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Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Click Here to read the article (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hpx170/)

bikefilms
04-18-2008, 02:41 PM
The Security cable attachment sounds great for us producers who travel a lot. I've been slingin' a motorcycle wheel-lock through the HVX200's top handle. It feels sturdy, but the lock is heavy and clunky. I'm looking forward to using a smaller laptop cable instead.

-andrew burke


...

22. Security Cable Attachment Hole. Probably not a big deal, but if you need to lock down the camera so it doesn't get stolen, there's now a dedicated mounting point for a security cable.
...

Cees Mutsaers
04-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Barry, are you sure that the 170 as the 200A is a half stop faster than the 200 since the glass of the 170 is smaller (72 mm vs 82 mm of the 200A) ???

Huy Vu
04-18-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm somewhat confused about that Focus Assist Graph function. It doesn't seem to tell you the area of the image that is in focus, but the image as a whole? For example, if you're using a 35mm adapter and you would prefer that the background is in focus rather than the foreground, then how would the graph interprets this and vice versa?

MikeA
04-18-2008, 03:19 PM
I can't imagine they've even hinted at an MSRP yet, have they?

Thanks!
Great pre/review

Kholi
04-18-2008, 03:37 PM
I think the only two ways I could be disappointed about this cam would be A ) Late release date and B ) High price.

I hope it comes in at a solid 5k or 5.5k.

Mark Williams
04-18-2008, 03:39 PM
This is the camera I have been waiting for. The only minus is the short tel lens but this can probably be overcome by a good tele-extender. I have one question though. How would one go about using a n onboard waveform monitor for scene setup. I have always used zebras and white balance. Anyone care to explain the process or refer me in the right direction.

Luis Caffesse
04-18-2008, 04:08 PM
This means uncompressed HD at 10-bit and 4:2:2.

Did you hear that from Panasonic?
Just wondering if that's confirmed info, or if you're assuming it will be the full signal.
I guess it wouldn't make any sense to give us teh HD-SDI after the compression...but just checking.

Kholi
04-18-2008, 04:11 PM
Did you hear that from Panasonic?
Just wondering if that's confirmed info, or if you're assuming it will be the full signal.
I guess it wouldn't make any sense to give us teh HD-SDI after the compression...but just checking.

Good point. I didn't EVEN think about that. Makes for some yummy options for recording tethered.

Jared Meyer
04-18-2008, 04:31 PM
9. HD-SDI output through a proper locking professional BNC connector (and, yes, the HD-SDI has embedded time code and audio). This means uncompressed HD at 10-bit and 4:2:2.


Can someone talk about this a little more? Does this mean we could be getting that (theoretical) "Hydra" performance? Or am I not understanding the feature...?

DC
04-18-2008, 05:40 PM
Well, I'm sure diggin' this upcoming HPX170. :) Unless something else trumps this at the same approx price point, this will be my next cam. Scarlet, yeah yeah, I know . . . that's a ways off and might still not be the right camera for me anyway.

poweredbyjolt
04-18-2008, 05:53 PM
I saw a video on of Jan from panasonic talking about the 170 and she said it will be the same price as the HVX200a MSRP is $5999.00 but street retail will be around $5299.00.

Basically if you want a tape drive you miss out on all the sweet 170's features. So stoked on this new camera, I hope the low light/noise reduction is good!

oh here is that video about the 170 very informative -
http://www.freshdv.com/podpress_trac...nic_hpx170.mov

DC
04-18-2008, 06:09 PM
http://www.freshdv.com/podpress_trac/web/2022/0/freshdv_nab08_panasonic_hpx170.mov

Try that link instead.

Isaac_Brody
04-18-2008, 08:26 PM
This is awesome, amazing how much they listened to the wishlist and made an already good camera great.

Leo Versola
04-18-2008, 09:32 PM
15. Built-in WAVEFORM MONITOR. This is so fantastic. It's almost like having DV Rack built-in to the camera now! The waveform monitor is the ultimate tool to use for judging exposure; it basically replaces the zebras and the light meter. It lets you know exactly how the camera's exposing. Very, very cool. Also, the waveform monitor is sooo much nicer than even the one on my $3400 BT-LH80W monitor. It's a lot higher resolution. This is sweet.

16. Built-in Vectorscope! My $3400 monitor doesn't even have this. A vectorscope lets you mathematically analyze how the colors are being rendered. Nice.

17. Focus Assist stays on. The HPX170 includes the same magnified focus assist as the HVX200, but on the HVX it "times out" after 10 seconds. Now with the 170, you turn it on or turn it off with the press of a button. Minor upgrade but a nice usability upgrade.

17. New Focus Assist Graph. The big 2/3" HPX500 doesn't have the magnified focus, it uses a "histogram" to mathematically display focus (by graphing the high-frequency detail). It works very well on the HPX500. The HPX170 now includes this feature.

18. New Focus Assist Bar. This one is kind of a no-brainer focus assist -- a small little bar, a few pixels high, shows up in the lower 1/3 of the LCD. As you turn the focus ring, that bar grows longer or shrinks smaller. The more in-focus you are, the longer the bar is. So the goal is simple: turn the focus ring unti lthe bar is maximized.

19. Multiple Focus Assists. All these focus assists can be used simultaneously or individually. With all three on, your display gets quite cluttered, but if you can't get razor-sharp focus using all three of these, you need a trip to the optometrist. :thumbsup:


So Barry, this all is great news but since you say that razor-sharp focus is now possible with the 170, does that greatly lessen the need for an external monitor such as the BT-LH80W? How much value-add is there from the focus-in-red and pixel-for-pixel over and above the HPX-170's new focusing aids? Also, when you quote the $3400 for the Panny, I'm assuming that includes all the accessories and power options, correct? The reason I'm asking is because I've seen it for under $2100 from some board sponsors and am very close to getting one for the focusing aids it provides.

Lastly, did you happen to notice any options for external focus/zoom/iris control? I'm guessing that they haven't changed anything. And although you've stated a number of times in various posts that the EX1 is in a different class, overall what's your guess on how the 170 stacks up against it in terms of low light sensitivity, sharpness and noise?

BTW, thanks for your great coverage; I'm getting pretty dang fired up about this cam as I'm sure a heck of a lot of other people are!

Cheers,

Kholi
04-18-2008, 10:09 PM
Noooo 5999.99? It's worth it, I was hoping it'd come in at an MSRP less than that so the street price might hit 5400 or so.

We'll see though!

Luis Caffesse
04-18-2008, 10:12 PM
Noooo 5999.99? It's worth it, I was hoping it'd come in at an MSRP less than that so the street price might hit 5400 or so.

We'll see though!

MSRP on the HVX200 is (and has been) $5995, and I got mine brand new from Spec Comm about a year ago for around $5300

So I think there's a good chance you'll be able to get below that $5400 pricetag.

Kholi
04-18-2008, 10:18 PM
MSRP on the HVX200 is (and has been) $5995, and I got mine brand new from Spec Comm about a year ago for around $5300

So I think there's a good chance you'll be able to get below that $5400 pricetag.

That'd be the sweetness. Here's to hurrying up to wait.

Leo Versola
04-18-2008, 10:50 PM
Jeez, I don't know about anyone else but I've been holding out on upgrading to a new cam since Sept '07 which will make it one LONG year of waiting if the HPX-170 is released on schedule... My options at that time were the current HVX-200, the Canon XH-A1 or the soon-to-be-released EX1.

I don't usually like being on the bleeding edge nor the trailing edge of things so I was in sort of a pickle. On top of that, with NAB looming in the near distance, it made a lot of sense to just wait it out since I didn't really need to buy a new cam right away. As we've seen, the EX1 has had it's share of 'teething' problems. And, as many of us suspected, an overdue update to the HVX-200 has been announced, albeit short of some people's expectations, which only served to confirm my decision to wait it out.

In any case, barring any serious shortcomings uncovered in the coming months, I will definitely buy an HPX-170 without further ado based on what I've heard so far. As much as I, and many others, are intrigued by the RED Scarlet, it unfortunately seems many, many months away before we see stable, commercially available units.

Sumfun
04-18-2008, 10:58 PM
Barry,

Thanks again for doing a great job of keeping us informed. Just a few questions for you:

Waveform monitor: Is it possible to view the waveform monitor (or some type of histogram) while viewing the picture at the same time? This would be helpful if the light changes.

Focus assist: Do you know if the 170 will have something like the focus in red feature? The focus assist graph and bar are okay, but they don't really tell you which part of the picture is in focus. (The other option would be for Panny to upgrade the LCD, but we know that didn't happen).

Kholi
04-18-2008, 11:02 PM
I asked this before, but forgot where: How does the Waveform work here? It's built into the LCD or is it something being fed to the LCD? And, is there a chance that it'll run through the video outputs?

Excuse the ignorance.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:12 PM
Barry, are you sure that the 170 as the 200A is a half stop faster than the 200 since the glass of the 170 is smaller (72 mm vs 82 mm of the 200A) ???
Not 100% certain. As I said before, I gotta test 'em side by side to know for sure.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:14 PM
I'm somewhat confused about that Focus Assist Graph function. It doesn't seem to tell you the area of the image that is in focus, but the image as a whole? For example, if you're using a 35mm adapter and you would prefer that the background is in focus rather than the foreground, then how would the graph interprets this and vice versa?
On the HPX500 it has a crosshair on the screen that tells you the area that you're focusing in on.

On the 170, I don't know if it has that or not. The way they had this particular 170 configured, all three focus assists were on simultaneously. They told me that you can pick and choose; if you chose only the histogram, I'd bet there's a crosshair that comes up. (We couldn't see it because if it's there, it's under the magnified window).

Even so, it seems like it's measuring focus in the area in the dead center of the screen.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:16 PM
I can't imagine they've even hinted at an MSRP yet, have they?
The two hints I got were "priced comparable to the HVX200A" and "slightly less than the HVX200". My interpretation on that is that the MSRP will probably be somewhere around $5795 or even down to $5500. Street price should be a couple hundred less than the HVX200A's street price, accordingly.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:17 PM
How would one go about using a n onboard waveform monitor for scene setup. I have always used zebras and white balance.
There are lots of articles you can google for, but I'll do a detailed waveform article sometime soon (with "soon" meaning when I can get to it and hopefully before the 170/150 hit the shelves!) :thumbsup:

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:20 PM
Did you hear that from Panasonic?
Just wondering if that's confirmed info, or if you're assuming it will be the full signal.
Er, well, yes it's assumed, but it can't really be anything else. It's 19-bit internal processing, uncompressed, that is converted to analog and output on the component port of the HVX200. It would be unfathomable to think that they would then compress it and then uncompress it before outputting it on the HD-SDI port...

Now, I guess they could somehow downsample to 8-bit and then pad it back up to 10-bit before outputting it, but... why? It's all processed in 19-bit as is. And HD-SDI demands 10 bits. The EX1 puts out 10 bits. The XLH1 puts out 8 bits, with two "padding" bits, so I guess there's a chance the 170 does so as well, but it just doesn't seem logical.

Oh well, I'll test it when I can and report back.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:23 PM
Can someone talk about this a little more? Does this mean we could be getting that (theoretical) "Hydra" performance? Or am I not understanding the feature...?
Well, not really. It's sort of like halfway to Hydra.

Hydra gave us the potential of unlocking 1080P or even 2K at up to 60fps. That would be amazing. And HD-SDI won't do that.

But, on the other hand, Hydra was giving us uncompressed 10-bit video, and HD-SDI will be giving us that.*

Prior to this, the HVX gave us 8-bit compressed video out its firewire port, or uncompressed analog video. HD-SDI is uncompressed high-def digital video.

(* = I have to triple-check that it's an actual 10-bit).

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:32 PM
So Barry, this all is great news but since you say that razor-sharp focus is now possible with the 170, does that greatly lessen the need for an external monitor such as the BT-LH80W?
Lessen the NEED? Yes. Lessen the desire? No.

Do you NEED an external monitor? I'd argue that the HVX200 doesn't NEED one, I've used it for over two years before I finally broke down and bought the monitor. You can focus very well with the HVX's focus assist. But a good external monitor is heavenly. The LH80 pushed me over the edge by offering three major features: pixel-for-pixel, focus-in-red, and a waveform.

Now, the 170 offers two of those three (basically). So yeah, it makes an external monitor a little less mandatory.

Will you still want one? Oh yeah. Will you be able to pry mine away from my cold dead fingers? No way. But do you need one? Well, I'll put it this way: only you can answer that question. I never needed it before, but I sure did want it. I just couldn't find one that I felt like paying for; the Marshall is a mediocre monitor, and the others just didn't offer anything compelling. But now, I've got it and I'm not looking back.

But I wouldn't tell any budget-strapped indie that they needed it. Yes it'll make your life so much easier, the bigger screen is so nice to work with, the pixel-for-pixel is simply delightful, etc. But I can pull focus on an HVX200 very well even without the monitor, and if you take the time and the effort, you can too.


Also, when you quote the $3400 for the Panny, I'm assuming that includes all the accessories and power options, correct? The reason I'm asking is because I've seen it for under $2100 from some board sponsors and am very close to getting one for the focusing aids it provides.
I'm quoting retail. $2700 + $650 for the SDI option; street price is of course much less ($2100 for the monitor itself, etc). You don't have to get the SDI option; I got it because I was foolishly thinking I'd use the monitor with my Red. Now, seeing that the 170 has HD-SDI, I'm glad I got the SDI option. But for a 170 or 150 or 200A you wouldn't need the SDI option. You might prefer it, but you wouldn't need it.


Lastly, did you happen to notice any options for external focus/zoom/iris control?
All of the above. It uses the same external ports as the 200 and 200A and 100B and 150.


And although you've stated a number of times in various posts that the EX1 is in a different class, overall what's your guess on how the 170 stacks up against it in terms of low light sensitivity, sharpness and noise?
I haven't put them side by side, so I can't say for sure. But based on the numbers I ran before, I think it's entirely possible that the 170 will match the EX1 for sensitivity (in 1080P mode) and will come a lot closer to matching it in noise performance. In 1080i mode the EX1 will be about a stop more sensitive. In sharpness there's no difference that I could find between a 200A and a 200, and the 170 uses the same chips, so I'm not expecting it to be any sharper, which means the EX1 would still hold a noticeable advantage in sharpness. The 170 will close the gap (or eliminate it) in sensitivity, noise, and smear performance. The EX1 will maintain its edge in sharpness. But the 170 even widens the gap in price difference, it should probably street at $1500 to $1800 less than the EX1.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:34 PM
Noooo 5999.99? It's worth it, I was hoping it'd come in at an MSRP less than that so the street price might hit 5400 or so.

We'll see though!
My bet is a street price of $4999 from day one. If the HVX200 has an MSRP of $5999 and a street of $5200, and the 170 has an MSRP of $5795 (my guess), then the street should be about $200 less, so $4999. But, as you say, we'll see.

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:38 PM
Waveform monitor: Is it possible to view the waveform monitor (or some type of histogram) while viewing the picture at the same time?
I begged for this. It's probably not possible. The waveform on the 170 takes up probably 80% of the screen. It's luscious and smooth and big enough to be useful, but accordingly it dominates the screen. So what I asked for is: can we have the waveform on the LCD, and the full frame image on the viewfinder? That would be the ultimate ideal situation. But, it's probably not possible to route two different displays like that.

So, in a case like that, no -- it's either picture, or waveform. They can do both on the monitors because the waveform takes up a little corner of the screen, but on the LCD it takes up most nearly all the screen.

You can, of course, have waveform and picture simultaneously if you have any sort of external monitor, because the waveform doesn't get overlayed on the output video signal.


Focus assist: Do you know if the 170 will have something like the focus in red feature?
It'll have peaking, but so far I don't think they're going to give it colored peaking. I howled and protested, but I don't know if I got heard. Colored peaking is sweet; Sony and JVC do it, and Red now does it, so I'm certainly hoping they'll implement it on the 170.


The focus assist graph and bar are okay, but they don't really tell you which part of the picture is in focus.
Near as I can tell it's the dead-center area of the screen that's being sampled for the graphs.


(The other option would be for Panny to upgrade the LCD, but we know that didn't happen).
Yet. I haven't given up on that one. It's probably a done deal that it'll be the same LCD panel, but there were some bleeding eardrums around the Panasonic booth when I got done explaining to them just how much we want an upgraded LCD! :evil:

Barry_Green
04-18-2008, 11:41 PM
I asked this before, but forgot where: How does the Waveform work here? It's built into the LCD or is it something being fed to the LCD?
It appears to be graphically overlaid on top of the display. So it's a big graphic.


And, is there a chance that it'll run through the video outputs?
Not likely; I tried it and it didn't show up. I asked if we could get that as an option (as well as the focus assists). There's a big language barrier between me and the person I was asking, of course, as he was direct from the factory in Japan and doing his best to speak English (and I very much appreciate him making the effort to communicate in my language, as I couldn't possibly even attempt to communicate in his) but I don't know if I was all that successful in explaining what I was asking for on some of these things.

Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese... :)

Leo Versola
04-19-2008, 12:32 AM
Great info, thanks Barry... I should've also stated that I'd be using a 35mm adapter which most of us find makes it very difficult to pull focus accurately without focusing aids, especially when squinting at a tiny screen and any kind of tracking is involved. I've tried 'lesser' external monitors with mediocre results, maybe a tad better than I got with my cam's stock LCD. As usual, you pay for what you get.

I agree with your assessment on the added value of the Panny monitor; do I WANT one? Absolutely. But do I NEED one when focus-in-red and size are the only factors to consider? You're right again; one has to answer that for themselves and easier, faster, bigger, better have always sounded good in my book and thus I'll proceed accordingly...[wince] Besides, it will become a necessity when I eventually get around to adding a jib to my rigging.

Barry_Green
04-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Yep, a jib changes everything from "want" to "need".

Leo Versola
04-19-2008, 12:42 AM
Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese... :)

OFF-TOPIC:
Nihongo ga, wakarimas ka? :)

FWIW, I use both Rosetta Stone and Pimsleur for a few different languages, including Japanese, and find that Pimsleur works better (for me at least)... I commute an hour each way to work and sneak in an hour or two of audio training in each day this way. You'd be surprised how fast you can pick things up...

Kholi
04-19-2008, 12:42 AM
It appears to be graphically overlaid on top of the display. So it's a big graphic.


Not likely; I tried it and it didn't show up. I asked if we could get that as an option (as well as the focus assists). There's a big language barrier between me and the person I was asking, of course, as he was direct from the factory in Japan and doing his best to speak English (and I very much appreciate him making the effort to communicate in my language, as I couldn't possibly even attempt to communicate in his) but I don't know if I was all that successful in explaining what I was asking for on some of these things.

Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese... :)

That would actually be a very sick feature to have. Feeding Waveform out to a larger monitor, me would love.

That Rosetta Stone dude is making a FORTUNE I tell you.

Cees Mutsaers
04-19-2008, 03:38 AM
where did the speaker of the HVX200 go in the 170 ?

Mark Williams
04-19-2008, 09:20 AM
Barry,

Thanks for volunteering the waveform use article. I realize it might be a while . For those of us that are unfamilar with its use it would great to have a step by step on the HPX170.

Barry_Green
04-19-2008, 12:02 PM
where did the speaker of the HVX200 go in the 170 ?
Um... don't remember. I think it goes on the top of the barrel right in front of the "snorkel" (in other words, where the menu buttons were on the 200).

LightMast
04-19-2008, 12:04 PM
This may have been covered, but I didn't see it:

Can you have waveform or vector scope on the monitor, with standard view on the viewfinder at the same time, or vice versa?

Barry_Green
04-19-2008, 12:31 PM
I asked for that, but it looks like the answer is no. The same display gets routed to both LCD and viewfinder. The only differences are the LCD flip or B&W, because those are functions of the LCD panel and not functions of the graphics processor. The same graphics image gets sent to both.

However, you could have WF or VS on the camera displays, and standard view on an external monitor.

Sumfun
04-19-2008, 05:35 PM
Yet. I haven't given up on that one. It's probably a done deal that it'll be the same LCD panel, but there were some bleeding eardrums around the Panasonic booth when I got done explaining to them just how much we want an upgraded LCD! :evil:

More power to you! That would be a real selling point if they would upgrade the LCD.

brock2621
04-19-2008, 11:49 PM
Ok, so question... is this camera 1080P? I don't see that on any lists but that's what was said. Also, this is a stupid question but can you record 60fps out on SDI out? And if you can, does anybody have a recommendation on what to record onto in the field for SDI out?

danimal84
04-20-2008, 03:13 AM
so what you saying is the flip is only on the LCD and you cant get it through the viewfinder? that sucks, im mean its small but still

Jan_Crittenden
04-20-2008, 06:36 AM
Hi Guys and Gals,

Keep in mind there were a number of things that we did not get good explanations of due to language differences and misunderstandings and not enough private time to work the answers out through creative translation. There are a number of things I am expecting on this camera but I did not see as we really didn't get the time to explore the camera deeply.

As an example of the odd communication, one of the guys asked if all three of the focus assist functions had to be on and the answer was yes. But the real answer is no. The gentleman that said yes was responding to my request that all three should be up for the show since they wouldn't let us go into the menus. ;-)

The menu button was totally locked out by virtue of a secret code. Taking that idea and making it a part of the wishlist was where I went with it. I do get the request from the broadcast side that they would like the menus to be a little less available to the shooters.

As far as the LCD, I know you all have requested a better LCD, and we have not gotten it, what I did find is that the thumbnail display is a Standard Def Display, and it would take huge amounts of re-engineering to make them HD, or huge amounts of power to make the conversion to HD. I know that I can focus the HPX500 with the histogram in seconds flat, and I find that to be the victory here, we got the histogram in the focus assist. This does reference the point at the cross hair, but since this camera at NAB was not a fully functioning model that wasn't there. So while we didn't get the better LCD, we got a better focus assist.

I need to point out that the HDSDI is an 8 bit signal, not 10 as some might assume. Keep in mind that either works and for evidence, I point to the fact that the HPX500 is 8 bit on its HDSDI. Would I have preferred 10 bit, yes, did I win that battle, no. Next battle. That is what product development is like, each new feature is a battle, like that locking 6 pin firewire.

Probably the easiest feature that we got the design team to implement was the security cable hole for locking down the camera.

This is a pretty cool little camera, and when we get the next one in come July, I will make sure that Barry gets a chance to take a look. I will probably take pictures even. I didn't this time just because there were things that weren't fully in final design stage, like the hinge on the VF or the audio volume control area. So we were looking at a very first working sample that went back to the factory on Friday.

So when it comes in July we will know more, but in the meantime I really appreciate your interest and commentary.

Hope this helps,

Jan

Erik Olson
04-20-2008, 06:54 AM
Yep, a jib changes everything from "want" to "need".

We have a BTLH80 and BTLH1700w coming this week. They'll be a real help when operating the 15' jib. Prior to that, we would often run a second 1354Q SD monitor for that producer / director / rest of crew who always seem to be standing two steps behind you.

The 1700w has both component and HD SDI input without the $600 card required by the BTLH80.

I'll tell you, the more I hear about the 170, the more I believe it will take the front spot as our primary handheld camera. A single BNC running down the jib (instead of three) will play a huge role in reducing weight and wind-up/bind-up.

That is a stack of features that make it an easy choice over the 200a. I'll talk my remaining clients into HD acquisition over tape.

e

joe 1008
04-20-2008, 07:23 AM
As far as the LCD, I know you all have requested a better LCD, and we have not gotten it, what I did find is that the thumbnail display is a Standard Def Display, and it would take huge amounts of re-engineering to make them HD, or huge amounts of power to make the conversion to HD. I know that I can focus the HPX500 with the histogram in seconds flat, and I find that to be the victory here, we got the histogram in the focus assist. This does reference the point at the cross hair, but since this camera at NAB was not a fully functioning model that wasn't there. So while we didn't get the better LCD, we got a better focus assist.

I think, as far as I know, not even the so much acclaimed EX1 display is HD. Just convince them to put the best possible SD LCD on that tiny sexy beast that the 170 seems to be!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

robfilms
04-20-2008, 08:21 AM
jan-

it has been said before but i want u to know,

u are a real asset to this community.

and we are all better off for your continued participation.

having owned the dvx100, the hvx200 and even the sony ex1, i'm really looking forward to the 170.

thanks for all of your effort

be well

rob katz
sweet harvest films

arno
04-20-2008, 11:47 AM
A good (HD) LCD please...

arno

Luis Caffesse
04-20-2008, 12:50 PM
I need to point out that the HDSDI is an 8 bit signal, not 10 as some might assume.

Thanks for clearing that up, Jan.
I figured 10 bit was a bit much to expect.

Can't wait to get my hands on this camera.

-Luis

Jason Ramsey
04-20-2008, 03:27 PM
Hey, folks. Be sure and vote in this poll if the HPX170 is something that interests you. Panny is debating whether or not to include this feature, so your feedback may help to determine that outcome. thanks a lot.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=132528

later,
Jason

Swardo
04-20-2008, 03:38 PM
where does Panasonic say this?

Jan_Crittenden
04-20-2008, 03:41 PM
Say what? Not sure which of the three or four posts you are referencing.

Thanks,

Jan

Swardo
04-20-2008, 03:48 PM
that you or anyone else said anything about it being NTSC/ PAL switchable. I just didn't see or hear anything about that except for the poll.

Barry_Green
04-20-2008, 05:04 PM
Ok, so question... is this camera 1080P?
Yes. So is the HVX200A and the HVX200.


can you record 60fps out on SDI out?
Yes.


And if you can, does anybody have a recommendation on what to record onto in the field for SDI out?
Ah, the main question! Recording HD-SDI is no trivial task. Most people attempting it are using a Kona or BlackMagic card in a desktop computer. There's also a portable Wafian recorder and the new Convergent Designs Flash XDR recorder.

Barry_Green
04-20-2008, 05:04 PM
so what you saying is the flip is only on the LCD and you cant get it through the viewfinder?
It's a hardware function of the LCD panel. The LCD flips, the viewfinder doesn't. At least, that's how it works on the HPX500... not 110% sure about the 170, but I would expect it to be the same.

Think about it this way too: all the text and everything would be flipped, which would be annoying. With it flipping separately, the LCD gets a full-frame flipped display, and the viewfinder shows the regular display including all menus. At least, I think that's the way it works.

Barry_Green
04-20-2008, 05:06 PM
that you or anyone else said anything about it being NTSC/ PAL switchable. I just didn't see or hear anything about that except for the poll.
There was a big debate on that at the show. Panasonic's brochure said it was switchable, but the factory reps said "no." It appears that it's possible, so as a base of users we need to tell them how important (or not) this feature is, to see if they can (or will) implement it.

Swardo
04-20-2008, 05:19 PM
ahhh, didn't know that. I'm assuming then from the mixed signals that it's already been implemented at some stage of development. I agree with the poll that it's a shame not to include the feature in this day and age.

[CTRL+ALT+DEL]
04-20-2008, 05:38 PM
did i miss something? is this true 1080p and not an up-res?

Barry_Green
04-20-2008, 06:08 PM
;1256497']did i miss something? is this true 1080p and not an up-res?
None of the HVX/HPX cameras do an "up-res". They do all use a spatial offset technique to optically sample the chips into a 1080P matrix. The result is way higher resolution than the chip pixel count would suggest, but not as sharp as, say, an EX1.

brock2621
04-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Thanks Barry.

Gosh an expressSlot card with that would be fantastic! So what is the cheapest field option for recording through SDI? I couldn't find a couple of those companies.

Barry_Green
04-20-2008, 10:50 PM
Gosh an expressSlot card with that would be fantastic! So what is the cheapest field option for recording through SDI? I couldn't find a couple of those companies.
Depends on what you want to record through SDI. Uncompressed HD? Ain't gonna happen on a laptop, you're talking about needing to store something like 366 megabytes per second (I'm lazy on the math tonight).

Compressed HD? You can use the CineForm Wafian, but last I knew it was about $17,000. Records in CineForm codec to internal hard disk.

MPEG-2 compressed HD? You can use the Convergent XDR when it's available (I don't think it's out yet, is it?) and that's supposed to be about $5,000 and records to CompactFlash cards.

danimal84
04-21-2008, 04:03 PM
It's a hardware function of the LCD panel. The LCD flips, the viewfinder doesn't. At least, that's how it works on the HPX500... not 110% sure about the 170, but I would expect it to be the same.

Think about it this way too: all the text and everything would be flipped, which would be annoying. With it flipping separately, the LCD gets a full-frame flipped display, and the viewfinder shows the regular display including all menus. At least, I think that's the way it works.

thanks for the response barry. just what i was wondering. now i need to start contemplating changes and what route to go when this new came so if you can provide me any insight on a personal opinion, id appreciate it so here it goes:

right now i shoot with HVX200 with the brevis adapter. one thing i hated was even though i had an external monitor to flip the image, the focus assist functions were still on an upside down viewfinder which at times is fustrating to use.

so first, will the new focus assist functions work with a brevis if you know?

second i was considering getting the cinevate flip so i didnt have to deal with upside down images but now that the LCD can mirror i might pass on it. but with the cinevate flip module which loses 1/2 stop and the new sensors which are 1/2 stop better it seems like it could be a good fit, or without the flip id still get 1/2 stop better through the brevis than i do now with HVX which is also an attractive idea that I like. is there either that you would think that would be a better route?

i like the idea of the flip module so when i go into post i dont have to flip immediatley before i start editing but with raylight mxfx that seems to solve that problem too. so any opinion either way?

danimal84
04-21-2008, 04:11 PM
also, just wondering, would the HPX170 include a 16gb P2 card in box? please i hope!! :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

Barry_Green
04-21-2008, 04:38 PM
By all means, get the flip module -- especially with the Brevis. Cinevate says that the flip actually *improves* the overall look of the image.

I cannot stand the upside-down workflow, and I don't know how others put up with it. Kudos to Panasonic and Sony for including the flip feature in their latest releases for those die-hards who simply won't use a hardware flipping adapter, but -- blah. Use a right-side-up adapter, or get the flip module for your upside-down adapter. It's just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better!

And, I believe the plan is to include a P2 card in the box in the USA (don't know about other territories.) But, there's five months or maybe six months before it comes out, so we'll know more when it actually arrives.

danimal84
04-21-2008, 05:53 PM
thanks again Barry, your input is greatly appreciated and valued!

GuyS
04-21-2008, 10:04 PM
What does the LCD look like? Has the resolution been improved over the HVX 200. How about out in the sunlight? Does it compare with the Sony EX?

Tzedekh
04-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, Jan.
I figured 10 bit was a bit much to expect.I have to ask, if it's 8-bit 4:2:2 coming out of HD-SDI, what's the advantage over recording to P2 -- an uncompressed signal?

Barry_Green
04-21-2008, 10:20 PM
What does the LCD look like?
Same as HVX200.


Has the resolution been improved over the HVX 200.
Presumably not.


How about out in the sunlight?
Use a hood. Hoodman (http://www.enggadgets.com/s.nl;jsessionid=ac112b6c1f4372ac739a0cd04cc89f0f89 abbf3d2b88.e3eTaxiMa38Te34Pa38Ta38Sch90?it=A&id=264)runs something like $20 and solves all exterior/daylight issues.


Does it compare with the Sony EX?
As an LCD panel? No, it's not as sharp or crisp as the EX1's.

Barry_Green
04-21-2008, 10:22 PM
I have to ask, if it's 8-bit 4:2:2 coming out of HD-SDI, what's the advantage over recording to P2 -- an uncompressed signal?
Uncompressed and full raster. DVCPRO-HD is compressed 1440x1080 (or 1280x1080); HD-SDI is uncompressed 1920x1080 @ 4:2:2.

Cees Mutsaers
04-22-2008, 03:27 AM
what is the disadvantage of not being a 10 bit HD-SDI? Does it show in the image quality? Why not 10 bits ? isn't it just another algorithm so software?



edit : I am wrong it is hardware, another AD converter, probably a 10 bits is much more expensive

Derrick_SA
04-22-2008, 10:03 AM
I would love to get an answer about if the camera is going to be PAL/NTSC switchable.

Cause that should mean that the PAL countries can at last shoot 24p.

- Derrick

Barry_Green
04-22-2008, 10:16 AM
I would love to get an answer about if the camera is going to be PAL/NTSC switchable.

Cause that should mean that the PAL countries can at last shoot 24p.

- Derrick
We'd all love that answer. Vote in the poll, let's see if we can influence them.

Barry_Green
04-22-2008, 10:18 AM
what is the disadvantage of not being a 10 bit HD-SDI? Does it show in the image quality? Why not 10 bits ? isn't it just another algorithm so software?



edit : I am wrong it is hardware, another AD converter, probably a 10 bits is much more expensive
It is hardware, yes. 10 bit gives you finer shades of color and grays, less gradients. 10 bits is better. But the only sub-$10,000 camera that offers 10 bits is the EX1. The HPX500, XLH1, XLH1S, XLG1, and now HPX170 all are 8-bit. The HPX170 is far and away the least expensive of that group, so I can almost understand, but I think everyone would always prefer 10-bit if possible.

Cees Mutsaers
04-22-2008, 11:45 AM
But is it really visible the difference between 10 and 8 bit or just on paper/spec. ?



It is hardware, yes. 10 bit gives you finer shades of color and grays, less gradients. 10 bits is better. But the only sub-$10,000 camera that offers 10 bits is the EX1. The HPX500, XLH1, XLH1S, XLG1, and now HPX170 all are 8-bit. The HPX170 is far and away the least expensive of that group, so I can almost understand, but I think everyone would always prefer 10-bit if possible.

Barry_Green
04-22-2008, 12:40 PM
But is it really visible the difference between 10 and 8 bit or just on paper/spec. ?
Under extreme color correction it would be visible. But frankly, as a practical matter, nobody's recording HD-SDI anyway, it's a tiny little niche. HD-SDI is great for monitoring, professional monitors have HD-SDI inputs, etc.

Is it a big deal? For most people? Not really. Is it better to have 10 bits? Of course. If you're the guy who's trying to extract the very highest quality out of an HD-SDI recording for ultimate compositing work or whatever, then yes it might make a difference to you -- but then again, what would you be doing shooting on a $5,000 1/3" camcorder in the first place? Those type of projects should be shot on the Red One.

So, as a practical matter, it's no big deal. Would have been nice, but ... meh.

filmguy123
04-22-2008, 05:23 PM
great update to the HVX model - these features are key, particularily the CCD upgrades, ND filters, and focus assists - plus a bunch of very convenient/thoughtful improvements. Sure there's a few more things I'd like to have seen - for example, the ability to shoot AVC-HD to cheaper memory cards like the HMC also included... but... plenty enough to make me ditch the HVX and upgrade. Good stuff.

BWyldeck
04-23-2008, 05:13 AM
So when and where can I buy one of these bad boys?

Jan_Crittenden
04-23-2008, 05:53 AM
The HPX170 will be available in September and the HVX200a will be available now.

Hope that helps,

Jan

Brad Neal
04-23-2008, 06:38 AM
I really want this frickin camera. So somebody send me work - and lots of it!

Daygola814
04-23-2008, 07:28 AM
I really want this frickin camera. So somebody send me work - and lots of it!

Hahaha I hear you there. Me too!

Leo Versola
04-23-2008, 10:42 PM
I really want this frickin camera.


Ditto!

mik303
04-24-2008, 07:59 AM
Wider lens, lighter camera, better performance in low-light than my HVX200? Sold.

naveenmedia
04-24-2008, 02:43 PM
Is the 170 meant as a replacement to the HVX200? And if so, then does that mean the 200a is just a placeholder until the 170 is released?

Barry_Green
04-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Is the 170 meant as a replacement to the HVX200? And if so, then does that mean the 200a is just a placeholder until the 170 is released?
The 200A is there because there is still a market that needs tape. I expect that most of us would look to the 170 instead of the 200A, but for those who have to have tape, the 200A is offered.

Jason Ramsey
04-24-2008, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I think even Jan said that probably 90% will go to the 170, but the 200a is there so as not to leave people behind if they need that option.

Later,
Jason

John Godden
04-24-2008, 06:52 PM
Barry

Thanks for the GREAT overview of this new cam. Looks like a killer handheld cam!

The only question now is how much? I sure hope Pani US delivers the cam and 16 GB card for sub $5K. :Drogar-Shock(DBG):

:dankk2: JohnG

agentjonny
04-25-2008, 09:24 AM
i have what is probably a stupid question, but here goes. does the smaller lens affect depth of field? just wondering if Z99 on the larger HVX lens will have a shallower depth than the Z99 on the 170...i've ran dvx and hvx plenty but never compared the two on that level...that being said, the added features on the 170 make it a must have...so i assume that the focus assist still times out on the hvx200a?

Barry_Green
04-25-2008, 11:38 AM
Didn't test the focus-assist time-out, but I didn't notice it staying "on" so I'm pretty sure it does time out.

The HVX200A should be capable of very slightly shallower DOF than the HPX170. They use the same chipset but the 200A's lens is a little bit longer (55mm vs. 51mm). Frankly I doubt anyone will notice the difference in DOF.

LightMast
04-25-2008, 01:58 PM
Barry, being that this is a 72mm front element- do you think an accessory like the Chosziel Sunshade for the DVX will work on this camera? The wider lens plus the native 16x9 format make me wonder. I don't fully understand the nature of how these things affect vignetting, besides the obvious (a wider field of view may grab more for the hood).

Barry_Green
04-25-2008, 03:43 PM
We'll have to try it to see.

LightMast
04-26-2008, 07:35 AM
Great- thanks for all the coverage on these new cams- it's very much appreciated.

Daniel.Valle
05-02-2008, 04:39 PM
Is the camera really coming out in September as the rumors implied?

I'm holding out on a few projects just waiting for it to come out, all the "issues" I had with the HVX have been pretty much solved or improved with the 170 (tape drive, noise, low sensitivity, bulk, non-flippable LCD)

It needs to come out like, yesterday, for me. =p

Barry_Green
05-02-2008, 10:14 PM
According to the Panasonic people at NAB, they said "September." Check back in August and we should hear some more updates, probably a working model at the WEVA show.

yzmotoxer807
05-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Personally, I think it is ugly but the specs look like way more than enough to make up for the ugliness. :)

Zander
05-08-2008, 07:52 PM
Personally, I think it is ugly but the specs look like way more than enough to make up for the ugliness. :)
Yeah, it isn't the most attractive piece that Panasonic has come up with but stick it on some rails with an adapter and a mattebox and it should look gorgeous.

Conrad Radzik
05-09-2008, 03:11 AM
I haven't seen a real clear answer on this..

Will the image flip on the camera for 35 mm adapters be ONLY on the LCD or will it also be on external monitors? I know that it really doesn't matter that much, but having a monitor right-side up is 'cleaner', so to speak. I think anyone would prefer having a monitor mounted like it should be rather than not.

Thanks in advance.

Conrad

Barry_Green
05-09-2008, 05:33 AM
LCD only, as far as I know. That's how the HPX500's flip works and I'm pretty sure this will be the same.

daveswan
05-09-2008, 07:05 AM
If the HPX 170 is coming in at $5k ( anyguess), and Scarlett is expected $3k bare and $5k complete, then what has the HPX got that would make me sell my HVX?
Not meant to sound sarky, I really would like a comparison, since we're looking at two fixed-lens solid-state cams that are likely to compete on at least some common ground.
Dave

Zander
05-09-2008, 07:10 AM
If the HPX 170 is coming in at $5k ( anyguess), and Scarlett is expected $3k bare and $5k complete, then what has the HPX got that would make me sell my HVX?
Not meant to sound sarky, I really would like a comparison, since we're looking at two fixed-lens solid-state cams that are likely to compete on at least some common ground.
Dave
For one the 170 will be out many months, if not 1-2 years before the Scarlet.

Jason Adams
05-09-2008, 08:07 AM
If the HPX 170 is coming in at $5k ( anyguess), and Scarlett is expected $3k bare and $5k complete, then what has the HPX got that would make me sell my HVX?
Not meant to sound sarky, I really would like a comparison, since we're looking at two fixed-lens solid-state cams that are likely to compete on at least some common ground.
Dave1.) HPX 170 exists. Scarlet is still on the list with my anti gravity skateboard and car that runs on creativity. I really want them but until they are here they don't do me much good.

2.) Workflow. P2's adoption by NLEs has really come a long way. It goes instantly into many NLEs, some with out transcoding or QT wrapping. Red still is the shoots pretty pictures no fun to edit camera. ( I am sure a lot will change by the time scarlet is released but now it is what it is)

3.) Versatility - HPX can be a cinema or production camera. With all the formats you could take jobs that want DVC Pro 50 or even DVC Pro and also throw a 35mm adapter on your camera and shoot HD and get beautiful cinema like shots.

davide
05-09-2008, 09:59 AM
Barry, are you sure that the 170 as the 200A is a half stop faster than the 200 since the glass of the 170 is smaller (72 mm vs 82 mm of the 200A) ???

They're faster because the cameras are more sensitive to light not because the lenses open up to a wider aperture. The HVX200 had an ISO rating of about 320, Barry has reported the hvx200a and hpx170 to have iso ratings of about 500 which is around a half stop faster.

davide

Cees Mutsaers
05-09-2008, 10:31 AM
Even barry did not see any footage of the 170 so it is just speculation and trust to what the panasonic people say. We have to see them side by side to be sure.


They're faster because the cameras are more sensitive to light not because the lenses open up to a wider aperture. The HVX200 had an ISO rating of about 320, Barry has reported the hvx200a and hpx170 to have iso ratings of about 500 which is around a half stop faster.

davide

Barry_Green
05-09-2008, 11:23 AM
There was no footage. We were told that the chipsets were identical and that we could expect comparable performance.

SUPPATIME
05-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Goodbye, 50 ISO with the P+S Technik and Super Speeds... hello 100 ISO.

I'm quite excited by the announcement of both the HVX-200A and the HPX-170... moreso about the 170, though...

Kholi
05-09-2008, 06:35 PM
P+S is so old hat. 200A is a really nice, I love it so much more than the 200 and it's a blast having so much light in conjunction with the Letus Ultimate. 200A is wicked and the 170 is gonna be great with all the nice extras.

I'm definitely trading the 200A for the 170 when it drops!

Duol
05-11-2008, 04:25 AM
Hi,

Any news about the lcd screen ? I really don't undestand why Panasonic didn't change the lcd on the hvx200A.

I'm interesting with the hpx170 but if the lcd screen is the same than the hpx200, i will probably change my hvx200 for a sony ex1, it's so nice to focus with a great lcd or to use the SxS card directly on the macbookpro.

Jan_Crittenden
05-11-2008, 05:01 AM
Hi,

Any news about the lcd screen ? I really don't undestand why Panasonic didn't change the lcd on the hvx200A.

I'm interesting with the hpx170 but if the lcd screen is the same than the hpx200, i will probably change my hvx200 for a sony ex1, it's so nice to focus with a great lcd or to use the SxS card directly on the macbookpro.

The LCD screen is the same as before and the reason that we didn't change it is there isnt a reasonable replacement that is also sufficient for the Thumbnail screen. And on the HPX170 there are 3 focus assist tools.

And as far as using the EX1, you will spend a lot more money to have a camera that when given certain light sources that have a certain amount of infra red will cause your black to be brown, that will have the rolling shutter artifacts and offer you a long GOP recording at 4:2:0 but you are right the screen is easy to focus. Oddly enough I hit the LCD screen on my leg within a couple of hours of owning it and it occasionally flips out on me. Since I don't use the camera to make money I haven't thought of sending it in for warranty repair. And the paint is starting to rub off on my EX1 just like it seems to be rubbing off on some of the other guys cameras.

Wait till you see the HPX170, and try it out. I think you will find that it is a very nicely balanced package that will be a full 2 lbs lighter than the EX1 and have a real Solid State workflow, from camera operation all the way through the metadata.

Best,

Jan

Sumfun
05-11-2008, 10:25 AM
Oddly enough I hit the LCD screen on my leg within a couple of hours of owning it and it occasionally flips out on me.

Are you sure you didn't give it a drop kick or something like that? :)

I don't know if you have kids, but either way, Happy Mother's Day, Jan! And thanks for keeping us informed.

Duol
05-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Hello Jan,

Yes, 3 focus assist tools is very cool but for me not replace a good lcd or a good viewfinder, i use the focus assist of the hpx500 and i don't like it.

And Autofocus on the hvx200 is also very slow !

The sony ex1, the sony Z7, the canon XH-A1 have a good lcd why not the hpx170 ?

The P in hpx170 is for professional, no ?

I think many users are ready to pay a lot more for a camera that you can focus easily, focus directly with their eyes and not with gadgets, for me it's a waste of time.

I know the limitation of hdv and I like dvcpro HD but for me a good lcd or viewfinder is very more important than the weight, the frame rate button, the lcd flip...

But yes, probably, it would cost more to change the lcd for Panasonic, it's probably a question of marketting !

I just know that i will not pay for a hpx170 if the quality of the lcd or the viewfinder isn't enought good and i'm not alone in this case.

Spartacus
05-11-2008, 03:29 PM
The LCD screen is the same as before and the reason that we didn't change it is there isnt a reasonable replacement that is also sufficient for the Thumbnail screen.
Sorry, but thats hard to understand, maybe you can tell us more about the actual technical difficulties involved?
Id gladly pay 750 more for the cam if that would save me the hassle of hanging a 7" LCD connected via that piece of shi* analog component cable for monitoring HD.

Jan_Crittenden
05-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Are you sure you didn't give it a drop kick or something like that? :)



No drop kick, but it did hit my leg pretty hard.

Best,

Jan

Jan_Crittenden
05-11-2008, 03:56 PM
Yes, 3 focus assist tools is very cool but for me not replace a good lcd or a good viewfinder, i use the focus assist of the hpx500 and i don't like it

There are two others on the HPX170 that can be used in combination



And Autofocus on the hvx200 is also very slow !

In 24P it is slow. as it samples at the rate of the frame rate. It is just like the DVX100B in this regard.


The sony ex1, the sony Z7, the canon XH-A1 have a good lcd why not the hpx170 ?

Because they have no need for a 4X3 display and P2 does.



The P in hpx170 is for professional, no ?


No, nice gues, it stand for the fact that it is a P2 only camera.



I think many users are ready to pay a lot more for a camera that you can focus easily, focus directly with their eyes and not with gadgets, for me it's a waste of time.


Actually I fully believe you can focus the HVX200 with its focusing tools and it is not a guess there either.


I know the limitation of hdv and I like dvcpro HD but for me a good lcd or viewfinder is very more important than the weight, the frame rate button, the lcd flip...


Then it looks like you will be dealing with the CMOS situation.


But yes, probably, it would cost more to change the lcd for Panasonic, it's probably a question of marketting !


Actually the change would require the entire P2 portion of the cameras to be re-engineered. It is not marketing it is engineering.


I just know that i will not pay for a hpx170 if the quality of the lcd or the viewfinder isn't enought good and i'm not alone in this case.

And so again, it isn't going to change and so you will need to ready yourself for a completely different experience that shooting with DVCPRO HD and a CCD.

Best regards,

Jan

davide
05-11-2008, 05:28 PM
Hi Jan,

Why does P2 require a 4x3 display?

Jan_Crittenden
05-11-2008, 08:12 PM
For the Thumbnail Display.

Best,

Jan

Rocketeer
05-12-2008, 02:09 PM
Jan,

I understand the HPX170 is going to be released as a 50Hz or 60Hz camera and not provide the ability to do both on the one camera model.

Can you please pass on to Japan what an incredibly stupid decision this is.

If the HPX170 is part of the HPX family it should include the ability to switch, like the other cameras within the product group -HPX500, 2000 and 3000.

Very disappointing.

Barry_Green
05-12-2008, 02:28 PM
Very disappointing indeed. Vote in the poll to show Japan how you feel about this issue, and nag Panasonic NZ to voice the same complaints on your behalf.

Joe Lawry
05-12-2008, 06:13 PM
Very disappointing indeed. Vote in the poll to show Japan how you feel about this issue, and nag Panasonic NZ to voice the same complaints on your behalf.

Has this been confirmed? last i heard they were still on the fence about it..

aghhh. :Drogar-Mark-01(DBG)

Rocketeer
05-12-2008, 10:21 PM
Has this been confirmed? last i heard they were still on the fence about it..

aghhh. :Drogar-Mark-01(DBG)

Do the DVX poll and email Panasonic NZ with your view.

curranrowe
05-13-2008, 12:54 AM
Hi Jan,

I was wondering if you knew: will the CCD sensor block of the HPX170 be perfectly centered relative to the lens?

On the HVX200, the sensor block was slightly off-center, which created an issue when mounting a 35mm adapter to the camera... when zooming in to the adapter ground glass image, the image ended up off center.

This is because the sensor block of the HVX is slightly off center in relation to the lens and filter threads.

Do you know if this issue be addressed in the new HPX170?

Thanks, Jan.

Joe Lawry
05-13-2008, 01:08 AM
Do the DVX poll and email Panasonic NZ with your view.

Already voted, and have spoken to pete about it when he first got back from NAB, might give him a follow up email.

Oh Scott, sold that 17" yet? i managed to finally get hold of pete after i was in speaking to you about card rental and the fact your selling your 1700 last Tuesday. Bought the 2 16 gig cards and am all good now.

FatDaddy
05-13-2008, 04:28 PM
It looks like Pany is advertising a switchable NTSC/PAL HPX-170 in their insert add in this months Studio Monthly.

Think this will make it through to delivery?

(isn't that called false advertising if it does not wind up in production?)

Rocketeer
05-13-2008, 05:21 PM
It looks like Pany is advertising a switchable NTSC/PAL HPX-170 in their insert add in this months Studio Monthly.

Think this will make it through to delivery?

(isn't that called false advertising if it does not wind up in production?)

It sounds more promising than a 'HPX-172'

dwnsthballer
05-13-2008, 06:00 PM
I've only owned the DVX100B so I don't know if this was addressed or not in later cameras like the HVX (I think the original DVX had this too), but is there anyway we can get some 16x9 and 4x3 action safe margins for broadcast put onto the LCD or something? I know you can buy some to stick on, but it seems like something that should be on any professional camera. Even if it's just little corner marks or something.

Would help out a lot in shoots going straight to television (again, don't know if it was put on the later cameras or not)!

:D

Joe Lawry
05-13-2008, 07:00 PM
It looks like Pany is advertising a switchable NTSC/PAL HPX-170 in their insert add in this months Studio Monthly.

Think this will make it through to delivery?

(isn't that called false advertising if it does not wind up in production?)

Yea i read this on another forum, weird that they are advertising it without officially announcing it.

I emailed Panasonic NZ, who said they would forward my email on to panasonic japan.

So come on everybody, email panasonic broadcast in your country and tell them what we want!

SPrimeau
05-13-2008, 09:52 PM
I've only owned the DVX100B so I don't know if this was addressed or not in later cameras like the HVX (I think the original DVX had this too), but is there anyway we can get some 16x9 and 4x3 action safe margins for broadcast put onto the LCD or something? I know you can buy some to stick on, but it seems like something that should be on any professional camera. Even if it's just little corner marks or something.Yes, there is safe margins available on the HVX.

And yes, the original DVX was already at the right size on the LCD. It is what I use and I was surprised to learn that the 100b underscan display didn't have a safe zone.

FatDaddy
05-14-2008, 09:30 PM
Here is a link to Jan talking about the 170 at Studio Daily (NAB footage).

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/9447.html

Some little things I did not know (focus iris switch for the ring).

Duol
05-18-2008, 05:30 AM
And so again, it isn't going to change and so you will need to ready yourself for a completely different experience that shooting with DVCPRO HD and a CCD.

Best regards,

Jan

Thanks for your answer Jan.

It is very disappointing that Panasonic doesn't really listen to his customers.

Ok, the EX1 use a CMOS and HDV but offers so new great features : 1/2" and full HD chip, Great LCD, cheap card that you could use directly in the slot of the macbook pro, PAL & NTSC, real iris ring...

I like the hvx200 but it is far from being completed : grain, not enought sensitive, bad lcd, audio levels behind the camera, weak resolution of the chip, very expensive P2 card...

It's so sad that Panasonic doesn't want to improve more than that his camera.

I understand that he doesn't want to make it for the hvx200a but for a new camera as hpx170 it is really pity. :cry:

matt s.
05-18-2008, 10:52 AM
Duol Panansonic pretty much listened to the customers and included most features everyone was asking for in the 170 and from what ive seen the 200a is a great improvement over the 200.

Joe Lawry
05-18-2008, 04:14 PM
It is very disappointing that Panasonic doesn't really listen to his customers.

Agh,, posts like these are painful.


Ok, the EX1 use a CMOS and HDV but offers so new great features : 1/2" and full HD chip, Great LCD, cheap card that you could use directly in the slot of the macbook pro, PAL & NTSC, real iris ring...

Where to start, Panasonic has listened, and has implemented to many features in the HPX170 that their customers have asked for, its crazy how much they've actually listened to us.

Regards to the LCD, Jan has already explained that it would require Panasonic to rebuild the Thumbnail menu system that is currently universal on all of Panasonic's P2 line up. It would be a bit of work to make it 16x9 and to them wouldnt make a lot of sense as it would only really be added to their bottom end cameras. Cameras like the 2000 and 3000 along with the 2 new varicams would never need it as they are usually always being used with an external broadcast monitor.

"Cheap Cards" - Well last time i checked.. P2 cards cost the same as SxS cards and you still cant use your regular old express cards in either of the EX range.

Yes they can fit in macbook pros, but p2 cards can still fit in a hell of a lot of the new PC's and almost all old PCs and Macs.

Pal/NTSC - currently hopefully being addressed..

Real Iris ring - yup, the ex1's iris ring is nice.. however have you felt the zoom or focus? They may have fixed stops but they feel nothing like a broadcast lens. The HVX lens feels far better to me coming from a broadcast background - even if it doesnt have fixed stops on the focus.


I like the hvx200 but it is far from being completed : grain, not enought sensitive, bad lcd, audio levels behind the camera, weak resolution of the chip, very expensive P2 card...

Grain and Sensitivity have both been addressed in the HVX200A and the HPX170.

Bad Lcd - lets not go over this again.

Audio Pots behind the camera - Addressed with the HPX170

Weak Chip Res - Has been address in the HVX200a and 170

Expensive P2 cards - .. already been here.



It's so sad that Panasonic doesn't want to improve more than that his camera.

I understand that he doesn't want to make it for the hvx200a but for a new camera as hpx170 it is really pity. :cry:

:violin:

The cameras have been improved - Even the 200a

Go read some of the rest of this thread and this forum in general and you'll see that the improvements are awesome and panasonic have done very well to address the issues their customers found with the HVX.

Bokes
05-20-2008, 08:24 AM
Will the HPX170 be smaller and lighter than a EX1?

Jan_Crittenden
05-20-2008, 08:29 AM
The 170 weighs in at 4.5 lbs. Compare to the EX 1 at over 6.4 lbs. More along the size of the DVX100B.

Best,

Jan

LuckyStudio 13
05-20-2008, 10:00 AM
Jan,

Will we have 50/60 hz switchable ??? I know there is a poll here and it shows that we want to have that feature. I also know that you are personally fighting for it too.

DanBell
05-26-2008, 07:15 PM
Hi Jan,

I was wondering if you knew: will the CCD sensor block of the HPX170 be perfectly centered relative to the lens?

On the HVX200, the sensor block was slightly off-center, which created an issue when mounting a 35mm adapter to the camera... when zooming in to the adapter ground glass image, the image ended up off center.

This is because the sensor block of the HVX is slightly off center in relation to the lens and filter threads.

Do you know if this issue be addressed in the new HPX170?

Thanks, Jan.

I think I did that right with the quote thingy. Curranrowe has a good question that I am curious about also. Any answer?

(Great thread and great work from Barry and Jan.)

Jan_Crittenden
05-27-2008, 05:31 PM
Have no idea. Sorry. Have not seen the camera totally close up. How would you test for this?

Thamks,

Jan

Student
05-27-2008, 05:40 PM
Will my old 8 gig p2s work in the HPX170? Will I have to re-format if I am using both the HVX200 and the HPX170 with the same P2 cards? Will I still be able to use the same workflow as I'm using with the HVX200 , meaning Raylight and Vegas?

Jan_Crittenden
05-27-2008, 06:38 PM
Yes they will work. SOSO.

Best,

Jan

Barry_Green
05-27-2008, 06:44 PM
Everything that works with the 200, will work with the 170. Same cards, same formats, same workflow, same everything.

Concept89
05-28-2008, 01:53 AM
So I'm a little lost on this thing. I mean, I'm saving for an HVX200A, but the 170 seems REALLY interesting with such advantages, but the thing is, I'm not exactly knowledgeable of these advantages.

-What does it mean better "smear resistance"?

-And with the LCD flip, does this mean I can get a 35mm adapter w/o having to spend a load of money for a a flip module?

-is it firm as Jan said that it will be coming out this September?

Concept89
05-28-2008, 01:58 AM
By the way, I am aware that the HVX200A uses the same DSP and chip as the 170. I just don't know what smear resistance is. I'm not stating that is an advantage over the HVX200A.

David Shawl
05-28-2008, 03:10 AM
I have been looking around on the forums and still haven't found out if the 170 will be 1080p capable (not just 1080i). anyone?

Jan_Crittenden
05-28-2008, 03:15 AM
By the way, I am aware that the HVX200A uses the same DSP and chip as the 170. I just don't know what smear resistance is. I'm not stating that is an advantage over the HVX200A.

Smear is when a CCD hits a very bright light source and it causes a vertical line through the picture. There is a new circuit that controls this artifact better than before and it is isn the 200A and the 170.


Hope this helps,

Jan

Jan_Crittenden
05-28-2008, 03:18 AM
I have been looking around on the forums and still haven't found out if the 170 will be 1080p capable (not just 1080i). anyone?

Hi,

It will do 1080, in both 30 frames and 24 frames. In the 24, it has to do a pull-down as it will do progressive frames as a segmented frame recording. No worries there, we have been doing this with the DVX and the HVX for years, they really are progressive frames.

Thansk,

Jan

Jan_Crittenden
05-28-2008, 03:21 AM
-What does it mean better "smear resistance"?

Explained below


-And with the LCD flip, does this mean I can get a 35mm adapter w/o having to spend a load of money for a a flip module?

This is true. Still will have to flip it on the timeline, but for composition, the LCD will be right side up.



-is it firm as Jan said that it will be coming out this September?

Yes. Should have one at HD Expo in Chicago next week and at Cine Gear in LA, come on by and check it out.


Thanks,

Jan

SPZ
05-28-2008, 06:13 AM
Can we expect a "Barry Green hands on" next week? :)

Main concern is, of course, the 72mm lens vs the HVX200a lens, since, internally, both share the same CCD's...

Concept89
05-28-2008, 06:13 AM
Thanks a bunch for your immediate responses, Jan! However, I'm still not understanding the idea of the flip situation. So the camera will show the image right side up, but when you import the footage onto a timeline, it would turn up upside down, therefore requiring you to flip the image? How would you go about doing that on FCP?

Now, if I were to use an adapter with a built in flip module, say, the Letus Extreme, how would that affect the LCD image and recorded image, if not at all?

Again, thanks, you helped clear many things up for me!

mvb
05-28-2008, 09:54 AM
Thanks a bunch for your immediate responses, Jan! However, I'm still not understanding the idea of the flip situation. So the camera will show the image right side up, but when you import the footage onto a timeline, it would turn up upside down, therefore requiring you to flip the image? How would you go about doing that on FCP?

Now, if I were to use an adapter with a built in flip module, say, the Letus Extreme, how would that affect the LCD image and recorded image, if not at all?

Again, thanks, you helped clear many things up for me!

Raylight MXFX can be used to flip images, before editing, without loss of quality and retain metadata: http://dvfilm.com/MXFX

Cees Mutsaers
05-28-2008, 02:26 PM
Hi Jan,

Is there any change that you can do a quick side by side comparison between the 170 and 200A regarding the low light difference if any? Maybe this time you are allowed to dig into the menue to see if there are more new features incorporated like Pal/NTSC switchablility. I won't ask about the LCD again :-)))


[quote=Jan_Crittenden;1289294].

Yes. Should have one at HD Expo in Chicago next week and at Cine Gear in LA, come on by and check it out.

Barry_Green
05-28-2008, 06:51 PM
Can we expect a "Barry Green hands on" next week? :)
No doubt. I'll have all the lowdown.

Barry_Green
05-28-2008, 06:54 PM
So the camera will show the image right side up, but when you import the footage onto a timeline, it would turn up upside down, therefore requiring you to flip the image?
If your adapter renders the image upside down, then the camera will record it upside down. The 170 has the ability to flip its LCD, so you could monitor the image right-side-up even though it's being recorded upside down.


Now, if I were to use an adapter with a built in flip module, say, the Letus Extreme, how would that affect the LCD image and recorded image, if not at all?
I strongly encourage everyone to shoot rightside up. The Letus Extreme shoots rightside-up, so you don't have any hassles. You record the footage the right way, and you monitor the footage the right way. Everything just works the way you'd expect it to. I think at this point that every major adapter manufacturer has a rightside-up adapter.

For those who want to use an upside-down adapter, that's what the LCD Flip feature is for.

Jan_Crittenden
05-28-2008, 07:04 PM
No doubt. I'll have all the lowdown.


Hi, Barry won't have everything but will have a goodly supply. For example the 50/60Hz question. This is still being hammered out. This is all about gray market issues. World money markets are not fair and customers pay for trips abroad with what they save in gray goods. The tough part is that the manufaturer is held responsible to try and support the product in the money market where it resides. This isn't right in that the money to pay for that support went to the country that sold the gray product. And while I think I can point to more gray cameras than any other country combined, it is the smaller countries that need the support of local sales. It is a very volatile issue.

Barry is also working with a prototype, it is not a production line sample. But we got some good stuff today and I am sure without my bugging him tomorrow, he will make greater progress. ;-) I really think this is a very nice little camera and with acouple of tweaks here and there will be great.

Best,

Jan

Kholi
05-28-2008, 07:46 PM
Hi, Barry won't have everything but will have a goodly supply. For example the 50/60Hz question. This is still being hammered out. This is all about gray market issues. World money markets are not fair and customers pay for trips abroad with what they save in gray goods. The tough part is that the manufaturer is held responsible to try and support the product in the money market where it resides. This isn't right in that the money to pay for that support went to the country that sold the gray product. And while I think I can point to more gray cameras than any other country combined, it is the smaller countries that need the support of local sales. It is a very volatile issue.

Barry is also working with a prototype, it is not a production line sample. But we got some good stuff today and I am sure without my bugging him tomorrow, he will make greater progress. ;-) I really think this is a very nice little camera and with acouple of tweaks here and there will be great.

Best,

Jan

Oh so Mr. Green has a 170 in his hands right now? or am I reading this wrong?

Someone asked about the lowlight difference between 200A and HPX170: well they SHOULD be the same unless the actual LENS itself is much better than the HVX200A's? This is probably the only variable as far as image quality that should effect the difference in image between the 200A and 170. Or am I wrong?

LuckyStudio 13
05-28-2008, 07:49 PM
Hi, Barry won't have everything but will have a goodly supply. For example the 50/60Hz question. This is still being hammered out. This is all about gray market issues. World money markets are not fair and customers pay for trips abroad with what they save in gray goods.

Jan, I understand the issue but Sony with the EX1 and all of the Canon HDV cams (h1, a1, g1) are capable of 50/60hz switchable (canon facotry upgrades).

Furthermore, B&H a Panasonic dealer is selling 60hz PAL dvx, hvx and other camcorders right under the nose of Panasonic America for years.

The hpx 170 is a PERFECT companion to the hpx 500 as a smaller B cam, crash cam, underwater cam and it is a mighty shame if those two cant be perfectly coupled up due to 50/60hz switchable option.

Barry_Green
05-28-2008, 07:58 PM
Oh so Mr. Green has a 170 in his hands right now? or am I reading this wrong?
Right NOW? No. But earlier today, yeah... :evil:

I'm doing a preview "Second Look" article for DVXUser, and since the 170 is going "public" next week at the show, I'm getting a chance to check it out early to get the article ready. As Jan said, this is not a finished product, it's a prototype (after all, the final version is not due to ship for maybe 4 months,) but this is a mightily updated version from the one they had at NAB (for example, the menus work... how's that for an update?!) :)

Oh, and ... yes... there are some goodies under the hood, moreso than just the physical differences noted earlier. I probably shouldn't say anything yet, I mean, if I went and said something like "the LCD is astonishingly better for focus now", that'd just spoil the article, and I wouldn't want to go spoiling the article...

Anybody want to buy a two-year-old HVX200? I need to raise some cash by September... :thumbsup:

Barry_Green
05-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Jan, I understand the issue but Sony with the EX1 and all of the Canon HDV cams (h1, a1, g1) are capable of 50/60hz switchable (canon facotry upgrades).

Furthermore, B&H a Panasonic dealer is selling 60hz PAL dvx, hvx and other camcorders right under the nose of Panasonic America for years.

The hpx 170 is a PERFECT companion to the hpx 500 as a smaller B cam, crash cam, underwater cam and it is a mighty shame if those two cant be perfectly coupled up due to 50/60hz switchable option.
Trust me, Jan understands this point very, very well. But she's the US product line manager, not the engineer who builds it at the factory. If the factory chooses to offer it, we'll get it. If the factory chooses not to offer it, we won't. Please go vote in the poll so we can show the factory how much of an impact the addition (or deletion) of this feature means to us.

Barry_Green
05-28-2008, 08:02 PM
Someone asked about the lowlight difference between 200A and HPX170: well they SHOULD be the same unless the actual LENS itself is much better than the HVX200A's? This is probably the only variable as far as image quality that should effect the difference in image between the 200A and 170. Or am I wrong?
Your assumption seems eminently logical and reasonable. Actual testing will verify whether it is accurate. I can try to do something with the prototype, but until the final version is released there's no way to know for certain if the results will even be meaningful.

Kholi
05-28-2008, 08:03 PM
Right NOW? No. But earlier today, yeah... :evil:

I'm doing a preview "Second Look" article for DVXUser, and since the 170 is going "public" next week at the show, I'm getting a chance to check it out early to get the article ready. As Jan said, this is not a finished product, it's a prototype (after all, the final version is not due to ship for maybe 4 months,) but this is a mightily updated version from the one they had at NAB (for example, the menus work... how's that for an update?!) :)

Oh, and ... yes... there are some goodies under the hood, moreso than just the physical differences noted earlier. I probably shouldn't say anything yet, I mean, if I went and said something like "the LCD is astonishingly better for focus now", that'd just spoil the article, and I wouldn't want to go spoiling the article...

Anybody want to buy a two-year-old HVX200? I need to raise some cash by September... :thumbsup:

Awwww. No FAIR. I'd assume your identity to get to play with the HPX170 but I think our physical appearances different just slightly.

I'll wait for the second look article, but I'll be keeping an eye out in regards to the lens itself.

Butcher
05-28-2008, 08:05 PM
I know the camera is still 4 months from the projected release, but is there a projected date to announce the MSRP? We're seriously looking at going P2 (I'd prefer sooner than later), and having a price would help us plan.

Look forward to your 2nd review Barry.

Michael.

FatDaddy
05-28-2008, 08:10 PM
Barry, great news on the upcoming article tweak. September sounds like it won't come fast enough.

Jan, I was hoping for a 170/64 gig P2 card combo release. Any chance that will work out?

Hoping Pany will make that a special deal :thumbsup:

Concept89
05-28-2008, 08:13 PM
If your adapter renders the image upside down, then the camera will record it upside down. The 170 has the ability to flip its LCD, so you could monitor the image right-side-up even though it's being recorded upside down.


I strongly encourage everyone to shoot rightside up. The Letus Extreme shoots rightside-up, so you don't have any hassles. You record the footage the right way, and you monitor the footage the right way. Everything just works the way you'd expect it to. I think at this point that every major adapter manufacturer has a rightside-up adapter.

For those who want to use an upside-down adapter, that's what the LCD Flip feature is for.

Ah! I see! Thanks a lot for clearing that up for me Barry!

SPZ
05-29-2008, 02:30 AM
Looks like the HPX is the DVXUSER wishlist answer from Panasonic.

Better LCD? YES!

Now, Barry, the only concern I have is... the lens. I'm really curious to see the bigger lens vs the smaller lens (HVX200a vs 170) and what that means in overal quality of the images...

Jan_Crittenden
05-29-2008, 03:22 AM
Jan, I understand the issue but Sony with the EX1 and all of the Canon HDV cams (h1, a1, g1) are capable of 50/60hz switchable (canon facotry upgrades).

Furthermore, B&H a Panasonic dealer is selling 60hz PAL dvx, hvx and other camcorders right under the nose of Panasonic America for years.

The hpx 170 is a PERFECT companion to the hpx 500 as a smaller B cam, crash cam, underwater cam and it is a mighty shame if those two cant be perfectly coupled up due to 50/60hz switchable option.

Let me try again. Support for warranty service is expensive. Each country has to support their own warranty service centers, personell, equipment building space, etc. Each is a cost center. If every European customer decided to purchase their camera in the US because the taxes and duties and exchange rate for Euro not only paid for the camera but the holiday to go and get it, well there wouldn't be any money in the coffers in Europe to pay for warranty service area. It is especially prevalent in the smaller cameras. The PAL cameras that B & H sells are more expensive than the NTSC ones. This is not an easy issue to deal with and yes, it is a problem for those other guys as well. It is because we have been watching what is happening to them that we are carefully studying the possible solutions.

I know why we want it, trust me, I really do understand this, it is just how do we do this so that we do not have the world buying their cameras from the US. A little different from gray, but I do know how it feels to tell a customer that his warranty is in Japan and not in the US. It is not a pleasant conversation.

Thanks,

Jan

Jan_Crittenden
05-29-2008, 03:23 AM
I know the camera is still 4 months from the projected release, but is there a projected date to announce the MSRP? We're seriously looking at going P2 (I'd prefer sooner than later), and having a price would help us plan.

Look forward to your 2nd review Barry.



Consider it in around the same price as the HVX.

Thanks,

Jan

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 04:40 AM
Looks like the HPX is the DVXUSER wishlist answer from Panasonic.

Better LCD? YES!

Now, Barry, the only concern I have is... the lens. I'm really curious to see the bigger lens vs the smaller lens (HVX200a vs 170) and what that means in overal quality of the images...
I can try to test some side by sides, but you have to keep in mind that this is a prototype, so any findings that get reported are preliminary and subject to change. No guarantees, one way or another; they might improve or change anything between now and the final release.

The LCD's peaking/EVF DTL is so much better it's startling. It's way, way easier to see focus on the 170. I mean, the 200A has about half as much improvement as the 170 does. The 200A is way better than the 200, and the 170 is way better still, as far as being able to use the LCD to judge focus.

Brad Neal
05-29-2008, 06:10 AM
Barry or Jan,
Will you be demoing the 170 in Chicago?

Butcher
05-29-2008, 06:30 AM
Consider it in around the same price as the HVX.

Thanks,

Jan

Thanks Jan. Good to hear.

Michael.

SPZ
05-29-2008, 06:58 AM
I can try to test some side by sides, but you have to keep in mind that this is a prototype, so any findings that get reported are preliminary and subject to change. No guarantees, one way or another; they might improve or change anything between now and the final release.

The LCD's peaking/EVF DTL is so much better it's startling. It's way, way easier to see focus on the 170. I mean, the 200A has about half as much improvement as the 170 does. The 200A is way better than the 200, and the 170 is way better still, as far as being able to use the LCD to judge focus.

Great, Barry!
Being it a prototype is also good, in that any shortcomings could still be addressed. That side by side would be fantastic. Even for a prototype!

Cees Mutsaers
05-29-2008, 12:57 PM
I am really curious if there are more new features hidden in the menue we didn/t know at NAB yet :D

FatDaddy
05-29-2008, 01:14 PM
Would be nice to get some shots along side a DVX-100 to see the size difference...

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 04:45 PM
I am really curious if there are more new features hidden in the menue we didn/t know at NAB yet :D
Yes.

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 04:46 PM
Would be nice to get some shots along side a DVX-100 to see the size difference...
I don't have any photos of that, but the 170 is like a half-inch longer and a half-inch taller than the DVX. It's really closer to a DVX in size than it is to the HVX.

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 04:47 PM
Barry or Jan,
Will you be demoing the 170 in Chicago?
I'm not involved in anything like that. I believe it's going to HD Expo, if that's what you mean by Chicago.

FatDaddy
05-29-2008, 05:31 PM
I don't have any photos of that, but the 170 is like a half-inch longer and a half-inch taller than the DVX. It's really closer to a DVX in size than it is to the HVX.

Is the weight and feel like the DVX?:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 06:36 PM
I didn't have a scale to put 'em on, but yes the weight and hand-holdable ergonomics are quite DVX-like.

Kholi
05-29-2008, 07:54 PM
Very tiny lil camera. Man, using this thing with a 35mm Adapter is gonna be great. Goin back to the DVX form factor and weight.

Still waiting to hear about these great tid bits that nobody expected.

Barry_Green
05-29-2008, 08:19 PM
I'm not sure that we didn't expect 'em, I mean, they're pretty much all straight off our request list...

Zander
05-29-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm not sure that we didn't expect 'em, I mean, they're pretty much all straight off our request list...
Are you sure you weren't a teenage girl once? Man, you're such a tease!

10s
05-29-2008, 09:12 PM
Will the camera retain the zebras in addition to the waveform scope.

David Shawl
05-29-2008, 11:20 PM
Thanks Jan. What I meant to ask was if the 170 can shoot 1080 Progressive in 24fps native, which isn't an option on the current HVX.


Hi,

It will do 1080, in both 30 frames and 24 frames. In the 24, it has to do a pull-down as it will do progressive frames as a segmented frame recording. No worries there, we have been doing this with the DVX and the HVX for years, they really are progressive frames.

Thansk,

Jan

Jan_Crittenden
05-30-2008, 02:51 AM
Thanks Jan. What I meant to ask was if the 170 can shoot 1080 Progressive in 24fps native, which isn't an option on the current HVX.

Hi, No it doesn't do a native mode in 1080 as that would require and major investment of resources in making a new format within the DVCPRO HD codec and ushering through the SMPTE committee et al. The only codec that does this in a Panasonic camera is the AVC-Intra and that is not on this camera.

And yes this camera will be at HD Expo next week.

Thanks,

Jan

Barry_Green
05-30-2008, 05:02 AM
Will the camera retain the zebras in addition to the waveform scope.
Of course.

Also, the WFM gets displayed on the LCD only, so the viewfinder can be used for framing and the LCD becomes basically a great big waveform monitor...

dwnsthballer
05-30-2008, 07:44 AM
Just out of curiosity (as I'm always curious when it comes to filmmaking), why stop at 60fps? Is there an obstacle that prevents cameras from going up to 120fps (I know RED is capable of it, but would love to see a Panny camera with that option).

Just wondering. Is it something with codecs or engineering or the way it would have to be recorded onto the media?

markyf
05-30-2008, 07:47 AM
Thinking of selling my DVX and I'll be one of the first to buy these. Question is, I have a 0.7 wide angle for my DVX that I really never use... only there for emergencies. I've gathered so far that the HPX170 is much wider than the DVX but how much so. If it's like 10%+ wider, I'll sell the wide angle too. Less than that and will still keep it for emergencies. 72mm mount on HPX170 will be same as DVX, correct? Same threading?

Adam J McKay
05-30-2008, 03:24 PM
I think 60 fps is the limit due to the incredible amount of information needed to shoot. Correct me if im wrong but the viper shoots 1000fps at 720p.

Barry_Green
05-30-2008, 06:14 PM
There is no video standard for faster than 60fps. And none of the codecs handles faster than 60fps. Those cameras that can go faster than 60fps (such as Red) don't shoot SMPTE-compliant video. The codec is a hardware chip that's built for video; they'd have to engineer a new non-SMPTE-compliant format for faster-than-60, and that's not likely gonna happen from a primarily video/broadcast company. Sony has a ridiculous ultra-low-res 240 fields per second mode on their FX7, but it has to buffer the footage in RAM and then take extra time after you stop recording to write that out from the buffer to the tape. That's about the only way you can do faster-than-60 and still be video-compliant.

Barry_Green
05-30-2008, 06:19 PM
Thinking of selling my DVX and I'll be one of the first to buy these. Question is, I have a 0.7 wide angle for my DVX that I really never use... only there for emergencies. I've gathered so far that the HPX170 is much wider than the DVX but how much so. If it's like 10%+ wider, I'll sell the wide angle too. Less than that and will still keep it for emergencies. 72mm mount on HPX170 will be same as DVX, correct? Same threading?
72mm is 72mm, so it should fit. The HPX170 is pretty darn wide. It's wider than the 200A, which is wider than the 200, which is wider than the 100. They claim 28.5mm, vs. about 32.5mm for the DVX.

Kholi
05-30-2008, 07:45 PM
Even wider than the 200A? Slightly or by far? Interesting indeed.

SPZ
05-30-2008, 09:15 PM
the hd-sdi out is, according to previous Barry and Jan posts, 8bit. But even uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2 looks better than anything 8bit compressed!

Barry_Green
05-31-2008, 10:39 AM
Even wider than the 200A? Slightly or by far? Interesting indeed.
Yes, wider than the 200A. Take the same chips, but use a 3.9mm lens instead of 4.2, and you get a field of view that's about 7% wider. The 35mm equivalencies that Panasonic quotes are:

HVX200: 32.5mm
HVX200A: 30.5mm
HPX170: 28mm

Kholi
05-31-2008, 11:24 AM
Yes, wider than the 200A. Take the same chips, but use a 3.9mm lens instead of 4.2, and you get a field of view that's about 7% wider. The 35mm equivalencies that Panasonic quotes are:

HVX200: 32.5mm
HVX200A: 30.5mm
HPX170: 28mm

That's very nice. Ignorance incoming: what kind of effect on apparent DOF does the wider lens have?

Barry_Green
05-31-2008, 12:03 PM
Practically none. You're talking about a minor decrease in focal length, combined with a minor increase in field of view size, so even though there's less telephoto you'll have to be closer to get the same field of view, and the two factors will probably cancel each other out. It's nothing like the difference from 1/3" to 2/3".

Joe Walker
05-31-2008, 03:27 PM
I think 60 fps is the limit due to the incredible amount of information needed to shoot. Correct me if im wrong but the viper shoots 1000fps at 720p.

The Viper has no variable frame rates, you're either stuck with (essentially) 24p, 30p, or 60i (all in different flavors and resolutions). If you're looking for excessively high frame rates, the Phantom HD can do up to 1500fps in 720p!!!

curranrowe
05-31-2008, 07:38 PM
Hi Jan & Barry,

The best way to test for a centered CCD will be to screw on a 35mm adapter (i.e. Cinevate Brevis) to the front threads of the HPX170.

Then you'll have to "frame up" the 36x24mm imaging element of the 35mm adapter. With the HVX200, since its CCD is off center relative to the 82mm front threads, when you zoom in the camcorders lens to frame up the adapter's imaging element, you will find that it does not line up perfectly from side-to-side and from top-to-bottom.

This is a dead giveaway that the camcorder's CCD is not centered relative to the front threads of the camcorder's lens. The CCD is slightly "off axis" but enough that an adapter user has to zoom in an additional amount to prevent vignetting.

I'm not sure if this is a quality control issue or a design flaw, but I have not yet encountered an HVX200 that is centered well. The Canon XH-G1 and A1 both have perfectly centered CCDs (the HV20 however, is another story - its CMOS imager is even more off axis than the HVX).

So I'm hoping that when the HPX170 goes into production, care is taken in the construction and design of the camera so that its CCD imaging block is perfectly centered in relation to the 72mm lens.

Please let us know if you're able to look into this issue. Thanks.


Have no idea. Sorry. Have not seen the camera totally close up. How would you test for this?
Thamks,
Jan

I was wondering if you knew: will the CCD sensor block of the HPX170 be perfectly centered relative to the lens?

On the HVX200, the sensor block was slightly off-center, which created an issue when mounting a 35mm adapter to the camera... when zooming in to the adapter ground glass image, the image ended up off center.

This is because the sensor block of the HVX is slightly off center in relation to the lens and filter threads.

Do you know if this issue be addressed in the new HPX170?

David Saraceno
06-01-2008, 11:29 AM
NAB2008 brochure says the 170 is NTSC/PAL switchable.

Is that correct?

FatDaddy
06-01-2008, 05:41 PM
It seems to still be on the chopping block, even with the brochure being from Panasonic . I don't think it will make it (based on some of the issues Jan has raised in previous posts).

DC
06-02-2008, 10:40 AM
. . . With the HVX200, since its CCD is off center relative to the 82mm front threads, when you zoom in the camcorders lens to frame up the adapter's imaging element, you will find that it does not line up perfectly from side-to-side and from top-to-bottom.

This is a dead giveaway that the camcorder's CCD is not centered relative to the front threads of the camcorder's lens. The CCD is slightly "off axis" but enough that an adapter user has to zoom in an additional amount to prevent vignetting.

I'm not sure if this is a quality control issue or a design flaw, but I have not yet encountered an HVX200 that is centered well . . .

From what I've heard through a reliable source, this is simply a by-product of a "sub-$6k camcorder" design and QC process. I'm not thrilled about that fact. However, I'm very grateful for all the really cool features that it does offer. If the HPX170 has a perfectly centered CCD, I'd be even happier.

buhce
06-04-2008, 11:01 AM
I'm torn between waiting for the HPX170 or saving up a little more for the HPX 500. Aside from the fact the 500 has a few more pro features, I really like the lens quality and was wondering if the 170 would have a lens quality closer to that of the 500 than the 200, since I prefer its size and weight.Does anyone happen the know about the quality of the 170's lens?

Barry_Green
06-04-2008, 12:07 PM
The 170's lens is a similar design to the 200's. The 500 doesn't have a lens, so you can't compare to that -- the 500 uses whatever lens you buy for it.

flatlander
06-04-2008, 05:19 PM
when will the camera be coming out?:thumbup:

Barry_Green
06-04-2008, 07:56 PM
September.

Daygola814
06-04-2008, 08:44 PM
So, Barry.... when can we expect this new article to go up? :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Barry_Green
06-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Soon. :evil:

fifthblade
06-05-2008, 06:52 AM
Greetings,

This is my first post to the forum.
Many thanks for such a great heads up article Barry - very much looking forward to the in-depth report, and to getting my hands on the camera at the Cine Gear Expo in LA this month.

I just stumbled across a listing for the HPX170 on the EAR.net website claiming the camera has a list price of $5,995 and offering it at a discount price of $5,195.00
and stating it comes with a 16GB P2 card included.

I didn't think this information had been confirmed yet.

http://www.ear.net/cgi-bin/estatusp?p=1&mode=stp&q=PAN-AGHPX170

hmm.
taking this with a pinch of salt.

FatDaddy
06-05-2008, 07:51 AM
That would be great if it was that price through a Pany authorized dealer (not sure if EAR is or not).

Would love a price around that with a free 16gb card.

Does not look like the 64gb cards will be ready at the same time as the 170 - any thoughts on the 64gb cards?

Daygola814
06-05-2008, 09:53 AM
Soon. :evil:

HAHAHAHA Barry, you're hysterical. You say soon, then the very next day I look, it's up! I'm about to read it now!

Thanks Barry!

mcbaldwin
07-06-2008, 10:02 AM
Lessen the NEED? Yes. Lessen the desire? No.

The EX1 will maintain its edge in sharpness. But the 170 even widens the gap in price difference, it should probably street at $1500 to $1800 less than the EX1.

The Ex1's sharpness goes away if you move the camera any faster than a slow creep. Then it turns into a mushy consumer-grade image.

---Mark

mcbaldwin
07-06-2008, 10:06 AM
The better LCD is a big issue. The lesser LCD makes me not want to buy Panasonic.

--Mark



Hello Jan,

Yes, 3 focus assist tools is very cool but for me not replace a good lcd or a good viewfinder, i use the focus assist of the hpx500 and i don't like it.

And Autofocus on the hvx200 is also very slow !

The sony ex1, the sony Z7, the canon XH-A1 have a good lcd why not the hpx170 ?

The P in hpx170 is for professional, no ?

I think many users are ready to pay a lot more for a camera that you can focus easily, focus directly with their eyes and not with gadgets, for me it's a waste of time.

I know the limitation of hdv and I like dvcpro HD but for me a good lcd or viewfinder is very more important than the weight, the frame rate button, the lcd flip...

But yes, probably, it would cost more to change the lcd for Panasonic, it's probably a question of marketting !

I just know that i will not pay for a hpx170 if the quality of the lcd or the viewfinder isn't enought good and i'm not alone in this case.

mcbaldwin
07-06-2008, 10:17 AM
P2 is an odd choice. It's a dead format and will require an odd-ball adapter for use with standard equipment. The only hope is that the new flash media (i.e. samsung's recently announced 256 gig flash drive) will replace it in the near future.



[QUOTE=Joe Lawry;1280919]Agh,, posts like these are painful.




Yes they can fit in macbook pros, but p2 cards can still fit in a hell of a lot of the new PC's and almost all old PCs and Macs.

kapil
07-18-2008, 02:46 PM
http://www.freshdv.com/podpress_trac...nic_hpx170.mov

The guy in this video is a tool. A stuttering tool.
And his grandma needs to go make me some cookies, and stop selling panasonic cameras.
hah.

Super excited about the HPX170;

booth
07-18-2008, 04:40 PM
The Ex1's sharpness goes away if you move the camera any faster than a slow creep. Then it turns into a mushy consumer-grade image.

---Mark

I took the opportunity to use an EX1 today, and this comment is just plain wrong. The EX1's sharpness does not go away, and it certainly isn't consumer. If so I'd like to know which consumer camera you've been using sir!

The EX1 records an excellent image, as will the forthcoming HPX170. I just wish that Panasonic would have exceeded the resolution and added a better LCD. The LCD on the EX1 is the best LCD I've ever seen on a prosumer camera, ever.

If you're going to knock the EX1, do it properly. Ergonimically, it's terrible.

Aerialsfilm M*
07-19-2008, 04:57 AM
The LCD is fine on the EX1. True. But I've used it enough to say I'll never use it again. I really don't like the image quality.

Everts
07-19-2008, 07:46 AM
Will the HPX170 be shipping with another awsome book or dvd " HPX170 sweetness at your fingertips",by yours truly Barry Green ?

booth
07-19-2008, 08:10 AM
The LCD is fine on the EX1. True. But I've used it enough to say I'll never use it again. I really don't like the image quality.

Well I have now purchased an EX1, and after fiddling with picture profiles and switching detail off, the image just gets better. I'm having to push the camera hard to get any jellycam (I'm in the UK where it's jelly rather than jello). I'm actually amazed that long GOP can look as good as this, though now I need to get out there and shoot something proper rather than flowers and the obligatory test footage.

What is tough about the EX1 is the initial learning curve. It's not as intuitive as the HVX200 (which I also have), but once it's second nature there's no problem. It's taken me a full afternoon to get my head around it.

Barry_Green
07-19-2008, 09:27 AM
Will the HPX170 be shipping with another awsome book or dvd " HPX170 sweetness at your fingertips",by yours truly Barry Green ?
No comment at this time.

David Saraceno
07-19-2008, 10:22 AM
No comment at this time.

Barry:

It's more than an hour later.

Can you comment now????

:)

Barry_Green
07-19-2008, 10:44 AM
Okay, comment: I'm going to update the book to include everything new on the HPX170.

As to when that'll be done, or whether it'll be included, for those questions I have no comment. :engel017:

David Saraceno
07-19-2008, 11:02 AM
Thanks.

best

jonnyh1968
07-21-2008, 02:50 PM
I'm sorry, I know the answer is in here somewhere. But what's the low-down on when the image in the LCD screen can be flipped or not - depending on the resolution mode your shooting in?

And can you flip the "monitor out" signal?

thank you

Barry_Green
07-21-2008, 07:25 PM
But what's the low-down on when the image in the LCD screen can be flipped or not - depending on the resolution mode your shooting in?
At all times.


And can you flip the "monitor out" signal?
No.

vic777
03-16-2009, 12:51 AM
The P in hpx170 is for professional, no ?I think the "p" designation refers to the sole use of P2 cards.