Is HVX practical for concerts?

[tduncan]

I guess I could answer this myself but would appreciate experience and feedback from other folks to help me think this through and in case there's a solution I'm not thinking of. Here's the situation...

I am shooting a concert and want 3-4 cameras covering it. There are two 1hr sets with 2hr break in between. It's for a documentary and the whole doc is being shot 1080 24Pa so I'd like to stay with that. Not sure what other options exist without going to higher end cameras like DVCPRO HD tape (more $$$) or affordable tape solutions (HDV) which would only be 720p, correct?

So this means shooting P2 and I have not found anybody who owns enough P2 to shoot 60 minutes uninterrupted. Then, we will need to offload 3-4cams X 60Gb in two hours before the next set starts. After the last set there is plenty of time for offloading but I want to shoot interviews too so we'll need an efficient workflow going throughout the day.

Should I simply rent 4 firestores FS-100s ? Do they offload faster than P2? Are they reliable enough these days to trust my footage to? Or should I just rent 180Gb P2? It doesn't seem like the P2 Store is going to work having only 60Gb.

Given all the variables and a limited budget, what solution could you suggest?

thanks, td

[Dirty Uncle Bob]

A possible option would be to have a runner to dump cards live. Since P2 is hot swappable, you could shoot with 2 cards per camera, when one fills up and begins recording on card 2, pop out card 1, hand it off, dump it, bring it back, repeat with card 2. That will give you the time you need to record your additional content during the break.

Firestores are also a reliable option.

My $.02.

[tduncan]

It appears from the FE website and reading around that FS-100 will NOT record 1080 and having a 5400rpm drive that sounds right. So FS-100 is NOT a solution?

[Kyle Stebbins]

Firestores have gotten pretty bad reviews and I really don't believe they will be comparable to P2 cards. (Disclaimer: I do not speak from experience with firestore)

However, I'm on a shoot right now for TimeFest and we are shooting on the RED ONE. The trend has been to shoot a bit, run the card to the Mac Pro and trade it with a new card, and continue that pattern over and over.

In your situation, you only need to shoot for an hour continuously... this will be simple. Shoot for a long time, maybe 30 minutes, pop one of the cards out (preferably a 16gb or 32gb), drop the data off, and after one reload you will be good for the rest of the set.

Easy stuff, man. Good luck!

[wgzn]

ive shot a few 1 hour+ concerts with my hvx and fs100. never had a single issue. shot, organized, transfered, done.

[mcgeedigital]

I have head less than stellar experience from the fs-100.

I would rent enough 32gb cards so you don't have to worry about offloading at all.

[wgzn]

seems like the fiestore is kinda like lacie products. some have had no problems others nothing but.

i just happen to be one of the lucky ones who got a good one. im considering selling it by the way, if anyones interested...

[SonicStates]

I have a firestore and apart from a few bits of buggy behaviour it has performed well BUT specifically in relation to concerts I have heard reports that large sound pressure levels can make the unit a bit dodgey. Just what I heard though.
I would recommend going P2 all the way. FS are good when you have a chance to reshoot stuff if the unit has a moment :) . P2 is rock solid.

[tduncan]

I have a firestore and apart from a few bits of buggy behaviour it has performed well BUT specifically in relation to concerts I have heard reports that large sound pressure levels can make the unit a bit dodgey. Just what I heard though.
I would recommend going P2 all the way. FS are good when you have a chance to reshoot stuff if the unit has a moment :) . P2 is rock solid.

Agree with all, P2 is ROCK solid. I have 48G myself but the shooters responding to my ads dont have but 1, maybe 2 16Gers.

What kind of rates and where in LA/OC can I rent up to 6 - 16ers? Does EVS have them?

thanks everybody,
td

[heavyG]

I run with 3-32's, 2-8's & 2-4's never had a problem with running out of space during a shooting gig.

-- Begin Rant --
I've been amazed by the number of HVX owners I've come across with all kinds of expensive (and often un-needed) toys in their kit, and then they only have one battery and one card. Plus a whole lot of whining and crying about battery life and how long they can shoot before having to back up.
-- End Rant --

I'd help you out but I'm in Toronto.

G.

[Erik Olson]

Duncan,

I would rent a set of three cards per camera - 16GB might be a good option as you'll get about 35 minutes over two at 1080p. The offload can be accomplished through a central laptop to external drives on-site. Conversely, using the 32s gives you the one hour you need in-camera, but the offload, should you need to do it if things go long, will take a verry long time.

It would be easiest for your editor if you "ISO" each camera's offloads by using 4 or 8 (as duplicate simultaneous) external drives for this purpose or using an offload utility like P2Genie to manage file names to keep things separate. We use P2Genie for all of our laptop managed shoots. It is much easier and elegant to use than P2CMS in the field.

Don't forget to jam your HVXs to each other and, as heavyG stated, have two or more big bricks for each camera at minimum.

e

[MDKfilms]

My two cents..
It is hard to suggest something to you when the budget is unknown. However, I shoot firestore 90% of the time and have not had any issues. If your budget allows the hiring of a P2 wrangler who knows what he is doing then go with P2. The firestore can record 1080/24pa without a problem, and if you rent with version 4.0 you get the variable frame rate.

Where did you get a "48G" P2 card?

To HeavyG,
I have 6 dvxuser batts and 5 firestore batts, and I still want more:)

[Ted Spencer]

Where did you get a "48G" P2 card?

That would be 3 16GBs, or a 16 and a 32, or 6 8GB's....you get the idea.

[MDKfilms]

AHHHHHHHHH, failed math:). If the women don't find you smart, they should at least find you handy;)

[Kholi]

I've done a 4 cam HVX shoot with 8gb P2 Cards. I organized all of the assets and had it worked out to where I would have about three cards to do a continuous roll for each camera.

The live event ran twice at about 2 hours each time. You can do it but it's friggin' annoying.

[Jason Wilson]

we ussually run one camera into a laptop to save on cards...

and then setup a staion to dump cards there.... thats the only way to do it unless you want to spend alot on card rentals

also the dvx upconverts great for B-cams in your production

[tduncan]

we ussually run one camera into a laptop to save on cards...

and then setup a staion to dump cards there.... thats the only way to do it unless you want to spend alot on card rentals

also the dvx upconverts great for B-cams in your production

I'll check today on P2 rentals. If I need 3 16G'ers per camera then I'll need to rent about 6 more. If that's way expensive then I would have to go with a couple of b-cams shooting HDV like the JVC or Sony or Canons.

Anybody have suggestions on which camera from that list blends best with HVX ?

thanks again for all the feedback. td

[Spotmen Inc.]

I have used Firestores for over a year, great product. Most of the problems folks have with these units seem to be self inflicted, operator error.

However, I would never use one for a concert. The loud music, specifically the drums will cause the recorder to malfunction and ruin parts of the footage. It clearly states in the manual that vibrations and very loud noises can cause this. I was doing a music lip sync video and my drum close up's were bad. All other shots were perfect, so it does take an extreme bass drum hit at close range to screw the recorder up but it can and does happen.

[Jason Wilson]

here is an ungraded 720p Concert clip (3 HVX's + 2 Uprezz DVX) i think the dvxs 24pA work great for B cams....that way you keep it all in the family

http://exposureroom.com/members/JasonWilson.aspx/assets/82215caeab494664a8c175fdabaf5632/

[drdimento]

It appears from the FE website and reading around that FS-100 will NOT record 1080 and having a 5400rpm drive that sounds right. So FS-100 is NOT a solution?



Firestores have gotten pretty bad reviews and I really don't believe they will be comparable to P2 cards. (Disclaimer: I do not speak from experience with firestore) . . . . Easy stuff, man. Good luck!

I have personal experience with the Firestore FS100 and it was a baaaaad experience.


Extra battery to have to deal with.
Another cable and device attached to the camera adding weight and reducing hand-ability.
Still has to be exchanged from the FS100 to some hard drive for NLE editing just like cards and thus no gain there.
More weight to deal with let alone more parts to pack.
Set up isn't the simplest in the world either.
The camera doesn't have a clue what is going on with the drive with regard to battery life or remaining HDD space . . which means that YOU don't either.


For us the 3 card swap is the slickest as mentioned above . . Record to Card 1 and when it flips over to Card 2, remove Card 1, slip in Card 3, offload Card 1 and stick it in Card 2's slot when Card 2 is full and flips to the #1 slot with Card 3.

Using this latter configuration, I actually put a laptop at my feet or on a chair/table beside me and do it myself on the fly for such and event where the camera might be stationary AND with the free Panasonic download software, you can Format the card when offloaded. The file folders can be set up on an external USB or Firewire HDD and in between copy to a second drive if a 100% back up is needed. Moreover, you can edit right from that/those drive(s).

[drdimento]

. . . I have heard reports that large sound pressure levels can make the unit a bit dodgey. . . . I would recommend going P2 all the way. FS are good when you have a chance to reshoot stuff if the unit has a moment :) . P2 is rock solid.

I agree that P2 is solid. Our few experiences (rent before buying) were bad experiences. One the FS100 lost the camera just before shoot time and on that camera we lost all the footage and of course it was the MAIN camera not the B roll side AND another was a wrong setting on the FS100 and we ended up recording a codec format that was on the menu which NOT EVEN Firestore supports (thanks Edius for bailing us out on that one) AND a dying battery during the shoot that we didn't have a clue was happening . . . and thus . . . 3 for 3 was enough for us to say . . seek another solution . . P2 - YES !!

[drdimento]

. . . If the women don't find you smart, they should at least find you handy;)

Cute . . RED GREEN right ??

[drdimento]

. . . Most of the problems folks have with these units seem to be self inflicted, operator error. . . .

Agree . . BUT . . self or machine . . it's still a failure and lost media time. :o(

[aaron.willman]

Firestores are not that good unless you're on a tripod, and tethered to a wall socket/power generator. the batteries that come with them are tiny, and even the replacement batteries are a bit unreliable. They are fragile as all get-out, too. FS are optical drives, so if you somehow drop that sucker, it's toast. Not to mention they have inputs/outputs on them that you have to be careful not to bump, or you've ruined the connection.

it's awesome to have all that space to record, but i think they need a little more work to perfect. you're better off using either using your HVX200 as tethered to a computer, or just using a duel adapter from duel-systems in San Jose to download your footage from your express card slot . They are cheap and effective... running your pockets for about 119.99 each. that's a lot better than the $1500+ hard drive that Panasonic offers.

[tduncan]

...AND with the free Panasonic download software, you can Format the card when offloaded.

I MUST get this software. My biggest unresolved issue has been not being able to format the cards during swap-out scenarios without interrupting the shooter. I see this software on the Panasonic website (P2 card format station?) Is it compatible with the Duel adapter?

Also, does the camera firmware for 16G cards work with the 32G cards or must I update the camera again?

thanks again, tom

[drdimento]

As far as I know it WILL format via the adapter as it looks for and finds the P2 card and formats it thusly. Takes about 5 to 12 seconds (PCMCIA) but be patient for it to finish (takes a couple steps) and when it is totally finished it will say Operation Complete (or something similiar :o)

Regarding the P2 16GB update matter, from what I recall reading, that took care of the 32GB also, it was for 16GB and above. But maybe someone else can jump in here to be certain but I do recall reading that.

[tduncan]

The Panasonic site only lists Windows as OS for the formatter. Trying to remember, but I think this is why I never had it before.

What solutions exist for MAC that can format and possibly assist with offloading P2?