What should I buy???? Help!?

[MechSpike]

Should I buy a 16mm camera? I found a Pillard Bolex 16mm camera for only $420. It looks like it's brand new practically. I don't know if I should go 16mm or digital? I guess they are both going to be pricy, but I don't really have funds to buy a nice digital camera. I love the look of film but I've never shot on film and hardly know much about shooting on it. I'm a film projectionist, so I'm definitely familiar with running film, but when it comes to shooting on it, I'm pretty lost. Any suggestions or ideas?!?!

PS I would much rather have a 16mm camera and only be able to shoot a 10 minute film than have this expensive digital one and empty my wallet making a longer film.

[Evro]

Hi MechSpike,

I think it all comes down to what you want to do with your film/video at the end of the day. Sure the initial outlay for a good digital camcorder might be high for some people however the total cost of ownership for a 16mm camera is even higher! It's the cost of the 16mm stock, the processing and then the scanning to DV which is going to cost you a lot of money. There's also a much steeper learning curve involved with shooting film than the WYSIWYG nature of digital camcorders.

I commend you for wanting to go film however I think you might be looking at it for the wrong reasons also starting out with 16mm is taking a much more expensive risk especially as say you can't afford a digital camcorder. I would say grab yourself a Canon Auto Zoom Super 8 because they are as well known for their reliability and their running costs are much lower. Otherwise you can pickup the popular Canon HV20 for around $700 used.

[MechSpike]

What about buying a used Canon XL1 for about $1000 is that a good buy?

[Evro]

The problem with Canon cameras is that you never really know how much work they've done because they don't have an integral hour meter so it's a bit of a gamble - especially for such an old model.

[Huy Vu]

XL1 for $1000 is not a good deal. For just a few hundreds more you can get an original DVX.

[MikeGunter]

Hi,

From an old, and not so wise, film teacher's perspective, I'd recommend a small video camera, like an HV30 or an HF10, and a few inexpensive tools, like a wide-angle adapter, maybe a tele, too, a decent tripod, and a few good lighting tools.

You really don't need too much to learn how to start to tell your story, and frankly, you can add a DIY adapter for a few hundred bucks to on of the small cameras just as well as a big camera, to learn about how depth of field helps to tell your story.

You likely need to concentrate on story elements, shooting, making movies, the more you shoot, the better you'll become. The cheaper that is, the more you'll do.

Film will eat you alive; I've been there, done that when that was all there was to do.

My thoughts. Feel free to disregard.

[MechSpike]

Well I don't want a small consumer camera. I want something that is at least semi-professional. I don't know what are the good cameras for the best price. You mentioned for a few hundred dollars more I could get a different camera? I don't even know what camera you are referring to. I've been making movies all my teenage life, but I've never actually owned my own camera. Now is the time, so I am just trying to find the easiest and cheapest way to do that without copping out and buying it at wal-mart. I would love to have an adapter, but it seems way too complex to build and way too expensive to buy. I know a decent amount about depth of field, I've been browsing this forum or quite some time soaking up all the info possible. What I really need is just a suggestion on a camera to buy thats cheaper than $1500 if possible, even a used one...

[MikeGunter]

Well, film would be out in any case, then. One reel of film would likely be somewhere around $60 to shoot and process and transfer to video for editing - assuming you didn't go to a Moviola ;-) - and thats for for a few minutes. Shooting film isn't cheap. You likely want to forget that.

Getting a full-up professional camera will be a bigger investment, and will cost more for sure. What you will gain from if is up to you to pencil in.

What do you want and what's it worth to you?

I carry a small camera on a lot of shoots because it's small. When I travel, I carry the small camera. Small cameras are easy to carry. That's something to consider.

What you should likely do is sit down and write out points about what you need and what you want. Prioritize your list and then make up your mind based on that. Be hard and honest. I'd also be cheap. Conserving dollars is a wise thing. You don't want to be chasing technology all the time. Try to figure out what you want to say. That's the thing to chase.

You want to learn to get good focus, good exposure, good sound, and composition, and put all the sequences in a meaning order.

Even a decent camera from Wal-Mart can likely do that in talented hands, although there are some better choices to make.

[MechSpike]

I know exactly what I want in the camera, but I there are so many cameras out there, I don't know where to start. I don't know what cameras are good and what cameras aren't. I have used a Canon GL2 but they go for $2000 and in my opinion are WAY overpriced. I have also used an XL1, which I liked, but I apparentely it's not worth the price either...

[MikeGunter]

I know exactly what I want in the camera, but I there are so many cameras out there, I don't know where to start. I don't know what cameras are good and what cameras aren't. I have used a Canon GL2 but they go for $2000 and in my opinion are WAY overpriced. I have also used an XL1, which I liked, but I apparentely it's not worth the price either...

Can you share your "Must have" have list as well as your "Want" list?

For example, you seem to be okay with going DV instead of HD, so format is either.

XLR inputs? Mini Jack? But it has to have audio input? How do you plan to acquire audio? Are you requiring audio monitoring? But if you get a mini-jack and have XLR mics, then you have to add an adapter box or adapter cable.

What sort of zoom ratio do you need? Macro capabilities?

What sort of pre-production adjustments do you want to make to video processing? Chroma, detail, and such?

What do edit with? Do you plan to edit 4:3, 16:9, or go to another ratio? That might make yet another difference in what camera, too.

There's a bunch of talented folks here to help you out. Post a few of your needs and wants and see if some things pop up.

My best to you.

[Huy Vu]

In my opinion, with the current camera market, there's no reason to buy such cameras as the GL2, XL1/1s, PD150/170 or VX series. If you're looking to buy used, DVX prices have drop to such an extent that you get far more bang for the buck just getting that; a DVX100 can be had for $1200-1300, 100A for $1500-1600, and a 100B or even an XL2 for around $2000.

If you're ready to step up to the newest generation of cameras, then you need to do serious research and decide on what you want. They're not as clear cut in term of features, and what you get will depend on your budget and shooting needs.

[MechSpike]

Well HD is not necessary, although it would be nice. I use Final Cut Pro 2 on an iMac to edit my movies. I want it to be a medium to large sized camera. I find that anything small enough to be a consumer camera is just way to fiddly to work with in terms of important features. XLR inputs would be awesome, and the more I think about it, the more I think I want at least one or two if possible. Zoom isn't too important, as long as it zooms at least a small amount then I'm okay. With ratio, I would like to shoot in 16:9, but I assume that it would be too much money to get a camera that shoots natively to it. Cameras like the GL2 don't even have a viewfinder that supports it, so shooting wide with it is a pain.

I'll be honest, I'm not too familiar with chroma, detail etc. that was mentioned. I have seen the terms around, but I don't really know what they are used for. I believe chroma is used for green screen maybe? If so, I am not really interested in using green screen.

That's about it for my needs and wants. Thanks for the help guys, you guys always seem to know what's out there for the right price.

[davide]

The last 16mm film I shot was 2 minutes and cost me over $50 for film stock and transferring. If you plan on doing a lot of shooting digital is a far more economical alternative.

[Mattykins]

16mm is fun, but expensive. I still like shooting 16mm. Personally I like it better than getting a DV camera or HDV camera. Especially after Vision 3 came out. Amazed at the dynamic range on that thing. We were shooting at night, all natural lighting. And pulled detail out from everywhere. My jaw simply dropped.

Personally I am not going to shoot a major production digitally until I can use an F35.

I am fine with spending the extra money on film. But then again, I use an Aaton LTR or XTR Prod....hated using a bolex (never again). Its not cheap, and it certainly isn't for a beginner.

Like everyone said, get a digital cam and practice. To shoot film you need to know how it works in and out, how to use light meters, match colour temperatures, load the cameras (easier said than done sometimes).

You might want to rent out a film camera and play with it for a bit.

[MechSpike]

Okay, so after everything has been said my question still stands. What should I buy? I'll gladly go digital, but I need to know what would be a good camera for a decent price. I listed what I would like in the camera as well in my last post.

[Huy Vu]

Well, it's not at all clear what you wanted. Your description is basically "the best I can get that's not too expensive." We need to know your budget to be able to recommend cameras.

[metro2307]

a DVX100 can be had for $1200-1300, 100A for $1500-1600, and a 100B or even an XL2 for around $2000.

Huy Vu is right. Under $1500 narrows it a lot. DVX100B would be my choice in your situation and I'm starting to see them for $1800. Check the Marketplace section and do a search.

[MechSpike]

I was trying to go for no more than $1500. I'll check out that DVX100B.

[Mattykins]

I say HV20, they are going for 600. HD and 24P, plus mic input.

[metro2307]

Mattykins is right for staying in that budget range. Good advice. If you're still interested in the DVX100B, there's one for $1750 at the Marketplace.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=139795

[Loren Simons]

and if you like the look of film you could go with an HV20 and than maybe get a sort of 35mm adapter? It makes your camera look far less consumer, and the outcome aint to bad either ;)

[Evro]

I recently sold both my DVX100Bs, one went for $1,900 & the other for $2,500. Now I'm looking for a Canon 814 or 1014XLS because these darn Auto Zoom Electronic models are too noisy!

BTW MechSpike (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?u=34520) I'm really surprised that you don't know of the DVX as this model is legendary!! You really need to do your research before you can appreciate why the DVX is such a legend in the DV camcorder world.

I recently got a Canon HV30 and have pre-ordered the new V3 RNG35 35mm DOF adaptor. I gotta say I'm super impressed with the little HV30 - the only thing I wish I could do with it is disable the AGC - other than that it's like holding a mini-me version of the XH-A1.

[MechSpike]

To be honest, I've only heard a few specific cameras. I'm not heavily into the technical aspects of movie making...that is with different types of cameras and what they do. Of course I CARE about them, but I just don't know all the different models etc.

I'll check out that other one mentioned for cheap...

I just want to go as cheap as possible but still be able to have it look decent. I'm not REAL picky.

PS I just looked at the HV20 and wow I'm impressed. I originally wasn't going to go for a smaller consumer-like camera, but that one looks pretty nice. Especially with the 24p. For only 700 bucks that's somewhat of a steal.

Can anyone tell me what they think of that camera? Any opinions?

My one concern is just ease of use. I want one that gives me manual exposure and focus. Also, would I be able to get a 35mm adapter for that? Or make one....?

[Mattykins]

I use the HV20 on everything I do outside of work. Why? Because I don't believe in buying consumer or even prosumer cameras. I rent everything I use typically. This comes from someone who uses F900s and Aatons.

It serves my needs. Exposure is manual if you use a work around. Which also gives you gain control. You need to search on here to find it. Basically you have to buy a minisd card.

You aren't going to get a pro looking rig for 1500. Ain't gonna happen. There is more to film than the camera. The HV20 will give you some work, though its a finicky camera. Lots of workarounds needed. Extracting the 24p footage is a pain. And yes, you can get a 35mm adapter when you are ready for it.

[MechSpike]

okay...so your basically saying its not that good...but i have to deal? lol I'm trying to just understand if it's a good buy or not. Everything I read about it it seems to be good. I already found some adapters for it that aren't that expensive.

I'm not trying to get a pro rig...but I want something that I can go make movies with and have them look decent.....

Some of the lingo you guys use here flies over my head and I try to keep up.

What workarounds? So I have to like hack the thing to get it to do anything manual?

[egyptianboxer104]

red scarlet... nuff said.

[Paladin]

If you want to shoot on 16mm film, I have a Bella and Howell Filmo 70DR that is in very good to excellent condition for sale. It runs quiet and smooth, as good as new. The B7H Filmos are built tough and are virtually indestructible. War correspondants, news cameramen and documentary filmmakers have used them in some of the harshest conditions imaginable. They were the filmmakers' workhorses all through WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. They are very low maintenance, too. Just a few drops of sewing machine oil a couple of times a year and you're good to go.

I am selling mine with a Pan Cinor 17mm - 70mm zoom lens, a K-to-C-mount lens adapter that allows you to use standard K-mount 35mm (still camera) lenses and a light meter.

Just send me a PM if you think you might be interested.