Fujifilm p2 card updates?

[jackmfs]

Any news on the FujiFilm P2 cards from all you folks at the NAB show?

pricing?

availability?

[Barry_Green]

The only things they said were "available in a few months" and "pricing will be competitive."

[dogman-x]

The only things they said were "available in a few months" and "pricing will be competitive."
I guess their estimate for Spring 2008 was optimistic. I hope prices fall significantly when competition becomes available. Maybe I'm dreaming...

[Barry_Green]

I think we're due for a price drop anyway, so yeah, maybe by the time the Fujis hit the market we'll see a price drop on all of them.

[Jeff Anderson]

Barry is there a date for the panasonic 64's yet? Hoping when they release the 32's will go down a notch to below 1000... Not betting, just hoping...

[alexdias]

Jan has mentioned Nov 2008 for the 64gig cards on a video at FreshDV.

[Jeff Anderson]

Cool, thanks Alex.

[mik303]

I work at a local TV station, and met one of our panasonic reps this morning. He told me that the Fuji cards would be shipping very soon, as in the next 30 days. The pricing is EXACTLY the same as the panasonic p2 cards. 16gb and 32gb will be available first. He told me that Panasonic is excited to have another manufacturer of the cards, and encouraged me to purchase from both manufacturers, because the quality is the same.

[mjjason]

I work at a local TV station, and met one of our panasonic reps this morning. He told me that the Fuji cards would be shipping very soon, as in the next 30 days. The pricing is EXACTLY the same as the panasonic p2 cards. 16gb and 32gb will be available first. He told me that Panasonic is excited to have another manufacturer of the cards, and encouraged me to purchase from both manufacturers, because the quality is the same.
I am a bit disappointed that it is exactly the same price (if that what it turns out to be). Other than line of supply why would someone chose Fuji over Panasonic. I know Fuji isn't some mom and pop shop but they are new to the market with P2 and do not have the performance history Panasonic has. I was hoping they would come in a little cheaper to entice people to adopt them and drive Panasonic to be more competitive. Right now it just seems like collusion.

[Justyn]

I'd say the same thing.. If it's the same price, who's going to buy that?.. unless the panny cards aren't available. I mean, I hate that I can buy a 16 gig SD card for 70 bucks... but a 16 gig P2card costs 10 times that amount.

[Barry_Green]

... and if nobody buys 'em, then you can likely expect that Fuji would respond with price cuts. Free market at work...

[Justyn]

Indeed Barry.. that will be great. I've been shooting for 2 years with 4 gig cards. I don't know what I'd do if I had 2x 32 gigers... I'd think I'd have died and went to heaven. Had to swap cards for a crowded concert the other night and it was work just doing that.


cheers and what has been keeping you busy lately?

[Adam J McKay]

Why is P2 so friggen expensive, you can get a 32g sd card for a fraction of the cost of p2. Isnt p2 essentially just made up of sd cards? I dont understand the cost factor.

[mjjason]

Why is P2 so friggen expensive, you can get a 32g sd card for a fraction of the cost of p2. Isnt p2 essentially just made up of sd cards? I dont understand the cost factor.
I think this has been covered many times on this forum. A P2 card isn't just sd cards. It also includes microcontrollers, raid, plus high reliablity standards that the card must meet so the cost increases signficantly from there. Plus the demand for P2 is no where near the mass market demand of standard SD cards. Its apples to oranges really.

[mjjason]

... and if nobody buys 'em, then you can likely expect that Fuji would respond with price cuts. Free market at work...
I hope that is the case Barry. Just somewhat disappointed that they are not going for it right off the bat (at least based on what we are hearing).

[puredrifting]

The cost of P2 cards also includes zero defect components. Anyone who dealt on the manufacturing side of any mass produced electronics can tell you that when massive quantities of any high tech item are produced, there are defect rates. With drives, they call it MTBF, or Mean Time Before Failure. The higher the MTBF, the more expensive the drive is and is used in higher end servers and or Mil-spec applications. With silicon chips, they only get a small perentage of perfect chips per run. Same with RAM, Videotape, SD cards, etc. The best CCDs and CMOS imagers go into high end broadcast cameras, then industrial cameras, then consumer cameras that sit on the shelf at Best Buy. Statistically, the chips in the cheaper cameras have more initial defect and fail rates, that's why they are put into the $299.00 specials. It's even the same with vegetable seeds. The ones you buy in the little packets at the market, they have a germination rate of like, 20% whereas the ones that a farmer buys from the seed company have germination rates of like, 98%. What does the seed company care about more, selling tiny packets of low yield leftovers to consumers for their window boxes or selling hundreds of pounds to industrialized farmers for a big profit? It's the same in most mass produced products.

Do you really thing that Kingston $80.00 SD card is as reliable as the SD cards that are/were used in P2 cards? How many P2 cards going defective do you read about on DVX User? Panasonic couldn't hang their professional video line on a format that has even a limited number of defects, they had to spec out zero or very low rate defect components to make up P2 cards.

That's one thing I don't understand about RED. I know that you are supposed to only use RED approved CF cards, right? I wonder if we will see more defective cards wth lost shoots and footage on the RED cards than we have on P2 cards, would be interesting to track this over the next year.

I am not saying that the P2 pricing structure is fair and that Panasonic hasn't made a killing off of P2 cards, I am sure that they have. I agree, the price is too high, but I did want to point out that some of the higher cost is justified. I have shot about 4,000 to 5,000 8GB cards worth of material since early 2006 and have not experienced a SINGLE defect from any P2 card. That is impressive because I have experienced several regular SD and CF cards dying in the same timeframe. So that is worth an extra significant cost.

The Fuji cards? If they are the same cost, why would anyone buy them? Weird business strategy unless Panasonic is subsidizing them just to open up supply? I guess if you can't find the P2 cards from Panasonic when you need them, you will buy the Fujis but other than that, I would always buy the Pannys, unless the Fujis were at least 20% less in cost.

Dan

[10s]

I bet Fuji will do great at chip/card making because their chemical/film market is going down, in other words they have to do well or they'll have to get out of the photo image capture market all together. Maybe they have a whole different strategy up their sleeve, we'll see.

I would like to know more about the chip pass/fail rates by these SD chip mfgs. It seems to me that total quality management lowers mfg. cost while yielding higher success rates, look at Toyota. I had the experience to meet and work with one of the original sensei masters responsible for the TPS.

Honestly, I think the P2 is a high cost item because it can be, kinda like gas these days.

[dantewaters]

The cost of P2 cards also includes zero defect components.

Do you really thing that Kingston $80.00 SD card is as reliable as the SD cards that are/were used in P2 cards? How many P2 cards going defective do you read about on DVX User? Panasonic couldn't hang their professional video line on a format that has even a limited number of defects, they had to spec out zero or very low rate defect components to make up P2 cards.
Dan


Man Dan well explained... I really didn't think of it like that. I guess I'll be buying more expensive CF cards for my 20D. The single 16gig card I have feels solid, but I am anxious for my 2nd one to arrive in the mail (spec - Comm didn't have cards in stock when I ordered my HVX). I am glad I was able to format one of my 250Gig drives so that the camera can dump in field all I need now is a power supply for the drive and I am good as gold.

[puredrifting]

Man Dan well explained... I really didn't think of it like that. I guess I'll be buying more expensive CF cards for my 20D. The single 16gig card I have feels solid, but I am anxious for my 2nd one to arrive in the mail (spec - Comm didn't have cards in stock when I ordered my HVX). I am glad I was able to format one of my 250Gig drives so that the camera can dump in field all I need now is a power supply for the drive and I am good as gold.

Yes, the P2 cards are pretty impressive as far as reliability. A DP I used to work with is VERY anti-P2, refuses to shoot with the formats, makes fun of the format. He told me the big reason he is down on P2 is because he heard of a shoot where a person was carrying P2 cards with shot material on them in their pockets with some change and the static electricity from the material in the pocket, the P2 card and the change shorted out the P2 card and they lost all of the shoot.

Hmm...as we all know here as responsible P2 users, you would have to be a complete idiot to run around with bare P2 cards anywhere, you should always have the rubber cap on them and have them in the case, closed with the orange tab protection showing. I told him that might have been true, but if I stuck a bare DV tape in my pocket all day, the door could break, I could shed lint or dirt into the tape mechanism with the same end result. That is abuse and only stupid people would do that.

Panasonic came up with a very good format and I like using it.

D

[Barry_Green]

He told me the big reason he is down on P2 is because he heard of a shoot where a person was carrying P2 cards with shot material on them in their pockets with some change and the static electricity from the material in the pocket, the P2 card and the change shorted out the P2 card and they lost all of the shoot.
This is an utter load of crap though -- this is the stuff that Sony was saying in their booth at NAB 2007 that caused a few of us to blow a gasket.

I put this to the test -- I put a bare P2 card in my pocket, then I went to the casino cashier and got $10 worth of dimes and dumped 'em all in that same pocket. Then I wandered around the casino floor, swishing the card around with the change, trying to statify the hell out of it.

Then, since Sony was also telling people that magnetic interference from CRT monitors could cause a problem, I went to the CRT slot machines and rubbed the card all over the monitors, on the front, on the back, anywhere.

Then I walked through the entire convention center (still with that card, raw and bare, unprotected in a pocket full of dimes). Then I threw the card on the carpet and dragged it all over the carpet to work up as much static as I could.

Then I put the card in a camera. It played, just as perfectly as it did on day one.

Your DP friend has been victimized by a pack of lies courtesy of the Sony corporation.

And, curiously, they then released their own solid state media a few months later, and they specifically warn against static electricity and also against getting cell phones too near the cards! Ridiculous. Pathetic. And grossly irritating.

[puredrifting]

I totally agree Barry. Interesting that this DP happened to have been hired by both Sony and Panavision to shoot test material to promote the F35 and the Genesis, isn't it?

I always treat my P2 cards with kid gloves as far as always putting the rubber cap on and putting them in the case but it is reassuring to know that if I am ever in a rougher situation, the cards and the material will make it through intact.

Dan


This is an utter load of crap though -- this is the stuff that Sony was saying in their booth at NAB 2007 that caused a few of us to blow a gasket.

I put this to the test -- I put a bare P2 card in my pocket, then I went to the casino cashier and got $10 worth of dimes and dumped 'em all in that same pocket. Then I wandered around the casino floor, swishing the card around with the change, trying to statify the hell out of it.

Then, since Sony was also telling people that magnetic interference from CRT monitors could cause a problem, I went to the CRT slot machines and rubbed the card all over the monitors, on the front, on the back, anywhere.

Then I walked through the entire convention center (still with that card, raw and bare, unprotected in a pocket full of dimes). Then I threw the card on the carpet and dragged it all over the carpet to work up as much static as I could.

Then I put the card in a camera. It played, just as perfectly as it did on day one.

Your DP friend has been victimized by a pack of lies courtesy of the Sony corporation.

And, curiously, they then released their own solid state media a few months later, and they specifically warn against static electricity and also against getting cell phones too near the cards! Ridiculous. Pathetic. And grossly irritating.

[David Saraceno]

My thought is why has Sony (if they have actually) stooped to this ridiculous level. Or at least at the representative level?

I don't get it.

28 months with our HVX200 and a original 8 GB card, and it still keeps on ticking.

[Justyn]

amazing what corporations will spew..


i remember Jan saying that she had a card that went through the washer and it still worked after that. Maybe sony was trying to cover for their production defects that riddled the EX when it came out.

[Jason Miller]

Your DP friend has been victimized by a pack of lies courtesy of the Sony corporation.

And, curiously, they then released their own solid state media a few months later, and they specifically warn against static electricity and also against getting cell phones too near the cards! Ridiculous. Pathetic. And grossly irritating.


So enough holding back already, what do you really think?

[Mr Whippy]

Sony eh.

One minute installing DRM software illegally via music CD's to owners computers with no uninstall functionality, the next minute helping propogate rumours of Panasonics solid state P2's of being easily corrupted...

;)

Dave

[jimmyjohn]

I hadn't noticed this page up before, and the URL isn't in the Wayback Machine:
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/pro_av/p2_memory_cards/p2_32gb/index.html

Is this a new product page, possibly indicating the Fujifilm P2 is more ready than it was recently?

[alexdias]

It looks promising.
Hopefully it hits the market soon which will certainly create a bit mote of price competition.

[Dick Campbell]

I see they misused the word "compliments" in the ad. Hopefully their attention to detail in the P2 card is better.

[ProfessorU]

I haven't seen any issues with RED CF cards yet. The HDD leaves something to be desired, though.

Static can even destroy film. You wouldn't walk around with a reel of film in your pocket all day, right? P2 is the most rugged and reliable format I have ever used. I would go so far as to call it static, vibration, high temp, low temp, high-pressure, low-pressure, magnetism, water, shock, x-ray, and idiot resistant.

The label looks cooler on the Fuji cards... maybe that's worth something? ;)

[davbeisner]

So if I'm looking to buy an HVX200A with P2 cards soon, would it be worth it to wait until Fujifilm releases their cards in hopes that the price might come down a bit? I don't have a major production waiting in the wings right now, so I could theoretically delay purchase as much as a month... Or should I just buy the camera now so I can start getting used to it and use it just with the included 16GB card and wait to buy more cards until Fuji releases?

[ProfessorU]

Buy the cards as you need them. They will only go down in price.

[pranic]

That's exactly what I'm worried about (well, not really worried). I'm waiting for Fuji to come out with their cards in case the prices drop some more. I can continue shooting to the FS-100 indefinitely, but there are times when I would be extremely happy with a P2 card for run & gun stuff.

[David Saraceno]

May be I'm wrong here, but I don't see any substantial price drops until the 64GB cards are released at year's end.

[pranic]

David,

I think you're absolutely right, though I wonder if the release of the 64gb will cause the 32gb, and 16gb cards to drop in price?

I remember seeing in Jan's interview with freshdv, that they're going to re-introduce an 8GB P2 card, so I can't imagine they're going to drop the prices significantly across the entire line. That said, I can't imagine paying $2000+ for a 64GB P2 card either, but until they release pricing on the 64GB card, I think I'm going to hold off on my purchase.

I'd like a 32gb card, but can't justify the $$ right now. I could deal with a used 16gb card in the $500-700 range, though.

[Mac]

Personnaly, I like the size of the 16g cards, I hope Panasonic (or Fuji) don't faze them out... A 16g, shooting 720/24pn, is a nice size...

[Noel Evans]

I agree mac. Seems to fit the offload speeds well. Because of the reasonable size I think Id prefer to carry 10 16s, and offload these as preferred to 5 64s, in the field.

[Jason Miller]

any news on these fuji cards. or was that warm breeze of hope, just a bunch of hot air?

[ProfessorU]

Allegedly they're available, but they are the same price as Panasonic cards, so no real reason to rush to buy them.

[Jason Miller]

where can they be bought, I havent seen any dealer seling them

[John Godden]

Allegedly they're available, but they are the same price as Panasonic cards, so no real reason to rush to buy them.

Why does that not surprise me.

JohnG

[ecking]

Allegedly they're available, but they are the same price as Panasonic cards, so no real reason to rush to buy them.

I'd buy them to show other companies that there is interest in other companies making P2 cards. If there the same what's the harm? Panasonic doesn't need the money and knows they'll sell, it's the only way to encourage other people to license P2 technology. It'd be great it canon or jvc signed on imo. They're obviously going to have to tapeless on their pro cams soon.

[Angelcyk]

Just wondering if anybody has any FugiFilm P2 card update.

[Tom 4]

Hi Angel,
I've been using a P2 32gig Fuji card now for about three months or so, Its no different than the Pana 32 gig cards I have, Except it was cheaper, as I have a good relationship with the dealer here in Australia.
I believe your guys in the US have not heard anything, that's sad. Pic on my site.

ask these guys why they aren't available in the US.
http://www.fujifilmusa.com/support/ServiceSupportContactForm.do?catid=464195&detailid=464202

Cheers
Tom k
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[ChipG]

Tom,

The Fuji, maxell and panny cards are all made at the same factory with different stickers put on them. It kind of ruinned all are hopes of some P2 card price competition...

So the 128 gig P2 card will cost $4799.00 and be out this summer? Waht have you heard?

[DC]

9402

While searching for Maxell P2 cards, I was lead to Panasonic's site recently and saw this interesting little tidbit:

"What's inside a P2 card?

P2 cards are high-precision micro-computers with their own processors, firmware, a RAID controller, and gigabytes of the highest-quality zero-fault solid-state memory chips. A P2 card is an intelligent device that manages the data files — and even does a write-verification step for every byte of memory that gets written to the card (thus assuring fault-free operation). Early P2 cards were manufactured using actual SD memory cards in a striped RAID array, thus increasing the performance far beyond any individual memory chip’s speed. The newest generation of P2 cards dispenses with using individual SD memory cards and actually uses the core memory components."

[Tom 4]

Tom,

The Fuji, maxell and panny cards are all made at the same factory with different stickers put on them. It kind of ruinned all are hopes of some P2 card price competition...
So the 128 gig P2 card will cost $4799.00 and be out this summer? Waht have you heard?

Price competition,
well, that's up to your retailer to give you "their Best Price", I got mine much cheaper than the pana's as I don't get any cuts from pana suppliers.

P2 128gig, for me, "Forget it". Just too dammed expensive. I as everyone has a limit, maybe that's the how our Aussie networks have seen it too, 3 out of four are switching to XDCam.

All this has been debated before in many other threads. I'm happy with 3 x 32gig and 2 x 8 gig cards gives me over 4hrs DVpro50 up the spout.

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[Lez]

Tom I'm also in Oz.. based out of Canberra.. how much were the cards from Fuji...

I use to have a good relationship with them when I shot 16mm but that was many years ago...

Are they still associated with Hanimex out of Mona Vale...

Cheers

www.les.herstik.com