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Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 09:44 AM
Click here to read the full article (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/12)

Robert Eldon
06-05-2008, 10:11 AM
Wow! Been waiting for this! Thanks guys. Thanks Barry.

Adam J McKay
06-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Very Exciting. As is every new camera. Cant wait to see some footage.

ilauzirika
06-05-2008, 10:26 AM
You said soon and here it is, thanks for the update.

DC
06-05-2008, 10:56 AM
I'm digging it! Can't wait for the actual production model to ship! I'll certainly be getting one. And I imagine they'll continue to improve the design until then.

Jason Ramsey
06-05-2008, 11:18 AM
I love the focus/iris switch changes. I think that was the one thing that I requested :)

Later,
Jason

Daygola814
06-05-2008, 11:40 AM
That's friggin' awesome! I can't wait for this cam. Too bad the Dynamic Range Stretch doesn't work in 24p modes. I'd assume that that's where it would be most used... in 24p film work! Oh well...

Thanks, Barry for the article!

Erik Olson
06-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Wow. That DRS is a great feature. That, and the SDI and the metadata manipulation in-camera and on and on.

e

filmguy123
06-05-2008, 01:37 PM
So is it PAL/NTSC switchable?

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 01:56 PM
Not decided yet. The version I tested didn't have the option.

Jason Ramsey
06-05-2008, 02:03 PM
The version I tested didn't have the option

Ouch....

Later,
Jason

Derrick_SA
06-05-2008, 02:36 PM
please panasonic, you're so close to making this the perfect camera, please add ntsc/pal switchable.

thanks for all the work done to tell us about his camera barry, appreciate it.

- Derrick

TheMusician
06-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Thanks for doing this review Barry. Your efforts are always appreciated. It looks like Panasonic has really stepped up to the plate, and are listening to what customers want. I am impressed by the improvements in this camera and LOVE that it is not a rolling shutter camera. I have one question. DVCPro is a great codec to edit in terms of color space, bitrate, etc. but I have never been very happy with the 1280x1080 resolution. I know that this camera processes 1920x1080 internally. If you record out of the HD-SDI(say to a Convergent solution) and compare it to the DvcPro HD, is the footage any sharper? Noticeably so? Thanks

Alex.Mitchell
06-05-2008, 02:48 PM
No DRS in 24p really kills me. They NEED to do something about that.

Cees Mutsaers
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the great review Barry. If you are so excited it must be a killer cam :-)

Some additional questions though :

Is the picture of the 170 in your article a picture of the model you had in your hands or still te old picture from Nab. I ask this because there still seems to be no eye correction at the EVF.

Why a DRS switch. Are there shooting conditions you want to switch it off?

Do I understand it well when you say that the LCD is much better not only due to the new focus assist tools but also because the LCD is just more sharp although it has the same resolution?

Despite the difference in glass size the sensitivity of the 200A and 170 seems the same. Isn't that strange?

Any info about battery life time? Is the vertical mounting position of the battery an advantage?

Maybe less important but what about the colour of the cam ? Is it black or grey and is the colour of the lens different than the rest of the cam (or is that just caused by the photo flash like with pictures of the HVX)

many thanks

filmguy123
06-05-2008, 03:33 PM
No DRS in 24p really kills me. They NEED to do something about that.

And 30p... and 60p...
And 720 modes...
480i would be nice too...

what gives??

10s
06-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Needs: DSR , cages for 1.85:1 & 2.39:1, otherwise, sounds great!

matt s.
06-05-2008, 05:49 PM
Thanks Barry this is gonna be an awesome cam!

Kholi
06-05-2008, 05:58 PM
Figured they'd add DRS... but not only in 1080/60i. I know ya said that it's incapable for some reason? Hope it just magically appears in the other shooting formats.

Added benefits over 200A: Size, Weight, SDI, even BETTER LCD (200A's is pretty awesome), and Menu Options: particularly the 16:9 SD output selection. So glad that made it in.

Ahhh cameras and gear, will it ever stop?

The most interesting comparison will be HPX170 vs HMC150 for Codec Differences alone. I truly wonder how the HMC150 will do image-wise.

SPZ
06-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Great article. The in camera software seems MUCH better! Anyway, I second everyone's opinion on the DRS- Will a poll make any difference?

Barry, about sharpness and color reproduction: HVX200a vs HPX170- How does the new lens "sees" fine detail and colors compared to the HVX200a?

This looks like my next camera... Lets see how it goes price wise on retail...

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:28 PM
If you record out of the HD-SDI(say to a Convergent solution) and compare it to the DvcPro HD, is the footage any sharper? Noticeably so? Thanks
It should be a little sharper but probably not significantly so.

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:29 PM
No DRS in 24p really kills me. They NEED to do something about that.
See, this is what's awesome here: we didn't even have any clue that the DRS would be on there *at all* and now we're up in arms because it's not in 24P mode. The internet community is a tough customer.

But, my understanding is that it cannot be. I've tried to dig into this DRS issue some and it seems like it needs the fast update speed of the 60p sensor in order to be able to work its magic. The slower frame rate wouldn't let it happen. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'm 80% sure.

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Is the picture of the 170 in your article a picture of the model you had in your hands or still te old picture from Nab. I ask this because there still seems to be no eye correction at the EVF.
It was the new prototype. It's still a prototype. I can't fathom how there wouldn't be diopter correction on the finished model, I wouldn't even worry about that.


Why a DRS switch. Are there shooting conditions you want to switch it off?
There are three different levels, plus off. One scenario you'd want to turn it off is if you want really deep shadows and blacks. Those are hard to get with DRS on because it lifts the blacks up so much.

But, a side benefit of lifting the blacks is that it makes it, effectively, a lower-noise picture.


Do I understand it well when you say that the LCD is much better not only due to the new focus assist tools but also because the LCD is just more sharp although it has the same resolution?
Yes, that's what I'm saying. The processing on the video signal and the stronger peaking makes the LCD absolutely usable. It's not just the focus assists, it's when you look at the LCD you just see a sharp image. I don't know if it's higher res, I doubt it is, I think it's the same panel. But the image on that panel is way sharper and much more usable.


Despite the difference in glass size the sensitivity of the 200A and 170 seems the same. Isn't that strange?
Again, I'm saying it's in the ballpark. There are things they can do, ways they can process it, and they haven't committed to the final version yet. So don't take any performance testing as gospel yet, like I said.


Any info about battery life time? Is the vertical mounting position of the battery an advantage?
Battery life is claimed to be identical to the HVX200 so far. We'll see when the final version is done, but right now they're saying the power draw is the same. Vertical mounting means that it's probably going to be immune to the "battery tab" issue that affected some of the very earliest HVX200s.


Maybe less important but what about the colour of the cam ? Is it black or grey and is the colour of the lens different than the rest of the cam (or is that just caused by the photo flash like with pictures of the HVX)
Same color as all the professional DVCPRO products. The flash makes it look bluer. It's not black, it's gray.

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:36 PM
Needs: DSR , cages for 1.85:1 & 2.39:1, otherwise, sounds great!
It's like you were in the room with me. :)

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:36 PM
The most interesting comparison will be HPX170 vs HMC150 for Codec Differences alone. I truly wonder how the HMC150 will do image-wise.
Very much interested in testing that myself.

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 08:38 PM
Great article. The in camera software seems MUCH better! Anyway, I second everyone's opinion on the DRS- Will a poll make any difference?
My understanding is that it's impossible at other than the 60i (or maybe 60p) rate. A poll wouldn't change that. :)


Barry, about sharpness and color reproduction: HVX200a vs HPX170- How does the new lens "sees" fine detail and colors compared to the HVX200a?
Footage looked nigh identical to me. Only real difference I could discern was that the 170's lens was a little bit wider. And, you can make the footage look different with the finer control in the master pedestal, but you can also precisely match them.

Jason Adams
06-05-2008, 09:20 PM
This cam sounds amazing.

They should of just called it the "Take that Ex1" cam.

Just joking they are both cool cameras...But this one I will own.

Thanks Barry

Robert Eldon
06-05-2008, 09:47 PM
Barry, can you expand on the following from your article?:

"2)LVL METER: This toggles the audio meter display between showing Channels 1 & 2, and showing Channels 3 & 4, so you can actually monitor the audio levels on 3 & 4 now!"

What would be an example of using Channels 3 & 4? How were they used before if they couldn't be monitored?

Thanks!

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 10:00 PM
They could be used, but not monitored. You only had audio monitors on 1 & 2. So typically we'd use the XLRs on 1 & 2, and ignore channels 3 & 4 because they were relegated to being from the on-camera mic.

You still can't change the level of 3 & 4, but at least you can monitor it. Or... hmmm... maybe you could change 3 & 4 if you held down the LVL METER button while adjusting the audio dials? I didn't try that... dangit! Now I want to try that... grr.

Robert Eldon
06-05-2008, 10:26 PM
They could be used, but not monitored. You only had audio monitors on 1 & 2. So typically we'd use the XLRs on 1 & 2, and ignore channels 3 & 4 because they were relegated to being from the on-camera mic.

You still can't change the level of 3 & 4, but at least you can monitor it. Or... hmmm... maybe you could change 3 & 4 if you held down the LVL METER button while adjusting the audio dials? I didn't try that... dangit! Now I want to try that... grr.

Barry, just to be clear, are the 3 & 4 channels assignable? If so, and if you could change the levels of 3 & 4, it would provide more flexibility for 'bracketing' the audio (which is something I like to do).

Thanks for your reply. :)

Barry_Green
06-05-2008, 10:54 PM
From my experimentation it works exactly as the HVX does. You have four input sources (XLR 1, XLR 2, int mic L, and int mic R). You can assign channel one to get its input from XLR1, XLR 2, or from int mic L. If you choose CH1 to be XLR 1 or XLR 2, then CH3 becomes int mic L. If you choose CH1 to be int mic L, then ch3 becomes XLR 1.

You can assign channel 2 to get its input from XLR2 or from int mic R. Whichever you choose for CH 2, the other gets mapped to CH 4.

In the HVX you don't have the ability to change the volume levels of ch's 3 & 4, and I expect the HPX170 works the same way.

Kholi
06-05-2008, 11:06 PM
Somehow I floated RIGHT over the overscan mode. Now that's one I didn't even think about but secretly wished for in the back of my head. I always use 90% on LCD and external monitors so it'll be nice to at least not have to worry about remembering the lil white lines when I can just use overscan.

Lots of nice little options went into this camera, it ain't the resolution grabber still but things are headed in a great direction.

About DRS: Maybe it's just the compression of those stills but as I compare them where they're at I sorta don't like the DRS image. Somethin' off about the shadow casting on the grass, but maybe that's because of the image size/compression again.

Alex.Mitchell
06-06-2008, 12:30 AM
See, this is what's awesome here: we didn't even have any clue that the DRS would be on there *at all* and now we're up in arms because it's not in 24P mode. The internet community is a tough customer.

You know, I was thinking about that when I made my post. I know that bought gear is obsolete gear, but it still feels really weird to not have DRS in every shooting mode considering that it's only available in the most taxing mode to execute it on.

arno
06-06-2008, 02:46 AM
Thanks Barry!

A lot of improvements...
iI ll bet Pana will do the extra 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 cages and DSR on 25p (and of course 720). Why not?
When will it be for sale in Europe?

Arno

joe 1008
06-06-2008, 03:55 AM
What struck me most was that DRS function. Incredible what it does! It will safe you half a lightning set! While it's only in 60i I've got a little off-topic question: I don't have any experience with deinterlacing in post. I would be really willing to do that extra work if it's worth doing it. But would such a procedure give similar results compared to real 24p? Or is there any strobing, distortion or loss of resolution (I heard 20% of resolution loss is normal...)

By the way, how is the quuality of the LCD, especially in plain sunlight?

SPZ
06-06-2008, 08:17 AM
Putting the 1:85:1 and 2:35:1 guides would be a fantastic and easy way for Panasonic to show its commitment to the Indie community. I would love this feature, indeed...

As for the DNR. If we have it in 25p, fine, if not, no problem.

Now the Ntsc and Pal switchable option would be the true icing on the cake... Do it, Panasonic!

filmguy123
06-06-2008, 11:21 AM
See, this is what's awesome here: we didn't even have any clue that the DRS would be on there *at all* and now we're up in arms because it's not in 24P mode. The internet community is a tough customer.

Because the internet customers are generally the most informed ones. It's not a matter of "ungrateful" as if DRS was a gift, its a matter of expectations for $6,000. It stings when a killer feature is introduced, but only implemented "halfway." How many people here actually use 1080i60i on a regular basis? I for one NEVER shoot this mode. If DSR was available only in the 720p modes (24p,30p,60p) I'm sure it would be a different story, as these are the most used.

Understandable if it truely is impossible, but I don't believe in impossible when it comes to tech. I'll bet my HVX200 that the HPX170 successor will have an improved DSR available in all modes. A better term might be, "not feasible at the moment" - ok, if that is really true, I accept, and I am glad but it has been included at all, but I can't help but be dissapointed that a great feature (DSR) is only available in a mode I will probably never shoot in.

filmguy123
06-06-2008, 02:03 PM
The wide angle comparison compares the HVX200, 200a, and HPX170.

The tele only compares the HVX200a and HPX170 - which are OF COURSE really similar, almost identical! So why was an HVX200 vs 200a/HPX170 tele not included? I am sure the difference between the HVX200 and the 200a/170 is much more noticeable, and that is the comparison that actually matters...

Joe Lawry
06-06-2008, 02:42 PM
From my experimentation it works exactly as the HVX does. You have four input sources (XLR 1, XLR 2, int mic L, and int mic R). You can assign channel one to get its input from XLR1, XLR 2, or from int mic L. If you choose CH1 to be XLR 1 or XLR 2, then CH3 becomes int mic L. If you choose CH1 to be int mic L, then ch3 becomes XLR 1.

You can assign channel 2 to get its input from XLR2 or from int mic R. Whichever you choose for CH 2, the other gets mapped to CH 4.

In the HVX you don't have the ability to change the volume levels of ch's 3 & 4, and I expect the HPX170 works the same way.

Does anyone know the set level that channel 3 and 4 are set too?

Cause if that was something decent like -12 or -20 then you could set 1 and 2 too Internal Mic and 3 and 4 to XLR, throw a mixer/soundie into 3 and 4 and then have full control over the internal mic while knowing 3 and 4 were safe getting a mix at a set level. and of course you could monitor it.

This isnt something that's HPX specific and could work on a 200 however it'd be easier to test on an HPX as you could see exactly where the tone was peaking when checking that level, on a 200 you'd have to do it in post.

Right wheres a soundie when i need one, i wanna figure this out.

Barry_Green
06-06-2008, 04:15 PM
The tele only compares the HVX200a and HPX170 - which are OF COURSE really similar, almost identical! So why was an HVX200 vs 200a/HPX170 tele not included? I am sure the difference between the HVX200 and the 200a/170 is much more noticeable, and that is the comparison that actually matters...
'Cause I can't find the clip that I shot full telephoto yet. :)

Barry_Green
06-06-2008, 04:16 PM
Does anyone know the set level that channel 3 and 4 are set too?
On the 200 they're set to a level corresponding to having the dials pointing directly up, top dead center.

flatlander
06-06-2008, 05:52 PM
http://www.panasonic.com.au/products/category.cfm?objectID=165

are these the card that it will run on?

ilauzirika
06-06-2008, 05:57 PM
http://www.panasonic.com.au/products/category.cfm?objectID=165

are these the card that it will run on?

nop, that's for the Panasonic HMC150, the HPX170 uses P2 cards and those are sdhc cards.

aalleexx
06-06-2008, 09:11 PM
quick question regarding the lens of this cam, how big of a difference would it be to shoot this cam at the widest the lens goes vs using a 28mm lens with 35mm adapter? just a shot in the dark

Joe Lawry
06-06-2008, 10:58 PM
On the 200 they're set to a level corresponding to having the dials pointing directly up, top dead center.

Thats probably around 0dB.. oh for control over all 4 channels. One day... So far everything else we've got is amazing, Going to pre order as soon as i can.

SPrimeau
06-06-2008, 11:45 PM
I know that a HD panoramic will not make it in the new camera because of the thumbnail view of the P2 clips.

But, is it possible to make a higher resolution LCD without changing the aspect ratio of the LCD?

Nikon made that with their new D3 and D300. Same 3" screen, but 920,000 dots instead of 230,000.

ullanta
06-06-2008, 11:54 PM
Does anyone know the set level that channel 3 and 4 are set too?

Cause if that was something decent like -12 or -20 then you could set 1 and 2 too Internal Mic and 3 and 4 to XLR, throw a mixer/soundie into 3 and 4 and then have full control over the internal mic while knowing 3 and 4 were safe getting a mix at a set level.



-12 and -20 are common settings for average levels compared to a clipping point. You don't want your recording device to be set to these levels, you want the SIGNAL sent to the recording device to average at these levels.

The "straight up" 12 o'clock position of the HVX, which seems to be what is used for "background" channels, is one in which the signal is passed through to the A/D converter pretty much unmodified, which is exactly what you want.

On the HVX, to calibrate your mixer, set the inputs to inp 1 and inp 2, set the gains to 12 o'clock, send a signal at a known level, and calibrate the mixer output so that the HVX meters show the same level. Then, switch the inputs to int 1 and int 2 and set the gain controls for your situation.

On the 170, if indeed you can switch meters between 12 and 34, this calibration process is even easier and potentially more precise.

djembeplay
06-07-2008, 01:16 AM
That DRS feature... If it works well, without much noise, it's going to be a HUUUGEE advantage.

HUUUUUUGGGE advantage....

Sincerely stoked.

cheezweezl
06-07-2008, 02:37 AM
no evf dtl or focus assist when in lcd flip mode?? did i read this right? wouldn't flip mode be where you need these features the most? i really hope this changes on the production model. i was really looking forward to be able to shoot handheld with a 35mm adapter and be able to pull focus without an external monitor onboard. please don't let us down panny!!! please please please!!!!

Postmaster
06-07-2008, 04:37 AM
I sure get one cause I love the features but it`s ugly as hell.
Looks like it comes straight from the 80s.

Why donīt they give them the look of professional cameras?
JVC did that - and I was tempted to buy one because of that.

If a customer sees you with a little (big is beautyfull) vintage consumer lokking thing itīs getting hard to charge pro rates out of him.

I go buy one anyways and bolt so much extras on it that you cant`t see the camera. ;-)

Frank

Bokes
06-07-2008, 07:31 AM
I go buy one anyways and bolt so much extras on it that you cant`t see the camera. ;-)

Frank


Add some rails, a matte box and a follow focus. This does wonders to a clients perception. They suddenly feel like their making a movie.

aalleexx
06-07-2008, 08:34 AM
can someone please answer my question regarding the lens of this cam, how big of a difference would it be to shoot this cam at the widest the lens goes vs using a 28mm lens with 35mm adapter?

Bob Gruen
06-07-2008, 09:07 AM
A minimum iris floor setting in the menu system would be good for 35mm adapter users. I think most of us shoot above a 4.0 floor, it would be nice if you could set that floor and not be in danger of running under it, or even use the auto iris function and not run under it.

Some of these things seem to be firmware upgrades (not hardware dependent). It would sure be nice to see some of these changes on firmware updates for the 200 models. Specifically, I'd like the focus/iris ring redef on the 200s. We know the 200s can do it, they simply need to drop the autofocus portion of it.

Bob

Bob D
06-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Do we have a date yet as to when this camera will be released?

Barry_Green
06-07-2008, 11:40 AM
"September" is the only thing we've been told.

flean
06-07-2008, 03:56 PM
any idea about a possible price range for this cam.?

Barry_Green
06-07-2008, 05:15 PM
In the same general ballpark as the HVX200.

Fliques Osman
06-07-2008, 07:24 PM
Forget about this camera unless you have a project for the fall. For this price range (assuming it cost the same as HVX) get a Scarlet! My 2 cents.

Zander
06-07-2008, 08:59 PM
Forget about this camera unless you have a project for the fall. For this price range (assuming it cost the same as HVX) get a Scarlet! My 2 cents.

Speculation says it won't be out for over a year. Get the HPX.

Bokes
06-08-2008, 01:30 PM
a year? What speculation?
I speculate we see it sooner

Kholi
06-08-2008, 01:41 PM
You Scarlet guys crack me up.

lawriejaffa
06-08-2008, 01:57 PM
Agreed - i think a too few many scarlett fanboys need to remember that until its on sale - it can't be compared to anything.

I for one will def get one if it meets the specs but thus far the hpx 170 looks great - i'm definately gonna be grabbing one!

Daygola814
06-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Agreed - i think a too few many scarlett fanboys need to remember that until its on sale - it can't be compared to anything.

I for one will def get one if it meets the specs but thus far the hpx 170 looks great - i'm definately gonna be grabbing one!

Exactly. I will definitely purchase a Scarlet if it lives up to the specs but who knows, if they meet the release date, does that mean you'll be able to get your hands on one? We don't know anything about it other than what's down on paper. Keep in mind those are temporary specs subject to change. At this point, you can't claim that it will do what you need it to.

That being said, I'm sure it will be a great camera, but don't postpone your film shoots with the hopes of shooting 3K. If you're film is good and you shoot it on the Hpx170, chances are it will get picked up anyway. No one in their right mind will turn down a good film if it wasn't shot 3K, etc.

I'm sure RED will deliver a great camera, but until we know what it is capable of and not capable of, don't think it's the best camera for you. That's just advice, not trying to be mean here or anything.

puredrifting
06-08-2008, 11:37 PM
If Scarlet has the same rolling shutter issues that the EX-1 has, count me out. Have been shooting with the EX-1 a lot over the past month and it is a great camera EXCEPT when it comes to shooting with fast camera motion. I hope that RED doesn't give Scarlet a CMOS imager with a rolling shutter, it seems to be a bad combination.

Dan

Kholi
06-08-2008, 11:59 PM
I don't think it can be avoided. In all honesty I'm going to have a Scarlet but it won't be the only camera I own. It'll be just another film stock to pick from.

Although the EX-3's BnH price makes me think that I might be owning a CMOS sensor second cam sooner than I expected.

Good grief.

Barry_Green
06-09-2008, 08:24 AM
Guys, this isn't really the Scarlet thread, we have a whole forum for that over at www.scarletuser.com (http://www.scarletuser.com)

puredrifting
06-09-2008, 09:24 AM
Back to the HPX-170, Barry, has Jan or anyone at Panasonic indicated that they will hopefully be better prepared for the onslaught of demand than they were on the original HVX?

Dan

Aroon_Narayanan
06-12-2008, 09:16 PM
B&H has listed the HPX170 on their website at a list price of about $6000. They have it listed as arriving in stock by September. Here's the link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_DVCPRO_HD_P2_CAMCORDER.html

I hope the price comes down to match the HVX, or even less!

Sumfun
06-12-2008, 11:05 PM
I would expect the HPX170 to be less than the HVX200, too. After all, they took out the tape drive, so that should lead to some savings. Maybe the $6000 is the MSRP, and street price will be lower come September. The EX1 is only $6500.

Jason Ramsey
06-12-2008, 11:50 PM
And, they also added HD-SDI, new ccds, and a host of other feature additions that were requested by members.

I wouldn't expect it to be cheaper (thought it's possible, I guess). Maybe the same, maybe a bit more at first. I would probably expect it to retail fro somewhere around the cost of the hvx when it first came out and then to fall to current retail prices of the hvx200 within due time.

5300-5700 retail on day one is my guess. Tape drive ain't going to save that much money. In my opinion, if anything it would add value due to the fact that you now have a camera without the moving parts of a tape drive that will likely come with the same 5 year warranty of the other HPX series of cameras as a result. 5 year warranty.

Later,
Jason

Jan_Crittenden
06-13-2008, 03:57 AM
Hi,

I do believe that we will receive in the first month a good supply but keep in mind there are about 200 dealers and we have a lot of direct customers alos looking at this camera for brodact news/stringers, so I don't think I have ever see a really cool product get introduced where we didn't have a back order for at least a couple of months. The 200 was exceptional as the back order seemed to last way too long, but as Dan pointed out it was ground-breaking. What we did would be analogous to the EX1 if the EX1 delivered with the HDCAM compression in it and CCDs. We took our top end codec and made it available to the masses. I think that took a lot of courage in that it could have hurt larger camera sales. It has proven quite differently, Sales on all cameras have steadily grown, ecept Varicam, but I think that is just due to the fact that people want a P2 Varicam and that is coming my friends. Those two cameras promise to be just awesome.

All the best,
Jan

Butcher
06-13-2008, 08:08 AM
Friend of mine sent me a heads up that the HPX170 was listed on B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_DVCPRO_HD_P2_CAMCORDER.html

MSRP of $6K.

Michael

davide
06-13-2008, 03:48 PM
Let's hope that that price drops. Doesn't look like they are allowing for an pre-orders just yet.

Noel Evans
06-13-2008, 04:45 PM
The DRS should attract quite a number of the wedding crowd Id imagine. Shame its not on 24p settings, would have made a good companion tto the 500.

Barry_Green
06-13-2008, 07:06 PM
DRS could be somewhat ideal for weddings, when you consider you're usually looking at a worst-case scenario there of groom in black tux, bride in white dress, etc.

Also, I got it wrong -- it's not just 1080/60i, but DRS also works in 720/60P. It cannot work in slower frame rates, but it does work in 60, so for those wanting to employ it in their slow-mo footage the possibility exists.

LuckyStudio 13
06-13-2008, 07:41 PM
What about the 50/60hz switchable ? Is that feature DEAD for good now ?

Kholi
06-13-2008, 08:15 PM
Friend of mine sent me a heads up that the HPX170 was listed on B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_DVCPRO_HD_P2_CAMCORDER.html

MSRP of $6K.

Michael

uhhh wut? 6K? I really hope that price isn't THE price... Ick.

Stevens
06-14-2008, 02:40 AM
HD-SDI port , that thing just pumps the price pain... it's the same happened with Canon Xh G1 ... nobody has noticed the jigsaw? I think the EURO price will be very very high, damn! And you must add P2 cards (2x64GB)... so the final price will be almost 8999 euros or more! If Panasonic Usa takes down the price, the euro price will be "acceptable", but they must cut the price at least 2000$ from my loved beast!

Cees Mutsaers
06-14-2008, 03:11 AM
Is there any footage of the 170 available after "the second look" ??

joe 1008
06-14-2008, 08:13 AM
What about the 50/60hz switchable ? Is that feature DEAD for good now ?

Yes, whatīs about that???

ian lucero
06-14-2008, 10:32 AM
uhhh wut? 6K? I really hope that price isn't THE price... Ick.

MSRP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSRP)

Kholi
06-14-2008, 10:45 AM
I know what MSRP means, BH has a habit of putting up their prices early. See: EX3 @ 8320 when MSRP is 8999.99

David Shawl
06-14-2008, 11:32 AM
This month's American Cinematographer has a thick multi-page Panasonic advertisement insert that shows off the P2 series. It mentions the HPX-170 and that is DOES have NTSC/PAL switchability.

fifthblade
06-16-2008, 06:18 AM
I posted this link in the HPX first look thread,
maybe some people didn't spot it.

But some company called EAR (who i have never used and don't vouch for)
list the MRSP at $5999.00
and are listing their price at $5195.00,
bundled with a 16GB P2 card and book...

take a look here if your curious:
http://www.ear.net/cgi-bin/estatusp?p=1&mode=stp&q=PAN-AGHPX170

Given that Neither Jan or Barry have a confirmed price yet,
and that they have info straight from Panasonic direct.
I think its safe to say that much of the pricing specifics are still up in the air...

Only thing for certain,September can't come soon enough!

David Saraceno
06-16-2008, 09:31 AM
Barry:

What are your views on the addition of SDI to the HPX170?

Will that raise the price on the HPX170, or is something else.

I know the SDI out cams cost more, but I had thought perhaps incorrectly that SDI is digital and the cam is digital so no conversion is required.

Barry_Green
06-16-2008, 10:04 AM
Well, adding SDI and TC IN/OUT caused the price of the XHG1 to be $3,000 more than the XHA1. That seemed excessive, but -- that's the way it turned out. Similar for the Canon XLH1A vs. XLH1s, there's about a $3,000 price difference. Unlike the original XLH1 though, the 170 includes timecode and audio embedded in the stream (same as the newer G1 and H1-S).

Also, I haven't tested this but I've been assured that this works: the firewire input is supposed to pass through the component HD and SDI output jacks. Much of the 170 seems to be built using the P2 Gear's hardware, and the P2 Gear allows that, so I'm thinking this is probably true too. That would mean the HPX170 could be used as an intermediary between your edit station and your HD monitor (either component or HD-SDI), and it also means that the FireStore users could now finally monitor their clips in HD!

I'm tellin' ya, the 170 is where the party's at.

The tape deck should be a minimal-cost item, there are entire $299 cameras out there (maybe even cheaper now) that use DV tape. Even so, Jan's said the 170 should be in the same price bracket as the 200A, it does everything the 200A does (except tape) and it does a ton of things the 200A doesn't. I'm still hoping for a lower price range based on it having a smaller model number.

If, however, SDI is what's so expensive, then that bodes pretty well for the HMC150 which is largely the same camera but without the SDI (and, of course, SD-cards instead of P2, AVC-HD instead of DVCPRO-HD, and no VFR...)

David Saraceno
06-16-2008, 10:11 AM
Wasn't one of the issues with using the HVX200 for pass through the heat generated?

This isn't an issue if indeed the passthrough has been implemented?

Barry_Green
06-16-2008, 10:14 AM
That's what we were told, yes. But the P2 Gear is based (apparently) on newer hardware, and the 170 uses that, as far as I know.

ullanta
06-16-2008, 11:57 AM
Regarding DRS: This would make the 170 a definite purchase for me, if it were available in 720p30. When you folks talk about it being available only in 1080i60/720p60 does that mean:

1) On the prototypes, with perhaps fuller functionality on the production cam?
2) In some official literature (where)?
3) Possibly: available in over-60 modes of 720p30,24/1080p?

Hopefully,
Barry

Barry_Green
06-16-2008, 12:16 PM
It needs the faster frame rate. It's only available at the full speed of the system, 60P or 60i. If you wanted it in 30P, you'd have to shoot 60P and drop every other frame.

Bokes
06-16-2008, 05:19 PM
Regarding the 170 as an intermediary- does this mean I could edit in Avid and use the camera firewire in>component out to monitor in true HD output?
This is something Avid will not let you do unless you buy their $5,000 HD board upgrade.

Could this be a workaround?

Barry_Green
06-16-2008, 05:41 PM
Perhaps. Can you do that now with Avid and DV? If so, you might be able to do it with a 170 and DVCPRO-HD.

SPrimeau
06-18-2008, 06:13 PM
Perhaps. Can you do that now with Avid and DV? If so, you might be able to do it with a 170 and DVCPRO-HD.Yes, you can do that with DV. Or with some Canopus video converters.

David Shawl
06-21-2008, 11:20 PM
I saw the 170 today at Cinegear. It looks good, I love the focus line feature and the waveform. Using the joystick (a la DVX) was such a joy.

fifthblade
06-21-2008, 11:50 PM
As David also states above,
had a chance to check out the camera today at cinegear,
and it is just stunning.

i was 99% sure after reading Barry's second write up that it was gonna be my next camera - seeing it today just made me want it even more.

as an aside,
It looks and feels amazing rigged out with the Redrockmicro rods and matte box.
(And their prices are quite phenomenal!)

A match made in heaven!

Sumfun
06-22-2008, 12:13 AM
For people at Cinegear: What did you guys think of the picture? Major improvement over HVX200? How about compared to EX1?

thesnazdotcom
06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
I wish this camera would include a "tag" button, so when you were shooting an interview, and the subject said something you knew you'd use, you could hit the "tag" button, then in the editing room, go straight to those markers.

Jason Ramsey
06-23-2008, 04:04 PM
There is a similar feature to that on the HVX200 called "shot mark". I would assume that i's also included in the 170

Later,
Jason

DC
06-23-2008, 04:11 PM
I saw the 170 today at Cinegear. It looks good, I love the focus line feature and the waveform. Using the joystick (a la DVX) was such a joy.

Argh! I was at CineGear and somehow missed it! I will blame the extreme heat (anybody there knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about).

Glad to hear the HPX170 is shaping up so well. I look forward to getting one. :)

Barry_Green
06-23-2008, 04:16 PM
I wish this camera would include a "tag" button, so when you were shooting an interview, and the subject said something you knew you'd use, you could hit the "tag" button, then in the editing room, go straight to those markers.
It already has that, it's called the "text memo" feature. You can mark any shot good with the shot mark, but you can also mark spots within a clip using the text memo feature. You can assign up to 100 spots within a clip. All the P2HD cameras offer this.

Zander
06-23-2008, 04:32 PM
It already has that, it's called the "text memo" feature. You can mark any shot good with the shot mark, but you can also mark spots within a clip using the text memo feature. You can assign up to 100 spots within a clip. All the P2HD cameras offer this.

I never knew. That's a wonderful little feature.

LuckyStudio 13
06-23-2008, 07:41 PM
so its confirmed, no 50/60hz switchable :(

http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=785

Kholi
06-23-2008, 07:44 PM
That price keeps'a scarin' me. Hope it comes down to 5,299.99 in September.

LuckyStudio 13
06-23-2008, 07:48 PM
I think they all are waiting for panasonic to tell them the "lowest acceptable street price", $5995 is probably the MSRP. I hope it will still come with a free 16 gig p2 card or better still a 32 gig card :P

Kholi
06-23-2008, 07:56 PM
I think they all are waiting for panasonic to tell them the "lowest acceptable street price", $5995 is probably the MSRP. I hope it will still come with a free 16 gig p2 card or better still a 32 gig card :P

Oh, yeah I know it's the MSRP. Just that the EX3 being listed at 8320, EX1 at 6999.99 (and less than that used), 5999.99 even MSRP scares me. But I'm sure it'll be low 5's.

Septembers long off anyway, time to play the wait n'see game.

LuckyStudio 13
06-23-2008, 08:05 PM
I hope in order to counter the ex3, we will all get a free 32 gig p2 card or 2x 16 gig (even with mail in rebate) ! heheheh

iakeij
06-23-2008, 11:15 PM
so its confirmed, no 50/60hz switchable :(

http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index...roducts_id=785 (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=785)

which part of the spec com website states that it is not ntsc/pal switchable? sorry, i just want to make sure because this feature is so darn important to me T.T

iakeij

Jason Ramsey
06-23-2008, 11:30 PM
Without Pal/NTSC it should be lower priced in my humble opinion.

More and more cameras are coming with PAL/NTSC capabilities either out of the box or as a factory upgrade option, and it's something I see becoming the norm sooner rather than later.

I understand their hesitation in consideration of the option, but it's one area that this camera will be behind the times in in my opinion.

Maybe it won't matter to a lot of their customers, but I think as more and more cameras come out that do offer it, it may be a selling point that will cause someone to lean in another direction all other things being "relatively" equal.

I would pay more for this feature. I would pay for a factory upgrade of this feature (if the store price is more in line with the current HVX pricing), and it is a feature that (for me) will strongly impact my next camera purchase(s).

ah, well... Can't win 'em all.

I really hope they at least offer it as a factory upgrade option. I'd be entirely happy with that. It's there if you need it.


Later,
Jason

LuckyStudio 13
06-24-2008, 12:06 AM
I completely agreed with Jason. Think bout it, hpx 170 with 50/60 will be a perfect B cam for its bigger brothers, the hpx500, 2000....etc, which all have the 50/60 switching capabilities. Without the 50/60 features, it means u gotta buy ntsc / pal specific camera.

Before you say why not just use hpx 500 as a B cam ? Well consider ....

a) Try find a reasonable priced water housing for a big eng shoulder mounted cam

b) Hpx 170 would be perfect on the smaller and cheaper steadicam (like the steadicam Pilot).

c) Hpx 170 as B cam used with 35mm adapter for those shallow DOF shots. A Letus B4 relay alone will cost ~ $4500.

d) Car mounting a 2/3" eng camera means bigger and expensive rigs.

e) Hpx 170 would be perfect crash cam.

f) Hpx 170 can go where camera weight and camera agility are important.


JVC and Sony have 50/60 switchable stock on their cameras and Canon offers 50/60 switchable as an aftermarket factory upgrade.

So, Panasonic .... how bout it ?

Joe Lawry
06-24-2008, 01:23 AM
agh, at least make it a factory upgrade.. pleaseeeeeee

Barry_Green
06-24-2008, 10:16 AM
Factory upgrade might be the best way to go, so people who don't care won't have to pay for it, and for those to whom it's important, they can get it.

Derrick_SA
06-24-2008, 03:42 PM
I don't mind to pay for it if it is a factory upgrade, but why they did not include this makes no sense, and to be honest is a huge disapointment to me.

I'm not saying when everyone else jumps in the fire you should too. But, with the world being such a small place since the internet, people all over the world can colaborate work so easily.

So the existance of common tools is important. And other brands recognize this and make these tools available, eg. 50/60hz on the same camera.

Don't get me wrong I still prefer panasonic for many other reasons, but, this one feature, would have made the 170 so much better.

and as a side effect, us PAL country users still don't get access to 24p recording.

So I really hope panasonic makes this available as an factory upgrade,

Derrick

talteregor
06-25-2008, 10:17 AM
So here's a nifty thing I found at Cine Gear...You can output both HD-SDI AND Composite SD at the same time. This might not sound that important, but you can't output both HD and SD on the 200. A lot of lower budget productions have been using one HD monitor near the camera but can't afford multiples so we use SD monitors for the clients...this use to mean lighting with the HD monitor and then pulling out the HD plug to send a signal to the SD monitors...

No more, from now on (until everything is HD), we can send out multiple outputs in both definitions...Jan and I had an HD monitor with SDI running into it and then in the b channel plugged in a bnc from the composite jack. We then A/B'd the monitor and found a signal both times!

Kholi
06-25-2008, 11:02 AM
That's one of the things I really want. Being able to use a small onboard LCD just for framing when handheld with a 35mm adapter and being able to output a SECURE SDI signal for video village is great.

talteregor
06-25-2008, 05:23 PM
Now that's the one thing I'm not sure of. I don't know if you will be able to go out of HDSDI and Component at the same time for two different HD monitors, what I do know is you can get SD and HD at the same time with the SDI and composite jack...at least on the model that was at Cine Gear...

markyf
06-26-2008, 11:07 AM
Anyone ever deal with Vidcom in Vancouver? I bought my DVX at the DVShop in Toronto (where I live) but they aren't doing anything yet for the 170. Vidcom is taking deposits and starting a waiting list. I've never dealt with them at all. I really am keen to get this camera as soon as I can and don't want to be in backorder hell.

filmguy123
06-26-2008, 03:25 PM
That's pretty lame about not being PAL/NTSC switchable...

and I still don't see why that change can't be made, it's mostly software based and probably a small circuitry addition...

Come on Panny... seriously.

USLatin
06-26-2008, 04:34 PM
AGHHGAHHHHHHH!!!!! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

How come they can't give us DRS in 24fps?!?!? I feel like I lost a lung!
and I had never heard about the 170 having DRS till now!!! why?!?!?

seriously I need to know! please Jan

puredrifting
06-26-2008, 04:35 PM
Jan responded that it is much more than just a purely technical issue making the HPX-170 dual standard. There are warranty and retail pricing issues to be dealt with as well, although Sony and others have shown that these factors can be overcome.

Dan

ecking
06-26-2008, 04:44 PM
That's pretty lame about not being PAL/NTSC switchable...

and I still don't see why that change can't be made, it's mostly software based and probably a small circuitry addition...

Come on Panny... seriously.

Jan explained why they don't a few pages back, but I still think it's lame, it's 2008 the world is smaller, people wanna go places with their cameras.

USLatin
06-26-2008, 04:45 PM
I agree that PAL-NTSC would be a huge feature, especially for you Europeans here for film school :)

But wouldn't the DRS be THE best improvement possible?
Is it just code? I would suspect it is, I mean it has to be...

Jan, please, tell us it will be in the HPX-170. You would sell
tenths of thousands of them! It would obliterate the competition!

Barry_Green
06-26-2008, 04:53 PM
Okay, if it's not PAL/NTSC switchable, that's indeed a disappointment. But, let's just keep it in perspective though. Let's make a list of every PAL/NTSC switchable camcorder on the market, at the 170's expected price point or below:

1. Sony Z1U

Yep, that's it. That's the complete list. Nobody else offers it, and even though Sony did have it, they don't offer it in their subsequent models, the V7U and the Z7U. You have to go up to the $7790 MSRP price point to get switchability on the EX1, and even then it's not PAL/NTSC because the EX1 doesn't do either PAL or NTSC.

JVC has a little bit of it, they have 720/25P, but they don't offer NTSC/PAL switchability. And Canon has a factory upgrade option for the XLH1, I think they also offer it for the XHA1, right? So, not as-is, but as a $500 after-purchase upgrade.

So -- it would be lame of Panasonic to not offer the feature (especially after they advertised that it WOULD be possible). But it's not like the entire market has gone to NTSC/PAL switchable camcorders and Panasonic's some stubborn mule; there's really only one camera out there that offers it, and that one's interlaced-only.

I'd be fine with a factory upgrade option. But if it doesn't have even a factory upgrade option, that's the time I think it'd be appropriate to grab the pitchforks and torches.

Barry_Green
06-26-2008, 04:54 PM
As for DRS, it's my understanding that it's a hardware processing limitation. It apparently needs the faster framerate to work its magic. You can get it at 1080/60i or 720/60p, but it doesn't work at the slower frame rates.

Jason Ramsey
06-26-2008, 05:05 PM
When we talk about these cameras, don't we generally talk about the sub 10k market, so I think that's a little more accurate to compare the NTSC/PAL thing, rather than just saying cameras at or under the HPX price point.

The A1 is factory upgradeable...it is an option and has been an option on that camera for quite some time now, so let's not minimize it. It's an option, and has been one for quite some time now. Two options from Canon there, right?

Really, it would be A1, H1 (factory upgrade), Z1U, And the EX1 and EX3, right? The EX1 is obviously squared to be a direct competitor to the handheld p2 cameras as was evidenced in their silly marketing campaign a couple of years ago, so we should not exclude it from this discussion b/c it's price point is higher than the 170. It's still in the ballpark, and is obviously a competitor.

So, one could say that both Sony and Canon offer this feature at varying price points in the sub 10k range. Panasonic offers it in none of their sub 10k cameras (or we could just say, hand held form factor cameras).

So, while I agree with you in principle Barry, I think the current availability of that option was downplayed a touch. :)

Regardless, the trend certainly seems to be that the market is moving in that direction. Canon and Sony both seem to have adopted the NTSC/PAL mind set for their current and presumably future cameras in this market area. Panasonic is not.

The market is headed that way (IMO) and two of the big manufacturers offer it at a couple of different price points in the sub 10k hand held market, so.....

Later,
Jason

Barry_Green
06-26-2008, 05:55 PM
People throw around the "sub 10K" number, but I think there's a huge gulf between DVX buyers and HVX buyers, even though there's only a $2,000 price difference between 'em. So how much more of a gulf is there from a $5,200 HPX170 and a $10,000 camera? I don't see too many people struggling with a decision between an HPX170 and a, say, HPX500 ($8,000; buy batteries and a cheap lens and be "under $10,000"). It's a big stretch to put those in the same class. If someone wants to talk about $10,000 they should be talking about the HPX500, not the HPX170 -- and the HPX500 *is* switchable.

Price matters. A lot. If something costs more, it's reasonable to expect it to do more. If something costs less, I say it's not reasonable to expect it to do everything that the more expensive product does.

Therefore my assertion of comparing the 170 to products at its price point or below. Comparing it to products that are more expensive, and pointing out that the more-expensive product does more -- well, yeah. Sure. But how is that a fair comparison?

Even if you raise the price bracket to include the EX1, that makes a grand total of two cameras that do it, and even then the EX1 doesn't do it in SD because it doesn't even do SD.

I'm not "minimizing" the A1, I mentioned the A1, I just didn't remember for certain whether it had it but I said "I think they also offer it for the XHA1, right?"

So that's the point: if you want to buy a camera that does what you're asking the 170 to do built-in, well, you can't: there's only one on the market that offers it, and it's interlaced-only. If you ignore SD and stick to HD-only, then there's the EX1, but that is still $1800 more expensive (MSRP). But, if you're comfortable with 720-only, you could also get an HD110.

The factory upgrade is a different issue though. If they don't come out with switchability as a factory upgrade, that's when we would all have a major axe to grind and a case to make. If the $2,000 less expensive XHA1 has a factory upgrade option, then the HPX170 had darn well better offer it. On that I'm in total agreement.

Jason Ramsey
06-26-2008, 06:05 PM
I just want it to offer at least as a factory upgrade, and I"m happy with that.

I agree with what all you said... I'm just more thinking of all the threads that pop up here... a1 vs, hvx... hvx vs. ex1, etc, etc, etc.

Of the cameras that could be considered "competitors" the HPX170 (the cameras that potential buyers will likely also look at) the A1 (or some future incantation of it), the EX1, and the HVX200(a), and the HPX170 are generally going to be considered. Of those, only the panny cameras (as of right now) don't offer it as an option at all (be it out of the box, or factory upgrade).

I would also say that typically, once a camera manufacturer "breaks the ice" with a particular feature, it's reasonably safe to assume that they will continue the trend with all future cameras at a similar or higher price point/feature set... Meaning, we'll see a continued trend of some sort of pal/ntsc offering from canon and Sony at least, while Panny has yet to even "break the ice".

I'm in complete agreement about the factory upgrade, and would be 100% ok with that at the least. Out of the box, would be great, but at least offering it as an option to those who want it and getting on board with what I see an increasing trend is a requirement in my book.

Later,
Jason

USLatin
06-26-2008, 06:05 PM
As for DRS, it's my understanding that it's a hardware processing limitation. It apparently needs the faster framerate to work its magic. You can get it at 1080/60i or 720/60p, but it doesn't work at the slower frame rates.

Hardware processing power limitation? So the selection of the frames to be used out of the 60i, all the image processing and DRS are too much for the processor/s but take away the frame selection and/or other timing functions to get the 60i stream to line up with the target frame rate is too much... then get a faster processor!!! HECK LET ME OVERCLOCK MY 170!!! lol... I know testing stability and incompatibility for a different processors architecture is a pile of cash even for Panasonic, but there has to be a way to get a better batch of processors that can take a little higher clock!

Jan!!! PLEASEEEEEE!!!! I beg to you oh goddess of HD innovation, grant us one wish, just one more desperate race to the September finish line: Engage in talks with your processor suppliers and if you add a little to the tag EVERYONE will beg you to take their cash! I would guess that 75% of the buyers wouldn't think about it for more than 3 seconds after seeing the comparison pictures Barry has provided us... and the remaining 25% is half people that won't care and will pay and half people that will search for opinions from others and find nothing but BUY BUY BUY!!! DRS... oh... please!!!

Barry_Green
06-26-2008, 06:57 PM
I just want it to offer at least as a factory upgrade, and I"m happy with that.
Me too, and if it DOESN'T have it, that'd be just plain lame.


Of the cameras that could be considered "competitors" the HPX170 (the cameras that potential buyers will likely also look at) the A1 (or some future incantation of it), the EX1, and the HVX200(a), and the HPX170 are generally going to be considered. Of those, only the panny cameras (as of right now) don't offer it as an option at all (be it out of the box, or factory upgrade).
Among that group, yep. Agreed.


I would also say that typically, once a camera manufacturer "breaks the ice" with a particular feature, it's reasonably safe to assume that they will continue the trend with all future cameras at a similar or higher price point/feature set...
But that hasn't proved to be the case though. Sony added it to the Z1U, but then they took it away -- it's not available in the V1U or the Z7U. heck, for that matter, they added 24P to every model from the V1U on up, but on their new top-of-the-line XDCAM PDW700, they took it away. Panasonic put VFR on the 170, 200, and 500, but the 2000 and 3000 don't have it. So, no, I don't think the trend holds and every new product we kind of have to hold our breath to see what we're gonna get.

In our poll, I think it broke down to about 80% saying that either as in-the-box or as a factory upgrade, they've got to include it, right? I do hope they're listening, it'd be just silly to not have at least the upgrade option.

Adam J McKay
06-27-2008, 08:16 AM
So this has a flip feature in the lcd, but any word on recording flipped? It seems that it wouldn't be much to program in, couldnt you do it with a firmware? It just seems like a simple, yet extremely practical feature.

Jan_Crittenden
06-27-2008, 08:24 AM
So this has a flip feature in the lcd, but any word on recording flipped? It seems that it wouldn't be much to program in, couldnt you do it with a firmware? It just seems like a simple, yet extremely practical feature.

It does do a filp on the LCP, but not in the recording. To write those few lines of code that you say would make it work in the recording would require an additional 6-8 months of testing and proving that all of the other items in the display are not affected, and that it works in all of the formats and and additional encumbrance of a million or so dollars. This would translate to a higher price tag for the camera and I would need to sell more in order to pay for this increase in development cost. And the feature alone would not net me more sales. So it really isn't so easy to add stuff guys, there is a very critical balance that goes on inside of the camera and its recording device.

Hope this helps,

Jan

filmguy123
06-27-2008, 11:14 AM
Well, maybe the HPX-170a will record flipped as well, and offer PAL/NTSC switching out of the box, and DRS in more modes

Jan_Crittenden
06-27-2008, 12:47 PM
Well, maybe the HPX-170a will record flipped as well, and offer PAL/NTSC switching out of the box, and DRS in more modes


Well the HPX170a most likely will not offer NTSC/PAL switching out of the box as it is a world economy money exchange gray market issue. And the memory required to make the flipping and the DRS work in all modes would need to become cheap and small in order to fit. Good news is that is possible over the course of several years which is when an A version might happen.

Best,

Jan

Derrick_SA
06-27-2008, 03:53 PM
So Jan, do you think there is a posibility that we can pay for a factory upgrade to NTSC/PAL?

And just a side note. Grey market goods as you all know, are never backed by the official suppliers (they ofcourse run the serial number), so if you buy a grey market product and it brakes, you have a problem.

It feels very unfair that technology is held back because a few people can't play by the rules, I mean the honest guy again has to suffer because of that.

sorry for the rant, I do appreciate all the information you share with us Jan, if we don't speak our minds, Panasonic won't know how we are affected by decisions they make.

One of the big things for me is us PAL users can't get to use 24p, and yes 25p is close but it's still a 4% difference, and the Panasonic (DVX100, HVX200 and I'm sure HPX170) is THEE best camera(s) when it comes to making films look like film. WE also want 24p.

Thanks,
Derrick

Jan_Crittenden
06-27-2008, 04:45 PM
So Jan, do you think there is a posibility that we can pay for a factory upgrade to NTSC/PAL?

One of the big things for me is us PAL users can't get to use 24p, and yes 25p is close but it's still a 4% difference, and the Panasonic (DVX100, HVX200 and I'm sure HPX170) is THEE best camera(s) when it comes to making films look like film. WE also want 24p.

Thanks,
Derrick

The story isn't over just yet Derrick, there are 2 1/2 months yet at least for the US cameras, I am thinking the Europe cameras are not too far behind. I am lobbying very heavily for a Hometown upgrade at the service center. It isn't over till its over. ;-)

Best,

Jan

ullanta
06-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Hey Jan - I've done extensive market research in my immediate vicinity, and it indicates that any last-minute improvement efforts should be in getting DRS to work in 720p30!

Jan_Crittenden
06-27-2008, 05:03 PM
The Memory required for the DRS function is pretty extensive. The larger cameras have room for multiple memory sites. The HPX170 does not. I do not see this as any remote possiblity.

Sorry,

Jan

ullanta
06-27-2008, 05:12 PM
\ I do not see this as any remote possiblity.


So I figured. But... and I don't mean to be argumentative, and understand if you can't answer this... but how can memory OR processing be a problem in 720p30 vs 720p60? The image size is the same; thenumber of frames that need to be processed per time is halved....?

Kholi
06-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Does this mean, if it becomes pal switchable, an NTSC HVX will shoot 1440x1080 instead of 1280x1080 in Pal mode?

cordvision
06-28-2008, 12:10 AM
For me personally, the ability to switch between pal and ntsc would be a strong reason to get the hpx170. (I am from europe but live in the US at the moment.). My question is: Why can other brands offer this feature and panasonic can't. Other brands also have to deal with gray market cameras but they offer ntsc/pal switchable cameras anyway...

Derrick_SA
06-28-2008, 01:02 AM
thanks Jan, we appreciate all the effort you put in to try and accommodate our requests.

- Derrick

Xtopher
06-28-2008, 01:23 AM
So heres a question with no definate answer... Will the HVX200A go down in price again when this comes out?

Jan_Crittenden
06-28-2008, 04:10 AM
Does this mean, if it becomes pal switchable, an NTSC HVX will shoot 1440x1080 instead of 1280x1080 in Pal mode?

It would be the footprint that the pre-filter makes it. MAny people think that this means more resolution. What you get out of the HD-SDI in either the 60 HZ or the 50 HZ version is 1920 X 1080. The footprint of the recording only reflects the pre-filter and what the codec can handle in the time frame it has to manage the data.

Best,

Jan

SPZ
06-28-2008, 05:28 AM
The story isn't over just yet Derrick, there are 2 1/2 months yet at least for the US cameras, I am thinking the Europe cameras are not too far behind. I am lobbying very heavily for a Hometown upgrade at the service center. It isn't over till its over. ;-)

Best,

Jan

Go, Jan! I'm one of those that wouldn't mind paying the extra 500 (like Canon does) for the switch upgrade. And having people factory enablee this function will probably help stop the big volumes grey market sales...

Hope we get some other extra surprises! I would really hope this comes out in September over here (Hong-Kong)... Is it going to be a September worldwide release?

Thanks, Jan. Keep it up!

Aroon_Narayanan
06-28-2008, 05:54 AM
So heres a question with no definate answer... Will the HVX200A go down in price again when this comes out?
Personally, I doubt it. At B&H, the 200A is already reduced to $5200 from an MSRP of $6000. And while the 170 may have all the shooting assist features, as well as HD-SDI, the 200A has its tape drive, so I'm thinking they'll end up at an equal price.

Aroon_Narayanan
06-28-2008, 05:55 AM
However, I do hope you are right, Xtopher. Either that, or the HPX170 starts lower than the 200A when it comes out.

Adam J McKay
06-28-2008, 07:06 AM
its on B&H for $5995.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_DVCPRO_HD_P2_CAMCORDER.html

LuckyStudio 13
06-28-2008, 08:24 AM
Is there a way to hook up the hpx170 and use pro batteries like the IDX ??

jonnyh1968
06-28-2008, 09:02 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a compromise to enabling DRS.

Basically, there are only so many bits, or so many tones, to go around. Like the Varicam, you sacrifice the closeness of the tonal gradations when you enable the DRS. Think of the extreme where a camera has a 2 bit DSP. That's 4 shades (tones of gray) that it can accommodate - If you set the white and black levels further apart (technically a greater dynamic range) you are essentially stretching those 4 tones further apart from each other thus resulting in a more posterized look - your jumping too far from one tone to the next and if you go too far it looks very unnatural. There are only so many bits to go around. This is why there is a switch.

JH

doondoon
06-30-2008, 09:26 PM
Looks like a nice little camera. A HUGE improvement over the 200A.
Just a side note... next time (in a few years) PLEASE Panasonic lose the lens (or make it optional).

PSSST people will still buy your camera and will spend MORE to boot.

jpsheets
07-01-2008, 08:07 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but it would be great to have this baby out in time for the next fest. What a great way for a bunch of us to put it through it's paces.

USLatin
07-01-2008, 11:15 AM
And the memory required to make the flipping and the DRS work in all modes would need to become cheap and small in order to fit. Good news is that is possible over the course of several years which is when an A version might happen.

Best,

Jan

Jan, thanks for your clarification!

So how much memory might that be? I mean, how much memory is necessary to perform the pulldown in 720p if that's what you guys do, and to alter the timing for the frame rates that don't line up? It can't be much, just enough to hold at most a few altered duplicates of the frames which are at their highest just 1.2MP ~12bit... but all of this shouldn't matter, you could have a new PCB designed that made better use of space or that had a hard connection to a minuscule PBC to hold a bigger module of the same memory, and all you'd have to test for is shock resistance and the current memory controller to find out. There is a lot of space in the body of the HVX so there surely is some space left inside the HPX, certainly for something as small as the new PCB and hard connection necessary. The only other design necessary could be a tweak on the inside of the body piece which would also require shock testing and perhaps temperature testing for the whole camera.
I assume from your message that you feel confident in the processing power not being a limitation. I hope that is the case then I hope there might be an early release of the 200a... maybe we see a 200b later with the rest of the stuffs you got in store for us? What a perfect world that would be.

jaopro
07-03-2008, 05:23 PM
Does the 6 pin Firewire 400 port on the back of the HPX170 enable users to transfer footage directly to any Firewire 400 compatible portable hard drive? That would be so sick!

Thanks in advance!

SPZ
07-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Wait, does this mean the LCD flip doesn't work in progressive modes?

Barry_Green
07-04-2008, 08:48 AM
Does the 6 pin Firewire 400 port on the back of the HPX170 enable users to transfer footage directly to any Firewire 400 compatible portable hard drive? That would be so sick!

Thanks in advance!
Yes and no. Yes you can transfer footage to a firewire hard disk, but the hard disk has to supply its own power. The 6-pin port on the 170 does not output bus power.

Barry_Green
07-04-2008, 08:49 AM
Wait, does this mean the LCD flip doesn't work in progressive modes?
Of course it does. Why would you think it doesn't?

ecking
07-04-2008, 12:27 PM
Yes and no. Yes you can transfer footage to a firewire hard disk, but the hard disk has to supply its own power. The 6-pin port on the 170 does not output bus power.

Wait, are you saying I can take my lacie d2, plug it into a wall, put the other side into the hvx and offload, no computer? Was that possible with the hvx?

USLatin
07-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Ecking, yes it was, you just couldn't check the footage or anything so not a lot of people did that.

What's this whole deal with the nano-drives or whatever that was that I head people talking about with the 170?

ecking
07-04-2008, 02:34 PM
Ecking, yes it was, you just couldn't check the footage or anything so not a lot of people did that.

What's this whole deal with the nano-drives or whatever that was that I head people talking about with the 170?

That is news to me! Do you know how many hvx jobs I've been on where we just had a loader running back and forth? Granted I don't own the camera but I've used enough that I'm surprised I didn't know that.

I like that feature, a lot.

USLatin
07-04-2008, 04:35 PM
but having a loader is best Ecking, he can double check the footage, unless you keep plugging the HDD into the laptop in which case it is best to just keep it all plugged in and dump though the Laptop anyway

ecking
07-05-2008, 09:32 AM
Yeah having a loader is good for checking footage, but the straight to hd method is gonna be useful if I do pick up my own 170.

alpi69
07-06-2008, 05:14 AM
Barry, do you know if the SDI Out is switchable between SD and HD like with the EX-1? You could dump to a DigBetadeck in SD for networks that still use SD.

dbwolfe
07-06-2008, 04:00 PM
I searched the forum but couldn't find an answer. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but just want to confirm that you can record to P2 and capture from HD-SDI simultaneously? I have an AJA ioHD and would like to capture ProRes 10bit when possible but also always record to P2 for backup. will the timecode spit out over HD-SDI match the P2 timecode? Also, does anyone know if ProRes HQ & regular are both 10bit with different compression levels or is HQ 10bit and regular 8bit? I've found conflicting info on the internet. the apple white paper only mentions 10bit and should be the most reliable source methinks.

Barry_Green
07-06-2008, 10:31 PM
Barry, do you know if the SDI Out is switchable between SD and HD like with the EX-1?
Yes, it is.

Barry_Green
07-06-2008, 10:33 PM
I searched the forum but couldn't find an answer. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but just want to confirm that you can record to P2 and capture from HD-SDI simultaneously?
Yes, of course.


Will the timecode spit out over HD-SDI match the P2 timecode?
It has embedded timecode in the HD-SDI data stream; I can only assume that it will match the P2 timecode frame by frame. I haven't tested it, but I also can't fathom why they'd have separate timecode...

USLatin
07-07-2008, 12:19 AM
Yes, of course.


It has embedded timecode in the HD-SDI data stream; I can only assume that it will match the P2 timecode frame by frame. I haven't tested it, but I also can't fathom why they'd have separate timecode...

It can't be horribly off... I simply couldn't see Panasonic dropping that sort of thing on the 170.

ecking
07-07-2008, 07:24 AM
I searched the forum but couldn't find an answer. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but just want to confirm that you can record to P2 and capture from HD-SDI simultaneously? I have an AJA ioHD and would like to capture ProRes 10bit when possible but also always record to P2 for backup. will the timecode spit out over HD-SDI match the P2 timecode? Also, does anyone know if ProRes HQ & regular are both 10bit with different compression levels or is HQ 10bit and regular 8bit? I've found conflicting info on the internet. the apple white paper only mentions 10bit and should be the most reliable source methinks.

I'm almost positive both are 10bit.

Joe Lawry
07-08-2008, 05:46 PM
Just had a chance to have a play with a preproduction HPX171 - the pal model,

First impressions - nice. It sits in your hand perfectly and is so well balanced.

Yes - the LCD is a huge improvement over the 200, with EVF detail turned off the LCD looked the same as the EVF detail turned on on an HVX - with it turned on - Wow.

The new focus assists are great.

The waveform and vector scope are very nice.

NTSC Pal Switchable - still no positive answer. We might have a hope.

JCFILMS
07-08-2008, 08:41 PM
Were you able to shoot anything with it, and if so, how was the quality?

Joe Lawry
07-08-2008, 08:48 PM
No, i didnt have any p2 cards with me and shooting off stuff on a still early preprod model isnt always a great idea.

The quality i saw on the lcd was awesome, a lot less noise than im use to seeing on my Hvx. Then again.. i was only judging off the lcd screen.

The camera still has a bit of a way to go design wise... theres a lot of very strange button designs on the one i saw.. the power button for instance.

benjiblanco
07-09-2008, 07:12 PM
Does anybody know if we can sync timecode between 2 cams without having to switch modes on 1 cam, lose a few frames, therefore have to film the lcd, etc etc.
Thought this was such a great selling point in the hvx200 that they didnt quite manage to pull off. Be nice to have a little less math to do in editing.

Everts
07-09-2008, 07:14 PM
I need Pal/ Ntsc switchability because I work with both formats everyday .This is the Only reason I would purchase Hpx 170 over a Canon XHA1.
I need this functionality so that I can use the pretty progressive images the camera produces. If not canon xha1with upgrade here I come.
So can someone please tell me will the hpx170 have this feature or not .
How difficult is it to answer this ?
And please Panasonic dont offer it as an upgrade just put it in there .
Swicthability = Globalization = $$$$$

Joe Lawry
07-09-2008, 10:21 PM
Dont go buy an XHA1 just yet.. you may regret it.

thats all im saying.

Everts
07-10-2008, 06:14 AM
That's why I want to know about the swicthability. BecauseI'm drooling about the Hxp170 and I dont understand why there is no definitive answer.
I just wouldn't trust the camera if this feature became a last minute decision . And if they decide this next month or so would the camera work properly. I believe that this feature should be tested thoroughly.
And if its something you can just pop in the camera... Panasonic leave in there.
Please think ATSC. All formats baby.


OK back to work.:undecided

Barry_Green
07-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Please think ATSC. All formats baby.
ATSC doesn't support 50Hz frame rates. It's only 23.976/29.97/59.94.

USLatin
07-10-2008, 01:28 PM
So from the lack of response, my estimation of the work-load of R&D required, and money, and the little time left for the release, then I suppose that the DRS in 23.976fps is never going to happen on the 170 right Barry?

Everts
07-10-2008, 01:42 PM
ATSC doesn't support 50Hz frame rates. It's only 23.976/29.97/59.94.


ATSC is perfectly capable of outputting PAL signal . Your edit, movie or whatever you produce just needs to be digitized or properly encoded.
http://www.atsc.org/guide_default.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards

So your HDTV with atsc tuner is capable of playing back 25 or 50HZ frames per second .

SPrimeau
07-10-2008, 02:28 PM
So from the lack of response, my estimation of the work-load of R&D required, and money, and the little time left for the release, then I suppose that the DRS in 23.976fps is never going to happen on the 170 right Barry?Just read Jan's Posts on page 14 of this thread.

Barry_Green
07-10-2008, 03:08 PM
ATSC is perfectly capable of outputting PAL signal . Your edit, movie or whatever you produce just needs to be digitized or properly encoded.
http://www.atsc.org/guide_default.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards

So your HDTV with atsc tuner is capable of playing back 25 or 50HZ frames per second .
I don't believe this is accurate. The ATSC standard adopted by the FCC for DTV doesn't say anything about 25Hz or 50Hz. You can read document A53 (http://www.atsc.org/standards/a53.html) and you'll see there's no mention of 25Hz or 50Hz. The ATSC didn't standardize 25Hz/50Hz until document A63. The FCC adopted 18 DTV formats, none of which are 25/50Hz, and no ATSC tuner sold in the US (at least) needs to support 25 or 50Hz, as far as I know. And I know for a fact that my HDTV, a Sony XBR, won't play any 25Hz or 50Hz signals (which was most depressing to discover, I can assure you.)

The ATSC Table 3 denotes all 18 formats offered and supported by ATSC tuners, and those are:
4:3 640x480 @ 24p, 30p, 60p and 60i
16:9 704x480 @ 24p, 30p, 60p and 60i
4:3 704x480 @ 24p, 30p, 60p and 60i
16:9 720P 24p, 30p, and 60p
16:9 1080 @ 24p, 30p, and 60i

PAL/25Hz/50Hz isn't included in the ATSC DTV tuner standard as approved by the FCC.

USLatin
07-10-2008, 03:17 PM
Yea, but I was asking about it more in depth in page 15 or 16


Jan, thanks for your clarification!

So how much memory might that be? I mean, how much memory is necessary to perform the pulldown in 720p if that's what you guys do, and to alter the timing for the frame rates that don't line up? It can't be much, just enough to hold at most a few altered duplicates of the frames which are at their highest just 1.2MP ~12bit... but all of this shouldn't matter, you could have a new PCB designed that made better use of space or that had a hard connection to a minuscule PBC to hold a bigger module of the same memory, and all you'd have to test for is shock resistance and the current memory controller to find out. There is a lot of space in the body of the HVX so there surely is some space left inside the HPX, certainly for something as small as the new PCB and hard connection necessary. The only other design necessary could be a tweak on the inside of the body piece which would also require shock testing and perhaps temperature testing for the whole camera.
I assume from your message that you feel confident in the processing power not being a limitation. I hope that is the case then I hope there might be an early release of the 200a... maybe we see a 200b later with the rest of the stuffs you got in store for us? What a perfect world that would be.

ullanta
07-10-2008, 03:23 PM
A pesky note:

Individual users have the option to select how many messages are displayed in each page. Thus, these references using page numbers don't work for all users. It'd be better to specify the message number (or a rough message number), which is constant for all users...

Sorry to be a pain, but that's the way it is!

Jan_Crittenden
07-10-2008, 03:27 PM
So from the lack of response, my estimation of the work-load of R&D required, and money, and the little time left for the release, then I suppose that the DRS in 23.976fps is never going to happen on the 170 right Barry?


It cannot happen on this camcorder. The memory required for this is not in the body.

Thanks,

jan

USLatin
07-10-2008, 03:50 PM
Ok, thanks Jan! Sorry about beating a dead horse.

I hope that by the time the 170a comes out that the DRS will not only be included for all frame rates but also that it is the one used on the 3000 and not a toned down version. What's the word on that? Will the DRS on the 170a be every bit as good as on the top cameras?

Jan_Crittenden
07-10-2008, 03:59 PM
Ok, thanks Jan! Sorry about beating a dead horse.

I hope that by the time the 170a comes out that the DRS will not only be included for all frame rates but also that it is the one used on the 3000 and not a toned down version. What's the word on that? Will the DRS on the 170a be every bit as good as on the top cameras?


Hi,

The HPX170 has not even delivered, so looking to include something on its replacement is more than premature. Keep in mind that there is a price point to all items. Just yesterday I got a tour of the "corner room" in the factory where all of the parts and pieces for a product are placed priced and tabulated. It was pretty facinating. Each piece is calculated on its cost of manufacture, the cost of R & D behind the software, if that is a chip, the cost of assembly, etc. The HVX200 has roughly about 4500 pieces to it. The big cameras have about 10,000. Trying to make the small camera do what the big cameras do is sometimes possible but not always. At this time the technology and the cost factors prohibit DRS in 24P on the less expensive camera. Will that always be true, well Variable Frame Rate wasn't possible on a small camera until we had the technology that made that happen, we will likely lead the way again, but as it stand the replacement for the AG-HPX170 isn't even on the table or in the room for that matter. ;-)

Hope this helps,

Jan

Everts
07-10-2008, 04:21 PM
PAL/25Hz/50Hz isn't included in the ATSC DTV tuner standard as approved by the FCC.

Bummer indeed !

joemiked
07-11-2008, 11:37 AM
whoa!!! everything looks very interesting!!!! man you can geek for days what should i aim for ,as far as new cams go.hvx hpx im still dvx!!
whoa!!!?there all so cool!!!
m.d.

puredrifting
07-11-2008, 05:24 PM
Talk about fanatics! You guys are complaining about features that you have never even used on a camera that isn't even out yet? Only on DVX User!

I love my HVX-200 so I know that the HPX-170 is going to kick butt. Really looking forward to this one.

Dan

USLatin
07-11-2008, 10:16 PM
Hi,

The HPX170 has not even delivered, so looking to include something on its replacement is more than premature. Keep in mind that there is a price point to all items. Just yesterday I got a tour of the "corner room" in the factory where all of the parts and pieces for a product are placed priced and tabulated. It was pretty facinating. Each piece is calculated on its cost of manufacture, the cost of R & D behind the software, if that is a chip, the cost of assembly, etc. The HVX200 has roughly about 4500 pieces to it. The big cameras have about 10,000. Trying to make the small camera do what the big cameras do is sometimes possible but not always. At this time the technology and the cost factors prohibit DRS in 24P on the less expensive camera. Will that always be true, well Variable Frame Rate wasn't possible on a small camera until we had the technology that made that happen, we will likely lead the way again, but as it stand the replacement for the AG-HPX170 isn't even on the table or in the room for that matter. ;-)

Hope this helps,

Jan


Thanks for the additional info Jan!
I really hope you guys do lead the way cause I feel like Panasonic is sorta my girlfriend or something... hehe... I didn't mean for that to sound weird in any way though. I am, to be honest, a little worried about Scarlet.. I know, it isn't out yet, but I am wondering if there are any plans from Panasonic to make 2K cameras.. I know, I shouldn't have even brought it up at all... and they are completely different beasts... for TV distribution all you need is 1080p, but a little more than the final output is always the way to go and I would love to be able to stay loyal, I am comfortable here you know. How cool would it be if out of the usual suspects only Panasonic calls Red's raise... it would only make sense if you were the ones to do it first since here is where we got the DVX, then the HVX... I want it to happen... can it happen any time soon? Or is Jim just pumping money like crazy and losing most of it just to make a name for himself in this industry?

puredrifting
07-13-2008, 05:29 PM
cause I feel like Panasonic is sorta my girlfriend or something... hehe...

U.S. Latin, we gotta have a talk... This is creepy and weird on so many levels ;-) My HVX is more like a dog, faithful, fetches my paper but unlike a dog, it doesn't leave "presents" on the lawn.

Dan

davidreimers
07-18-2008, 03:01 AM
can't wait to get more specific facts on the camera.

hopefully it will be available in Europe the same time when it comes out in the US

USLatin
07-18-2008, 12:12 PM
U.S. Latin, we gotta have a talk... This is creepy and weird on so many levels ;-) My HVX is more like a dog, faithful, fetches my paper but unlike a dog, it doesn't leave "presents" on the lawn.

Dan


Well, I am sorry if I creped you out, but just so you don't feel too weird about it, I have never tried humping my HVX... yet. :)

And, Jan, I wanted to say one more time, sorry about bringing Scarlet up, but once this camera is also out it will have a direct and unavoidable impact on the HPX so I feel I am the bad guy for talking about it but I can't help myself.

puredrifting
07-19-2008, 04:12 PM
Well, I am sorry if I creped you out, but just so you don't feel too weird about it, I have never tried humping my HVX... yet. :)

ROFL! You so crazy!

Dan

LuckyStudio 13
07-19-2008, 06:44 PM
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/ag-hpx170/AGHPX170PE_Pre.pdf

Not good. No mention of 50/60hz nor ability to get factory upgrade on 50/60hz

Joe Calabrese
07-22-2008, 08:40 AM
Is the 1080i/p mode going to be 1440x1080, or 1920x1080 like the Sony XDCAM EX?

William_Robinette
07-22-2008, 09:17 AM
It's going to be 1280x1080p like the HVX and all everything else that shoots DVCproHD as that is the spec for the codec.

USLatin
07-22-2008, 11:44 AM
What? No! Don't scare me William, it will be full 1920x1080 like the HVX, not 1440 or 1280... unless you are talking about the sensor's pixel count before the pixel shift step takes place in which case I don't remember the exact native pixel count but as far as I know the sensor didn't get any additional pixels, it just got better... right?

KMR
07-22-2008, 11:50 AM
What? No! Don't scare me William, it will be full 1920x1080 like the HVX, not 1440 or 1280... unless you are talking about the sensor's pixel count before the pixel shift step takes place in which case I don't remember the exact native pixel count...

The image CREATED in the camera will be 1920 x 1080. The image RECORDED in DVCProHD will be 1280 x 1080 (as per the DVCProHD codec). Just like the HVX.

Neither of these has to do with the sensors' pixel count. And there is no "pixel shift step"--the chips are permanently situated so that the green photosites are in the places where the registers are for the blue and red chips.

SPrimeau
07-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Using the DVCProHD codec, it will be 1280 x 1080 for NTSC formats and 1440 x 1080 for Pal formats.

The HD-SDI output will be 1920 x 1080.

USLatin
07-22-2008, 03:45 PM
Ok, so the recorded is 1280 x 1080? So DVCPRO HD is automatically unfolded or up-rezzed or something?!?! I shouldn't even ask... ok, well, William I had a weird feeling about it since you never give anything but excellent advise man!
You guys just spare me the whole thing :)

puredrifting
07-22-2008, 05:41 PM
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/ag-hpx170/AGHPX170PE_Pre.pdf

Not good. No mention of 50/60hz nor ability to get factory upgrade on 50/60hz


I believe that Jan has already stated that the camera will not be switchable. What was still being contemplated was making the switchability available as an extra cost service center mod.

A lot of people want that but Panasonic has their reasons for not taking the same route as Sony. Not saying I agree with it but if it bugs you too much, buy an EX-1, right? ;-)

Dan

Barry_Green
07-22-2008, 09:32 PM
As far as I know no definitive statement on switchability or upgradeability has been made yet.

Jason Ramsey
07-22-2008, 09:45 PM
<beating dead horse> Major letdown if it's not at least factory upgradeable to switchability </beating dead horse>

later,
Jason

Barry_Green
07-22-2008, 09:46 PM
Agreed. That'd be just lame.

Derrick_SA
07-23-2008, 07:07 AM
puredrifting, I'm saying this with respect, BUT ARE YOU NUTS!!!!! he he he, buy a EX-1 if i want switchability, no way,

To me the HVX, and probably the HPX too is THEE camera to have for shot movies, and what not...

All the others aren't bad, but I personaly feel the look you get, and not to mention DvcProHD codec panasonic uses, at this point can not be beaten in that price range,

IN SHORT, please panasonic make the camera switchable, even if it is a factory upgrade for extra cost, we will pay!!!

thanks,
Derrick

LuckyStudio 13
07-23-2008, 12:18 PM
yeah, actually EX3 will be a very very nice contender indeed just that it sucks to have to mix p2 with sxs.


I believe that Jan has already stated that the camera will not be switchable. What was still being contemplated was making the switchability available as an extra cost service center mod.

A lot of people want that but Panasonic has their reasons for not taking the same route as Sony. Not saying I agree with it but if it bugs you too much, buy an EX-1, right? ;-)

Dan

puredrifting
07-23-2008, 06:36 PM
puredrifting, I'm saying this with respect, BUT ARE YOU NUTS!!!!! he he he, buy a EX-1 if i want switchability, no way,

To me the HVX, and probably the HPX too is THEE camera to have for shot movies, and what not...

All the others aren't bad, but I personaly feel the look you get, and not to mention DvcProHD codec panasonic uses, at this point can not be beaten in that price range,

IN SHORT, please panasonic make the camera switchable, even if it is a factory upgrade for extra cost, we will pay!!!

thanks,
Derrick

But what are you going to do if the camera is not switchable and there is no factory modification offered?

Dan

impressive creations
07-24-2008, 12:02 AM
Hey Guys and Gals.. My first post. Just had my DVX 100B take a poop at a wedding this weekend and the repair guy said he has to replace the whole tape desk. ouch!!! $900. Anyway, made me realize I need a back up camera so here I am looking into the near future. The 170 looks amazing. So did I read some where it take SD cards as well as P2 cards? I was looking at the 150 as well. That takes SD cards but not P2 right? Is there any difference in the two cards other then price?

So does, the 150 take SD cards? Also, what is the SDI out for?

Thanks all,

b.p.

cordvision
07-24-2008, 01:35 AM
The HPX170 doesn't record to SD cards, only to P2 cards. The SD card is for saving scene files etc. You can connect a monitor over SDI or record an uncompressed signal to a computer (you need some kind of capture card that has SDI in).

Derrick_SA
07-24-2008, 07:22 AM
you'll probably be best of with the HMC150, longer record times are a lot more affordable on the SD cards. and for event recording the camera will do very well.

if you have the cash for a 170 and P2 cards, by all means, it's an awesome camera.

- Derrick

sylvanimate
07-26-2008, 04:58 PM
Amazing article I had a few questions for Barry or anyone else that might be able to answer?
I recently did a test of the EX-1 and the HVX200. The EX records low- rez SD-proxy footage that can be linked with and associated to the hi-rez HD footage. This allows SD streaming in post environments in which multiple users may be accessing the on-line footage concurrently.

I have researched that the HPX2000-3000 record a low rez proxy that post houses have been able to use as a pre render- edit until the render of a master needs to be submitted.

Does anyone know if the HPX-170 will be capable of doing the same?

I run a camera/tech dept that is an all Panasonic house. We are facing a dilemma with the P2 workflow and the post dept has asked me to look into it for them. They have 32 FCP edit bays in which the end user is able to access multiple data streams simultaneously. The P2 footage is a big problem during the on-line edit process because of the large data footprint required for P2 (DVC PRO HD codec) to scrub through the timeline via proxies are less processor intensive. Currently they must convert the footage using the H.264 quicktime codec but then must create and edit a new project and convert to DVC-PROHD for the final mixdown.

Barry do you know if Panasonic has any plans to incorporate low-rez proxies across their whole product line? vs. just the high end hpx2000-3000 models?

Thanks

Jan_Crittenden
07-26-2008, 05:03 PM
Hi at this point in time the boards and onboard processors ar still a little big to fit into a small camera. So unfortunately for now the answer is no the small cameras do not have this.

Best,

jan

sylvanimate
07-26-2008, 09:28 PM
Thank you Jan for answering this for me. I wonder how Sony's EX-1 is capable of it???maybe it is the long GOP XD-cam format? It could be the SxS cards are able to hold proxie info with the GOP compression?......this is disappointing news as we will be upgrading our army of DVX100B's and I was hopeing the the HPX170 would be the answer for us. :-(

In case anyone is interested in the HVX200 comparison I posted on vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1412880).

Barry sorry to deviate from the thread a bit but this puts a big whole in my plan to recommend to my CEO the purchase of 20 HPX170's. I guess I'll be looking to Sony since our bandwidth issues are not going to go away anytime soon.

Jan_Crittenden
07-27-2008, 04:41 AM
Thank you Jan for answering this for me. I wonder how Sony's EX-1 is capable of it???maybe it is the long GOP XD-cam format? It could be the SxS cards are able to hold proxie info with the GOP compression?.......

I was not aware that the SxS does proxy either, I will have to check it out on Monday. I am looking at a folder made with the EX1, perhaps you are looking at the video file itself. It identifies it self to the outside as MPEG4, but that is the wrapper, not the content. I mean the difference between the EX1 and the DVCPRO HD is about 65Mbs. Their video file looks much smaller.

And with the EX1 you will have the rolling shutter and long gop issues. And if you are working any kind of news, keep in mind that there is no pre-record, nor is there the ability to go from review a couple of clips to record without a power-down and power-up.

Additionally the ability to put in metadata of any concrete nature is also not possible on the SxS camera.

Getting proxies on the small cameras is challenging, but you can make them in post.

Best,

Jan

frobozz
07-27-2008, 05:47 AM
I saw someone asked this in the "First Look" thread, so I'll add it here for completeness' sake: any chance Panasonic will be paying more attention to the CCD centering with the lens this time around? I love my HVX200 but have finally proven that the skew is what is preventing me from getting a clean image through my M2/MicroX. Yes, I have vignetting on the left side like everyone else.

I may well have to sell this camera and get something else. But I like everything else about the camera, so the HPX170 would be a perfect replacement... as long as they promise to actually line the parts up properly this time. Obviously testing that on this early prototype is of no real value as far as production cameras go... but anyone with contacts inside the company manage to get some acknowledgement that they recognized the problem with the 200 and will be addressing it with this one? (I can understand why even if that's the case, they wouldn't be touting it in the literature...)

Duncan

sylvanimate
07-27-2008, 03:04 PM
I was not aware that the SxS does proxy either, I will have to check it out on Monday. I am looking at a folder made with the EX1, perhaps you are looking at the video file itself. It identifies it self to the outside as MPEG4, but that is the wrapper, not the content. I mean the difference between the EX1 and the DVCPRO HD is about 65Mbs. Their video file looks much smaller.

And with the EX1 you will have the rolling shutter and long gop issues. And if you are working any kind of news, keep in mind that there is no pre-record, nor is there the ability to go from review a couple of clips to record without a power-down and power-up.

Additionally the ability to put in metadata of any concrete nature is also not possible on the SxS camera.

Getting proxies on the small cameras is challenging, but you can make them in post.

Best,

Jan
Jan, I have misspoken the EX-1 footage creates a proxy within the XDcam browser not on camera. I figured this out last night while talking on the HVX-200 forum.

gabrielflorit
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
And if you are working any kind of news, keep in mind that there is no pre-record, nor is there the ability to go from review a couple of clips to record without a power-down and power-up.

This is not true. You can set the preview button to display all of the previously recorded clip. Record, stop, hit the preview button, start watching your clip, and if you need to start recording hit the record button. The camera will stop displaying the previously recorded clip. Hit record again and you're recording. All of this can be done without switching from the Record mode to the Display mode - no power-down/power-up necessary.

10s
07-27-2008, 07:15 PM
I saw someone asked this in the "First Look" thread, so I'll add it here for completeness' sake: any chance Panasonic will be paying more attention to the CCD centering with the lens this time around? I love my HVX200 but have finally proven that the skew is what is preventing me from getting a clean image through my M2/MicroX. Yes, I have vignetting on the left side like everyone else.

I may well have to sell this camera and get something else. But I like everything else about the camera, so the HPX170 would be a perfect replacement... as long as they promise to actually line the parts up properly this time. Obviously testing that on this early prototype is of no real value as far as production cameras go... but anyone with contacts inside the company manage to get some acknowledgement that they recognized the problem with the 200 and will be addressing it with this one? (I can understand why even if that's the case, they wouldn't be touting it in the literature...)

Duncan

This issue must be addressed for the new camera to have credibility with the 24P Cinema crowd. There are two basic groups of users, those using the camera as-it-is, and those using adaptors for a cinematic look. Not addressing the centering issue will cause the adaptor group to shop elsewhere so they can produce proper images. That's just how it is. It's the end of July, it's late in the game. What path will Panasonic choose?

jpsheets
07-27-2008, 08:54 PM
I've used the RedRock M2 with my HVX since it came out and never had this problem.

PerroneFord
07-27-2008, 09:16 PM
And with the EX1 you will have the rolling shutter and long gop issues.


No, you don't HAVE to have long GOP issues. But while you're mentioning it, do you have any XDCam footage from real-world shooting that shows the long GOP issue? I keep hearing about it, and yet I keep seeing pro shooters bringing back jaw-dropping footage of news, action, and cinematic elements with nary a problem.

Seems like a red herring to me, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to see it.

Buck Forester
07-27-2008, 10:35 PM
And with the EX1 you will have the rolling shutter and long gop issues.


Jan, with all due respect I keep hearing this from you (and Barry) and others. You "will" have rolling shutter and long gop issues? I'm just saying this from experience, not heresay, that after many dozens of hours of handheld shooting I have yet to having rolling shutter issues. Why would you say this? Is it 'possible' to have rolling shutter issues? I'm sure it is. I would say being around lots of close-range full-frame flashes will probably trigger some rolling shutter issues, but trust me, you must, the EX1 doesn't go around skewing and wobbling like some of you, for some odd reason, imply it does/should/will. It simply doesn't. I've shaken the thing while recording, I've panned faster than I'll ever use for footage, and I'm not seeing this horrendous skew you keep talking about.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't care if you think this way (I mean, the way you talk about the EX1 I'm assuming it's part of your job to dismiss CMOS and promote CCD, which is fine, you're a rep), but I honestly hate to see people who are honestly seeking non-biased information come away thinking that the EX1 will shoot jello-vision and skew like a drunken sailor (no offense to drunken sailors). It's just not the case. I think highly of Panasonic and their cameras, they're great, and I like CCD-based cameras, I don't care about brand names nor do I care that Sony makes the EX1... I just know the EX1 is fantastic (so is the HVX - I'm not biased) and from many hours of shooting handheld running footage, I can attest with all honesty that skewing and wobble and these CMOS horrors you speak of are not even minutely the issue you make them to be. I would've taken my EX1 back in a heartbeat if that were the case. I didn't buy my EX1 because it's "Sony", I could care less. If Panasonic made it, or Canon or JVC or Kellogg's, I would've bought it just the same. I use my EX1 in field conditions and I would not put up with any problematic skewing or wobble if I saw it. That's the God's honest truth.

I don't say this to persuade anyone to go with the EX1. I don't care what people end up choosing. All these cameras are great and you'll be happy with any of them... there are some slight pros and cons to each, but they're all great. For those reading this who are contemplating a new purchase, just know these CMOS and Long Gop horror stories are way overblown (perhaps barring the full-frame flash issues if you do a lot of that kind of stuff). People would be returning these EX1's all over the place if they displayed these problems as stated here. Rock-n-roll, baby.

frobozz
07-28-2008, 05:09 AM
I've used the RedRock M2 with my HVX since it came out and never had this problem.

It's trivial to "zoom past this problem" which is the usual advice to anyone complaining about it. But I'm a wide angle lens fanatic, so I'm pretty picky about getting the full view angle out of my lenses.

I've spent a lot of time analyzing and adjusting my rig to try to get the full view angle. With so many adjustable points on the M2 and MicroX, it leaves an infinite number of ways to set it up wrong and cause similar or worse problems... to which the advice is always to zoom in farther! But I worked through all that, and got a stunningly sharp, wide, clear image exactly like I wanted... except for that (*&^%%$%^^& dark left edge. After quite a bit of time spent trying to figure out what M2 or MicroX adjustment was needed to get rid of it, I finally proved it was the misaligned HVX sensor.

http://www.vimeo.com/1408867

http://www.vimeo.com/1408880

So yeah, it's possible to get great results with an M2 and misaligned HVX200, as long as you don't mind all your lenses being some significant percentage longer effective focal length. I was hoping for better.

Duncan

booth
07-28-2008, 05:50 AM
Jan, with all due respect I keep hearing this from you (and Barry) and others. You "will" have rolling shutter and long gop issues? I'm just saying this from experience, not heresay, that after many dozens of hours of handheld shooting I have yet to having rolling shutter issues. Why would you say this? Is it 'possible' to have rolling shutter issues? I'm sure it is. I would say being around lots of close-range full-frame flashes will probably trigger some rolling shutter issues, but trust me, you must, the EX1 doesn't go around skewing and wobbling like some of you, for some odd reason, imply it does/should/will. It simply doesn't. I've shaken the thing while recording, I've panned faster than I'll ever use for footage, and I'm not seeing this horrendous skew you keep talking about.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't care if you think this way (I mean, the way you talk about the EX1 I'm assuming it's part of your job to dismiss CMOS and promote CCD, which is fine, you're a rep), but I honestly hate to see people who are honestly seeking non-biased information come away thinking that the EX1 will shoot jello-vision and skew like a drunken sailor (no offense to drunken sailors). It's just not the case. I think highly of Panasonic and their cameras, they're great, and I like CCD-based cameras, I don't care about brand names nor do I care that Sony makes the EX1... I just know the EX1 is fantastic (so is the HVX - I'm not biased) and from many hours of shooting handheld running footage, I can attest with all honesty that skewing and wobble and these CMOS horrors you speak of are not even minutely the issue you make them to be. I would've taken my EX1 back in a heartbeat if that were the case. I didn't buy my EX1 because it's "Sony", I could care less. If Panasonic made it, or Canon or JVC or Kellogg's, I would've bought it just the same. I use my EX1 in field conditions and I would not put up with any problematic skewing or wobble if I saw it. That's the God's honest truth.

I don't say this to persuade anyone to go with the EX1. I don't care what people end up choosing. All these cameras are great and you'll be happy with any of them... there are some slight pros and cons to each, but they're all great. For those reading this who are contemplating a new purchase, just know these CMOS and Long Gop horror stories are way overblown (perhaps barring the full-frame flash issues if you do a lot of that kind of stuff). People would be returning these EX1's all over the place if they displayed these problems as stated here. Rock-n-roll, baby.

I agree, I was using our new EX1 hand-held a lot of the time yesterday and on reviewing the footage I'm unable to find any problems with it. Some of the footage was shot by someone who didn't know about the rolling shutter and so was whip panning and was no way trying to compensate for it. And it looked fine.

So I think the skew issue is greatly exaggerated. Long GOP XDCam works as well as HVX200 intraframe from putting them side by side on a FCP prores timeline. The only problem with the imaging of the camera may well be for people shooting near flash photography or strobe lighting.

Like a stuck record I'll say it again. I've got a HVX and an EX1 so hold no bias to either company. I'm hoping my next camera will be a Red if anything.

ecking
07-28-2008, 09:56 AM
skew like a drunken sailor (no offense to drunken sailors)

Just because you put a disclaimer doesn't make it less offensive. Myself and drunken sailors everywhere demand an apology!

Buck Forester
07-28-2008, 11:37 AM
Just because you put a disclaimer doesn't make it less offensive. Myself and drunken sailors everywhere demand an apology!

ecking, please accept my apologies for the drunken sailor comment. I will send you a skewed ship so you can drink and remain standing upright. :beer: Party on.

Jan_Crittenden
07-28-2008, 12:23 PM
This is not true. You can set the preview button to display all of the previously recorded clip. Record, stop, hit the preview button, start watching your clip, and if you need to start recording hit the record button. The camera will stop displaying the previously recorded clip. Hit record again and you're recording. All of this can be done without switching from the Record mode to the Display mode - no power-down/power-up necessary.

If I want to show more than the last clip, you most definitely are in a power down, power up mode. I thought I was clear when saying a couple of clips.

Best,

jan

Sumfun
07-28-2008, 12:34 PM
but I honestly hate to see people who are honestly seeking non-biased information come away thinking that the EX1 will shoot jello-vision and skew like a drunken sailor (no offense to drunken sailors).

Jello all over the world demand an apology, too.

Swardo
07-28-2008, 01:51 PM
meh. If you have time to view more than the last clip you have time to powerdown/ powerup. Seems to me that most of the EX-1 "flaws" that keep being brought up are essentially non issues in the real world. The only one I see that could be a problem is the rolling shutter/ flash issue and that is only an issue for the event shooter.

I own a HVX and from my eyes the EX-1 is incredible. I love my HVX but am also confident to admit that the images coming out of the EX-1 are often mind blowing

Biz
07-29-2008, 11:28 AM
Jan, Barry or anybody that can answer..

Do you know if the lens diameter/bayonet mount lens hood size of the HPX170 will be the same as the DVX100??

It would be nice to be able to use my Century Optics bayonet mount wide angle attachments for my DVX100 that I already own on this new camera that is coming out..

Any reply would be appreciated thanks..
Biz.

hdimages.ca
07-29-2008, 02:13 PM
yes some in the know let us know . need to know about lens . please.

Barry_Green
07-29-2008, 02:25 PM
The answer is a qualified "yes, they are the same." Meaning, I took a DVX's lens hood and mounted it on an HPX170, and I put the 170's hood on the DVX, and they did both fit.

So the answer seems like yes, but I didn't have any Century/Schneider lenses to try it with, so that's why it's a "qualified" yes.

The bigger question is whether the optics of your SD Century lenses will be able to perform on an HD HPX170. I don't have the answer to that.

hdimages.ca
07-29-2008, 02:40 PM
so that you might get a better picture with 2x tel with the hvx200a 82mm glass than the hpx170 72mm 2x tel glass . does size matter?

Barry_Green
07-29-2008, 03:15 PM
Size does matter some; the 170's maximum iris opening at full telephoto is f/3.0, vs. f/2.8 on the HVX200. It's a very small difference in sensitivity, but it's there.

bonkerz
07-30-2008, 09:24 AM
Has anyone read this article on DV.com about P2? Sounds to me like it has alot of bugs...Anyone else have any input?? Almost makes us change our minds about getting the 170.

Barry? Your thoughts about this article?

http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=196604238

Barry_Green
07-30-2008, 02:09 PM
No bugs at all. He said that they never lost a frame of footage or had any problems.

They used FCP, which causes you to have to needlessly, wastefully duplicate files -- but that's an FCP problem, not a P2 problem. Someday FCP will catch up with every other NLE on the planet. Until then, it can be overcome by using the Raylight or MXF4QT plug-ins within FCP.

He said:

This was kind of a crushing blow to our budget both monetarily and time wise
Again, it's only due to using FCP in its native state. Had he used Raylight or MXF4QT, that would have been 100% avoided and they could have edited the footage instantly. Or, had they used Avid, or Premiere Pro, or Vegas with Raylight, or SpeedEdit, or Liquid, or EDIUS, or Autodesk, or ... well, any other editor, they would never have even faced the issue; all those editors have native MXF support. What they ran into is strictly an FCP limitation, which is easily overcome, and has nothing to do with P2 itself.

As for bumping the slate, that again is no problem, if you're using the user clilp name feature (which they weren't, because again they're using FCP which doesn't use the user clip name). But raylight would have sorted the clips by user clip name and solved any question.

As for "dailies", every frame of footage is instantly playable as dailies! Except, of course, when using FCP, sigh -- but again, easily and instantly overcomeable with Raylight or MXF4QT. Their mistake was in not having someone versed enough in the workflow. They could have saved enormous amounts of pain had they known to ask.

People sometimes get on my back for complaining about the stupid, idiotic, inefficient, and buggy FCP "Log & Transfer" function. This article is an ideal example of why I rant against it. It unnecessarily created a huge hassle for these folks, all of which could have been solved by following my #1 piece of advice for FCP users: don't use Log & Transfer. Use Raylight, or MXF4QT, or HD Log's MXF proxy file function, ANYTHING but Log & Transfer, and every one of their problems would have magically just *disappeared*.

The advice is simple: if you want great P2 integration, use EDIUS or Premiere Pro. If you want to use FCP, just consider it mandatory to get MXF4QT or Raylight.

bonkerz
07-30-2008, 04:55 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Barry.. I'll pass this on to my filmmaking partners...
BTW... Great Sound DVD.. we are enjoying it very much...

Now... Isn't it time for a "Lighting" DVD??? ( hint hint )

One with a good section for lighting at night (woods,fields...etc)

ullanta
07-30-2008, 05:40 PM
Great idea... I'd go for the lighting DVD!

bonkerz
07-30-2008, 06:42 PM
Yeah .. If they did a lighting DVD I'd buy it in a min.... We are about to film a comedy vampire movie and it would have come in handy for that one for sure... As it is now, as soon as we can get our HPX170 we will just have to do alot of test shots till we get it right.....

jpsheets
07-30-2008, 09:19 PM
I second the lighting DVD idea. I know there are already a couple out there, but I've never been impressed with any of them.

Derrick_SA
07-31-2008, 05:39 AM
yeah, lighting DVD would be awesome.

I would buy it even before bonkerz does!!! :-)

- Derrick

bonkerz
07-31-2008, 09:47 AM
We will be using Final Cut Pro so, which program do most people use with their FCP? Do you recommend the Raylight or the MXF4QT ? Or are they about the same ?

Buck Forester
07-31-2008, 02:00 PM
I would definitely vote for a Lighting DVD with my dollars.

GIVE ME A LIGHTING DVD, OR GIVE ME DEATH!

USLatin
07-31-2008, 02:35 PM
Hey Barry, do we have a sticky with the known and verified facts about the 170 that's updated?

Stevens
08-01-2008, 07:58 AM
For those who need a lighting course soon, I suggest "DV Enlightenment" DVD from DVcreators.net, very good and useful. It's quite basical, but if you have to add more light, you need a large crew and a lots of money! Hope it helps!:Drogar-Dum(DBG):

arno
08-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Stevens,

You better start a new Light topic...

atlfilmguy
08-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know if the HPX170 will come with a P2 card?

Jan_Crittenden
08-05-2008, 11:37 AM
In the US it wil come with a 16GB P2 card and Barry's new HVX-HPX book.

Best,

Jan

Jason Ramsey
08-05-2008, 11:48 AM
able to confirm or deny anything yet regarding PAL/NTSC? :evil:

later,
Jason

frobozz
08-05-2008, 11:51 AM
OK I'll top that: able to confirm yet that the lens and CCD are aligned properly? :evil::evil:

Duncan, for whom that is now the single most important factor in selecting a new camera.

Derrick_SA
08-05-2008, 01:31 PM
I'm with Jason, any news on PAL/NTSC?

I'm getting a stomic ulcer from worrying about this, I desperatly do not want to move to a different brand of camera.

- Derrick

Joe Lawry
08-05-2008, 02:04 PM
People need to stop worrying about the ntsc pal thing.

Derrick_SA
08-05-2008, 02:30 PM
I'm just asking, not starting an argument, but why should we stop worrying about it Joe?

thanks,
Derrick