mechanical shutter if the wipe times are similar. We PREFER the look to a global shutter. "

Jim Jannard from RED ONE

[LuckyStudio 13]

The only problem with rolling shutter is when you use strobe lights, scenes with flashes going off ( for example, go to boston globe website and look at the video of the Celtic locker room celebration). If you shoot events, you need CCD, period.

For narrative filmmaking, in a controlled environment if you get skews and wobble or what not, your problem is much more serious than global shutter in a cmos chip.

[TheMusician]

Dxmetal, I am the guy that posted the "Another CMOS Question" thread over on Reduser that you have quoted Jim from. I knew that a global shutter was too expensive of an option for CMOS, so I thought that it would be interesting to get some brainstorming going about ways to improve current CMOS technology that would eliminate the need for a global shutter. I kind of got the impression that Jim felt that it was an attack on CMOS, which it wasn't. But I was glad to hear his input on read-reset times, and to know that these improvements will be included in EPIC, RED, and Scarlet(which I plan to buy). I love technological advances and enjoy the challenges of problem-solving. CMOS is here to stay, so let's do what we can to make it better. My 2 cents.

[LuckyStudio 13]

i totally agreed with you. We have to realize that this is just the first generation of CMOS technology being implemented in pro-sumer camera range. I am excited to see RED already taking the steps to improve this technology on their $3000 scarlet all the way up to their $40k+ epic. I hope this initiative will spark and trickle down to the other manufactures as well.

There are + and - to every technologies, CMOS or CCD, an informed user should exploit the advantages and manage the weaknesses of their tools/cameras.

[DCSensui]

Everyone who sees our show comments about how good it looks. Not a single comment related to rolling shutter issues.

The complaints about rolling shutter artifacts is like griping about a girl who has six toes.

She has a wonderful personality. Great looks. Terrific body. Yet she's getting rejected because she has six toes.

Odd analogy? It's true. A bunch of us in high school used to go ga-ga over this girl we'd see around campus. Years later someone mentioned she had six toes. Not a single one of us guys noticed. Nor would we have cared.

Here's a camera that does a great job of capturing images of excellent quality under a wide variety of circumstances. Yet there are those who keep harping about that one issue which is a non-issue to most people who end up consuming the end product. For the vast majority of viewers, rolling shutter problems are a sixth toe.

[RDykmans]

Great analogy Dean! Seems to me the the rolling shutter issue is only important to those who don't own the camera and need a reason to talk themselves out of it. My only nits with the cam are the on/off switch and the dial on the back being a little too small.

[PraetorDrew]

I've noticed with some of the lower end CMOS camcorders, if you pan rapidly left and right, you get a slight warping of the image. Vertical lines become noticeably diagonal. Does the RED share this issue, or have they fixed it?

[Bassman2003]

I have to agree with you Dean, you have a good point.

But what if the girl decided to be a foot model?

This would create an uncomfortable situation.

This is how I feel about the EX-1 in some of the environments I shoot in - low to no light with flashes going off.

The footage is amazing from this camera, but if I clutter up my footage with a lot of half exposed frames, am I doing my clients a disservice?

I have never felt like there was a situation where I would not shoot my DV cams...

[PerroneFord]

This is how I feel about the EX-1 in some of the environments I shoot in - low to no light with flashes going off.

The footage is amazing from this camera, but if I clutter up my footage with a lot of half exposed frames, am I doing my clients a disservice?


Does anyone have any posted examples of this rolling shutter problem? It won't be an issue for me with the shooting I primarily do, but since I just bought an EX1 and will most likely be buying a Scarlet, I'd really like to see some examples of how "awful" it really is.

[PraetorDrew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cItYepSTw74

And for the Jello effect (although I'm not sure if this is a drawback or a benefit, as it does look rather cool)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s&NR=1

[LuckyStudio 13]

This is a more realistic recreation of skews on a rolling shutter camera. If you do a freeze frame, I am pretty sure you can see some of the trees being skewed. Regardless, IMO, the footage is still 100% usable. Strobes and flashes are the only problem for a rolling shutter camera that will deemed your footage unusable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8n5Qp5RuoA

[Bokes]

perroneFord,
It's not awful. Not at all.
My experience so far:
I have used EX1 to shoot a few family events.
There were a few shots where a flash went off.
Watching the video at full speed- it looks like a flash. Big deal.

Not one client has complained. I only hear complaints about this on dv message boards. These cameras are designed and priced for low budget, event and corporate market. For that purpose they all work fine.
(If you want to make a feature film- rent an arri.)
I loved my HVX- ( and I used to hate Sony)
but I would never go back to the HVX for low light events just to avoid a few half frame flashes. I'll give the HPX a look- but going back to P2 - I don't know.
I can get almost twice as much footage on the same size SXS card.
the +'s far outweighs the negs.

[TheMusician]

Although we all agree that the issue of rolling shutter rears it's head infrequently, it does pose some problems occassionally. I cannot shoot a model runway due to the flashes, or a news pressconference. Sports shot at a distance where I am panning on the long end of the lense will cause harsh skew. Jellovision can happen under certain vibration situations. Under planned scenarios, the EX1 performs beautifully, but the rolling shutter does limit it's effectiveness in run and gun situations occassionally, and thus limits my work to a degree.

But there is good news, this is the first round of CMOS sensors and those that follow should be able to make these limitations disappear. Jim Jannard has stated that increasing the read-reset times of the sensor can greatly improve these shortcomings. The faster that a frame of video is read, the less time it will have to skew during a pan, to allow partial exposures, to allows image stretching (jello). If these features can be improved upon to a great enough extent, a global shutter will become unnecessary which is fantastic news - it will keep these chips inexpensive. The fact that RED is releasing an upgraded Mysterium X sensor when Scarlett is released is indication to me that it will be their 2nd generation sensor and we will see improvements in the current state of CMOS. Will it be perfect? Probably not, but surely much improved. Please don't take this as gospel because it is not, only speculation, but certainly a logical progression. This is what I am waiting most anxiously for with the release of Scarlet - how much improvement in CMOS was made between generations, and how much more freedom it will allow us in our work. I believe rolling shutter to be the growing pains of CMOS, which will be improved upon quickly. Too bad sony will not allow us to upgrade the sensor only as Red does.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Go past 3:10 and you can see tons of example why Flashes/strobes (Partial Exposure) problem is the achilles heel for a rolling shutter camera.

http://www.vimeo.com/1243446


If you see skews on a CMOS camera, you are probably panning or moving too fast to have usable footage to begin with.

If you see jello effect, you probably need to dampened your camera. Intense vibrations on any camera will destroy your footage, CMOS or CCD, and no audience will be able to tolerate the footage.

HOWEVER, If you shoot events or be in an environment with lots of strobes/flashes, you want a CCD camera. You shouldnt be using a CMOS camera. The problem is grave and there is no ways around it.

Hopefully the next iteration of CMOS will solve the partial exposure problem.

[basilisk]

That wedding footage (while making me want to vomit) is nevertheless fantastic in quality terms. It is clearly a strong argument for getting an EX1 (and the Letus).
Anyone who can afford to commission that sort of video can afford to rent a second camera for those crummy night shots full of flashguns - they will always look horrible anyway.

If your job is covering fashion shows or celebs getting out of limos in the dark, then obviously there are other cameras that might be better for you, but I am guessing there are plenty of shooters who don't live in LA, Paris or London who don't get those sorts of gigs very often.

[TheMusician]

Mysterium X is coming in the Spring of 2009. But did you guys read about the Monstro sensor upgrade coming out in 2010 on Reduser under Recon? I think I may have peed a little bit :thumbsup: I am really keeping my fingers crossed that they will allow a sensor upgrade path for the Scarlet as they are making it available for RED ONE and EPIC. Scarlet is going to be my next camera, so I really hope that might be an option for us, or else I'll just have to buy a new Scarlet. After reading Jim's posts on read-reset times, I imagine that there will be improvements on both the Mysterium X and Monstro chips in this regard and that we should see rolling shutter improvements, with higher dynamic range by Monstro. Here is to hoping.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Yes EX1 is remarkable in every sense. The cheapest full rasta semi/pro camera from panasonic is the hpx3000 at $48k without lens.

Just like CCD that has its limitation, an astute shooter should know their tools, exploit the advantages and hide their weaknesses. Just like the ways you can get shallow DOF without 35mm adapter by careful camera placing and manipulating some variables on the camera.

- start of rant -

On the other hand, speaking about the Scarlet, IMHO, RED can totally annihilate the current pro 2/3" ENG market by building a slightly bigger shoulder mountable camera with 4 cf card slots.

Instead they choose to go with hv20 palm sized camera that aimed towards everybody. I cant imagine the horror of these every day folks that will use their scarlet to film their kids soccer game (not enough zooms), birthdays, weddings (flash photography nightmare), skate-snowboarding (skews) ..etc.

Red is a cinema equipment company, why are they creating a camera designed for the masses dazzled me. Do any of you think the average person will love to go through the Red "RAW" workflow on their imac or macbook ? - end of rant -

[kyledroid]

Instead they choose to go with hv20 palm sized camera that aimed towards everybody. I cant imagine the horror of these every day folks that will use their scarlet to film their kids soccer game (not enough zooms), birthdays, weddings (flash photography nightmare), skate-snowboarding (skews) ..etc.

2 things:

1: "every day folks" is not Scarlets market. Would u pay 3 grand plus the additional 1 to 2 k it would take to just capture your son's soccergame...Not to mention the more involved workflow that would be required? Not for soccer moms. Scarlett is a prosumer camera system created with ENG/independent filmmaking in mind.

2: The MysteriumX chip with its faster read/reset times SHOULD fix cmos's skewing problem(maybe not entirely but mostly).

[LuckyStudio 13]

That's not what Ted said during the past NAB 2008

2 things:

1: "every day folks" is not Scarlets market. Would u pay 3 grand plus the additional 1 to 2 k it would take to just capture your son's soccergame...Not to mention the more involved workflow that would be required? Not for soccer moms. Scarlett is a prosumer camera system created with ENG/independent filmmaking in mind.

[kyledroid]

That's not what Ted said during the past NAB 2008

Im not familiar with Ted, but if he says so...

This is just my opinion, however, but at Scarlet's pricepoint, this camera is a tad bit out of the "everyday folk's" price range. And not to mention the costs of post production software(i.e. editing). I could be wrong, though. I do think that Red is trying to make a statement with Scarlet at that pricepoint, though. The message being that Red is committed to making high quality prosumer based products at consumer like prices- if that makes any sense at all. Yes, the pricepoint makes Scarlet available to a much broader and, admittedly, consumer based market, but that doesnt mean Scarlet is meant for everyone.

[TheMusician]

I guess that there are some situations where I could see it being used by a soccer mom. First, it would have to be a rich soccer Mom. And second, Scarlet would have to have some sort of processed image option that outputs to a 1080 standard codec for easy viewing. Or third, it would have to be a soccer Mom who is married to indie guys like us who have the camera lying around and we will do all the post.

But once you get into the RAW process, that is a whole different story. I see Scarlet as putting a real hurt on the whole 2/3" and under market, but not so much on the consumer market.

[lawriejaffa]

I think the issues relating to rolling shutter are not really comparable between cams like the EX and Red anyway.

Of course Red would make a comment on this issue, as this technology as gained an increasingly bad rep. Those suggesting folks marking these problems as simply being jealous (because what? they can't afford a prosumer ex... please!) lol are missing the point.

A somewhat relative point that may be too, but for me its about how we're evolving our camera tech, and if we're going to evolve that based on gimmicks or genuine functionality.

A full raster EX with a host of tech reliability issues and rolling shutters is not acceptable to me - a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect. So too might the 2nd generation cmos prosumer/professional cams that manage to get rid of the issues. Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.

[kubalsky]

I think the issues relating to rolling shutter are not really comparable between cams like the EX and Red anyway.

Of course Red would make a comment on this issue, as this technology as gained an increasingly bad rep. Those suggesting folks marking these problems as simply being jealous (because what? they can't afford a prosumer ex... please!) lol are missing the point.

A somewhat relative point that may be too, but for me its about how we're evolving our camera tech, and if we're going to evolve that based on gimmicks or genuine functionality.

A full raster EX with a host of tech reliability issues and rolling shutters is not acceptable to me - a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect. So too might the 2nd generation cmos prosumer/professional cams that manage to get rid of the issues. Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.

The old Cmos v CCd rant. Does everybody know that Cmos chips are cheaper to produce? That is why an EX1 with full 1920 by 1080 sensors can be produced at a similar cost to a HVX with smaller 720 pixel shifting CCD. It can all be summed up in a simple equation of price equals sensor size/sharpness divided by global or rolling shutter, or something like that. I don't know the math. But I know these companies are all the same people doing the same math.

[Buck Forester]

Those who try to bemoan some of the CCD drawbacks are on another planet if they think that compares equally to the issues we've seen thus far with cmos.

This horse is long dead, but your statement is not accurate. I will be doing a lot of shooting at night with (and at) headlamps. The vertical smear I see from CCD chips is something I do not want to have to deal with and would be a much worse and common problem for me than any limitations of CMOS. Shoot CCD, fine, shoot CMOS, fine, but puh-lease for all that is good, right, and honorable these kinds of statements are getting SO old. Plus there are no CCD based cameras even remotely CLOSE, not even on the same planet, for me to hit the high-def market I can with my EX1 vs XYZ-CCD camera at this price range. So CCD is not even an option for some of us even if we wanted to go that route. Just realize this, kuh-pleaze. CCD is great but it's not a universal option or even the choice for many people. That's a big DUH. But I know, CMOS is sooOOo icky. EwwWwww. Guh-rooOOoss.

CCD - gooOOoood. CMOS - baaaAAAad.

[Stevet]

a Red however with a refined rolling shutter system ridding most of the issues that result from it - is an altogether much better prospect.


Spoken like someone who truly has never used a RED ONE. Well, I've had them side-by-side for two weekends... YES, the RED has the same issues. Pan the RED fast and you get skew. No, we were not comparing in the sense who is better, but we were looking at how well these cameras can cut under certain conditions.

I agree with others here, you have a VERY strange obsession against the EX1.
How productive is this.

[lawriejaffa]

Okay...

If you actually read my post you would see that im referring to the new red cmos sensors in deveopment which if they rid the kind of probs we've seen in the EX and other early cmos cameras - then that may well make the technology acceptable to me as a camera operator and director - of course it already is to others.

That is my point, and its an important point for many interested especially in more mobile cameras like the Scarlet.

I won't accept your attempts to 'frame' my opinion stevet as my being obsessed about this or that, especially since you and buck post frequently on these topics also. But you steve, have a condescending attitude and personal tone when you critique people. I suggest you explore an attitude adjustment before claiming i have any bizarre obsessions!?

[Lenilenapi]

I expect that Sony is also working to solve the same reset problem with the CMOS sensor. Don't surprised to see both technologies improved at approximately the same time.

[lawriejaffa]

Yep agreed - i think this will be the aim of all the manufacturers including panny (i wouldnt be surprised) for integrating it into even industry technology.

However it depends on how much it can be improved! Though i think inevitably it can be resolved more or less to not show the most obvious 'flaws'.

On the plus weve seen the possibilities of cmos technology with the RED - and in prosumer with the EX, and consumer the HV20 and others. I look forward to its refinement and the possibilities that can bring.

[RDykmans]

I'm enjoying CMOS technology today - with an EX1. All I can say is "what flaws"?

I'm blown away by how much better the video is out of the EX1 then the HVX (I owned an HVX for a couple of years, my comment is based on that)

I have shot enough in the last few weeks to realize rolling shutter is a non issue for me.

[Buck Forester]

...and in prosumer with the EX...


Last I looked the EX1 is part of the Sony Professional Broadcast line, not a prosumer model. "The PMW-EX1 XDCAM EX Camcorder is Sony's exciting new addition to our XDCAM family of professional tapeless acquisition tools".

Of course, if one didn't really like the EX1, sure, call it what you want. Keep opening up those boxes of Cracker Jacks, lawriejaffa, maybe you'll find an EX1 as the prize? :Þ

[lawriejaffa]

Its okay Buck your ego is allowed to think this - its all part of marketing, but slapping a badge on my ass saying cinealta or varicam won't make it so... to most folks i reckon, an industry cam is 2/3 chip up with an over-expensive lens...

As for RDykmans... - if you love your cam great... but the issues of rolling shutter have been shown, listed, proven, so ignore it or work around it and live on and prosper - but don't deny it exists... is it exaggerated - probably. I can imagine how that gets users defensive about it on these boards.

The cmos tech is just not there for me yet - and for many in fact... its application with Red has limited the visibility of these flaws but even their working hard on improving the useage of that tech. Its pronounced flaws in prosumer and consumer cams are of course circumstantial on how we shoot - but those circumstances are to me distasteful. Ie. flash photography, certain lights strobing, bending/distortion and such like. That CCDs can't deal with being pointed straight at a light source is well, a small drawback in comparison right?

But look, i dont want this stupid debate going on - and it wasnt even about the EX, before fanboy rage came into it - of course ive criticised the cam, but its still a great cam that i wouldnt kick out the bed for farting. So can we leave it at that? Otherwise there will be another 10 pages of Buck... (and i do love you Buck)

[Buck Forester]

Its okay Buck your ego is allowed to think this

Ha! I don't think Sony consulted my ego before they made their XDCAM series! I'd actually have to have an ego to think that. Doesn't have anything to with me. Sorry 'bout that. I'm sure you'll recover though. :Þ And I bought the EX1 based on the footage I saw, not who actually made it or what they called it or where they positioned it in the market.

an industry cam is 2/3 chip up with an over-expensive lens...

Hey, if that's what you and your ego need, a 2/3" chip and an expensive lens to produce 'pro' quality content, that's your call. More power to ya.


The cmos tech is just not there for me yet


That's fine... not sure why you have to seek out EX1-based forums on a regular basis to tell us, over and over and over and over and over, why you like CCD and trash-talk CMOS. There's lots of CCD-based forums here, if that's what you like, check them out, you might like them. Or not. It's like you have nightmares about CMOS and as soon as you wake up you come to the EX1 forums and start dissin'. We get it, the EX1 is yucky to you. It's like every time you even think of the EX1 you throw up a little bit in your mouth.

That CCDs can't deal with being pointed straight at a light source is well, a small drawback in comparison right?


Maybe for you. That's cool, stick with CCD. No one's asking you to change your shooting habits or telling you CCD sucks. You're actually in a great position, you shoot 2/3"+ CCD cameras with super duper flipper dipper expensive glass, the world is yours. Yet you spend your online time kicking the poor suckers who got duped with an EX1. We know the EX1 is crappy, most of us actually bought it as a crash-cam. It's great until the moment of impact. Ha!

But look, i dont want this stupid debate going on...

You lie! You know you like it. You lawk it alawt.

(and i do love you Buck)

I love you more.

I just wished you loved me as much as a 2/3" CCD camera. Yes, call me jealous. But I bet a 2/3" CCD can't make a good meatloaf.

[lawriejaffa]

Okay well, i think we're fairly confident of our own opinions so we'll just agree to disagree! ;)

Anyway im looking forward to seeing more footage posted - theres a uk filmmaker making a feature on 2 ex1 cams at the mo (someone of relative repute) tho i can't remember his blooming name (its all filmed in an old military bunker.)

And I love you more with cherries on top to infinite!

[Buck Forester]

Throw some whipped cream on there and you got a deal.

[Stevet]

Okay...

I won't accept your attempts to 'frame' my opinion stevet as my being obsessed about this or that, especially since you and buck post frequently on these topics also.

Well, I actually own the EX1 and don't hang out here to take stabs at it.

[lawriejaffa]

Yeah - and it would seem your taking a stab at me... AGAIN... You need to take things less personally, and be less personnel. These forums are for discussions about everything from technology, cameras and movies and so much more, there not for forum members to psycho-analyse and frame others as obsessive or pathetic individuals just because they happen to disagree with you.

[Stevet]

These forums are for discussions about everything from technology, cameras and movies and so much more

My point exactly.

You don't see us hanging in the HVX200 user forum bashing that camera. We expect the same here.

[lawriejaffa]

Um 'exactly' my ass! And who the hell is 'us' btw?! Again your trying to frame what im saying in this thread to be anti-ex... GROW UP, i was discussing cmos technology relative to the RED and all cameras.

'We expect the same here.'

We?! What is this... Westside Story? Are you the spokesman of the EX gang or something hehe... can you sing?!? INSANE!



I think you should try baiting fish... you might have more success!

[Buck Forester]

HEY! No arguing without me! TRUCE! I thought we decided all cameras pretty much suck, unless you're shooting IMAX (but not handheld).

Everyone else, you can sit on my CMOS and ROTATE! <--- keeeding

[lawriejaffa]

haha well put Buck - okay creamy peace in our time!

[Stevet]

Buck that's it! lawriejaffa has convinced me to sell my EX1!
You're right, it's junk!

[lawriejaffa]

Jeez stevet, you should sony's new Diazepam rebate - it'll help you relax! Honest!

[TheMusician]

This is really productive guys. Why don't you go hang out in the Cafe forum for these kind of arguments. I am learning absolutely nothing from you and have nothing to contribute. This is a thread about REDs view on CMOS technology and you have completely hijacked it into bickering. There is nothing quite like seeing a thread about "RED and CMOS" and entering to learn nothing about it except cyber-fighting. Please stop. Find a thread where you have something valueable to say. Ask questions. Learn. Let someone learn from you.

[lawriejaffa]

haha guess thats us told musician - but true true tho ;)

[Buck Forester]

True dat. I'm guilty of being too goofy. I'll try and cut the goof factor, I realize it's not informative. If the moderators wanna chop out the silliness from this thread, that's cool. Spank me once.

[RDykmans]

You don't see us hanging in the HVX200 user forum bashing that camera. We expect the same here.

God forbid going over to the HVX forum and saying anything negative about this cam vs the HVX. I don't mind people criticizing the EX1 but I'd prefer it coming from someone who actually has used the cam extensively rather then someone who probably can't bear the fact that his CCD camera is going the way of the dinosaur.

[lawriejaffa]

Yeah thats right... RDykmans i'll refer you to TheMusician

[RDykmans]

Yeah thats right... RDykmans i'll refer you to TheMusician

Why do you keep responding to me?

Do you have anything relevant, based on real world experience with a RED or an EX1 to contribute? It's easier to get respect with some real experience rather then personal attacks and sarcasm.

[lawriejaffa]

Um you need to calm down, and i responded by referring you to a poster above. Folks got over sensitive with a discussion, me and buck joked about it, you seem to be going off your rocker... relax

[mico]

Um you need to calm down, and i responded by referring you to a poster above. Folks got over sensitive with a discussion, me and buck joked about it, you seem to be going off your rocker... relax

Seems the one going off his rocker is you. You're dead air.

I have a RED, and an Canon HF10 and have used the EX1. Rolling shutter is a minor inconvenience at best when you see the most amazing resolution these cams put out. The idea of going back to the HVX is ridiculous. Also ridiculous are the false postings that long GOP 4.2.0 and AVCHd is too difficult to edit and color correct.

If this board taught me anything is to never be swayed by forum postings and to try these cams for yourself to see the truth that meets your needs.

[lawriejaffa]

Enough is enough, this is a case of fanboys getting a little over excited.

I'm dead air?

Okay mico... have your rant but BEFORE directing it at me- have you even read what i said, cos it was like 2 pages ago...

My point was that the evolution of cmos tech will make it amenable to me in future because its drawbacks aren't at present. That is the opinion of many... while RED is improving the cmos for a REASON....

I don't think anything im saying is so radical... your denounciation of everything so far critical of cmos Mico, is yourself getting a little over excited not me mate. Its just an opinion, and this is a free discussion. Why so many folks try to make this personal, and try to 'frame' people, or their arguments for automatic comebacks and put downs is ridiculous.

Take me and Buck, we both post frequently, but guess what, we can agree to disagree and even joke about it...

Cmos as it is - is an issue for many, but so were the reasons people left other cams to invest in the benefits of cmos cams, that on its own, is hardly the stuff of passion is it? But men's egos it would seem are another.

[mico]

Enough is enough, this is a case of fanboys getting a little over excited.

I'm dead air?

Okay mico... have your rant but BEFORE directing it at me- have you even read what i said, cos it was like 2 pages ago...

My point was that the evolution of cmos tech will make it amenable to me in future because its drawbacks aren't at present. That is the opinion of many... while RED is improving the cmos for a REASON....

I don't think anything im saying is so radical... your denounciation of everything so far critical of cmos Mico, is yourself getting a little over excited not me mate. Its just an opinion, and this is a free discussion. Why so many folks try to make this personal, and try to 'frame' people, or their arguments for automatic comebacks and put downs is ridiculous.

Take me and Buck, we both post frequently, but guess what, we can agree to disagree and even joke about it...

Cmos as it is - is an issue for many, but so were the reasons people left other cams to invest in the benefits of cmos cams, that on its own, is hardly the stuff of passion is it? But men's egos it would seem are another.

Everyones over excited but you huh?
Oh so you speak for the "many" now?
Really who the hell cares if you will find cmos tech amenable to you in the future. You post on a forum where you've had countless responses from people saying they enjoy their cmos cams and instead of going out and finding out why their having such a good time, we have to hear this stupid refrain of cmos is not ready over and over again ad nauseam.

How can cmos purchasers be fanboys when the the site is dedicated to the other chip?

Are all these cmos users deluding themselves in your eyes?

Did you ever stop to think that most of these cmos users had an HVX and sold them like I did ?

I'd like to know what compels you to keep telling us you're not ready for cmos?

Okay you're not ready...Bye.

[RDykmans]

Thanks Mico, you just saved me a lot of typing.

With comments like "from another planet" and "fanboy" and then this: "Why so many folks try to make this personal, and try to 'frame' people, or their arguments for automatic comebacks and put downs is ridiculous."

That's just classic!

I'm done with this as well. Bye . . . .