Panasonic Announces New HPX-170

[hungrych]

http://www.freshdv.com/2008/04/panasonic-announces-new-hpx-170.html

Continuing with Panasonics announcements from their press conference the newly announced HPX-170. I’ll reserve any thoughts on these cameras until I can get my hands on them tomorrow, but my initial response is that this camera will not be the HVX200a or HVX200 replacement.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i62/hamtehman/ag-hpx170-in-hand.jpg

Press Release:
LAS VEGAS, NV (April 13, 2008) – Panasonic unveiled here at NAB the AG-HPX170, a fully solid-state P2 HD handheld camcorder. A full production quality tool, the solid-state handheld camcorder enables high definition and standard definition recording, the widest zoom lens in its class, and a HD-SDI interface for connection to baseband production and distribution infrastructure, all in a lightweight 4.2-pound body.
Fully solid-state, the two-slot HPX170 is a 1080p capable camcorder that offers the compelling advantages of P2 technology including: no moving parts unlike tape, hard disk drive, or disc-based systems; instant random access to recorded HD or SD content; a faster IT compatible file-based workflow; and the ability to operate in harsh environments with resistance to temperature extremes, shock and vibration.
Building on the success of the AG-HVX200, the HPX170 is equipped with new advanced 1/3-inch 16:9 3-CCDs and a high-performance digital signal processor with 14-bit A/D conversion and 19-bit processing to deliver broadcast-quality, independent frame recordings. The HPX170 offers a 13X Leica Dicomar zoom lens with a 28mm wide-angle setting (the widest in its class) and a cam-driven manual zoom for smooth, easy and precise operation. For added flexibility, the camera provides auto or manual focus and iris.
The multi-format camera records in 20 HD and SD formats; in a variety of 1080i and 720p formats in DVCPRO HD, in 480i in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO, and in 480i in DV. It’s switchable between 16:9/4:3 aspect ratios. The HPX170 offers a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects. For added creative flexibility, professionals can select from a variety of advanced gamma functions and settings including a CineGammaTM mode.
With its two P2 card slots, users can record up to 64 continuous minutes of the highest quality DVCPRO HD recording using currently available 32GB P2 cards. Record times will double with the release of Panasonic’s 64GB P2 card in the fall. Other user-friendly recording modes include hot swapping for non-stop recording, loop record, pre-record, interval and one-shot recording. A time/date stamp function makes it ideal for use in law enforcement environments.
The HPX170 is equipped with an HD/SD-SDI output standard for live feed productions as well as for editing and monitoring. It also has IEEE 1394 and USB 2.0 interfaces for fast P2 content transfer into NLE systems, and offers a composite output, component output (mini D-terminal) and a time-code setting via IEEE 1394. The camera also features a built-in stereo microphone and two-channel XLR audio input terminals supporting 48V phantom power supply with a selectable mic/line; and manual audio level volume (two-channel). Other convenient operational features include clip preview on the camera’s 3.5” color LCD monitor; instant recording startup, scene files, assignable user buttons, focus assist and a camera remote function.
The AG-HPX170 will be available in fall 2008. It will be covered by Panasonic’s five-year limited P2 HD warranty*.
About P2 HD
P2 HD all solid-state products offer high-definition recording without the mechanical wear and environmental limitations of tape, hard disk, and optical disc based systems. P2 HD ensures the highest
reliability, especially in challenging conditions of extreme temperature range, shock, and vibration. P2 HD products provide a significant reduction in maintenance costs, longer useful product life, and immediate access to recorded video (no need to digitize, ingest or create proxy video files) and metadata. P2 HD provides the reliability of solid-state production; the immediate connectivity to existing IT infrastructures; the speed, ease of use and portability of P2 cards; and interoperability with leading NLE systems.
About Panasonic Broadcast
Panasonic Broadcast & Television Systems Co. is a leading supplier of broadcast and professional video products and systems. Panasonic Broadcast is a unit company of Panasonic Corporation of North
America. The company is the North American headquarters of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (NYSE: MC) of Japan, and the hub of its U.S. marketing, sales, service and R&D operations. For more information on Panasonic Broadcast products, access the company’s web site at www.panasonic.com/broadcast.
*To lower total ownership costs, Panasonic offers a five-year limited warranty (Panasonic Broadcast’s normal 1-year basic warranty plus an extended warranty for years two through five upon product registration).

[Huy Vu]

Interesting. Feature wise it sounds exactly like an HVX, although there is no noticeable new feature to be found except for the HD-SDI port. If this is not a replacement how are they going to distinguish this product from the HVX? Hopefully this won't be a case of the Canon A1/G1 style of marketing.

[tmnt]

errr... I don't get it. So it's a HVX with HD-SDI?

[matt s.]

No tape mech. So for those strictly working with P2 without the need for a tape ever i would consider it an HVX replacement.

[Nik Manning]

What is the price? Hearing about 1/3 inch chip cameras just seem so plain now. Hopefully this is Priced to compete with the Canon A1.

[Barry_Green]

errr... I don't get it. So it's a HVX with HD-SDI?
Mostly, yes. But it's smaller, lighter, and adds HD-SDI, a waveform monitor, increased sensitivity, lower noise, another ND filter position, a wider-angle lens, and a few other things. I'll know more tomorrow. Right now it's a tapeless HVX with a lot of nice little improvements (like, its firewire port is six-pin instead of 4-pin).

[Barry_Green]

Interesting. Feature wise it sounds exactly like an HVX, although there is no noticeable new feature to be found except for the HD-SDI port. If this is not a replacement how are they going to distinguish this product from the HVX? Hopefully this won't be a case of the Canon A1/G1 style of marketing.
The HVX is bigger and fatter and has tape, the 170 is smaller and thinner and lighter and has no tape, and has a few other new features (at least, ones that I could see on the outside. There may be more lurking under the hood, but the one I saw wasn't a functional model).

[Barry_Green]

What is the price?
Wasn't mentioned. I would anticipate it being in the same ballpark as the 200, but maybe a little lower because it has a smaller model number.


Hearing about 1/3 inch chip cameras just seem so plain now. Hopefully this is Priced to compete with the Canon A1.
Why not the XLH1S? That's a 1/3" camera at $9,000. This unit has HD-SDI, which means they're aiming at a higher market than the Canon A1; more like the Canon G1.

[LightMast]

I think I see a Focus/Iris switch for the focus ring (presumably), which would be nice.

[Tzedekh]

Wasn't mentioned. I would anticipate it being in the same ballpark as the 200, but maybe a little lower because it has a smaller model number.It can't be that much lower, seeing as how the HMC-150's MSRP will be around $4,500 (which is $500-$1,000 more than most predictions here).

[poweredbyjolt]

Does anyone else think these new panny's look cheap? I look at it and I just think they missed the mark.

[SPZ]

Initial imopressions from the press:

Aestheticaly Looks like the HMC-150, but recording to P2.

Performance wise sounds like the same as the HVX, but with the HD-SDI option.

My guess is that the HMC, HVX and this HPX 170 share the same 1/3 CCD block. However, this can only be proven with hands-on experience.

Heard the CCD's are now 1280x720 native pixel shifted. We need Barry, and Adam Witt to do some hands on on these!

Personal opinion following the competition announcements: disappointed.

EDIT- And the 5 slot p2 to Express card adapter for 2000 dollars? Come on!

[hungrych]

Does anyone else think these new panny's look cheap? I look at it and I just think they missed the mark.

Yea =P

[Alex.Mitchell]

Heard the CCD's are now 1280x720 native pixel shifted. We need Barry, and Adam Witt to do some hands on on these!

That'd sweet, but I've always laboured under the impression that higher pixel counts mean lower individual pixel sensor sizes, which leads to greater smearing, lower sensitivity, and lower latitude.

[Barry_Green]

It can't be that much lower, seeing as how the HMC-150's MSRP will be around $4,500 (which is $500-$1,000 more than most predictions here).
Well, you gotta learn to read between the words. When the HVX200 was announced, Panasonic said it would be "less than $10,000" -- it ended up being $5995. When the HD100 was introduced, JVC said it would be "less than $10,000" -- it ended up being $6295.

All they've said is "less than $4500". I doubt it will be $4495! I'm betting on $3995 with a street price of $3495. But if the dollar continues to plunge against the Yen, then maybe it will be $4500 by then. I think they gave vague pricing primarily to protect themselves from further erosion of the exchange rate. But, we'll see in September/October/November, whenever they come out.

[Barry_Green]

Does anyone else think these new panny's look cheap? I look at it and I just think they missed the mark.
I dunno, I saw the models and I thought they looked slick. Sort of a step back towards the more-mechanical hard edge of the DVX100, less of the bulbous puffiness of the HVX200.

[Barry_Green]

Personal opinion following the competition announcements: disappointed.
Disappointed that the competition announced a $13,000 product, and Panasonic announced a $5800 product and a $4500 product? Well, if you want to compare a $13,000 EX3 against a $4500 HMC150 and think they should be the same, then yes I could see why someone would be disappointed. But for 1/3 the price, I think they look pretty cool.

Apparently Panasonic doesn't intend to "answer" the EX3 with anything other than the existing 2/3" HPX500. As far as answering the EX1, the 170 may be what we get. I'd have to test 'em side by side, but they're claiming increased sensitivity, decreased noise, and lower smear: all of which directly competes against the EX1's advantages. So all you're really left with, image-wise, is a sharper rolling-shutter imager vs. a softer no-rolling-shutter imager (and, oh yeah, it'll probably be about $2,000 less.)

The Japanese companies seem to really hate to go head-to-head anywhere. The more I learn about them, the more convinced I become that they parcel the market up amongst themselves. Each apparently gets to stake out some territory. Everyone seems content to let Sony have the 1/2" arena all to themselves; Panasonic has claimed the low-cost 1/3" market and the low-cost 2/3". Canon seems to limit themselves to HDV tape, and JVC gets the 720P market.


EDIT- And the 5 slot p2 to Express card adapter for 2000 dollars? Come on!
Yeah, I was really hoping for a $500 single-slot device, but that didn't happen.

[Huy Vu]

The HVX is bigger and fatter and has tape, the 170 is smaller and thinner and lighter and has no tape, and has a few other new features (at least, ones that I could see on the outside. There may be more lurking under the hood, but the one I saw wasn't a functional model).

True, but will that be enough difference for the consumer? If there isn't one huge selling point that differentiate the two cameras, people will always go for the newer version assuming that it's better. On the other hand, if this is an A1/G1 situation, where the 170 is basically a higher priced version of the "basic" HVX model, then I'm willing to bet that it's not gonna do well. Very few people wanted the pay an extra $2000 for the G1's jackpack, and I doubt they would want to pay just for waveform monitor.

[Tzedekh]

Well, you gotta learn to read between the words. When the HVX200 was announced, Panasonic said it would be "less than $10,000" -- it ended up being $5995. When the HD100 was introduced, JVC said it would be "less than $10,000" -- it ended up being $6295.

All they've said is "less than $4500". I doubt it will be $4495! I'm betting on $3995 with a street price of $3495. But if the dollar continues to plunge against the Yen, then maybe it will be $4500 by then.Maybe, but "less than $4,500" is a lot more specific than "less than $10,000" -- why not "less than $5,000" or "less than $4,000"? And regarding the dollar's decline relative to the yen, Panasonic could charge $4,500, but then it would be in danger of alienating the huge U.S. market. Of course, we haven't heard the MSRP of the HVX200A. If Panasonic raises the price much above $6,000 when the reported improvements have been underwhelming (not even an LCD flip), then maybe it will go for $4,500 on the 150.

[Camera Expert]

For people who don’t usually lift weights, the HPX170 could be an excellent choice compared to the EX1 unless their used to carrying a stabilizer. The weight advantage of the HPX170 is definitely something to consider.

[Barry_Green]

True, but will that be enough difference for the consumer? If there isn't one huge selling point that differentiate the two cameras, people will always go for the newer version assuming that it's better. On the other hand, if this is an A1/G1 situation, where the 170 is basically a higher priced version of the "basic" HVX model, then I'm willing to bet that it's not gonna do well. Very few people wanted the pay an extra $2000 for the G1's jackpack, and I doubt they would want to pay just for waveform monitor.
And if the 170 is higher priced, you may be right. But I'm betting it's lower priced. Panasonic has not, that I'm aware of, ever introduced a new model with a lower model number, and charged more than an existing higher-model number.

100B: $2995.
150: "under $4500".
170: ? Presumably over $4500 and under $5995
200: $5995
500: $14,000
2000: $27,000
3000: $48,000.

As the model number goes up, so does the price. I could be wrong, but I think the 170 will be less expensive than the 200A. It just makes sense.

[Jockomo]

When I originally saw the 170 I thought it looked kind of bare. But when you consider all of the stuff people usually trick these out with; matte box, monitor, rails etc, I think it will look pretty nice.

Swapping the DV tape drive for HD-SDI out and a better imager are some very good moves. There is a lot to like here, I think this will be a very popular camera.

[Robin Leveille]

Does anyone else think these new panny's look cheap? I look at it and I just think they missed the mark.
Yes it does look cheap .... but remember this is a mockup. The final model may look different. Notice the buttons under the lcd screen on the picture, they are made of cardboard!! haha and the lettering is peeling off. The hvx200 looked similar as a mockup but changed when the final model came out. they added the speaker on the viewfinder side and some other things I can't quite remember.

[florisvaneck]

What about the 1080p, is it only through the HD-SDI or also to P2?

[ecking]

The focus/Iris switch seems cool. Could be useful to us adapter guys. Set your back focus and switch the ring to iris. What I really want on these suckers is a nice lcd screen. With 3 new cams all coming out at the same time there's a good opportunity to simply give them all the same nice sharp lcd. Come on Panasonic stop making videos bragging about your 17" and make a useable inbuilt lcd! (The hvx's is semi usable)

[FatDaddy]

I will need to check it out today (oh it's late in NV). Could be a sweet deal for someone just getting into HD.

[delaro]

wasn't the hvx200 announced for fall too, 3 years ago? with panasonic users experience, when do u think the 170 will be available? december?

[Bokes]

No word on the LCD?
If this camera can match the EX-1 in Low light, Low noise, and LCD-
I might consider coming back to Panasonic. I hope so.
But for some reason I just feel this camera might be a transition camera before the real deal- The sony EX1 is so good and it's stealing P2 thunder- panasonic had to react-?

[dvpixl]

So this is still a mock up? Thought it was final.

The HVX didn't look that different either from mock up to final to be honest...or maybe i just dont remember....

[Daygola814]

Of all the cameras, this one has me the most excited. If it's using the same imager as the HVX200a, and if it falls between the HMC150 and HVX200a, then I may just get this. I hope there's more info on pricing, features, etc...

After reading Barry's article on the HVX200a's new features, this cam or the HVX200a has really got me interested.

[Erik Olson]

The HPX170 has a better specification than the HVX200 - unless you need tape-based DV25.

e

[iakeij]

is this camera both pal and ntsc?

iakeij

[Brad Neal]

This camera looks like the perfect complement to my twin 500's. I just hope I can hold out until fall.

[Mister Big]

I like the HPX170 because it's basically the HVX, but smaller and lighter. I can live without tape. The price may depend on whether or what kind of P2 card is included by default.

[ilauzirika]

Any news from NAB? more info?

[snowleopard]

Odd that the viewfinder seems static, rigid. Not very user friendly. I hope this is only on the mock-up.

Disappointed that the iris is still a dial, and not it's own ring on the lens, but the dual focus/iris might be usable. Is the lens still an infinite spinner type? I wish those would die.

The coolest thing to me on the camera is a built-in waveform monitor. Histograms are nice, but this is a really nice feature on Panny's part.

I was never once disappointed by the pixel-shift on the HVX. It looked just as HD to me as the cameras with more pixels. Having said that, putting more pixels on the chip probably won't hurt, especially if it's native 720p now, and you shoot 720p (which is wonderful to me).

Agree with Barry on the lack of competition the big Japanese companies seek. It's peculiar. It's the one thing I like about Red and some of the other new players on the market. Agree on price also. This is a nicely priced camera in it's market range.

[Luis Caffesse]

putting more pixels on the chip probably won't hurt, especially if it's native 720p now, and you shoot 720p (which is wonderful to me).

I haven't seen anything official stating that the 170 or 200a have higher res chips.
Did I miss something?

[Kholi]

I think that someone mentioned the chips were 720.

That would mean higher resolution, though, and barry G didn't report seeing any higher resolution or better sharpness between the two.

[Luis Caffesse]

I think that someone mentioned the chips had to be larger (by some means) So it's assumed that they were 1/3" 720 chips.

That would mean higher resolution, though, and barry G didn't report seeing any higher resolution between the two.

Barry made a mention that they may be a little larger due to the change in field of view between the 200 and 200a - but like you said, that says nothing of the pixel count.

In fact, if they are touting lower noise and better low light ability - that would kind of go against increasing pixel count, seems to me.

[snowleopard]

Page 2, by SPZ, says chips are reported to be 1280x720.

Anyway, maybe I read it wrong as to what that means??

[Luis Caffesse]

Ah...
Well looking at it, what he said was:

Heard the CCD's are now 1280x720 native pixel shifted.

That doesn't sound like official info to me - sounds like something he heard...and we're not sure where he heard it from. Also, I have no idea what "native pixel shifted" would mean. Either the chips are 1280x720 natively or they aren't...and if they aren't then there is pixel shifting being done to get there. Seem like mutually exclusive terms to me - then again I don't work in marketing.
:)

Regardless - I can't help but think that if the chips had increased in res by 33% that that would have been at the top of Barry's article. As far as I know Panasonic hasn't made any claims on pixel count one way or the otherl.

[TheMusician]

Has anyone heard any updates on the LCD quality of the 170 and the 200A? This was one area that I was hoping to see improvements, but I haven't heard anything yet. Thanks for any info.

[New_Zealand]

When the say it will be for sale in the fall what month are they talking about? July would be nice :-)

[New_Zealand]

I'm sure everyone has seen this link on the 170 but just in case here it is;

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=240664&modelNo=Content04102008125519917&surfModel=Content04102008125519917

[Luis Caffesse]

When the say it will be for sale in the fall what month are they talking about? July would be nice :-)

July is right in the middle of the summer... at least here.
Generally I would expect sometime in Q4.
But I'm just guessing.

[Barry_Green]

Has anyone heard any updates on the LCD quality of the 170 and the 200A? This was one area that I was hoping to see improvements, but I haven't heard anything yet. Thanks for any info.
The 200A uses the same LCD panel. The 170 and 150 are not finished products. I expect they'll probably use that same LCD, but there's a lot of time between now and October/Nov/Dec/whenever they get released, so we'll see what they actually ship with.

[Barry_Green]

Regarding chip resolution, I didn't see anything to imply that it's higher-res chips.

[snowleopard]

July is right in the middle of the summer... at least here.

Actually, August is more like the middle of summer (June 22 to Sept 22nd, roughly) but one can hope...

Does the 150 have waveform monitoring? Or only the 170. What a great feature. Histograms are nice, but waveform is something else. Super kudos to Panny for putting this on there, even if only the 170.

[Clark]

I also got excited and initially assumed 1280x720 CCDs, however, re-reading the press release, what is actually said is "...the HPX170 is equipped with new advanced 1/3-inch 16:9 3-CCDs..." "New" and "Advanced", doesn't necessarily mean 1280x720, as many of us had hoped.

Another press release (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=239664&modelNo=Content04102008124337622&surfModel=Content04102008124337622) says of the HVX200A "...now featuring improved progressive 3-CCD imagers..." Even this does not necessarily indicate native 720P CCDs. Barry, you may be on to something: the big four manufacturers may be allowing JVC to hang on to that calling card.

On a side note: If anyone missed it, the HVX200A is also "...Incorporating these new premium quality 3-CCD imagers and the 28mm zoom lens of the new HPX170..."

[SPZ]

Sorry guys. Post taken out.

For the chips resolution, better wait for Jan confirmation, Barry or Adam Witt's testing.

[snowleopard]

Waveform monitor on the 150? Or just 170? Anyone know?

Personally, I thought the pixel shifting worked/works great. Anyone who doesn't think the HVX200 is real HD because of this isn't looking at the actual picture the camera produces, but numbers on paper. In my opinion anyway.

[SPZ]

Waveform monitor on the 150? Or just 170? Anyone know?

Personally, I thought the pixel shifting worked/works great. Anyone who doesn't think the HVX200 is real HD because of this isn't looking at the actual picture the camera produces, but numbers on paper. In my opinion anyway.

Agreed...Partially. Depends on your "canvas". The bigger the resolution, the better it looks in bigger screens- taking only resolution into consideration!

The big catch on the HVX is not the resolution, but everything else that is important to make a good picture: dinamic range, which is close to top of its class- before the ex1 introduction-, color space (4:2:2 ), top of its class, variable frame rates (immediately viewable vs competition) and reliable established workflow.

To me, including the EX1, there's no picture that looks as "filmic" as the cine D f6 scene file of the HVX out of the box, from any other camera in the price range- or sub 10k, for the matter (ok, not including the HPX500, which is going, with the rebate, for 7999 excluding lens).

... But the Scarlet really is a run for the HVX money, at least for indie film production. Lets see what the Scarlet numbers are for dinamic range and real world resolution.

[Barry_Green]

Does the 150 have waveform monitoring? Or only the 170. What a great feature. Histograms are nice, but waveform is something else. Super kudos to Panny for putting this on there, even if only the 170.
The 150 mockup has the WFM button, so I expect that yes indeed it has the waveform monitor.

[snowleopard]

The 150 mockup has the WFM button, so I expect that yes indeed it has the waveform monitor.

Very nice. Let's hope it stays true.

[vocare]

I also got excited and initially assumed 1280x720 CCDs, however, re-reading the press release, what is actually said is "...the HPX170 is equipped with new advanced 1/3-inch 16:9 3-CCDs..." "New" and "Advanced", doesn't necessarily mean 1280x720, as many of us had hoped.

Another press release (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=239664&modelNo=Content04102008124337622&surfModel=Content04102008124337622) says of the HVX200A "...now featuring improved progressive 3-CCD imagers..." Even this does not necessarily indicate native 720P CCDs. Barry, you may be on to something: the big four manufacturers may be allowing JVC to hang on to that calling card.

On a side note: If anyone missed it, the HVX200A is also "...Incorporating these new premium quality 3-CCD imagers and the 28mm zoom lens of the new HPX170..."


Is there any camera compareable to ex1 in price and quality.
Waiting for the switch to HD

[cinematical]

Doesn't Jan say here:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/nab2008/index.asp

that the CCD resolution is 1.1 million pixels? Of course, that's "effective" resolution.

[Andrew McCarrick]

If the HPX170 doesn't have a tape drive why can't there be more P2 slots? I'd even take a Tape Drive style P2 Loading mech. We're it pops out on the side and you slide in 3-4 cards, and then pop it back in. Freeing up the back for something else, or even keeping those two slots.

[FatDaddy]

It sounds like the HPX 170 is going to be the real deal (HVX or better). Will have to wait and see until we get a little more info or user experience. It is a slated for a fall release, so that means months away and probably timed with the 64 gig card release (speculation on my part).

I got excited about the 170 after talking to my old Pany rep. Said it would be worth the wait as opposed to the 200A.

Scarlet is vapor wear until 2009. So I have a few months to decide.

[Erik Olson]

I somehow misread the HVX200a specification. Now I see no indication that they've added 1080/24pN. Whatthe?!

e

[themagickite]

if it has 20 different frame rates then i think it's safe to assume that it'll be both pal and ntsc (perhaps only in 720 mode). even if you add the different framerates of the pal hvx to the ntsc version there are still only 16:

12,18,20,22,(23),24,(25),26,(27),30,32,36,(37),48, (50),60

i wonder what the other 4 will be? i'm guessing 16, 40 and 54 will be there as they are quite common on S8 or 16mm cams.

[ZephyrStar]

I kinda hope that this will drive the price of the 100b down a little more...I'd still like to have one as a starter cam. That'd just give me a little more $ to put into the actual production.

[Jockomo]

For those attending NAB:

Could someone please get some photos of the other angles of the camera to post up?

Do they actually have a working model of the 170? Or is it just a shell?

[chstick]

There doesn't seem to be any improvements to the LCD resolution on the 170 or 200A (guess they still want to sell monitors...), but Panasonic did add a focus assist.

The only working floor model of the 170 didn't have a working menu, however I did keep pressing the button like an impatient guy at an elevator. They also brought back the DVX-style joystick play/shuttle controller.

The Panasonic rep did seem to really want to sell me on a slot to attach a 'lock' to tether to your tripod (or something else). She also mentioned that the HPX-170 'should' be cheaper than the HVX-200A, as she put it, "because this one has no tape mechanism". There was no price point announced and all the reps, when asked for a release date, say "fall".

In a nutshell it looks like the 170 is a 200A without a tape drive. There are (as stated repeatedly here) improvements to the sensor and better low-light capability. But now a 6-pin firewire slot has been added. Also added a ND filter, focus assist, HD-SDI, 20 variable frame rates (opposed to the HVX's 11), a wider lens (28mm), a 72mm thread (opposed to the HVX's 82mm) and a waveform monitor. Might be something else I'm forgetting but my morning java is wearing off. I'll try to grab a few pics today to post tonight.

Chris

[jetaddiction@mac.com]

does it have 82mm thread lens. uses the same lens as the hvx200?

[Jockomo]

Finally some more pics with different angles:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-AG-HPX170-News-Photo-Gallery.htm

[chstick]

does it have 82mm thread lens. uses the same lens as the hvx200?

The HVX-200A has an 82mm lens/thread (same as the original 200).

The HPX-170 has a 72mm lens/thread (same as the DVX-100 series).

I am also told that (despite this difference) they are essentially the same lens.

[Barry_Green]

does it have 82mm thread lens. uses the same lens as the hvx200?
No. The HVX200A is the same as the HVX200, but the HPX170 uses a 72mm lens. It's smaller and lighter, with a wider focal length range (3.9mm-51mm, vs. the HVX's 4.2mm-55mm). Still a Leica Dicomar, everything looks basically very similar, probably the same basic design etc., but it is physically smaller.

[snowleopard]

Those Pix on Camcorder info appear to be two separate cameras. For example, one of them (similar to older mock-ups I've seen?) has a rigid viewfinder, while the other photos show it nearly straight up. The "older" also looks more like gray in some areas, though that could just be lighting.

[Bokes]

I wish Panasonic added a Frame rate dial on the camera body.
I think Sony did this with the EX3.

[ilauzirika]

I wish Panasonic added a Frame rate dial on the camera body.
I think Sony did this with the EX3.

not a frame rate dial, but for what I heard you can now assign some framerates using the user buttons.

[BBF]

No. The HVX200A is the same as the HVX200, but the HPX170 uses a 72mm lens. It's smaller and lighter, with a wider focal length range (3.9mm-51mm, vs. the HVX's 4.2mm-55mm). Still a Leica Dicomar, everything looks basically very similar, probably the same basic design etc., but it is physically smaller.

Since both the HPX170 and the HMC150 have 72mm filter threads, does this mean the bayonet mount for W/A lenses would be the same as the DVX, so I could use lenses I might already have?

[hungrych]

Yess just found out the 170 has a flip function!

[Cees Mutsaers]

Summary changes in HPX170 compared to the HVX200 :

improved light sensitivity (0.5 stop)
increased S/N
less smear
HD/SD- SDI
20 in stead of 12 frame rates
flip frame
6-pins FW
last clip delete button
PAL/NTSC switchable
3 types of focus assist, wave form + vectorscope (can be switched off on demand)
framerate change out of menu structure
joystick type of control of play functions like in the DVX (and not 90 degrees rotated)
lens 72 mm (instead of 82 mm of the HVX)
no DV tape deck (which makes the cam lighter and smaller)
extra ND filter
anti-theft provision

correct me if I am wrong or missed something


When you sum it up like this it is a huge change !!!

[Cees Mutsaers]

I wonder if they also improved the battery mounting system (the first HVX200s suffered from breaking "plastic" tabs in the battery bay). Maybe they made them now from metal ?????

[William_Robinette]

The 170 goes back to the vertical battery mounting system the DVX uses, not the horizontal of the HVX.

[Luis Caffesse]

The 170 goes back to the vertical battery mounting system the DVX uses, not the horizontal of the HVX.

You know, when I first saw it I thought the horizontal system was really odd - but now I've gotten used to it. I think that's one of the things I'll miss if I move over to a 170 when it's released. Seems much faster to pop the battery off horizontally, ergonomically it just feels better.

[William_Robinette]

You know, when I first saw it I thought the horizontal system was really odd - but now I've gotten used to it. I think that's one of the things I'll miss if I move over to a 170 when it's released. Seems much faster to pop the battery off horizontally, ergonomically it just feels better.

That's funny, because I have the direct opposite experience. At first I thought the horizontal batt on the HVX would be awesome, but after using it, it is sooo awkward. Every other battery system I have used has been vertical so it's what I'm used to I guess...

[timbook2]

nice move panasonic ! totally tapeless and more sensitive than the HVX200 at a lower price. I wonder how that AVCHD model will fare compared to this one.

[Jason Ramsey]

Don't know if this was mentioned or not, but Jan mentioned today that the HPX170 has an lcd flip function for 35 adapter users.

Does indeed have additional framerates (20 in all). The focus assist (one of the three focus assist functions) can now remain on instead of cutting off after a few seconds.

She mentioned that NTSC/PAL switchable is still up for debate, but it sounds like it may be an upgrade option at the very least... but nothing confirmed nor denied on that feature.

don't know if the 200a will have the lcd flip or not, and the focus assist that stays on rather than automatically cutting off... But, a lot of little features like this mentioned about the 170 that really look like they will help fill out the camera.

(EDIT: Just read a few posts up, so covered already :) )

Jan mentioned "around the same price as the HVX"

later,
Jason

[Matthew R. Rodwell]

Don't know if this was mentioned or not, but Jan mentioned today that the HPX170 has an lcd flip function for 35 adapter users.

Does indeed have additional framerates (20 in all). The focus assist (one of the three focus assist functions) can now remain on instead of cutting off after a few seconds.

She mentioned that NTSC/PAL switchable is still up for debate, but it sounds like it may be an upgrade option at the very least... but nothing confirmed nor denied on that feature.

don't know if the 200a will have the lcd flip or not, and the focus assist that stays on rather than automatically cutting off... But, a lot of little features like this mentioned about the 170 that really look like they will help fill out the camera.

later,
Jason

Any word on if this will be on the HMC150 as well?

[Jason Ramsey]

I'm not sure... Barry might know or someone else. Otherwise, I'll ask tomorrow. I would *think* so....

later,
Jason

[Jason Adams]

Here is a look at some of the new features of the HPX. Right from the show floor at NAB. These are just a few of my observations of the features that stood out to me.


Jan gives a group of us the features rundown:


http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/DSC_2718.JPG

The HPX170

http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/DSC_2692.JPG


Side view.

1.) The audio gain dials are guarded on top by a small piece of plastic to avoid accidental level changes

2.)The WFM button overlays A wave form monitor. If you press it twice it overlays a vectorscope.

3.) It is out of focus in this pic but there is also a toggle switch that changes the focus ring on the cam to an iris ring. The ring is still free spinning with no hard stops, but can now be used for Iris or Focus.

4.) The LCD button toggles the brightness of the LCD through three brightness levels.


http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/DSC_2702.JPG

Wider side view:

5.) The Menu interface is the toggle joystick just like the DVX 100B.


http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/DSC_2715.JPG

6.) Also It gains one more ND filter stage ( now has 1/4 1/16 and 1/64)

7.) The Focus assist is now the same as the HPX 300

8.) You will also notice they moved the Servo manual zoom toggle from the front of the cam to the side

http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/sidefront.JPG



Back View:

9.) They have moved the SD card to the top of the P2 Slots on the back

http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/DSC_2708.JPG

10.) SDI out

11.) 6 Pin Firewire

12.) Newly designed component connector

http://www.dreamoncreative.com/%7Efiletransfer/dvxuser/hpx170/endclose.JPG



I did not get a look at the Menu tree because it was disabled on this pre production model.


In summery:

The chip set is THE SAME AS THE new 200a.
It can now select 20 frame rates in HD from 12fps to 60fps
It is expected to be available for orders in June/July and will probably ship in September

Pricing has not been set, but it is said to be in the same price range as the HVX 200A.

[Barry_Green]

I wish Panasonic added a Frame rate dial on the camera body.
They basically did. :thumbsup:

Basically, it's not a dial, but it's the same functionality. You know how you change the shutter speed in the HVX200, by using the "+" and "-" buttons? Well, now you do the same thing with the frame rate. You can assign "frame +" and "frame -" to user buttons and then change the frame rate right from the body. It's not a round dial, but it's the same functionality.

[Barry_Green]

Summary changes in HPX170 compared to the HVX200 :

improved light sensitivity (0.5 stop)
increased S/N
less smear
HD/SD- SDI
20 in stead of 12 frame rates
flip frame
6-pins FW
last clip delete button
PAL/NTSC switchable
3 types of focus assist, wave form + vectorscope (can be switched off on demand)
framerate change out of menu structure
joystick type of control of play functions like in the DVX (and not 90 degrees rotated)
lens 72 mm (instead of 82 mm of the HVX)
no DV tape deck (which makes the cam lighter and smaller)
extra ND filter
anti-theft provision

correct me if I am wrong or missed something


When you sum it up like this it is a huge change !!!
That's pretty much a good summation. You missed the best little unexpected update: it can now play back pretty much all clips regardless of what format they were shot in!

HVX200 owners will know what I'm talking about here; you know how you might shoot some 1080 clips, and some 720 clips, and then some 480 clips, and then you go to playback and only the 480 clips will play? And the 1080 and 720 clips are in red and won't play? And then you have to go back to camera mode, back into the menus, back into recording setup, and change the recording format in order to play one of those other formats, right?

Well, no more... now you can play back all those clips, without changing modes! If you want to play back a "red" clip, just push down the "set" button for a second or so, and the camera will switch into the proper mode automatically and you can now play all those clips.

And the waveform is SWEET. Those of you who know what the waveform is like on the 8", 9", 17", and 26" monitors, well, this ain't like that! Those waveforms are kind of low-res and blocky. This cam's waveform is high res and just slick as can be. It looks like the waveform in the P2 Gear. And, it also has a vectorscope that looks like the P2 Gear's vectorscope.

The menus weren't working so we couldn't dig around and find out what else may be new. If there's one other thing I would hope to find in there, it'd be the P2 Gear's capability to subclip and export portions of clips, and its ability to display clips using the User Clip Name. That would be pretty sweet.

[Barry_Green]

Oh, regarding Focus Assist, there are basically four focus assist functions.

1) Peaking. (actually, I'm assuming here... I didn't try turning peaking on and off, but... it's gotta be there, right?)

2) Magnified focus. This is basically the same as on the HVX200, except it doesn't turn itself off! It doesn't "time out" anymore, it just stays on until you decide to turn it off. Nice.

3) Histogram. This is the same focus assist function as on the HPX500. It works very nicely, if a bit confusingly for someone who's not used to it. I always liked it on the 500, but I wish the 500 had both magnified focus assist and the histogram. It doesn't, but the HPX170 and HMC150 do -- you can have all the focus assists active simultaneously.

4) Horizontal bar. This is a really simple thing, and I'm not sure how great it is or not. Basically, you turn the focus ring until the bar gets as long as possible, and when it reaches that point, well, you're in focus. It seems like a simplistic version of the full histogram function.

So, while the LCD panel itself didn't seem to be improved any, the additional focus assists do certainly make it a lot easier to get razor-sharp focus.

[Barry_Green]

I wonder if they also improved the battery mounting system (the first HVX200s suffered from breaking "plastic" tabs in the battery bay). Maybe they made them now from metal ?????
Yes it's much improved. The battery now mounts vertically (like the DVX used to), which protects it against the increased leverage that the HVX200's horizontal mounting exposed it to.

[Barry_Green]

nice move panasonic ! totally tapeless and more sensitive than the HVX200 at a lower price. I wonder how that AVCHD model will fare compared to this one.
The 150 is basically the identical same hardware. Not all the same features (no HD-SDI, no variable frame rates) but most of the same features. Same imaging, same picture, same lens, same waveform and vectorscope, everything is basically the same. The major difference is the recording media and format (AVC-HD on SD cards, vs. DVCPRO-HD on P2 cards).

There may be other differences under the hood, but physically they look like they're the same.

[Barry_Green]

Any word on if this will be on the HMC150 as well?
Don't know. It wasn't on any external button, so maybe it's something that's set in the menus. These cameras don't have menus enabled yet, they're still prototypes. I'll try to remember to ask tomorrow.

[Luis Caffesse]

it can now play back pretty much all clips regardless of what format they were shot in!

AWESOME news!!

And by the way, that's one more thing that was on our 'user requested options' list.
It's good to see Panasonic was really listening.
Can't help but feel that DVXUser had a small hand in this camera.
:thumbsup:

[Luis Caffesse]

there is also a toggle switch that changes the focus ring on the cam to an iris ring. The ring is still free spinning with no hard stops, but can now be used for Iris or Focus.

Nice!
That's yet another one that was on our list here.
This is just getting better and better.
:thumbsup:

[Kholi]

I thought it had an HDMI out? Is that incorrect?

[Daygola814]

I thought I was excited before... but now? Damn, I can't wait!

[Daygola814]

Since the HVX is now including a P2 card, I wonder if this cam will have one in the box as well. That would be awesome!

[ilauzirika]

Since the HVX is now including a P2 card, I wonder if this cam will have one in the box as well. That would be awesome!

Well, in my opinion it should, just because if you don't have a p2 card you can't use this camera(except be outputing thorugh the various outputs). But you could use the HVX with the tape.

[Barry_Green]

I thought it had an HDMI out? Is that incorrect?
HMC150 has HDMI. HPX170 has HD-SDI.

[Barry_Green]

Since the HVX is now including a P2 card, I wonder if this cam will have one in the box as well. That would be awesome!
That would indeed be excellent. Don't know, as we're probably five months away from shipping and they didn't even announce a firm price yet. But I would be surprised if it didn't.

[Luis Caffesse]

Jan did mention in an interview that they're going to be bringing back the 8GB cards.
If that's the case I woudln't be surprised if one was included with the cam.

I can't see them throwing in a 16 or 32GB card in as standard though.
Then again - who knows.

[Daygola814]

That would indeed be excellent. Don't know, as we're probably five months away from shipping and they didn't even announce a firm price yet. But I would be surprised if it didn't.

Yeah, it would be a little odd if it didn't.

So Barry, will we see an HPX170 book? :thumbsup:

[Daygola814]

Jan did mention in an interview that they're going to be bringing back the 8GB cards.
If that's the case I woudln't be surprised if one was included with the cam.

I can't see them throwing in a 16 or 32GB card in as standard though.
Then again - who knows.

Tthe HVX200 now comes with a free 16GB card, right? I'd guess that they would do the same with this cam, but who knows. The release date is so far away, it's hard to tell at this point.

[Luis Caffesse]

Tthe HVX200 now comes with a free 16GB card, right?

Sure, now it does.
But not when it first shipped.
It's always been as part of a rebate or other promotion - but never standard.

[Barry_Green]

So Barry, will we see an HPX170 book? :thumbsup:
I'm thinking it's probably going to be very similar to the HVX200, so I might revise The HVX Book to include the new changes and make it one tome that covers both units...

[Cees Mutsaers]

That is really cool Barry. The more info comes available the more excited I get about the 170. Also the improvement of the battery you mention is very nice. :thumbsup:



That's pretty much a good summation. You missed the best little unexpected update: it can now play back pretty much all clips regardless of what format they were shot in!

[Daygola814]

Sure, now it does.
But not when it first shipped.
It's always been as part of a rebate or other promotion - but never standard.

Hmm.. good point. Damn hahaha.

Well, let's hope. :)

[Daygola814]

I'm thinking it's probably going to be very similar to the HVX200, so I might revise The HVX Book to include the new changes and make it one tome that covers both units...

Yeah, I mean, if you update the book to cover the HVX200a, the HPX170 is so close, that just even having the HVX200a covered would probably be enough. But that would be cool to make one book that covers both cameras.

Anyways, thanks for thinking ahead. Your books are invaluable.

As for the HPX170, I'm wondering, if you hook up an external LCD for monitoring (as many HVX users do), do all 4 of the focus assists as well as all the other camera info show up on this monitor as well?

That's actually a silly question since the HPX170 isn't out yet, but does this happen on the HVX200?

[Kholi]

Yeah, I mean, if you update the book to cover the HVX200a, the HPX170 is so close, that just even having the HVX200a covered would probably be enough. But that would be cool to make one book that covers both cameras.

Anyways, thanks for thinking ahead. Your books are invaluable.

As for the HPX170, I'm wondering, if you hook up an external LCD for monitoring (as many HVX users do), do all 4 of the focus assists as well as all the other camera info show up on this monitor as well?

That's actually a silly question since the HPX170 isn't out yet, but does this happen on the HVX200?

Very good question. Do the waveforms, etc output to an external? That would also be pretty sweet.

[arno]

The same 'bad' LCD is a huge en serious problem.
Hear and see Philip Bloom (http://www.freshdv.com/category/news) about the EX3 and their innovated LCD.
Panasonic, it's 2008...

Arno

[Jason Ramsey]

EX LCD from what I've heard is great, but I've never had much of a problem with the HVX LCD.... 3 different focus assists and actually staying on instead of cutting off, on the 170 is good enough for me. Need more... get an external.

Later,
Jason

[chstick]

I sat through the Panasonic HD camera seminar (which dealt mostly with the HPX-3000). But they mentioned that, although they had discontinued the 8G card, they were now going to bring it back. The reason for this (well, one example...) was, in the case of having to send out just a little footage, it would be more advantageous to send it on an 8G card opposed to a 32G (or 64G, etc...).

It would certainly be a nice gesture to include an 8G card with the HPX-170 & the HMC-150 when they ship.

[Barry_Green]

Very good question. Do the waveforms, etc output to an external? That would also be pretty sweet.
Didn't test for this, but I'll try to remember to.

[Bucknfl]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the 1080p, is it only through the HD-SDI or also to P2?

Would someone like to step up and answer the question about how 1080p is recorded with this camera?

[Luis Caffesse]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the 1080p, is it only through the HD-SDI or also to P2?

Would someone like to step up and answer the question about how 1080p is recorded with this camera?

I imagine it's just like the HVX, recording to P2 cards

[Leo Versola]

Man, the 170 sure looks to be a winner... I sure hope the released version is rock solid from the get-go and not plagued with any niggling problems like the EX1 has been; the dough in my pocket for a new cam has been burning furiously since last August.

As fantastic as the Scarlet sounds, vapor takes time to condense and it's looking like 10 to 18 months before the possibility of getting one to actually shoot with exists. Bummer, 'cause I was hoping RED would really surprise, no I take that back, SHOCK everyone with a summer or fall release date.

[snowleopard]

I never had any problems the few times I used the EX1. Having said that I never heard of much of anyone having problems with the HVX, or DVX for that matter, so it would stand to reason that these new cams, especially considering that they're at least somewhat rooted in the HVX (and DVX I suppose) that they should be pretty solid from version 1.

[Jason Ramsey]

Over a pound lighter than the HVX.

Later,
Jason

[Bucknfl]

I imagine it's just like the HVX, recording to P2 cards

The HVX only does 1080i not 1080p.

The article mentions 1080p at the beginning
Fully solid-state, the two-slot HPX170 is a 1080p capable camcorder that offers the compelling advantages of P2 technology including: no moving parts unlike tape, hard disk drive, or disc-based systems; instant random access to recorded HD or SD content;

But later it only mentions 1080i not 1080p
The multi-format camera records in 20 HD and SD formats; in a variety of 1080i and 720p formats in DVCPRO HD, in 480i in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO, and in 480i in DV. It’s switchable between 16:9/4:3 aspect ratios. The HPX170 offers a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects.

[Matthew R. Rodwell]

The HVX only does 1080i not 1080p.

The article mentions 1080p at the beginning
Fully solid-state, the two-slot HPX170 is a 1080p capable camcorder that offers the compelling advantages of P2 technology including: no moving parts unlike tape, hard disk drive, or disc-based systems; instant random access to recorded HD or SD content;

But later it only mentions 1080i not 1080p
The multi-format camera records in 20 HD and SD formats; in a variety of 1080i and 720p formats in DVCPRO HD, in 480i in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO, and in 480i in DV. It’s switchable between 16:9/4:3 aspect ratios. The HPX170 offers a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects.

Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?!?

[Kholi]

Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?!?

Actually, though, that brings up a thought: Why no 1080p/24pN yet? Is that something that DVCproHD can't handle or what?

[Jeff Anderson]

Buck the camera records 1080 24p and 30p over a 1080 60i signal, hence recording formats like 1080i 24p. As matthew has mentioned its been discussed a few times before if you want more info on it and the pulldown it uses. The DVCProHD codec does not support 1080p only 1080i.

[mikkowilson]

Actually, though, that brings up a thought: Why no 1080p/24pN yet? Is that something that DVCproHD can't handle or what?
Nope.

DVCPRO-HD 1080 can only record a interlaced stream. But the HVX200 shoots, and has always shot - from day one - true honest to god 1080p .. how it records it is been the point of confusion.

- Mikko

[Kholi]

Nope.

DVCPRO-HD 1080 can only record a interlaced stream. But the HVX200 shoots, and has always shot - from day one - true honest to god 1080p .. how it records it is been the point of confusion.

- Mikko

Oh okay that was the HPX3000 that could do 1080p/24pN yeah?

Just wonderin' if there was ever going to be a Native mode for that. Ah well!

[mikkowilson]

Yeah, AVC-Intra supports 1080p recording, so the higher models that have AVC-Intra then also support 1080p recording, as well as shooting.

- Mikko

[Jason Ramsey]

Yup. DVCPRO is a ten year old codec, so I doubt they have plans to re-work it to allow for 1080/24pn.

That's where AVC Intra comes in, as said. The 170 doesn't seem like a "next generation" cam, but a pretty major update with some nice cool new features, etc, and fixes to annoyances.

I'd think that maybe the next generation handheld factor from Panny a couple few years down the line or something, might have AVC Intra... but, I don't think they are able to get that into a form factor this small yet. Complete speculation on my part.

Later,
Jason

[Daygola814]

but, I don't think they are able to get that into a form factor this small yet. Complete speculation on my part.

Later,
Jason

I'm a little confused by that. I don't know myself, but aren't the imagers completely separate from the hardware used to encode the image? So do you mean that the hardware is too large to fit into the form factor of a handheld cam? Or did I just completely misunderstand what you meant?

Thanks!

[Jason Ramsey]

Yes. I believe I heard Jan say something to that effect. It's the hardware that's too big today. They aren't quite there yet. That's why I speculate that the true next generation of the handheld line from Panny may very well include AVC Intra instead of DVCPRO HD.

I could be completely wrong though. Plus, there is cost to consider. AVC Intra being pretty new will cost more, and they have R&D dollars and such to recoupe. DVCPRO HD is pretty old, so there isn't much in the way of added cost that has to be passed along to the consumer.

Later,
Jason

[Daygola814]

Wow... that's cool. Well, DVCPRO HD works for me. It's easy to edit and the quality is great so screw it. I'm sure the HPX will produce beautiful pictures. Can't wait to get my hands on one!

[Luis Caffesse]

Yes. I believe I heard Jan say something to that effect. It's the hardware that's too big today. They aren't quite there yet. That's why I speculate that the true next generation of the handheld line from Panny may very well include AVC Intra instead of DVCPRO HD.

I could be completely wrong though. Plus, there is cost to consider. AVC Intra being pretty new will cost more, and they have R&D dollars and such to recoupe. DVCPRO HD is pretty old, so there isn't much in the way of added cost that has to be passed along to the consumer.

Later,
Jason

I don't see why not.
It'll be the same thing we saw happen with DVCProHD.
Start in the high end - then move it to the low end.
I can see them doing that with AVC-Intra, sure.
But it'll probably be a while.

[jpsheets]

Well heck, I'm not using tape anymore, and the HPX sounds like a real winner. I'm just going to have to trade in my HVX for the new HPX! Any reason (other than $$) why you wouldn't skip the 200A and go directly for the HPX?

cheers,

JP

[Jason Ramsey]

Only if you needed tape still... I heard Barry mention to someone today, that the only other possible reason may be if the 200a has a little better lowlight performance due to the larger glass than the 170, but that is still unknown until someone can put both of them next to each other and test for it.

But, pretty much... if you still need the tape deck, then you might want the 200a. Otherwise, it's the 170 all the way.

Later,
JUason

[vocare]

Only if you needed tape still... I heard Barry mention to someone today, that the only other possible reason may be if the 200a has a little better lowlight performance due to the larger glass than the 170, but that is still unknown until someone can put both of them next to each other and test for it.

But, pretty much... if you still need the tape deck, then you might want the 200a. Otherwise, it's the 170 all the way.

Later,
JUason

anyone doing the test for both camera

[HVXmania]

Can someone who is going to NAB check whether the 20 frame rates advertised for the new HVX170 include standard PAL rates (ie 25p and 50i)? One of the big problems for film makers in PAL regions such as EU and Australasia interested in the HVX200 has been how much more expensive the PAL version of the camera is (ie 50% more!). Thanks heaps.

[Barry_Green]

Can someone who is going to NAB check whether the 20 frame rates advertised for the new HVX170 include standard PAL rates (ie 25p and 50i)? One of the big problems for film makers in PAL regions such as EU and Australasia interested in the HVX200 has been how much more expensive the PAL version of the camera is (ie 50% more!). Thanks heaps.
The menus were not enabled so we don't know. The switchable 50/60hz thing is a raging debate right now.

Okay, I found out a few more things that are different from the HVX200 to the 170. First, the HPX170 comes with a five year warranty. Second, not only is the firewire port a six-pin, but it's a LOCKING six pin! If you use a locking firewire cable, that cable isn't coming out.

Also, I don't know if it was mentioned before and I'm much too tired to read through the whole thread, but the 170 offers a time/date stamp burn-in for legal videography.

I know there are other things that I can't think of right now, somewhere I've got a list of about 24 different changes from the 200 (that we know of; there may be other surprises lurking under the hood.)

[FatDaddy]

It really is going to be a sweet camera. Held the 150 at the Final Cut Super Meet last night and it was like holding a DVX again. I bet it will be priced below the current HVX when released (not by much, but below).

[Cees Mutsaers]

Barry, did you ask if you could get pre-production models of the 200A and 170 later on this year which are about 95% finished so you can do some testing for us ?

[Joseph Stunzi]

The HVX200a is already out. You can get it at Spec Comm and a few other American dealers!

[Cees Mutsaers]

Any changes/improvements in the audio area of the 170 compared to the 200 ??

[Barry_Green]

Barry, did you ask if you could get pre-production models of the 200A and 170 later on this year which are about 95% finished so you can do some testing for us ?
I'm always clamoring to get products as early as possible. The 200A is already available, you can buy one today. For the 170, they said "September."

[joe 1008]

Barry, you supposed that the angle of view on the HVX200a in comparision to the HVX200 has changed due to bigger sensors. Can you confirm that? And does the claimed resolution of 1,1 million pixels mean it´s something close to a 720 x 1280 sensor (which would account for 0,92 million pixels)?

[Cees Mutsaers]

I am very curious about the answer !!



Barry, you supposed that the angle of view on the HVX200a in comparision to the HVX200 has changed due to bigger sensors. Can you confirm that? And does the claimed resolution of 1,1 million pixels mean it´s something close to a 720 x 1280 sensor (which would account for 0,92 million pixels)?

[kecorcoran]

Barry, you supposed that the angle of view on the HVX200a in comparision to the HVX200 has changed due to bigger sensors. Can you confirm that? And does the claimed resolution of 1,1 million pixels mean it´s something close to a 720 x 1280 sensor (which would account for 0,92 million pixels)?

I think that claim (which I saw as I quote from Jan in some other thread somewhere) was worded "1.1 million EFFECTIVE pixels"

I interpret the word "effective" here to mean that 1.1 million pixels is not the actual resolution of the CCDs, but instead is the number of valid pixels that can be obtained from them by factoring in the spatial offset (pixel shifting) between the three CCDs.

So I take this to mean no increase in res over the current HVX CCD.

[David Saraceno]

I'm always clamoring to get products as early as possible. The 200A is already available, you can buy one today. For the 170, they said "September."

Does anybody know the skinny on availability initially? Remember how difficult it was to get the first HVX200s.

Is it anybody's feeling that Panasonic will ship enough to meet demand?

[Luis Caffesse]

Does anybody know the skinny on availability initially? Remember how difficult it was to get the first HVX200s.

True, but the HVX was a whole new beast from them.
Granted the body style was very similiar to the DVX - but the camera was a completely different piece of equipment
shooting an unprecedented amount of formats and framerates.

With the 170 I can't help but think that most of the 'heavy lifting' is already done.
Hopefully production and shipping will go much smoother this time around.

[Daygola814]

True, but the HVX was a whole new beast from them.
Granted the body style was very similiar to the DVX - but the camera was a completely different piece of equipment
shooting an unprecedented amount of formats and framerates.

With the 170 I can't help but think that most of the 'heavy lifting' is already done.
Hopefully production and shipping will go much smoother this time around.

I hope so... This camera looks great! I hope there are no problems with the first few batches though.

[Kholi]

I really hope we see the 170 early Fall. That would be more than perfect. And I hope we get a price tag here soon so we can estimate the street price.

[joe 1008]

I think that claim (which I saw as I quote from Jan in some other thread somewhere) was worded "1.1 million EFFECTIVE pixels"

I interpret the word "effective" here to mean that 1.1 million pixels is not the actual resolution of the CCDs, but instead is the number of valid pixels that can be obtained from them by factoring in the spatial offset (pixel shifting) between the three CCDs.

So I take this to mean no increase in res over the current HVX CCD.

Did some math about it: DVXPRO HD is 1080x1280, right? So for example 900 x 1200 would be 1.080.000. Quite close to fill the codec. So resolution could increase. Maybe to 800 lines???

[Barry_Green]

So I take this to mean no increase in res over the current HVX CCD.
I didn't see any discernible resolution difference. What I did see was markedly less noise and better color reproduction.

[Barry_Green]

True, but the HVX was a whole new beast from them.
Granted the body style was very similiar to the DVX - but the camera was a completely different piece of equipment
shooting an unprecedented amount of formats and framerates.

With the 170 I can't help but think that most of the 'heavy lifting' is already done.
Hopefully production and shipping will go much smoother this time around.
Here's the other difference: when the 200 was announced at NAB, it was a block of wood. When the 170 was shown, it was shown in an already-working model. I think we'll see it come out much more quickly than the 200 did; I got some of the reps to say "September" as the delivery target. Now, what David's really asking (I think) is "will it be an initial pathetic little trickle of units, or are they going to actually satisfy demand?" No way to know.

[Jim Brennan]

I didn't see any discernible resolution difference. What I did see was markedly less noise and better color reproduction.

Just to clarify, you are comparing it the 200, NOT the 200A, correct? I know the word 'current' was in the post you reponded to, but I just want to make sure I understand you, since I am assuming that the CCDs in the 170 and the 200A will be the same.

[Daygola814]

I didn't see any discernible resolution difference. What I did see was markedly less noise and better color reproduction.

Just out of curiosity, what was the agreed upon max resolution that the HVX was able to get? Since the CCDs are similar, I'm going to assume that we'll get the same amount of resolution out of the HPX.

So what was the agreed upon resolution from the HVX?

[David Saraceno]

Now, what David's really asking (I think) is "will it be an initial pathetic little trickle of units, or are they going to actually satisfy demand?" No way to know.

That be right, Barry.

It was a long time before any shipments came in volume.

Jan specifically mentioned September in a post over at the HVX200 threads earlier today.

I think our current HVX200 will be our B roll to the 170. It looks to meet our needs.

As I wrote to Jan there:

"Good job on the new features.

6 pin locking FW port -- two thumbs up
HD-SDI Out - two thumbs up
No tape mechanism - two thumbs up
Improved S/N - two thumbs up
Better sensors for low light - two thumbs up
Lighter weight - two thumbs up
Delete last clip - two thumbs up
More frame rates - two thumbs up

LCD - oh well."

How do I get on the beta testing short list?

[Barry_Green]

Just to clarify, you are comparing it the 200, NOT the 200A, correct? I know the word 'current' was in the post you reponded to, but I just want to make sure I understand you, since I am assuming that the CCDs in the 170 and the 200A will be the same.
I compared 200 to 200A. I also asked and was confirmed that the 150/170/200A chipsets are all the same.

[Barry_Green]

Just out of curiosity, what was the agreed upon max resolution that the HVX was able to get? Since the CCDs are similar, I'm going to assume that we'll get the same amount of resolution out of the HPX.

So what was the agreed upon resolution from the HVX?

Well, to be nitpicky, there's not any such thing as "the HPX". We need to get in the habit of referring to these things by their model number, because there are at least six different "HPX" cameras. So let's call it the "170" for shorthand.

Agreed-upon resolution? Panasonic's white paper puts a chip count at 1400 x 810 (or so) effective resolution. My own chart testing shows aliasing sets in at about 540 lines; discernable res runs to about 730 lines but there's aliasing involved.

[ripupthehwy]

No. The HVX200A is the same as the HVX200, but the HPX170 uses a 72mm lens. It's smaller and lighter, with a wider focal length range (3.9mm-51mm, vs. the HVX's 4.2mm-55mm). Still a Leica Dicomar, everything looks basically very similar, probably the same basic design etc., but it is physically smaller.

I GUESS most people will like the smaller design of the HPX 170 mainly because it is lighter weight and easier to handhold, but I absolutely love the design/look of my HVX. Its fatter & bigger and the coolest looking camera in my opinion, in its class. For some clients it is about image, and Im not referring to just the one the camera creates. You show up with a bigger camera they feel like they are getting more of thier money's worth verses having something small/dinky. The HPX just looks too much like the DVX so kinda makes me feel like its a step backwards. I would probably buy the HVX200a over the HPX 170 because it would go well with the 200 I already have. Yeah I know its about the image it produces and what you do with it that counts the most but smaller lens diameter and camera body just looks wimpy. I was just cuious if anybody else feels the same way or do most people feel happy to shed the fatboy design of the HVX???

[Barry_Green]

Shedding fat is good. :thumbsup:

[for_mlove]

All about losing the weight. A 170 will match up much better with may Steadicam Merlin/Vest combo. The 200 is really pushing the Merlin and there's no chance of adding a wireless mic, etc. I think you could pull that off with the 170. Have to say that from what I've seen the 200 looks a lot cooler than the 170. The 170 looks.... I dunno, like a cheap design. It is of course in beta and I'm only looking at photos posted here. We'll see.

[Cees Mutsaers]

I saw that video of the perss conference and I thought the 170 looked really cool. I agree some other photo's I saw of the 170 didn't look that good ( a bit grey housing, no oculair correction, maybe it was a very early version). I think the final 170 will look very good. Lets' pray they make it PAL/NTSC switchable after all and as a bonus put in a nice lcd to finish it off :-))))

[FatDaddy]

Smaller is way gooder for me.

Scarlet is a little stuffed pig, filled with 3k goodness, but it aint fittin' in a pocket.

Picked up the 150 and feeled right nice...

[mjeppsen]

A lot of this has been covered in detail in the previous pages, but wanted to mention that we have an interview with Panasonic’s Jan Crittenden Livingston up on the 170 and 200A. You can snag a copy here: http://www.freshdv.com/2008/04/nab-2008-panasonic.html

[Daygola814]

What about the comparison between the latitude from the HVX200a/HPX170 and the EX-1. Obviously we won't know anything about the HPX170, but since it's using the same imaging system as the HVX200a, I guess it's safe to assume that it would be similar if not the same as the HVX200a.

So, what's the comparison like with the latitude?

[Kholi]

Anyone heard a solid price point or street price for the HPX170 yet?

[marlontorres]

Anyone heard a solid price point or street price for the HPX170 yet?

$5995

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/559333-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX170_DVCPRO_HD_P2_CAMCORDER.html

[Adam J McKay]

Dang $5995 is a little steep. Interested to see what happens with scarlett.

[Postmaster]

II was just cuious if anybody else feels the same way or do most people feel happy to shed the fatboy design of the HVX???[/B]

I wish it would be twice as big and fat. I sure buy a 170 but the 90s cheap consumer look realy bugs me.
(yeah I know, IT IS a consumer camera)

I have to put a big ass mattebox, rails, gloveand what not on it to look half like a professional tool.

If I would work as a designer for Pany, I would come up with a body that looks like the big guys - and I bet lot´s a guys would buy it just for that look.

JVC had a great design (but the resolution sucks)

http://www.hdcompare.com/Cameras/JVC_GY-HD100U_lg.jpg


I like big cameras that have big switches, dials and buttons - makes it soo much easyer. I don´t care abought wight cause I have so much gear to hulk around , a view pounds more or less...


Frank

[OUinLA]

Why do they make it so small? That will probably keep me from ever purchasing one. Personally, I think the HVX is too small. I know some companies like to see a bigger camera that looks more professional. When shooting SD, i've lost work because the Canon cameras have that look and the Panasonic doesn't.

[bonkerz]

Wow... I thought the word was that it would be cheaper than the HVX 200 or about the same price...

[Barry_Green]

Wow... I thought the word was that it would be cheaper than the HVX 200 or about the same price...
It will be. Some stores are listing it at its supposed MSRP (which is the same as the HVX's MSRP). But actual street pricing hasn't been announced yet.

[snowleopard]

If I would work as a designer for Pany, I would come up with a body that looks like the big guys - and I bet lot´s a guys would buy it just for that look.

Isn't that kind of what the HPX500 is? For under $10k for the body, or about $15 for the package, you get a full camera, 2/3" chips, shoots all HD, P2 cards, looks pro, is pro, etc. A steal of a price if we just glance back a few years.

As to Scarlet, that's still a big "if". They may not have it finished for another year, and at that there's no guarantee that you'll be able to order one and have it show up in a week. With the Panny's, you can order now, because they're ready now. My gut tells me at NAB 2000 Panasonic (and Sony, Canon, JVC) will at least announce something fairly comparable to Scarlet. We'll see...

[bonkerz]

It will be. Some stores are listing it at its supposed MSRP (which is the same as the HVX's MSRP). But actual street pricing hasn't been announced yet.

Oh good....I'm still going to get one then....thanks Barry

[strangways]

Why do they make it so small? That will probably keep me from ever purchasing one. Personally, I think the HVX is too small. I know some companies like to see a bigger camera that looks more professional. When shooting SD, i've lost work because the Canon cameras have that look and the Panasonic doesn't.

Does that really happen? I hear talk of things like that, but I personally have never had a client look at my camera before a shoot, they see the work I do with it, and that's enough to get the job.

I always thought it was just people were worried that they would be be looked down upon when they actually showed up for a gig. That was the reason a wedding shooter I know bought an AG-DVC20 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=98187&catGroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-DVC20), simply because it was bigger than a DVX100.

It reminds me of someone telling me my DVX100 was "not broadcast quality" while I was in the middle of shooting one of 39 episodes of a television show that was broadcast nationally on one of Canada's big 3 networks. So there are definitely perception issues out there.

[snowleopard]

It reminds me of someone telling me my DVX100 was "not broadcast quality" .

That one always cracks me up. Was the Rodney King video "broadcast quality"? It was broadcast across the entire planet.

[Adam J McKay]

Personally if I had a choice between say and hv20 and an xh-a1 to show up on set with, based only on the camera size etc, I would rather show up with an xh-a1. I also think if you show up with a point and shoot camera to a semi pro photoshoot, despite the fact you may take amazing pictures with it, people are going to feel ripped off or that you arn't a pro.

That said, I have never experienced this will my dvx, nor do I think you would experience that with the hpx170.

my 2 cents

[snowleopard]

Another way to look at it, perhaps, is that by showing up with a tripod, plus audio gear and lights (or at least reflectors and some grip items), and some crew, even if just PA's. Another way is how you look and present yourself, of course.