i don't know about the ex-1

[doofalot]

i just keep hearing horror stories about this baby but i don't know how many of them are relevant for real life use in narrative filmmaking and how many of them are people trying to show the theoretical limits of the camera in extreme situations.

will the ex-1 hold up in a chase sequence? a fight sequence in a boxing ring? a martial arts showdown?

or is it only incredible when philip bloom aligns the sun and stars for some breathtaking nature photography?

has anyone seen the ex1 results for situations that are realistic for narrative film but will create supposed challenges for the ex1 like fights and chases? are the fighters all bendy and wobbly and diagonal?

[gabrielflorit]

I know Sony's promotional footage involves planes in the sky. They're fast moving objects. No wobbliness was observed. Also, Philip Bloom has footage of ice-skaters, in his Kew Gardens, I think. No wobliness there either. I think someone here (or on dvinfo) said that if you're panning fast enough to create the wobbles, you're panning too fast, and it would look bad on any camera.

[Barry_Green]

i just keep hearing horror stories about this baby but i don't know how many of them are relevant for real life use in narrative filmmaking and how many of them are people trying to show the theoretical limits of the camera in extreme situations.

will the ex-1 hold up in a chase sequence? a fight sequence in a boxing ring? a martial arts showdown?
You're going to hear folks on both sides of the aisle arguing, but the simple fact is that only you can tell if it'll be satisfactory for your uses. I'd say for running/handheld, no, the EX1 is the wrong choice for that.

There are numerous clips all over the web, just search for "rolling shutter" and you'll find all you can stand. If you want some EX1-specific clips, many have been posted here. Some people think they're extreme, others are reporting that these are the results they got. Regardless, you have to decide whether the product will handle what you're looking for.


For an extreme example, here's what it looks like on a really fast pan:
http://www.vimeo.com/1167949

If you know you'll never do a shot like that, then maybe the EX1 is appropriate. However, if you're going to do shots like that, then forget the EX1.

No amount of "wishful thinking" will make the problems go away. The only thing you can do is educate yourself as to what circumstances it happens under, and either avoid those circumstances, or avoid the cameras that can't perform under those circumstances. Anything else is folly.

or is it only incredible when philip bloom aligns the sun and stars for some breathtaking nature photography?
Philip Bloom can make any camera look breathtaking.

[doofalot]

You're going to hear folks on both sides of the aisle arguing, but the simple fact is that only you can tell if it'll be satisfactory for your uses. I'd say for running/handheld, no, the EX1 is the wrong choice for that.

There are numerous clips all over the web, just search for "rolling shutter" and you'll find all you can stand. If you want some EX1-specific clips, many have been posted here. Some people think they're extreme, others are reporting that these are the results they got. Regardless, you have to decide whether the product will handle what you're looking for.

yeah see that's just not cool. that is what i would classify as 'moderate to extreme rolling shutter' in what is not really an extreme filming situation. it looks like crap. now i don't know if the shot would have been usable on a ccd chip. maybe the situation was extreme and entirely gongshow from a professional perspective, just running all shaky with camera pointed sideways. in which case, it would just end up looking like smoothcammed rubbish no matter what. and it smells.

thanks for the links.

yeah bloom's stuff is damn nice. but at the same time, i did watch the ww1 short and i have to say that anything still had that bloom great photography look, but the second the camera was moving or even if the subjects were moving quickly in a closeup it didn't look bad but it had this real TV video feel to it for some reason, maybe the way the EX handled motion.

[Buck Forester]

doofalot, for me as I went through this decision proccess, I guess it depends if you're gonna shoot well planned, carefully thought out footage, or handheld jerky motion at high speed settings or very fast pans at high settings.

Just investigate the bad stuff and don't take it at face value.
I'm going to be using my EX1 for wilderness adventure stuff, but I'm going to carefully shoot each scene and not just run with the camera bouncing in my hands because personally I don't like that kind of footage from any kind of camera. But some people like it, no doubt. If I was going to shoot a lot of the jarring walk/run footage, I doubt I'd get the EX1. I don't know. But there's not many other options out there for me because I NEED the full 1920x1080 chip size to hit the specs of some of my markets. For my handhelf moving stuff I'll be using a stabilzer much of the time, but that's more because I prefer the look of the fluid movement than the jarring movement. I think whatever camera you choose you'll be very happy with it and get amazing footage.

[gabrielflorit]

yeah bloom's stuff is damn nice. but at the same time, i did watch the ww1 short and i have to say that anything still had that bloom great photography look, but the second the camera was moving or even if the subjects were moving quickly in a closeup it didn't look bad but it had this real TV video feel to it for some reason, maybe the way the EX handled motion.


I think Philip wanted the fast-shutter look for a "Saving Private Ryan" effect. That has nothing to do with the chip.

[matthew77]

doofalot.

[doofalot]

I think Philip wanted the fast-shutter look for a "Saving Private Ryan" effect. That has nothing to do with the chip.

i totally got that he went fast shutter for SPR but still something about it said video to me, even taking that into account. but yes good observation. anyway he still did a good job and his actors were only so so which caused me to focus more on the camera stuff i think.

[doofalot]

You're going to hear folks on both sides of the aisle arguing, but the simple fact is that only you can tell if it'll be satisfactory for your uses. I'd say for running/handheld, no, the EX1 is the wrong choice for that.

There are numerous clips all over the web, just search for "rolling shutter" and you'll find all you can stand. If you want some EX1-specific clips, many have been posted here. Some people think they're extreme, others are reporting that these are the results they got. Regardless, you have to decide whether the product will handle what you're looking for.

also while googling will give me tons and tons of discussion about rolling shutter and plenty of lightning and police car strobes it doesnt actually give me much in the way of narrative work done on the ex1. all i can really find is mr bloom's world war piece. given that he is the ex1 guru and a cinematography master i wouldnt mind seeing what is achievable in the hands of the merely talented.

[gabrielflorit]

If I'm not mistaken, the previous DvxFest, LoveFest, featured the EX1 in one of the top three entries, Winter Lilacs. You won't see any crazy pans - as a matter of fact the camera gets out of the way for all but two shots. Another good place for EX1 clips would be Vimeo - do a search for the PMW-EX1 or EX1 tags. There's "ex1 footage here" threads on both dvxuser and dvinfo, but Vimeo / Exposure Room will give you a better idea of what you're about to see.

Cheers - yes, the EX1 isn't the silver bullet.

[Barry_Green]

wouldnt mind seeing what is achievable in the hands of the merely talented.Talented is one thing, recognizing the product's limitations is perhaps another. A mildly talented or even brilliantly talented filmer, who puts a rolling shutter camera in one of the "bad" circumstances, is going to end up with pooched footage. Avoid those circumstances and you can get brilliant results.

The rolling shutter can/will affect you in a number of circumstances:
Flashes/strobes: nothing you can do about it, you're going to get big bands across the footage. If it's a rare/occasional thing you can try repairing it in post, but if it's constant flashing you're hosed. An occasional flash? Maybe you feel like fixing that in post; a Barack Obama speech? Forget about it. A longer shutter speed appears to slightly lessen the impact, but it's always going to happen.

HMI/fluo lighting: if you're shooting under magnetic HMIs or fluorescent, you'll get rippling bands throughout your footage. You can try to control this by using a shutter speed of 1/40th or 1/60th, or by only using high-frequency electronic-ballast fixtures.

Skewing: if you're panning the camera, the footage is gonna skew. It just is, and there's nothing you can do about it. The faster the pan, the more the skew; it can range from minimal to wildly objectionable. So either shoot primarily locked-down shots, or compose your shots in such a way as to hide the skewing, or experiment to find out what level of skew you're comfortable with.

Stretch/compress: if you're tilting the camera up or down, the image will shrink/stretch depending on which way you're going. Again, there's not a thing you can do about it. The slower you go, the less noticeable the effect will be. The faster you go, the more noticeable.

Wobble: if you subject the camera to shocks, vibrations, or fast reversals (such as running handheld footage will do), it's gonna wobble. Get used to it. There is nothing you can do about it. So, like the doctor said when the patient complained "it hurts when I do this", the doctor says "don't do that." Use a Steadicam or put the camera on a crane or something instead of trying to handheld/run with it.

Match moving/compositing: the rolling shutter is going to complicate your ability to do 3-D graphics compositing and match moving. Russ Andersson of Syntheyes says "just don't use a rolling shutter camera for those shots." Obviously, like everything else, it's all dependent on your level of tolerance. If it's a mild movement, the rolling shutter effect will be mild, and you might get a perfectly satisfactory composite. It's all up to your threshold of acceptability.

And, keep in mind that it doesn't have to be the camera movement: you could have the camera totally locked down and still get rolling shutter artifacts. What happens to cause it is motion in the frame. That can be caused by the camera moving around a stationary object, or by a moving object around a stationary camera (for example, shooting a spinning fan even though your camera's on a tripod). And, of course, a moving camera with a moving subject can cause it. What matters is the AMOUNT of RELATIVE motion. Little motion = little discernible artifacting; more motion = more artifacting. Puredrifting posted a photo of a golf club that's bent like rubber. The camera could be locked down, but a fast-moving golf club is going to distort on a rolling shutter.

These are the cold hard facts. Sounds problematic, and it is. But in every problem there's also an opportunity. If you learn all this stuff and learn how to avoid the problems, you could probably bill yourself as an expert EX-1 DIT who can make sure that whoever hires you won't get rolling-shuttered footage; you could consult and advise them. But if you're the type who doesn't want to bother learning all this stuff and maintaining this type of database of information, why buy into the problem?

[Barry_Green]

If I'm not mistaken, the previous DvxFest, LoveFest, featured the EX1 in one of the top three entries, Winter Lilacs. You won't see any crazy pans - as a matter of fact the camera gets out of the way for all but two shots.Excellent example.
Winter Lilacs is an example of superb cinematography with an EX1, and is about the 180-degree opposite of what's being asked about here (action scenes, fight scenes, chase scenes). For a film like Winter Lilacs, sure -- EX1 did extremely well. For a show like COPS? I think that'd be the extremely wrong tool for that job.

[kubalsky]

You should check this out.....

http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/18/1207064695918.pdf

[doofalot]

You should check this out.....

http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/18/1207064695918.pdf

wtf? do people not take pictures at Iron Maiden concerts? if sony was smart they would publicize successful clips like this shot with the EX1 and explain how and assuage the fears of the prosumer masses.

[basilisk]

I remember a discussion of rolling shutter on the Canon HV20. Someone had attached the camera to a light tripod on a breezy day. Somehow the wind was creating high frequency vibrations, and the "jelly cam" distortion effect on the footage was very noticable.
I have never seen anything this bad out of the EX1, and my guess is that it is much harder to set up high frequency vibrations in a camera that is so much heavier than an HV20. It may be that the data is being read of the chip more rapidly than the HV20. Certainly Russ "Syntheyes" Andersson was talking in the first instance about the HV20 when voicing his concerns about the rolling shutter.
This is not to say that the concerns are not there, but that the concerns that arose about the HV20 seem to have led people to assume that the EX1 will be just as problematical, and from all I have seen and experienced, that may be entirely the case.

My view is that if you are doing controlled, planned shooting, where you can do retakes (and it is very quick to take the clips on to your MacBook Pro and check they are OK), you are not going to find a better camera in the price range. It is an excellent green screen camera because of its resolution, low noise image, light sensitivity, and relatively non-destructive codec.

I have no first hand experience of using it as a documentary/news camera, and I would imagine that the rolling shutter issues there would have to be balanced against the fact that it produces a fantastic image in low light, getting you shots that might not be possible at all with another camera.

I guess if you are looking to use it at 1080p24/25 as a film camera replacement, then some of the issues become non-issues. If you pan too fast your image will look jittery before stuff starts to tilt. If you hand hold your camera you will need to stabilize it somehow, as again it will look jerky before it starts to wobble. These are to do with low frame rate and HD resolution, and not to do with rolling shutter.

[kubalsky]

wtf? do people not take pictures at Iron Maiden concerts? if sony was smart they would publicize successful clips like this shot with the EX1 and explain how and assuage the fears of the prosumer masses.

...actually, at live concerts like that the flashes of cameras wouldn't be an issue because the stage lights are so bright they would cancel the flashes out.

[kyledroid]

It's my understanding that a slower shutter speed can negate the skewing and wobble effects we see to an extent. Could someone put together a test, possibly? Testing shutter speeds with correlation to pans and skewing?

[Barry_Green]

Slower shutter speeds have absolutely NO effect on skewing and wobbling. There will be exactly the same amount of skewing and wobbling regardless of the shutter speed. Slower shutter speeds will add blur to the skew/wobble, but the same amount will still be there.

[kyledroid]

Sorry didnt mean to say negate. I really meant hide the skew somewhat. But still id like to see how much more the lower shutter speeds hide the skew versus the higher shutter speeds...

[Barry_Green]

There's some pix on DVInfo where a guy tested that, he had some picture of vertical black/white bars, I think it was some manner of piano key instructional picture or something, and he panned past it with slow and fast shutter speeds. The amount of leaning is identical, the difference is whether the black-to-white transition was blurry or sharp.

[Buck Forester]

Hey kyledroid, check out lots of EX1 clips at Vimeo. Scroll through them, there are plenty of videos with panning and don't show skewing. I'd look at all the various clips you see as a whole and wouldn't put as much weight on the "I know a guy who saw someone post something on a forum", etc. There are thousands and thousands of these cameras producing amazing footage and people are posting great stuff online, even panning shots... now and then you'll see something extreme and people REALLY focus on those few examples. I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter. Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.

[Barry_Green]

I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter.
Turning off the shutter makes no difference in the amount of leaning that happens.

Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.
When used properly, slowly enough, yes. And if you can guarantee that you'll always be able to stay within those restrictions, sure -- go ahead.

Just don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there aren't any complications due to a rolling shutter, because there unquestionably are. Learn what they actually are, what you can do, and what you can't do. THEN you're informed enough to make a decision.

[Buck Forester]

Just don't stick your head in the sand and pretend there aren't any complications due to a rolling shutter, because there unquestionably are.


Hola, Barry! I'm not sticking my head in the sand and pretending there aren't any possible rolling shutter issues. Just the opposite. In fact it was from the few horror stories I've seen posted in a couple forums that made me really investigate it. What I have found through lots of research and watching footage is that it's over hyped. Yes, be aware of it, but some people make it seem much worse than it is. The 'restrictions' you mention to stay within are not THAT restricted from what I've seen. I guess you can call me a counterweight to the people who pretend the complications are much worse than they are. :Þ All in good nature... hey, they're just video cameras! They're all pretty darn good. Anyway, I'm not sure how just saying, "it ain't as bad as some make it seem" is sticking my head in the sand. Maybe there's middle ground here, maybe it's not as bad you make it seem, and I make it seem less an issue than it is. Ha! Rock-n-roll.

[Barry_Green]

I wasn't singling you out, I was making a general observation to all readers, so please don't think I was telling you that you were sticking your head in the sand! Sorry if it came off that way.

[Buck Forester]

No worries, I didn't take it that way on a "personal" level, we're just talking cameras here, I was just responding generally too, in terms of being a 'representative' of 'hi, panning with the EX1 isn't THAT bad". ha! But I wouldn't mind sticking my head in the sand if it was on a beach in, oh, say Tahiti.

[mico]

i just keep hearing horror stories about this baby but i don't know how many of them are relevant for real life use in narrative filmmaking and how many of them are people trying to show the theoretical limits of the camera in extreme situations.

will the ex-1 hold up in a chase sequence? a fight sequence in a boxing ring? a martial arts showdown?

or is it only incredible when philip bloom aligns the sun and stars for some breathtaking nature photography?

has anyone seen the ex1 results for situations that are realistic for narrative film but will create supposed challenges for the ex1 like fights and chases? are the fighters all bendy and wobbly and diagonal?

Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666

[chrisccw]

I do know about the EX1. I have two of them and I'm upgrading to the EX3 for multi-cam purposes (time code, gen lock). We shot lots of soccer footage, monkey cam style, and had no problems with the so-called rolling shutter phenomenon. I have to think people are using weird set ups to get that effect. These cameras are rock solid and there is no easier or more affordable way to get full HD images for your project.

[mico]

I found this video that has some narrative run and gun shot with the cmos HV20. Its unbelievably good. No 35mm adapter used, just an add on wide angle

http://www.vimeo.com/1053128?pg=embed&sec=1053128

[doofalot]

Hey kyledroid, check out lots of EX1 clips at Vimeo. Scroll through them, there are plenty of videos with panning and don't show skewing. I'd look at all the various clips you see as a whole and wouldn't put as much weight on the "I know a guy who saw someone post something on a forum", etc. There are thousands and thousands of these cameras producing amazing footage and people are posting great stuff online, even panning shots... now and then you'll see something extreme and people REALLY focus on those few examples. I've read if you really want to do a quick pan and make people dizzy, turn off the shutter. Hey, I'm just here to say look at all the evidence around you and you'll see great panning results with the EX1 too.

i've watched a lot of those very same clips.
i don't find the skew all that bad but some of the wobbliness, especially in the vertical plane is - - - kind of problematic. i even see it pop up in some otherwise professional and gorgeous shots clearly done by trained professionals.

and in pans at almost any speed other than 14 seconds to get across frame on these vimeo clips i tend to see worse stuttering than on other cameras - and i am trying to convince myself that i don't - and i am wondering if that is really due to the camera (theoretically it shouldn't be) or if it is due to some other workflow step in between image acquisition and uploading to vimeo.

[doofalot]

Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666

okay well thanks for running that test.
it definitely was disgusting and a giant turn off for rolling shutters but i am also aware that it was worst case in the sense of filming apparatus and technique and also an inferior camera.
but yeah that was pretty gross and i think the sony cmos department is probably hiring a hitman to take you out right now.

[Mattykins]

Then don't buy a CMOS camera?

But since you won't buy a CMOS, don't buy a RED either.

People bitch about the rolling shutter issues all the time. Because of a few clips online with insane whip pans, insane movement.

There are terrible images of the DVX online too, and HVX. Are there issues with the CMOS chip? Yep. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I've said before, I have an HV20 CMOS camera. And never had an issue with the rolling shutter. If you are looking for the god of all cameras, you aren't going to find it below the 10k line.

If you want a near perfect 3CCD camera, buy yourself an F23.

I don't understand why people ask about the cameras knowing full well they already hate the concept of an affordable HD camera. People have different opinions on the camera. Why do we constantly argue about it. If you don't like the concept of a CMOS cam, cool. If you do, cool as well.

There are many people shooting on the EX line and don't have issues. The small percentage that do rant about it on a daily basis. More rant about it without ever using the camera. By that account, no one would fly because a few planes a year go down.

Fact of the matter is, the perfect camera would not be found at the 10k or less price line. Don't like it, don't buy it.

[doofalot]

Then don't buy a CMOS camera?

But since you won't buy a CMOS, don't buy a RED either.

People bitch about the rolling shutter issues all the time. Because of a few clips online with insane whip pans, insane movement.

There are terrible images of the DVX online too, and HVX. Are there issues with the CMOS chip? Yep. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I've said before, I have an HV20 CMOS camera. And never had an issue with the rolling shutter. If you are looking for the god of all cameras, you aren't going to find it below the 10k line.

If you want a near perfect 3CCD camera, buy yourself an F23.

I don't understand why people ask about the cameras knowing full well they already hate the concept of an affordable HD camera. People have different opinions on the camera. Why do we constantly argue about it. If you don't like the concept of a CMOS cam, cool. If you do, cool as well.

There are many people shooting on the EX line and don't have issues. The small percentage that do rant about it on a daily basis. More rant about it without ever using the camera. By that account, no one would fly because a few planes a year go down.

Fact of the matter is, the perfect camera would not be found at the 10k or less price line. Don't like it, don't buy it.

yeah i guess. just trying to learn as much as i can about it and its practical applications without spending $1000 to do so. and maybe even help clarify things for others a little as i go through the process myself.

i seriously would love to see the great narrative ex1 footage you're referring to though. so far i have not seen much of it. one fellow did a great job with the short whose name eludes me right now - - pretends to have a date with a girl in the classifieds - - and it made the ex1 look great but there are other genres of filmmaking that will exacerbate the supposed ex1 problems to a greater extent and i am just trying to figure out as best i can if the ex1 can handle them.

i'd love to see some fantastic car-mounted ex1 footage.

i'd love to see some fantastic ex1 whip pans in narrative work as justified by the story.

i'd love to see some fantastic vertical pans at more than a crawl.

i'm not saying they don't exist. i'm not saying i hate cmos. i don't really even know enough firsthand to have a strong opinion. i'm not saying that people haven't achieved these great shots with the ex1. and the vast majority of what is available online may be biased and dedicated to exposing the flaws of the camera. but the fact is that so far i haven't found the great clips where the camera handles moderate situations to be readily abundant.

[doofalot]

here, for example, the EX1 seems to have held up somewhat well in a moving car run n' gun...
http://www.vimeo.com/899608
and i'm really only talking about the camera...

[doofalot]

Okay here is a test i performed, just for you. This isn't the Sony Ex1 but the consumer grade Canon HF10. It has a cmos chip so the results should be the worst for this kind of test.

Remeber this is 17mbs footage not 35mbs like the sony ex does.

This is over the top shakiness. I just put the strap around my hand, ran, walked and stopped whip panning the camera in any direction.

If anyone wants me too, next week I can do a test with a hand held stabilizer (not a steadicam) for more of a real world look at run and gun shooting with cmos cams. I just wanted to go to the extreme end of shakiness first and from there you might be able to base a judgement on.

Details of shooting and post are detailed on the linked page.


Warning: if you get sick watching real shakycam footage do not watch this.


http://www.vimeo.com/1187666

for what its worth i did learn some from your test and knowing your exact circumstances and what you did in post - if you do want to do the next step of your test - - the stabilizer - - i for one would watch it.

[doofalot]

of course philip bloom's (untitled) about the guy and the priest in the train station is also another nice piece of narrative work on the ex1 - - but again, while the photography is excellent, it did little to stretch the technical bounds of the camera.

[doofalot]

http://www.vimeo.com/user378308

and here is one of the better ex1 clips i have found for approximating a run n gun action scene... camera holds up ok...

[DCSensui]

There's an amazing amount of negative nit picking about this camera's rolling shutter.

I must be blind or dense. In all the shooting I've done, most of which was handheld, I haven't seen much objectionable footage. The only time it was a problem was when I tried doing a slo-mo with pixel motion turned on in After Effects.

For the most part, I'm seeing great dynamic range, good color and a lot of detail. And a codec that seems to handle anything it encounters.

My only gripe is the lack of a pre-record cache.

That, and the control markings that seem to rub off easily.

[doofalot]

http://www.vimeo.com/792126

and this guy actually does do action narrative stuff for this teaser.

the car wheel shot at 1:45 looks like some jello cam, but the action afterward holds up a bit better.

[doofalot]

There's an amazing amount of negative nit picking about this camera's rolling shutter.

I must be blind or dense. In all the shooting I've done, most of which was handheld, I haven't seen much objectionable footage. The only time it was a problem was when I tried doing a slo-mo with pixel motion turned on in After Effects.

For the most part, I'm seeing great dynamic range, good color and a lot of detail. And a codec that seems to handle anything it encounters.

My only gripe is the lack of a pre-record cache.

That, and the control markings that seem to rub off easily.

awesome man, im glad to see people having positive experiences. i'd love to check out some of your stuff if youre willing to pass on a link. the camera is still pretty new so there really isnt the public library of narrative work out there that exists for the hvx.

[kubalsky]

yeah i guess. just trying to learn as much as i can about it and its practical applications without spending $1000 to do so. and maybe even help clarify things for others a little as i go through the process myself.

i seriously would love to see the great narrative ex1 footage you're referring to though. so far i have not seen much of it. one fellow did a great job with the short whose name eludes me right now - - pretends to have a date with a girl in the classifieds - - and it made the ex1 look great but there are other genres of filmmaking that will exacerbate the supposed ex1 problems to a greater extent and i am just trying to figure out as best i can if the ex1 can handle them.

i'd love to see some fantastic car-mounted ex1 footage.

i'd love to see some fantastic ex1 whip pans in narrative work as justified by the story.

i'd love to see some fantastic vertical pans at more than a crawl.

i'm not saying they don't exist. i'm not saying i hate cmos. i don't really even know enough firsthand to have a strong opinion. i'm not saying that people haven't achieved these great shots with the ex1. and the vast majority of what is available online may be biased and dedicated to exposing the flaws of the camera. but the fact is that so far i haven't found the great clips where the camera handles moderate situations to be readily abundant.

I've shot vehicle mounted footage with the EX1 out the sunroof of a van going 100kph at night and it looks amazing. Im sure if I had zoomed into the freeway side railing It would have had some skew but hey. I dont have time to post footage because I, like alot of EX1 owners are too busy getting out there and shooting cool stiuff at the moment. BUY THE CAMERA!

[doofalot]

http://www.vimeo.com/824568

some pretty fast whip pans in here with reasonable results

[DCSensui]

Check this out.

http://hawaiigoesfishing.com/videos/papio_tag_1_cc.mov

All handheld and on a boat.

[doofalot]

Check this out.

http://hawaiigoesfishing.com/videos/papio_tag_1_cc.mov

All handheld and on a boat.

cool, definitely a bit of visible jellocam but not horrific under the circumstances.

and the camera was pretty steady, i'm assuming at least a shoulder mount.

[DCSensui]

cool, definitely a bit of visible jellocam but not horrific under the circumstances.

and the camera was pretty steady, i'm assuming at least a shoulder mount.

If you ask 500 people who saw that segment here what they noticed, and they'll comment about letting go legal-sized fish. Press them about "jello cam" and they wouldn't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Shake is annoying, whether there's a rolling shutter or not. So don't shake the camera. Even in the days of Super 8 movies an unstable camera was guaranteed to lose an audience. Half a century later and with all our technical leaps and bounds, a wobbly camera is STILL death to good programming.

I use a shoulder mount. Even when I was shooting with a Sony PD-170 or Panasonic HVX-200 I used a shoulder mount. No matter what you shoot with, you need to have the camera as stable as practically possible.

It's all about content. Not about a microscopic frame-by-frame analysis to pick apart a given weakness. Frankly, I don't see jello-cam. I'm more concerned with getting a story across, getting good exposures and color, and capturing good audio.

[doofalot]

If you ask 500 people who saw that segment here what they noticed, and they'll comment about letting go legal-sized fish. Press them about "jello cam" and they wouldn't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Shake is annoying, whether there's a rolling shutter or not. So don't shake the camera. Even in the days of Super 8 movies an unstable camera was guaranteed to lose an audience. Half a century later and with all our technical leaps and bounds, a wobbly camera is STILL death to good programming.

I use a shoulder mount. Even when I was shooting with a Sony PD-170 or Panasonic HVX-200 I used a shoulder mount. No matter what you shoot with, you need to have the camera as stable as practically possible.

It's all about content. Not about a microscopic frame-by-frame analysis to pick apart a given weakness. Frankly, I don't see jello-cam. I'm more concerned with getting a story across, getting good exposures and color, and capturing good audio.

i won't disagree with much of what you're saying. everyone on these boards - myself included - obsesses about minutia that tv and movie viewers couldn't care less about in theory. i mean the blair witch made 100M.

but it is the things we obsess about that makes real movies what they are when you add them all up.

and i won't disagree for a second that good audio, color, shot composition and exposure are essential, as is good acting and steady camera motion.

but i think jellocam is as valid a concern as any other, since to me, having your lead actor's face oddly stretched out for a half second is probably equivalent to the audience of having him deliver a single word unnaturally. both 'break the spell'.

but yeah all your points are valid.

[jls4]

myself included - obsesses about minutia that tv and movie viewers couldn't care less about in theory. i mean the blair witch made 100M.

but it is the things we obsess about that makes real movies what they are when you add them all up.

...

but i think jellocam is as valid a concern as any other


I agree.:laugh:

But hollywood studios do Not tend to stretch the limits of a camera, which is basically what we are taking about. They'll create a new camera to do what they want it to do before they try to push a new cam to the limits. But new technologies are just that. The first time I saw Toy Story I felt weird, too much was in focus and super sharp, by Toy Story 2 Pixar had fixed the problem.

What I encouage is for people to not try and push the EX1 to it's limits. Instead, use it for all the cool shots it can do well. And get some friends, ones that you can borrow their HDV Sony or Canon Cameras and use on fast motion. That way no weirdness and there will be little worry about sharpness because when you're moving fast you can't really tell that much anyway. So the 1440x1080 / 1440x520 (frame mode) should be fine, cutting with 1920x1080 because the 1440x1080 is moving so quick the human eye can't focus on the sharpness. But when the human eye has time to focus, then move to the Ex1s sharp image.

Hollywood works around their own limits and tries to find ways (with money) to fix the problems. As a Shoebox Indie, you have to make some pacts with people and get what you can get. But while you're doing it, don't forget the $35K or more you need to spend on good Audio, Grip and Lighting Equipment. Or your super cool, steady, no jelly camera work is still going to look like crap and no one is going to watch your movie.:Drogar-SunGlass(DBG

[Jon Neely]

wont the Scarlet exhibit the same CMOS traits and "problems"

Jon

[doofalot]

wont the Scarlet exhibit the same CMOS traits and "problems"

Jon

presumably so, especially if the red one is showing cmos artifacts, which it does - - though apparently not to the extent of the ex1.

[Lenilenapi]

Every test I've seen shows the artifacting of the Red to be pretty much the same as the Ex-1.

[doofalot]

Every test I've seen shows the artifacting of the Red to be pretty much the same as the Ex-1.

yeah, i guess you just don't see the red put in as many of the same situations as the EX1 that cause brutal artifacting due to its size, plus it will hardly ever be in the hands of an amateur.

[Barry_Green]

yeah, i guess you just don't see the red put in as many of the same situations as the EX1 that cause brutal artifacting due to its size, plus it will hardly ever be in the hands of an amateur.
Exactly.

[Kholi]

i won't disagree with much of what you're saying. everyone on these boards - myself included - obsesses about minutia that tv and movie viewers couldn't care less about in theory. i mean the blair witch made 100M.

but it is the things we obsess about that makes real movies what they are when you add them all up.

and i won't disagree for a second that good audio, color, shot composition and exposure are essential, as is good acting and steady camera motion.

but i think jellocam is as valid a concern as any other, since to me, having your lead actor's face oddly stretched out for a half second is probably equivalent to the audience of having him deliver a single word unnaturally. both 'break the spell'.

but yeah all your points are valid.

Mighty intelligent points you make here, sir.

[Buck Forester]

since to me, having your lead actor's face oddly stretched out for a half second is probably equivalent to the audience of having him deliver a single word unnaturally. both 'break the spell'.



True dat... but I must say... if you're shooting any camera in such a way (CMOS or CCD or film) commercially that an actor's face is oddly stretched, or if your audio is recorded bad as to deliver a noticeably unnatural word, then you're not shooting and recording properly to begin with.

I guess I'm assuming too much... this is a professional camera... I opened my new EX1 box today and on the manual it says "Sony Broadcast and Professional Products" on the top. I think that maybe because it's priced so low relative to other professional cameras that you have a lot of people upgrading from smaller min-DV camcorders which are DESIGNED to be shot with utmost simplicity because people are wanting to simply point and shoot and get 'good' footage without learning about aperture/shutter speeds, zebras, giraffes, DOF, ND filters, GND filters, tripods, stabilizers, etc., etc. I'm just assuming if you're buying this caliber of a camera you're gonna know not to shoot in such a way as to make a lead actor's face get oddly stretched. And if for some reason you did, you immediately review your scenes and if something didn't go as planned you reshoot. Even the best of the best of directors sometimes have to retake shots, and they have the best equipment and most skilled people at their disposal. That's where I'm coming from which is why I think the rolling shutter issue is way over hyped.

[Barry_Green]

Buck, listen -- it may say "Sony Broadcast and Professional Products" on it, but that's no guarantee of any immunity from problems. Look at what the early adopters endured: vignetting, backfocus issues, chunks of crud in the lens, paint peeling off, batteries draining dry overnight, the right half of the frame going out of focus when you zoom all the way in, and infrared sensitivity that turns black objects brown. Do you expect any of those problems when you buy something from "Sony Broadcast and Professional Products"?

No?

Well, you got 'em anyway.

So -- again, use the product for what it DOES. Not for what you think it's "supposed" to do, not because of any blind faith in who made it and "they wouldn't do that to me" or whatever. Use it as it is, for what it does. And if it doesn't work out in the scenarios you need, recognize you got the wrong product and move on.

The EX1 can make some fantastic, razor-sharp images. And the EX1 (and ALL rolling-shutter cameras) can prove to be troubled by shooting scenarios that CCD cameras aren't. Learn what those scenarios are, and avoid them. It really is that simple.

[Buck Forester]

Barry, when I say it's from Sony' Professional line, I'm saying that in terms of the kind of people who will purchase the product, not whether the product is "perfect" or not. I'm talking in terms of user skill levels. I don't think Sony's target market is the same for this camera compared to someone upgrading from their Sony Digital 8 camcorder for recording their kid's 4th birthday party. So I'm speaking under the assumption that those who buy this camera know how to 'shoot good footage' commercially speaking, or at leasst (in my case) are willing to learn it at that level (I'm hoping to apply my current photo knowledge to video although I know there's lots of differences).

Whether Sony makes a crappy or flawed 'pro' camera is a different discussion. I'm not a Sony apologist. I don't know anyone with "blind faith" in Sony, do you? Maybe you do. I dunno. If Sony has production problems with a professional camera, I'd expect them to fix them... if not, they'd lose serious business because people are investing a lot of moolah in their gear. Maybe they did lose customers over flawed first production runs, I don't know nor do I really care. But if someone knows how to shoot professionally, they'll get professional footage from this camera, that's all I'm saying. The only situation I'd be concerned about would be if I were using this primarily for videoing situations with 'continuous' flash for a substantial part of my commercial footage, I'd look for a different camera.

And the EX1 (and ALL rolling-shutter cameras) can prove to be troubled by shooting scenarios that CCD cameras aren't. Learn what those scenarios are, and avoid them. It really is that simple.

Yes, and the same with CCD having its troubles too. Barry, this seems to be an obvious statement. What we seem to be goin' 'round and round about is you continually pointing out that the rolling shutter is more limiting than it really is, and I'm saying it's not. And you're saying it is, and I'm saying it's not. And your'e saying it is, and I'm saying it's not... AHHHHhhhhhhhh... ha ha! People are shooting pans with this camera all over the place with fine results... look at the testimonials and footage. Yes, if you shoot crappy shakey footage (or intentional insane whips) you'll have a problem, no doubt. If you shoot what is commercially viable for the masses, I don't think you'll have a serious problem.

[Barry_Green]

Okay, I see where you're coming from, and yes, one would hope that those folks to whom the product is marketed would be more professional about how they approach a shoot. Good point.

I don't know anyone with "blind faith" in Sony, do you?
Er, no. That would definitely be a great big fat NO. :thumbsup:

But if someone knows how to shoot professionally, they'll get professional footage from this camera, that's all I'm saying.
And that's where the problem comes in, and why I continually harp on this issue. People who have been shooting professionally have been shooting on CCDs for the last decade or two. They have not been shooting on a rolling shutter camera and in all likelihood DON'T know what the potential issues are. They could be one of the most seasoned professionals in the world, but if they pull out an EX1 and light their scene with a magnetic HMI, they're pooched. POOCHED. And if someone doesn't tell them that there's a problem, how will they know until it's too late? If they're coming from a film background they may be thinking that similar rules apply (especially when people tell them "oh, the rolling shutter's just like film.") NO IT ISN'T. And on film, shooting 24fps is "HMI-SAFE". On a rolling shutter camera, it isn't. You have to change your shutter speed to 1/40th or 1/60th.

Professionals have been shooting under fluorescents for years with no problems. So how do you explain to them that all of a sudden, in the same scenario they've always used, now there's big rippling bands going through their video? It's different in the rolling shutter world. If the shooter doesn't know that, they'll end up hosed sooner or later.

So I continue to try to point out the differences. Some people take the warnings as they're intended, and open their eyes and look at the situation and prepare themselves. Some ignore it and say "it's all overblown." And some panic and think the rolling shutter means the end of the world as we know it. I'm just trying to explain to people that there are different things they need to be aware of, and certain shooting scenarios where they'd be better off choosing something other than a rolling shutter.

In any case, good luck with your new EX1, I hope you have fantastic success with it!

[Mattykins]

The only blind faith I have in SONY is with the CineAlta line. But you get what you pay for. :)

But then again, that blind faith is based on trying out those cameras...haha, so it isn't bling. More so just faith.

[Buck Forester]

In any case, good luck with your new EX1, I hope you have fantastic success with it!

Gracias, me too! And my wife is demanding I have success with it after all this $$ I'm investing in this stuff! Ha!

I see your point too, Barry, but again I just have a different perception of the pro market (and admittedly you're a pro in the truest sense of the word and I'm just learning). But common sense tells me it can't be THAT different from the still camera world. I'm a semi-pro still photographer. My wife won't let me quit my day job, ha ha! I would be a full time still photographer right now if I weren't married with a kid and another on the way (another kid, not wife).

In the still camera world it's primarily Canon vs Nikon... and there's a lot of good-natured jesting. It seems in the video world, from what I've gathered so far, it's primarily Sony vs Panasonic (with some Canon and JVC thrown in... oh, and RED blazing the horizon). In this new video world of mine, I'm seeing a lot more brand loyalty and people taking their brand pretty darn serious. Although it might not look like it, I have no brand loyalty... yet. I got excited about going into video with the intent of buying a Panny HVX200 and that was my choice, until the EX1 was announced. I wished Panny had come out with an answer to the EX1 at NAB, I was waiting to see what they did. Nothing. I'm also very excited about the Scarlet from RED because I shoot a lot of RAW still photos and I know the flexibility of RAW in post. Unless things change, which they probably will because I doubt the big boys will be idle, a Scarlet purchase is on the horizon.

But back to my point, which is probably weak, but still. I'm pretty active in the "pro" still market in terms of knowing what's going on in the industry. I know Canon dominates the digital market with their CMOS chips, both high-end and low-end and mid-end. Nikon was always CCD, and now they use some CMOS on their high-end stuff too. A pro knows the various lenses, their sharpness, their reviews from comrades, which ones are good, which ones are bad... which cameras have certain features and which don't... metering options, speed of the camera, ISO ranges, etc. Someone upgrading from a point-n-shoot often doesn't not know this techy stuff, but the pros do. They read the trade journals, go to trade shows, read reviews, forums, associations, etc., etc. They're pretty well informed about what does what.

It just seems you're implying with your statements like People who have been shooting professionally have been shooting on CCDs for the last decade or two. They have not been shooting on a rolling shutter camera and in all likelihood DON'T know what the potential issues are. that a seasoned professional has no clue about the differences between CMOS and CCD? And would ignorantly invest $6,500 on an EX1 (and much more with all the added stuff) and not know the pros and cons of CMOS vs CCD? CCD has its limitations too, I'm sure they know them. CMOS has its limitations, I'm sure they know them. If they're professionals you'd think they'd be 'up' on all this stuff, it's pretty much big news about CMOS chips and their effect on the market. I've only been studying video for a few months and I know which cameras, from the prosumer to the really high-end stuff, shoot which format on which chips, etc. I would think someone who has been in the industry for years doing this for a living would know this too.

Which goes back to my point... a professional videographer can use the EX1 to get fantastic images and the rolling shutter issues should not be a serious issue on properly shot footage. They know better. That's not to say the EX1 is flawless and was descended from heaven in a golden box to save the world from bad video. We'll save that title for the Panasonic EX2. :Þ

[Buck Forester]

Actually, I guess there really is a Panasonic EX2. :)

http://www.skycontrol.net/industry/panasonic-avionics-corporation-to-supply-aeroflot-with-ex2-on-a330-aircraft/

"In this relation Panasonic eX2 is the best choice,” said Alexey Sidorov, Commercial Director at Aeroflot."

[DREWjoseph82]

It just seems you're implying with your statements like that a seasoned professional has no clue about the differences between CMOS and CCD? And would ignorantly invest $6,500 on an EX1 (and much more with all the added stuff) and not know the pros and cons of CMOS vs CCD? CCD has its limitations too, I'm sure they know them. CMOS has its limitations, I'm sure they know them. If they're professionals you'd think they'd be 'up' on all this stuff, it's pretty much big news about CMOS chips and their effect on the market.
Barry is only helping people - especially the "non professionals" - to learn those differences so they dont find themselves in bad situations. So I dont really see the problem with what he is stating because it is certainly informative.

I would even venture to say that some of your video knowledge came from posts on this board, maybe even from Barry.

[Lenilenapi]

Barry is 100% right .
I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".
Barry more than anyone else here has been providing important information for all of us.
Speaking of which - Barry where is that tech article you wrote describing the rolling shutter? I wamnt to turn my friend on to it.

- Lenny Levy

[doofalot]

Barry is 100% right .
I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".
Barry more than anyone else here has been providing important information for all of us.
Speaking of which - Barry where is that tech article you wrote describing the rolling shutter? I wamnt to turn my friend on to it.

- Lenny Levy

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

[doofalot]

for what it's worth, i do know some pros and film school grads in the film and video industry who are excited as hell about the new ex1 and gave me the deer in the headlights look when i asked them if they had found any rolling shutter problems with the camera.

anyway, i agree 100% that barry is informing and helping people with his posts. but i also don't think buck has been out of line by having a conflicting opinion.

my opinion may not carry a ton of weight in the industry but i see a fair amount of common ground between them and agree with both on most points.

with respect to buck, though, i do consider a very fast pan (to the point that would induce cmos artifacts based on what i have seen) to be a legitimate filming move and not amateur misuse of a camera. but it may be that a vibration free, well executed pan won't be a big problem for the ex1 other than some skew or stretching that may not be an issue for the viewer.

[doofalot]

Mighty intelligent points you make here, sir.

thanks, we need more positive vibes in these forums whenever ex1 vs hvx comes up!

[Mattykins]

thanks, we need more positive vibes in these forums whenever ex1 vs hvx comes up!

Herein lies the problem. People make post after post after post after post to talk about it. And mostly it is HVX elitists who jump in and slam the other cameras for small issues regarding the main tech behind the camera. If you type in rolling shutter this is discussed in detail. This is easily the third topic this week alone to deal with the issue.

I don't know how many more times anyone can say this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't get confused and think you will get the god of all cameras for less than 10k. Every system you buy pre 10k will have some issue. Wether it be the rolling shutter, the LCD screen, the low light performance, a poorly placed control, there is always going to be something that people find to bitch about.

You want to avoid the issue, buy a CCD camera, don't like the P2 cards? Buy the DVX, don't like the poor low light stuff, buy the HVX200A, Like the CMOS, buy the HV20, too cheap for you, buy the EX1, want to jam timecodes, buy the EX3, want to ramp frame rates, go with a varicam, want the digital end of stuff? By the F900, want more dynamic range, go with the F23, upset you can't get the 35mm DOF with the 2/3 camera? Go with the HVX and 35mm adapter and save a ton of money, still like the cinema end of a camera, go with an F35...oops, we just spent half a million dollars on a camera system. But there is hardly anything you can find to rant about with that bugger, the price and maybe the weight.

There are so many directions you can go, like I said, every camera has an issue. Even the glorious RED camera does. (which I forgot to mention in my flow chart above).

Simple, don't like the camera, don't buy it. Or at least try one out yourself rather than rant about it and see if you can get an image you like.

[Buck Forester]

Barry is only helping people - especially the "non professionals" - to learn those differences so they dont find themselves in bad situations. So I dont really see the problem with what he is stating because it is certainly informative.

For the record, I'm not dissin' Barry at all so I hope no one is taking it that way.

I'm just saying, as many others here are too, that the rolling shutter issue is not as bad as he makes it seem. Opinion vs opinion. It's cool. No disrespect. I feel VERY confident in my position because I see it done properly with good results, so I have no doubts. I think Barry and I agree, there's the potential of rolling shutter with CMOS, and there's issues with CCD too, he just seems to reeeeeeally emphasize it as something very problematic... and I'm simply saying I've seen lots of pans that are fine. That's all.

I have a friend who is a very experienced pro over 20 years experience with a good tech background who now owns an Ex-1. In a recent conversation he said - "what's a rolling shutter".

Seriously, CMOS is no secret... any single magazine or trade journal you've picked up for the last coupla years, or forum you've visited, will talk about CMOS. Not sure how a seasoned professional in the business for many years could not know about it or the potential rolling shutter issue? Or maybe your friend who has been in the industry for 20 years and now has an EX1 and doesn't know what rolling shutter is... hasn't experienced it on his EX1? That's always a possibility.

with respect to buck, though, i do consider a very fast pan (to the point that would induce cmos artifacts based on what i have seen) to be a legitimate filming move and not amateur misuse of a camera.

That's fine... I don't make the rules or anything... it's just a general rule for good video/film. But rules are made to be broken I guess. I just know I find fast pans unwatchable. Even long and steady film pans on the big screen that aren't skewed but just give that juttery feeling (shot on high end film cameras) makes me dizzy. I can't even think of any fast pans I've seen in the last 20 movies I've rented. Whip pans is just a non-issue for me, but if you're into fast pans, I have no issues with that, to each his own. And I'd say the EX1 wouldn't definitely not be for you. No harm no foul.

[Buck Forester]

(http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/)http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/ (http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/)

See, even in this article, it states:

"But the stretching, skewing, scrunching and leaning are endemic to the nature of the rolling shutter. To eliminate wobble you would need to either a) eliminate all motion, or b) use a global shutter system. Since neither of these are practical options for a video camera using a CMOS sensor, you will have to determine if the amount of wobbling that happens in video is acceptable to you."

This is an over reaction. To eliminate wobble you need to "eliminate ALL motion"? You mean if you simply handhold the EX1 and carefully point it at your dog, you're gonna get some degree of wobble? Hardly. It then goes on to say you have to determine how much wobble you can live with. This is an absurd assumption to imply that any kind of motion whatsoever will induce a wobbling effect. The camera would be a joke then. And for people coming to the board for information on the EX1 and then read that with CMOS chips any kind of motion whatsoever will wobble the image is extreeeeeemely misleading. Just because it may wobble if you vibrate the camera or shake it while filming doesn't mean it will wobble if you're merely holding it in your hand with some motion.

[Jon Neely]

wow, well CCDs have somthing i dont like, 80's stars of lights in the dark.... CMOs dont, wha ha!

Jon

[hantanbl]

people in this forum will only stop complaining about SONY's CMOS rolling shutter when Pana roll out their next generation camera which use CMOS chips. :evil:

Who knows??? The world is round. Anything can happen.

[Buck Forester]

Ahhh, but they have! http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Makes-Major-Upgrades-with-New-HDC-HS100-and-HDC-SD100-Camcorders-35263.htm# From my experiences watching these industries, the companies often put the latest stuff on their lower/mid range models and see how the market receives it and eventually they'll integrate it through their range of offerings.

"For the first time, Panasonic will feature a three-CMOS imaging system, which is reported to increase sensitivity in low light. Both are expected to become available in September 2008."

[Tim Naylor]

Gracias, me too! And my wife is demanding I have success with it after all this $$ I'm investing in this stuff! Ha!

I see your point too, Barry, but again I just have a different perception of the pro market (and admittedly you're a pro in the truest sense of the word and I'm just learning). But common sense tells me it can't be THAT different from the still camera world. :Þ


I think you may have a misconception of video pros. I've never been a still photographer but have been making a living with film and video cameras for quite some time and to be honest most pros don't have any brand loyalty. We tend to gravitate to whatever gets the job done best or in some cases whatever the client wants it shot on. For instance in the still world often the client won't specify what camera you must shoot on, as where in video, they'll tell you it's a varicam or an F 900 job or a Red Job. Often times with a feature, we have more input and influence on the camera, but when I shoot broadcast, you shoot on whatever the shows spec sheet says and often at the settings established long ago. I have shoot in Philly on monday, I don't even know what the camera is yet, but as soon as I find out, I guarantee it, I'll know it.

Most pros take the attitude that all cameras are more or less the same to operate and it's your job to know how to use them. Most never want to be known as the "EX3 guy" or the "HVX guy" or the "Varicam Guy". When someone calls me about a job and asks me if I know this camera or that, I always say yes. Because, by the time the gig comes up, I'll know the camera inside and out - that's part of my job. I couldn't care less if it's Sony or Panasonic as long as it's suited to the gig. That's why many pros constantly research what's the best gear at the moment. As far as someone not knowing about a rolling shutter, well sadly enough it's true. I find DP's who come more from Gaffing backgrounds don't research cameras like those of us who came up through camera.

Granted each brand has its looks and features but whenever there's a groundbreaking feature, we drop what we're using in droves. I'm sure many on this board were once devout PD 150 believers and believed it could do no wrong until the DVX came along. But when the feature sets in the pro/con columns are competitive then you get folks talking getting in a pissing match over their gear. I do believe folks objectivity gets further clouded after they buy gear. How do you tell someone their camera sucks after they dumped 10g into it.

Anyway, I started back in the day when most pro jobs (at least in the fiction world) were rarely done by owner/operators but with rented gear. So brand loyalty was the brand that made you look good. One year it was Cooke, the next Tilt and Shift, the next Master Primes, Etc. Now you can get broadcast results for a fraction of what it used to be so you got several times more owner/ops out there than before. Hell even the varicam is half its intro price.

But I think the sense of brand loyalty and rabid fanboyism comes from those on this site who are not quite seasoned pros but put their life savings into one camera package. You see that alot in the post world where people have invested six figures into an Avid Meridian only to have someone's 20g system a year later run circles around it. Yet they'll still defend their Avid to the grave. But those days are numbered.

I hope they begin to see their cameras more like tools and currency than a old dog named Yeller. And I think it's beginning to happen more as I see alot of action in the market place, people selling and upgrading (regardless of brand). The EX1 has switched quite few people over from the Panny market and sure once Panny counters they'll return. And so it goes on. But in the end, with the pressure from Red and other developers, I think the big two can't keep parcelling out a feature here and a feature there if they hope to compete down the road.

I think it's embarrassing that you'll have to add an external box(convergent design) to record 160mb to your EX1 to record to off the shelf CF cards. It shows the tech is there for a cheaper and better idea. That CF box should be in the camera. It's this parcelling out of tech that I find so heinous with the big two that I never experienced back when it was all film. If someone had an edge be it Arri, Panavision, Aaton, Fuji or Kodak, they came out with all they had. Panny or Sony could design a CF card camera that records 10 bit tomorrow. Yet they choose to drip their know how. And it's this business philosophy that makes me loyal to none.

I think the best bit of tech development is what's happening with the low cost adaptor world. I've bought and sold four in the last year because they just keep on whipping each other's asses every month. Sure I've incurred shipping costs but I can rest assured I'm getting the best they can do.

Anyway back on topic. I finally got to test an EX1. I love it. More than my HVX. There, I said it. It has its limitations as we all know but for most of what I do its image just kicks my HVX's butt upside in just about every respect. And the lens - fuggeddaboutit. So much for loyalty. I'll still keep my HVX because virtually nobody is asking for the EX1 in NYC. That'll change in time. So come July, I'm putting my money down on an EX 3. And who knows what'll sell and buy come Fall.

[Mattykins]

Tim,

It's good to hear someone who understands the concept of brand loyalty (or lack thereof)

I, like you, use whatever is suited for the job. I own an HV20 and that's it. Everything else I rent. I keep wanting to buy an HVX but at the same time I don't want to drop that money in exchange for a week and change with a Panavision.

I've shot film for a while. Bolex, Aaton LTR, Aaton XTR prod. I'm actually going down to BandPro in NYC sometime this summer to have a demo with the F23. Been with an F900 and loved it.

I've been with the EX1, a DVX, and HVX, some prosumer by canon. Never with a Red yet, but I might hire one rather than an F23 because it has the 35mm chip and I don't need to worry about the Pro35 adapter.

The market is ever-changing. RED stepped it up with the 4k. And people are answering. Sony, since their breakup with Panavision is releasing the F35, which I will be demoing as soon as it get released. I get excited every time I get a call from BandPro. And Cinealta has a 4K in the works. The F35 is the ownable version of the Genesis.

Dalsa has a great 35mm camera as well. The thompson viper cam is excellent but has an odd greenish tinge to the footage. The F23 is amazing in low light and has a superb dynamic range. Something the F35 will not be that amazing with. But there is an inherent difference between the CCD cam and a one chip 35mm.

You can't forget about Arri as well. Can't remember their little cam though.

Brands change as it goes. Like Tim said, use the camera that gets the job done. Now I wouldn't even consider using a DVX now that more and more projects require VFX to be done. And generally HD is the way to go.

Right now I need to look into the RED or an F35 to rent for a shoot. Depending on what camera does what I need it to do and what I like better. The EX3 with a relay (as soon as that comes out) might be an option as well. Cross that bridge when we get to it.

Really I find it kinda strange to buy cameras that change so fast. The only actual purchases I have been getting quotes on has been on the F23, the Red, and the F35. Red is ever-changing. But the CineAlta flagships only change every few years. But that is a totally different market than those who would buy and HVX.

Elitism really gets you no where when you move into the big leagues. Or are even just shooting your own stuff. With dozens of things to choose from, it sometimes just depends on the job. Which is why I own an HV20. Does everything I need it to do. And when I have a large project, I rent exactly what I need.

[Tim Naylor]

What I love about these prosumer cameras is when I sell it, I don't lose much compared to my original purchase price. With adaptors, I get about 90 percent back! Lenses, if I take care of them 80-90 percent back. I tested the waters on Craiglist and I got so many people wanting to march over with cash to pay 4G for my beat up (but still working HVX). For me considering the kit rentals and mileage I've gotten it is a great deal. So camera churn on that level doesn't bother me much. But those returns don't hold so much for high end cameras and I don't want to get stuck pimping the wrong tool for the gig just to pay the note. So once it gets to 2/3" or above I'm still renting. I'd only consider buying if I land a long term series contract that will give me the kit rental.

But the EX3, Ultimate and Relay lens, I feel is just the right combo that'll fill that niche for indies who want to get bang for the buck. It'll meet the needs of clients below the RED threshold but need something cinematic.

Now what I really want to see is someone invent is 35mm lens mount with a chip on the back, that you can attach a CF BOX to and switch out a different one when it gets dated. A dockable system.

[Mattykins]

It's quite true. I just wouldn't use a prosumer enough to justify the purchase of one. The good news with getting a pro package is that you can rent it well. Especially if you cut a deal with a rental house. But there are so many REDs on the market that isn't likely to happen. But with large rigs, you can work out deals nicely. But then again, those are huge investments.

(End thread Jack)

[Buck Forester]

Tim Naylor, thank you for the thoughtful post. After reading your post I'm sure I have a misconception about 'pro' brand loyalties. I think it is more so as you say, it's the non-seasoned guys who become rabid fanboys and defend their gear (and purchase). I have just seen it so much on these forums that I'm sorta blown away and assumed it must be universal to the industry. I'm glad to know my perception was wrong. I have always been a believer that it's not a brand or single piece of equipment, it's learning the trade and your equipment to make the best. I think anyone with the desire and knowledge can randomly pick any of these cameras and make magic, despite any limiting traits of the individual cameras.

[kubalsky]

Barry,

How did you come to the decision to buy a RED camera when it has a CMOS chip?

[Ryan Harrell]

Im not a fan of the EX1, we shot all weekend long...Your basic product w/ talent in the background shots. I see noise in the footage even when there was enough light to go negative gain.

I didn't have any issues with the shutter or sensors, just the noise in the footage got to me.

[doofalot]

Im not a fan of the EX1, we shot all weekend long...Your basic product w/ talent in the background shots. I see noise in the footage even when there was enough light to go negative gain.

I didn't have any issues with the shutter or sensors, just the noise in the footage got to me.

that is an interesting complaint about the ex1, i don't think i've come across anyone yet that was happy with the shutter but unhappy with the light sensitivity

[Barry_Green]

Barry,

How did you come to the decision to buy a RED camera when it has a CMOS chip?
For many reasons, not the least of which is that it was the most affordable 35mm cine-style camera out there.

Second, as may be evident at this point, I studied the daylights out of the rolling shutter issue to the point where I think I understand every possible compromise that can come into play.

Third, the Red One, being a heavy/bulky pro camera, is not going to be subject to many of the types of circumstances that cause the issue. It's so heavy that it inherently counteracts the vibration issue. It does skew, and it does suffer from magnetic HMI/fluo problems. But since the Red is entirely a cinema camera, I could control what circumstances it got used in and could prepare for those eventualities.

The Red is not my first CMOS camera, I previously bought an HV20. CMOS has its merits, it has many merits. But it also has its flaws.

I got rid of the HV20 for many reasons, one of which was that I found the rolling shutter completely unusable in many scenarios that I would have wanted to use the HV20 in. The HV20 being a light/compact handheld camera that would be shooting anywhere and everywhere, the rolling shutter made it problematic.

The Red, on the other hand, is not a light/compact handheld camera. It was designed to be used in specifically controlled environments.

See, contrary to what some people seem to want to think, I have already bought into (and sold out of) the rolling shutter thing. I'm not some pundit poking from the sidelines, I delved into it, I jumped into it with both feet, and I jumped back out of the pot.

The EX1 I find bothersome because it's small enough that people are encountering the issues, and as many people have pointed out, you DON'T necessarily know of those issues before getting into it.

So, I keep saying -- if you know what you're getting into, you're empowered to make the decision about whether it's the right product for you. If you don't know, and you're going in based on the assumption that "hey, a pro camera is a pro camera," then sooner or later you're going to end up pooched. I'd rather have people know in advance what could happen, and have them prepared for it, than have them come on here later saying "what the bleep happened to my footage?"

I guess some people don't like that. I don't apologize.

[moldcad]

With all due respect, Barry - you're being so enormously biased against the EX1, that I find it hard to believe you don't have your own agenda in it (guess which).

Below $15,000 there is no single camera that could even be compared with the XDCAM-EX. POINT.

[rrrobb]

Barry, you could always add some weights to the ex1 and pretend it's a heavy cam. I really don't see your point here.

[Buck Forester]

If you don't know, and you're going in based on the assumption that "hey, a pro camera is a pro camera," then sooner or later you're going to end up pooched.


I seriously doubt any pro would ever go, "hey, it's a pro camera so it'll shoot whatever I want, whenever I want". A "pro" wouldn't think like that. A pro knows a camera's capabilities in every regard... lens being used (especially if it's a fixed lens), how it does in low light, the media it records to, editing power required, what type of chip(s) is in the camera, industry reviews, pros and cons, etc. Wouldn't it be a fair assumption that a professional purchasing a camera does some research on the camera? And wouldn't go, "this is a pro level camera, it must be exactly what I want".

Barry, we get it loud and clear that you 'personally' don't like CMOS chips, and you are no fan of the EX1. That's 'personal' for you. Many professionals differ greatly with you... I've read many many reviews from professionals who rave about this camera. I've seen tons of footage that flys in the face of what you're saying about rolling shutter. You clearly make it seem that any motion will cause wobble and it's a matter of your tolerance for wobble. That is not the case. I know that to be fact, I own the darn camera and I've handheld it and I have yet to see any rolling shutter. I have no idea how you explain that away to me. As someone just said above, it's such an absurd statement that it 'appears' you have some sort of agenda. I'm just concerned that people looking for honest information about the EX1 will by mislead by your unfounded hype against rolling shutter... which DOES exist (lest you say I'm saying it never can happen), but it's not even close to the extreme as you portray it. I keep thinking when I read your posts that you are misunderstanding the position of those saying it's not so bad, but then you word things in a way that makes it seem more deliberate. We get it... you don't like the camera! Lots of people do. Next.

[Barry_Green]

Whatever. I hope everyone loves their EX1 and gets fantastic results from it.

[Buck Forester]

You can't get away from this discussion that easily... you must first say, "Uncle", then we'll bring out the fat lady. :Þ

[Barry_Green]

Nein! I concede nothing! :)

Seriously, I stand by everything I've said here. All my points are accurate. I leave it to the end user to make their own decision, as always. The information has been relayed, we're at the dead-horse-beating stage here.

[Jeremy Ordan]

we're at the dead-horse-beating stage here.

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/7852/1173388957.gif

I personally am not a fan of rolling shutter... I was warned ahead of time, ignored it, and learned my lesson. That is my opinion though, your experience will of course yield your own results

[Mattykins]

Aww, poor horse.

Lets hope no one from PETA sees that image Jeremy.

[Buck Forester]

As always in these discussions, an innocent horse dies because of a couple stubborn mules. :Þ LET THE BEATINGS CEASE. Bring out the chainsaws.

[DREWjoseph82]

Haha, is that the guy from "Office Space" hitting that horse?

[Buck Forester]

One last comment... that beating horse footage appears to have been shot with an HVX200. It's pretty low resolution. An EX1 would've brought out much finer details in the grass and the guy's face, especially on a static shot like this. :)

[jcoxshooter]

It was shot actually on a ex1 and you can tell because the fonts are sharp (no movement) and the movement in the beating of the horse is were the ex1 fell short:)

[Buck Forester]

You may be right. Plus the green screen keying around the head is shoddy. The question I ask is who would bring a horse into a studio and then beat it in front of a green screen? What have we become?

[Jon Neely]

oh yah, no "professional" wold do that...lol


Jon

[emotepix]

THE HORSE LIVES!!!

Despite being beat....

So what we're saying here is that there is no perfect video camera - like in 16mm there was the Bolex, then the Eclairs, the Aatons, the Arris, the Panaflex, the Scoopic...

Of course each camera was different, but if I had to pick one single camera to use for most situations, I could (and did).

What we're saying is that there's no HD equivalent here?

That we have to have at least one CCD camera and one CMOS camera accessible at all times to cover most of our shooting needs?

Let's not forget that in the case of the 16mm cameras, there were those that were smaller and didn't shoot sound (or allow quiet sound to be recorded anywhere near them either) and then there was the more expensive kind that ran quietly, have interchangeable this and that.

Pretty much all camcorders record audio, and run quietly these days.

However, if one put pretty much any pro quality 16mm footage through a telecine it would come out more or less identical.

Not so in the case of CCD vs CMOS and moving subjects, right?

So, what, a 170/200a and an EX-1 between them should cover 99% of most videographers' assignment needs (moving up to an EX-3 and whatever P2 camera has interchangeable lenses in the future)?

Could this be the end of ... gasp... the this-vs.-that-thread???


Nah, where would be the fun in that? LOL!!!

[Lynchy]

I have some footage of a runner taken from a car (approx 25-30km/h) shot 60p shutter speed at 500. I'm in the market for a new camera so I borrowed a friends EX1 and did a few tests. I mainly shoot sports footage so I tried it out with lots of movement. I'd be interested in your thoughts. I haven't tried the panasonic yet, so I can't compare.
I don't have a web address/server, is there any way I can get footage to the forum for users to look at..they're about 6-9 sec clips

[doofalot]

I have some footage of a runner taken from a car (approx 25-30km/h) shot 60p shutter speed at 500. I'm in the market for a new camera so I borrowed a friends EX1 and did a few tests. I mainly shoot sports footage so I tried it out with lots of movement. I'd be interested in your thoughts. I haven't tried the panasonic yet, so I can't compare.
I don't have a web address/server, is there any way I can get footage to the forum for users to look at..they're about 6-9 sec clips

well i'd be interested in seeing the footage, vimeo is a good way to go for posting your hd work

[Kholi]

With all due respect, Barry - you're being so enormously biased against the EX1, that I find it hard to believe you don't have your own agenda in it (guess which).

Below $15,000 there is no single camera that could even be compared with the XDCAM-EX. POINT.

I LOL'd.

[emotepix]

Jon
I think the word 'pro' is evolving. Outside of the union sized feature film crews, with three or four staff to each camera, and three on sound per crew, everything else is getting quicker, leaner, meaner, smaller, cheaper.

The camera was a bastion of quality that's now crumbling or already down. Used to be the gear was all over $10k and so needed an operator, paid and trained, to work it. Used to be an apprentice had to know how to thread a KEM or a mag film recorder and work an Acme edge stamping machine before they would be considered good enough to be an assistant.

No longer.

I've actually seen footage with 'pros' making fun of a sync clapper, by giving the editors an AE who is clapping (applauding), and also tried to sync a six camera free run TC shoot where the first frame on tape is a slate already closed because the operator didn't know how to call for second sticks, or indeed, what second sticks are...

[lawriejaffa]

I know what you mean Kholi, with opinions like moldcad...

[Buck Forester]

I LOL'd.

I know what you mean Kholi, with opinions like moldcad...


Seems odd you would laugh at someone's opinion... he simply sees an obvious bias (and said it respectfully) and he thinks, as do many others, that there is no better sub-$15,000 camera. And he said it in a thread about the EX1. And that's funny? It's one thing to disagree with an opinion and say why, it's another to attempt to belittle. Oh well.

[Tim Naylor]

Barry, you could always add some weights to the ex1 and pretend it's a heavy cam. I really don't see your point here.

Barry's assessment with the EX1 is pretty spot on. I understand his reasoning with RED. Taking that logic, put your EX1 on a good set of sticks or a more stable hand held rig. You have one extreme, Philip Bloom style, mostly static on sticks or you got Born Supremacy at the other extreme. The former is ideal for CMOS and the latter, well get another camera. As much as people say RED is a feature camera, it's in the frenetic hand held field that's still in vogue in many a feature that it may show its CMOS weaknesses. At the end of the day it still comes down to right tool for the right gig and at the under 20G crowd, your one camera may be like a leatherman - has everything but is not great at any.

Concerning the word "pro" it's means you get paid for your craft and your craft excels in terms of technique and conduct (you're never late and know what you're doing, do it fast, all the while maintaining your cool). When you get paid but don't know your craft, you're a hack. If you know your craft but don't get paid, you say "yes" far too often or have a trust fund. In any case, if you're going to use the EX1 know where it shines and where it doesn't. Don't get caught with magnetics or picket fences on your pans. And don't say, "nobody told me". Because nobody cares why you couldn't deliver. But will give you high hosannas if you did your homework.

[Kholi]

Seems odd you would laugh at someone's opinion... he simply sees an obvious bias (and said it respectfully) and he thinks, as do many others, that there is no better sub-$15,000 camera. And he said it in a thread about the EX1. And that's funny? It's one thing to disagree with an opinion and say why, it's another to attempt to belittle. Oh well.

It's not stated as opinion, it's stated at fact. Sorry man. If it were stated as opinion then that would be just it.

The best camera under 15k would be one that could do it all... please show me one that can flawlessly and I'll have no reason to switch cameras again in my life.

[Buck Forester]

It's not stated as opinion, it's stated at fact. Sorry man. If it were stated as opinion then that would be just it.

Not to get into a ridiculous discussion or anything, but an opinion is someone's take on something (a fact that can't be universally proven to be true or false). It is my opinion, and I know as a FACT for myself because I own the camera and have seen otherwise, that Barry completely over hypes the rolling shutter problem on the EX1. I know this to be true. He knows it to be different. Thus, our opinions differ. That's fine. I find it to be completely obvious that Barry and many others here are totally biased against the EX1. This is a fact to me, but since I can't prove it in the pure sense of the word, it's my opinion. If someone says John McCain is the best candidate, and another says Obama is the best by far, that's how they honestly feel. To "LOL" at their opinion, and another joins in with a high-five dig, that's just a childish attempt to belittle another's view. I see the obvious bias myself... you probably don't because, well, I'll let you answer that.

The best camera under 15k would be one that could do it all... please show me one that can flawlessly and I'll have no reason to switch cameras again in my life.

Obviously he's speaking of what he thinks the best sub-15K camera that 'exists' on the market, not what one can dream up. I think it's pretty well established each camera has its flaws. Choosing the best one in a certain price bracket is what he's talking about. That seems to be a given?

[Buck Forester]

Barry's assessment with the EX1 is pretty spot on.


It might be an accurate assessment of the EX1 he used, I dunno, but I can guarantee it doesn't accurately reflect the EX1 I have in my hand. Well, it's not in my hand right now because I'm typing, but it's only about 8.5 feet from me. My EX1 does not show the traits, not even close, that he says it does, or should, or whatever it's not supposed to be, or should be.

Allz I can say is if Barry is telling me the sky is pink, and I look up and it's quite blue, what am I supposed to believe? My eyes, or what someone tells me what I'm supposed to be seeing? Yes, in the extremes of the day, at morning and evening, the sky 'might' be pink, I'll grant that because it's true, but 95% of the time I'm seeing nice blue skies. Despite what others tell me about the sky.

[Kholi]

It's not a given on a forum. When it's prefaced with "in my opinion" then it's an opinion on a forum. When it's bookended with acidic flare like "point." then the statement becomes s fact and therefore should be proven. I'm not lol'ingar an opinion, I'm lol'ing at the statement being presented as a [spiteful] fact.

The camera is what it is and it is NOT a do-it-all system, in my opinion. That still doesn't stop me from want one just as much ax I want an HPX500. Defending it to the grave is ni better than condemning it because neither side if the fence sees anything truly productive. If you only see blue skies you should shoot them.

My LOL still stands, because I really did LOL and I can't go back in time to undo that. Oops.

[Buck Forester]

When it's bookended with acidic flare like "point." then the statement becomes s fact and therefore should be proven.


Ha! ... to say there is no better sub-15K camera is so OBVIOUSLY an opinion, and not a 'fact', that this warrants no further discussion. Of course, that's just my opinion, ha! No worries, Kholi, when it's all said and done we're just talking about cameras, it's cool.

I'm done with this thread (and the crowd goes crazy!) because I've been sitting here reviewing my spankin' new footage today (not wilderness stuff, just family stuff and 'tests' around the neighborhood) and I am COMPLETELY blown away with this sucker! This is the God's honest truth... I panned this thing at 1080/60i in auto mode like there was no tomorrow without a HINT of skew, then I handheld it and purposely shook it, both with vibrations and wobbles (as if I were hiking in the wilds, handheld, getting rough footage) and I did not see any jello or ANY wobble. I'm not saying this blindly or because I have a SooOOOOny or that I've been discussing it the last few days here, but I was honestly expecting 'some' skew and wobble with what I was doing with it. None! Nada, Zippo, Zilch! I was doing stuff I would never even do in a flick and I still wasn't able invoke rolling shutter or wobble. I honestly don't know if some folks got bad production models or what... mine is fresh off the line, 6000+ serial number, and I AM SO FREAKING EXCITED at what I'm seeing!

I can't WAIT to get this thing into the wilderness! So much of what I've been dreaming and working towards is now coming to fruition. I went all out on the studio and monitoring and editing stuff, and carefully reviewed a bunch of cameras (and computers and software and capture cards and monitors and audio and tripods and dollies and jibs and mounts and stabilizers and lens adapters and helicopters - okay, I lied about the helicopters, etc., etc.), spent MONTHS in these forums watching and learning and taking notes... then slowly posting some questions, then comments, then quickly becoming obnoxious (ha!), but now it's GO-TIME!

I'm sure I'd be just as excited about a new HVX200a or a Canon-majigger, but seeing this razor sharp footage on my 30" screen, allz I can say is WOW! people, if anyone is considering this Sony EX1 contraption, it is SUH-WEET!!! YAAA! Okay, gotta hit the jose (bedtime, not Cuervo), not sure how I can sleep... seriously, I am PUMPED! Okay, I'm done. Peace out. And remember, it's all about the wilderness!

[doofalot]

It might be an accurate assessment of the EX1 he used, I dunno, but I can guarantee it doesn't accurately reflect the EX1 I have in my hand. Well, it's not in my hand right now because I'm typing, but it's only about 8.5 feet from me. My EX1 does not show the traits, not even close, that he says it does, or should, or whatever it's not supposed to be, or should be.

Allz I can say is if Barry is telling me the sky is pink, and I look up and it's quite blue, what am I supposed to believe? My eyes, or what someone tells me what I'm supposed to be seeing? Yes, in the extremes of the day, at morning and evening, the sky 'might' be pink, I'll grant that because it's true, but 95% of the time I'm seeing nice blue skies. Despite what others tell me about the sky.

man, i would love to see some of your successful "non philip bloom style" footage on the ex1 if you ever get a chance to post it. any good non-super-slow-and-smooth-pan movement that doesn't create the jello effect.

you have one of the most glowing opinions of the ex1 and if it is performing as you say it is, then it would indeed have the potential to be the hvx killer. so far, my (now extensive) research on footage is showing almost any movement not done by philip bloom at a snail's pace to be problematic, especially at 24p.

i would love to see something to sway opinions in the other direction.

[doofalot]

this may be a bad hypothesis

but i am wondering if the jellocam effect might be reduced if the ex1 were to shoot a scene in 48p then play the scene at 200% speed (thus resulting in normal speed) with frame blending.

since the image would be sampled twice as often per frame, there would be reduced opportunity for parts of the image to shift relative to each other as the sensor worked its way down the frame.

i am now prepared to have my theory blown out of the water, or told the footage will look bad, etc.

[kubalsky]

man, i would love to see some of your successful "non philip bloom style" footage on the ex1 if you ever get a chance to post it. any good non-super-slow-and-smooth-pan movement that doesn't create the jello effect.

you have one of the most glowing opinions of the ex1 and if it is performing as you say it is, then it would indeed have the potential to be the hvx killer. so far, my (now extensive) research on footage is showing almost any movement not done by philip bloom at a snail's pace to be problematic, especially at 24p.

i would love to see something to sway opinions in the other direction.

Check this out. Last November when I first got my EX1 and still didn't really know what I was doing I decided to make a short documentary about a reclusive artist friend of mine. Mostly shot with the EX1 and some earlier stuff on my Canon Digital Camera. Watch the walking scene from around the 6min 30sec point. I'm blind drunk at this point and we are going for more beer. I'm carrying the EX1 handheld with no shoulder support 24p shutter off either off or 1/48 and drunk. Worst case scenario and it still looks ok to me.

http://www.vimeo.com/903426

I have since sobered up and shot a lot of perfectly sharp and steady panning shots, dolly shots, handheld, the works. I even shot handheld out the sunroof of a van doing 100kph and its smooth as anything.

[shaun1970]

With all due respect, Barry - you're being so enormously biased against the EX1, that I find it hard to believe you don't have your own agenda in it (guess which).

Below $15,000 there is no single camera that could even be compared with the XDCAM-EX. POINT.

Big call mate, real big. Take off the blinders.

[Buck Forester]

...it would indeed have the potential to be the hvx killer


Hi doofalot! Real quick... I gotta run, but I've never shot with another 'serious' camera (although I like my little HC9) so I have no idea how it compares to the HVX, nor do I really care how it compares to other cameras because I know this EX1 is more than I was ever hoping for when I decided I wanted to go into video production. It's stunning! I'm beside myself with excitement as I dream of what I'll be doing with this thing! I'm sure I'd be super excited with another high-end camera too... because it's an "EX1" or "Sony" doesn't matter to me, never has... my point has always been to give 'fair' assessments of cameras with no personal bias and I was seeing a lot of unwarranted bias. I'm not fond of the term "HVX killer" because I'm sure the HVX is a fantastic camera and no camera will 'kill' another. The biggest threat to the current HVX will be the next model of HVX. But this EX1 is crazy awesome and it feels SO good in my hands! After I get out and shoot some serious footage and learn how to upload it, I'm sure I'll inundate you with links, ha! I don't know if that'll be a week or two or ten... I have a BIG learning curve ahead of me! ROCK-N-ROLL! Dream it and SHOOT IT!

[basspig]

Im not a fan of the EX1, we shot all weekend long...Your basic product w/ talent in the background shots. I see noise in the footage even when there was enough light to go negative gain.

I didn't have any issues with the shutter or sensors, just the noise in the footage got to me.

This sounds like a case of badly-misadjusted gamma, as we used an EX1 to shoot a stage production against two HVR-V1Us last Saturday, and I'm looking at the edit on a 47" screen and the EX1 footage simply looks like I'm seeing with my own eyes (as if 20/20 vision) instead of a camera--there is no visible noise anywhere in the picture.

Now to achieve this, I carefully studied all the parameters in the picture profile menu see THIS DOCUMENT (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-cinematography/mkt-cinematographyvideo/resource.latest.bbsccms-assets-micro-xdcamex-latest-ShootingTipsIndex.shtml). Adjusting the Crispening properly can, combined with avoiding excessive black stretch, produce some of the cleanest video images you may ever see, all with the EX1.

It is also possible that you were looking at the component (analog) output on a monitor. I think the component output of this camera is not so good. Best way to judge the picture is to copy the files off the SxS cards and bring them directly into an editor that can play them out to a huge monitor.

I recently watched a Blu-ray disc I produced, on a Sony FullHD projection system to an 82" Stuart screen and it looks fantastic--I mean unbelieveable for video--just like watching something between 35mm and 70mm film in terms of cleanness and detail acuity. The EX1, in competent hands, can produce images with no visible noise, and tremendous detail. Be patient, learn the camera's controls, digest every document you can find on the camera's featrures (the link above is a good start) and experiment. You will do much better once you know the camera's tools and can optimize results.

[lawriejaffa]

"Below $15,000 there is no single camera that could even be compared with the XDCAM-EX. POINT."

This kind of partisan view is the stuff of fanboys - certainly my lol stands, it can't be taken even remotely seriously. There are some guys here that really need to stop getting off from their ego's (i mean theres a private place for that...)

So far Buck your in the lead... I can't turn a page hehe without seeing you go oooon and ooooon about the same gibbery defensive rubbish!

We get it - some folk with the EX believes it is made by Zeus itself and that no problems exist whatsoever and that its just exaggerated by... pfft Karl Rove or something hehe. Others are frustrated that it can do so much well - and so much not well - almost a camera of extremes!

I consider Barry Green a voice of reason as do most on these forums. So thats why I and most here would reject criticisms of bias, there not, their opinions of preference...

[DREWjoseph82]

I know its already been dragged on and on and on, but I am still researching the EX1 and its rolling shutter and came across this example.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=123857

I know its the Sony Z7, not the EX1, but seeing as its still a Sony CMOS camera, I dont think there would be a huge difference.

To me, the amount of camera shake is not much. You see a lot more in action oriented cinema productions. The image looks fantastic, but that skew...is definitely noticeable.

[seunosewa]

Barry really hates the Ex1 :(

[Barry_Green]

Barry really hates the Ex1 :(
Sorry, no.

I hate the way Sony conducts themselves, yes. But the EX1 is a decent product. Certainly the most competitive product they've released since the PD150.

It is not the all-hallowed super-ultimate "best camera on the planet under $15,000"; instead it's a decent product that produces very very sharp pictures and has hideous ergonomics, quality control problems, and a rolling shutter. And I do hate rolling shutters. I wish it was possible to get the other results (pixel density, cost, power consumption) without having to have a rolling shutter. But it's not. So if you want those things, you have to pay the piper. I don't like the price that the piper asks. Some folks don't even notice it. Great for them.

[Buck Forester]

Lawriejaffa... your posts speak volumes. It's sorta strange... hmmm... that you're an obvious big Panny fanboy (not that there's anything wrong with that, more power to you, great company!) but you spend the majority of your time not in HVX threads, but in 'bashing EX1' threads. One can could easily conclude a sense of envy and frustration by your posts... laughing at other people's opinions, spending your time in EX1 threads, dog piling over and over on the same issues that have nothing to do with what you're shooting with, etc. It's funny... I think the HVX is a great camera despite its inherent weaknesses, and I think the Canon's are great too... no bashing of cameras from me. But if one simply says, "the EX1 is NOT AS BAD as it's portrayed", then the attacks come. Ha! Well, hey, admittedly this is a Panny site. It's cool. But simply saying the EX1 is not so bad sure pisses a lot of you guys off! There's gotta be something psychological behind it but I'm no mind doctor. And I'm sure not saying the reverse about any other cameras... if you're shooting an HVX, good choice! I wish you'd link to your homepage or any of your work in your profile, I'd love to see it. Best of luck out there. GOOoOOO Panasonic!