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Barry_Green
04-13-2008, 02:02 PM
Hey folks, I'm typing here from the Panasonic press conference. I'll update you as anything new gets announced...

1:04 - still waiting. Place is packed.

1:05 - we just got told to turn off all our electronic devices. I ain't gonna.

1:06 - opening video. Direct reference to filmmakers, which is cool. Lots of home stuff, environmental initiatives, IPTV, interactive whiteboards, blah blah blah. Where's the new HVX? heh. :)

1:08 - Jim Wickizer, Nat'l Manager of Marketing Services is on.
Talking about leadership in solid-state production and broadcasting. He's promising a host of new product introductions.

1:09 - He's introducing John Baisley, president of Panasonic Broadcast. Claims that this is a time of clear industry leadership, including DVCPRO-HD, the VariCam, and now P2HD. Panasonic Broadcast had solid revenue increases for the sixth consecutive year.

Matsushita is changing its name to Panasonic Corporation.

By 2011, Panasonic pledges to reduce CO2 emissions to the level they were at in 2001.

Goal is to complete all P2HD repairs within 24 hours.

Says the 17" LCD has become the "de facto standard" in production monitors.

1:16 - switchers, studio cameras, etc. Where's the new HVX? Still waiting... (impatiently!)

1:17 - Gretzky says "skate where the puck will be, not where it is." He says that describes their idea for introducing P2. More than 80,000 P2 units in use worldwide, including 840+ television networks and stations.

In addition to adoption of P2 by all Fox stations and the Fox Business Channel, Fox News is converting everything to P2HD. The Gray Television Group (21 stations) converting to P2HD by year's end. ABC's flagship station KABC in Los Angeles has bought 28 P2HD cameras and 37 P2 Mobiles. The Meredith group has adopted P2HD for all 12 of its stations, over 250 P2HD camcorders. Reuters has adopted P2HD for its global network of news bureaus, with over 100 HPX2000 cameras. P2HD will be the official recording format of the Beijing Olympics, over 100 camcorders and 250+ P2 recorders. First-ever all-HD coverage of the Olympics.

1:20 - introducing 4th generation of P2 camcorders. Main advancement last year was the introduction of AVC-Intra, "the industry's finest recording format." The HPX3000 has just been certified by Discovery HD at its highest rating, Gold. National Geographic Films will be showing some stuff from the 3000 here later.

1:22 - P2 Capacity will double every year. Today they're introducing the 64GB card. P2 capacity has quadrupled within the last year. Says "No other tape or optical format can come close to the recording times of P2."

1:23 - AVCCAM. Says it's a new range of products. What the heck is AVCCAM?

1:24 - Joe Facchini, Director of Product Marketing. VariCam was first introduced 10 years ago. Lots of P2 cameras have been introduced since, so...

1:25 - TWO new VariCams. AJ-HPX2700 and AJ-HPX3700. Everything the VariCam was, plus 10-bit AVC-Intra 4:2:2 recording, P2HD recording, HD-SDI output of 23.98 and 23.98PsF, Film Rec, 1-frame intervals for variable frame rates, Chromatic Aberration Compensation, Dynamic Range Stretch, Full color matrix control and color correction. 3700 = 2/3" 2.2mpix CCDs, 4:4:4 RGB Dual-Link 1080 output (and can record 4:2:2 simultanouesly). HD-only, no SD. AVC-Intra 100, AVC-Intra 50, and DVCPRO-HD in 1080 only, no 720, 1fps increments up to 30P, plus 1080/60i.

VariCam 2700 gets 1mpix 2/3" CCDs. 720 & 1080, no SD, two HD-SDI outputs, 1-frame increments up to 60fps in 720p.

With five 64GB cards, the 3700 records for 5 hours, 6.5 hours in 1080/24pN, 13+ hours in AVCI-50 @ 1080/24pN.

Available this fall.

1:29 - AJ-HPM110 P2 Mobile. Turns your older VariCam into a full P2 system including 10-bit 4:2:2 AVC-Intra at full raster.

1:29 - New companies supporting AVC-Intra: Apple FCP 6.0.2, Rhozet, Harris, and Thomson. Harris has AVC-Intra native editing in new Velocity and Nexio. Thomson will show AVC-Intra editing in Aurora NLE's.

1:30 Patrick McLean, Director of Product Marketing for Avid. "Avid and Panasonic go back a long way, it's a close collaboration, we meet together often." Very proud of the workflows they have today for P2/DVCPRO-HD integration. Native MXF editing directly off the P2 cards, brings the metadata directly into the bins off the P2 cards. Two new important developments:
1) Next release of Symphony, MC, and NewsCutter will have native import and native editing of AVC-Intra50 and AVC-Intra100.
2) Tomorrow, will be introducing a whole new line of editing products. "These are gonna substantially enhance the type of performance that you can realize from Panasonic products. Remarkable performance increases. No rendering, direct output."
1:33 "This is just another step on the road. We look forward to a long relationship with Panasonic and continuing to improve, etc..."

1:34 Joe Facchini - HVX200 has been used on a gamut of professional productions. Most satisfying production may be the Wounded Marine Career Foundation. (www.woundedmarinecareers.org (http://www.woundedmarinecareers.org)). Marines train on HVX200s. Introducing the program's founders, Kevin and Judith. Panasonic is bringing the program to the press's attention because the press has the power to bring this program's existence to the world. Cool of Panasonic.

1:36 - the AG-HPX170! Looks like a new HVX. Weighs only 4.2 pounds -- MUCH lighter! Wider-angle lens, 3.9mm to 51mm. 1080P-capable camcorder, new advanced 1/3" 16:9 CCDs, high-performance DSP, 14-bit processing. 20 HD & SD formats, 16:9 and 4:3, time-date stamp function for legal deposition. 20 variable frame rates. Two P2 slots. Available in the fall, covered by 5-year warranty. HD-SDI output.

1:38 - P2 Gear HPG10. Sounds unchanged, see my prior article/review.

1:38 - new PCD35 ExpressCard drive. Looks like the PCD20 five-slot reader, but instead of USB or firewire it uses ExpressCard. Promises "faster, more convenient file transfer workflow with the latest generation of expresscard computers." Available this winter at the same price as the PCD20.

1:39 - Mike Bergeron, P2 Partner guy. Apple, Avid, Adobe, Harris, Qantel, and Thomson Grass Valley all support P2HD already. 27 partner companies for P2 and DVCPRO-HD support up to this NAB. Other companies now joining. Fuji recently announced P2 cards. Hitachi is adopting P2 for its SK-1000 high-definition cameras! A transmission server for P2 file transfer is coming as well. So that makes 29 partners. Oooh, 30 partners: AutoDesk!

1:41 Stig Gruman, from AutoDesk. $2 billion software company, with 9 million users. 2 million students per year learn these programs. Flint, Flame, Inferno, Smoke, Maya, 3DS Max. CNN, Fox, Sony Pictures, ILM, Weta all use AutoDesk stuff. "Great relationship with Panasonic." The industry's becoming tapeless, demand for P2 media support is "really high." We've been interested since the introduction, but after the HPX3000 was introduced, our customers really started asking. We've partnered with Panasonic. New versions of Smoke, Inferno, Flame, and Flint 2009 releases all fully support P2 media! No transcoding, no media duplication. Eliminates first offloading to tape. Realtime playback from P2 media in all modes. We've delivered on what our customers are asking for.

1:45 - Joe Facchini: BT-LH1760 widescreen monitor. 120Hz double-speed drive, advanced I{S+ panel. "Reduces image blur to a level never before seen in this class." Vectorscope, waveform monitor, pixel-to-pixel matching. Ships this month, at $4500.

1:47 - HD system cameras. AW-HE100 pan/tilt camera head all-in-one. Wireless remote control handles up to 4 cameras.

1:48 - HKC1800N 2.2mpix multi-purpose camera. Box camera. News studio, weather/traffic forecasting, unique sports angles. Ships this month @ $28,000.

1:49 - AV-HS400 HD/SD switcher. "Best value ever in a switcher." 10-bit, HD & SD, DVE, chroma key, 4 SDI inputs/outputs, 8 HD, SD, and DV I/O's, can convert all inputs to high def, can view 10 HD signals on one single screen, no other switcher in this price range can do. Comparable products are around $30,000+; this is $10,990.

1:50 - VP of Marketing Bob Harris. "How do we address the needs of thousands of users (schools, churches, government, law enforcement, event videographers) who can't necessarily afford to migrate to P2 or other HD systems?" Panasonic's solution is file-based, solid-state recording of AVC-HD. "Same compression used in blu-ray players." New, advanced industry standard format. Basis for the new professional AVCCAM product line. Uses readily-available and affordable SD and SDHC cards just like digital still cameras use it to record pictures. Content can be transferred to a PC for playback, editing, or storage; or it can be inserted into the SD card slot of a blu-ray player, a compatible plasma display, or any compatible AVC-HD products. Eliminates the need for a special format deck and the time required for ingesting, fast forwarding, rewinding like older HDV products. Allows recording much longer than any tape, and upgrading that recording time as SD cards grow in capacity and decline in costs. Panasonic is shipping 32GB SD card in June. Eliminates the problem of relying on proprietary tape or decks that may be obsolete in the next few years.

AVCCAM offers significant improvements in quality at half the bitrate of HDV. Amazing full 1080 quality on the same reusable SD cards as your digital still camera. Brought the quality up a notch with a new exclusive 21 megabit mode 1920x1080 at amazing quality.

FCP, Pinnacle Studio, GV Edius editing platforms.

1:55 - AVCCAM for institutional and budget-conscious videographers. AG-HSC1 was first in the line. This month the HMC70 ships. 3-CCD, lightweight, shoulder-mount design, widescreen 1080i HD recording, 12x Leica Dicomar zoom lens, a range of professional interface connections like BNC component outputs and XLR inputs. HD requires highly accurate focus and stable shooting; the HMC70 offers image stabilization and a rapid autofocus. Captures still images even while recording moving video. Time/date stamp, pre-record, USB, HDMI, and component connections, 3.5" LCD. Delivering this month at $2495 MSRP.

1:57 - HMC150! New, full 1/3" 3-CCD handheld camcorder. Looks like it's very similar to the DVX form factor. Versatile, solid-state, affordable HD camcorder that will exceed your expectations. Stunning HD in four recording modes: 21, 17, 13, and 6 mbps. Full horizontal resolution images at 21, 17, and 13 mbps (1920x1080) and 6mbps = 1440x1080 for extended HD recording times. Supports a range of frame rates in both 1080 and 720 (24p, 30p, 60p/60i). Incorporates three 1/3" "production quality" CCD imagers, 19-bit processing, 14-bit DSP, 13x Leica Dicomar 3.9mm zoom lens, manual/auto focus and aperture operation, a range of selectable gamma functions for use in cine-style productions. Using a single 32GB card you can record 2.5 hours of 1920x1080 21mbps, or 12 hours of 6mbps video. Content can be played back directly on a growing number of affordable consumer players. Priced "under $4500" available this fall.

AVCCAM is the next generation in affordable HD camcorders; makes HD as easy to use as your digital still camera.

2:01 - Chris Miller, Head of Production and Post-Production for National Geographic Films. This is the company that brought us the academy-award-winning March of the Penguins. Shot their newest film on the HPX3000, in Botswana. They "love" this camera. This film will be released theatrically in both film and digital projection. "I have to say, it was amazing how much flexibility we had in grading, the best I've ever used by far in HD." Nat Geo Society produces these films for commercial entertainment but also to raise awareness for the conservation of these animals. The lions we're about to see have dwindled from 50,000 down to 5,000 today.

Clip is playing. "Dereck & Beverly Joubert" are the filmmakers. HOLY CANNOLI this looks frickin' amazing! Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. National Geographic on steroids. Beautiful. Awesome. Now I know what I wanna do when I grow up - I want to shoot for National Geographic Films. Breathtaking.

Sheesh. That does it. Kevin Railsback, pack your bags, I'm grabbing an HPX3000 and we're goin' to Africa. Geez this is good.

2:08 - They're handing out gifts to all the P2 Partner companies. Avid, AutoDesk, Apple, Adobe, Harris, Focus Enhancements, Hitachi, Rhozet, Omneon, Quantel, SGI, Fujifilm, Thompson Grass Valley, Microsoft, Nexio servers, Bit Central, NLG, MainConcept, EVS, For-A, and a bunch more.

2:12 - Okay, they're taking photos, and that's boring, so: AVCCAM? Weird. Why not AVCPRO? DVCPRO = AVCPRO, right? Sheesh, missed opportunity.

2:15 - Jim Wickizer again, thanks and goodbye.

Okay, now this is weird. What about the HVX200A? Mentioned in that other magazine ad, but no mention on the stage. Maybe they figure it's a streamlined introduction, not groundbreaking like the HPX170.

HPX170 looks very cool. It's so small! It's a little bigger than the 150, a lot smaller than the 200. Much lighter, and it's not a big puffy fatboy like the 200. Very easy to handhold. And get this: a six-pin firewire port! (you hearin' me, David S? Six-pin! Sweet!) It's got HD-SDI and 8 positions on the scene file dial, and they got rid of that stupid component connector, instead it has a small mini-D connector (more like I recall the Sony FX1 having). Seems like a step up. This model on display isn't a functional model, but inside the LCD it's got the WFM button as shown in the 150's pictures.

And it's got a menu navigation pad more like the DVX100's, with a little joystick. I think I like that -- no more complaints of the buttons being arranged 90 degrees off angle.

Actually, the 150 and the 170 look very much identical. Same lens markings (3.9 to 51mm), same buttons, oooh -- three filter settings (1/8, 1/16, and 1/64). Very nice. No firewire output on the 150, but that makes sense as AVC doesn't do streaming anyway. It's got USB though. 150 has an HDMI port. One SD slot, the 170 has two P2 slots. HVX200 was 5.8 pounds, the HPX170 is 4.2 pounds, that's dramatically lighter. Overall, very cool. No mention of 50/60Hz switchable, so I'll have to chase 'em down in the booth for more info.

aalleexx
04-13-2008, 02:03 PM
show me the money barry !!!!

aalleexx
04-13-2008, 02:08 PM
hahaha barry you are the man!!! man I wish I was there but I have a shoot tomorrow morning, hopefully you have some good news for us barry

n8ture
04-13-2008, 02:16 PM
Keeping my fingers crossed for some great announcements! :)

LuckyStudio 13
04-13-2008, 02:30 PM
Barry, you are the best !!!!!

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 02:39 PM
1:36 - the AG-HPX170! Looks like a new HVX. Weighs only 4.2 pounds -- MUCH lighter! Wider-angle lens, 3.9mm to 51mm. 1080P-capable camcorder, new advanced 1/3" 16:9 CCDs, high-performance DSP, 14-bit processing. 20 HD & SD formats, 16:9 and 4:3, time-date stamp function for legal deposition. 20 variable frame rates. Two P2 slots. Available in the fall, covered by 5-year warranty. HD-SDI output.

This sounds great:laugh:

Matthew R. Rodwell
04-13-2008, 02:41 PM
I hope they announce a price.

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 02:42 PM
I hope they announce a price.

yes, that would be great.

LuckyStudio 13
04-13-2008, 02:46 PM
I dont know what Barry is waiting for, at this point i would storm the stage, forcefully grab the new varicam and hpx170 and run my escape route (planned last night).

Kholi
04-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Ah THERE we go. But still 1/3" CCDs? Oh well. I'm excited to see what that sucker puts out!

HD-SDI OUT!! NOW they get serious.

Simon Höfer
04-13-2008, 02:47 PM
What about the LCD?

Kwan
04-13-2008, 02:49 PM
Great News
Thanks Barry

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 02:59 PM
So we are talkin 21 megabit for the HMC150?

manglerBMX
04-13-2008, 03:05 PM
looks like it!

1:57 - HMC150! New, full 1/3" 3-CCD handheld camcorder. Looks like it's very similar to the DVX form factor. Versatile, solid-state, affordable HD camcorder that will exceed your expectations. Stunning HD in four recording modes: 21, 17, 13, and 6 mbps. Full horizontal resolution images at 21, 17, and 13 mbps (1920x1080) and 6mbps = 1440x1080 for extended HD recording times. Supports a range of frame rates in both 1080 and 720 (24p, 30p, 60p/60i). Incorporates three 1/3" "production quality" CCD imagers, 19-bit processing, 14-bit DSP, 13x Leica Dicomar 3.9mm zoom lens, manual/auto focus and aperture operation, a range of selectable gamma functions for use in cine-style productions. Using a single 32GB card you can record 2.5 hours of 1920x1080 21mbps, or 12 hours of 6mbps video. Content can be played back directly on a growing number of affordable consumer players. Priced "under $4500" available this fall.

Matthew R. Rodwell
04-13-2008, 03:09 PM
"the HMC150 records stunning high definition in four recording modes – PH mode (average 21 Mbps/Max 24Mbps)" It can record up to 24Mbps

Joe Lawry
04-13-2008, 03:10 PM
siiick.. 21mbps is going to rule.. hm no BIG hvx upgrades.. guess it was time to revamp lower end prosumer lineup.

Do we know if the HPX170 has a tape mech? im doubting it..

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Do we know if the HPX170 has a tape mech? im doubting it..

I also doubt it, It'll cut the costs (hopefully).

manglerBMX
04-13-2008, 03:16 PM
with hd-sdi out that will give them a nice excuse to jack the price up more probably

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 03:18 PM
yes, that's true.

Joe Lawry
04-13-2008, 03:20 PM
My thoughts were the smaller size and lighter weight meant no tape mech..

florisvaneck
04-13-2008, 03:22 PM
All press releases with pictures:

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=239664&modelNo=Content04102008124337622&surfModel=Content04102008124337622

Joe Lawry
04-13-2008, 03:26 PM
pics? no pics.. damn. i want to see this 170

Matthew R. Rodwell
04-13-2008, 03:26 PM
It looks the same as the HMC150 but has P2HD on the side

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 03:28 PM
No pricepoint for this one?

florisvaneck
04-13-2008, 03:29 PM
Joe, there is a pic in the press release I linked to.

Matthew R. Rodwell
04-13-2008, 03:30 PM
My guess is about $6000-$6500, if so then its the HMC150 for me (or Scarlet depending on what that actually is)

PowerMac84
04-13-2008, 03:31 PM
HVX200a with new ccds and lense is on Panasonic website.

hemophilia
04-13-2008, 03:36 PM
link to hvx200a?

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 03:39 PM
Joe, there is a pic in the press release I linked to.

I couln't find any photos in your link.

n8ture
04-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Bags are packed Barry, when we leaving!! :)

ilauzirika
04-13-2008, 03:41 PM
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=240664&modelNo=Content04102008125519917&surfModel=Content04102008125519917 =240664&modelNo=Content04102008125519917&surfModel=Content04102008125519917

here it is.

smelni
04-13-2008, 03:42 PM
Barry, although I did scoop you on the 2 varicam style cameras in the announcement section - you of course beat me in detail and range of info - :)

nice work on the play by play - thanks

Postmaster
04-13-2008, 03:48 PM
Panny Press relase:

PANASONIC DEBUTS AG-HPX170, A NEW FULLY
SOLID-STATE P2 HD HANDHELD CAMCORDER

** Records in 20 HD and SD Formats, Offers Benefits of a Tapeless Workflow **

LAS VEGAS, NV (April 13, 2008) – Panasonic unveiled here at NAB the AG-HPX170, a fully solid-state P2 HD handheld camcorder. A full production quality tool, the solid-state handheld camcorder enables high definition and standard definition recording, the widest zoom lens in its class, and a HD-SDI interface for connection to baseband production and distribution infrastructure, all in a lightweight 4.2-pound body.

Fully solid-state, the two-slot HPX170 is a 1080p capable camcorder that offers the compelling advantages of P2 technology including: no moving parts unlike tape, hard disk drive, or disc-based systems; instant random access to recorded HD or SD content; a faster IT compatible file-based workflow; and the ability to operate in harsh environments with resistance to temperature extremes, shock and vibration.

Building on the success of the AG-HVX200, the HPX170 is equipped with new advanced 1/3-inch 16:9 3-CCDs and a high-performance digital signal processor with 14-bit A/D conversion and 19-bit processing to deliver broadcast-quality, independent frame recordings. The HPX170 offers a 13X Leica Dicomar zoom lens with a 28mm wide-angle setting (the widest in its class) and a cam-driven manual zoom for smooth, easy and precise operation. For added flexibility, the camera provides auto or manual focus and iris.

The multi-format camera records in 20 HD and SD formats; in a variety of 1080i and 720p formats in DVCPRO HD, in 480i in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO, and in 480i in DV. It’s switchable between 16:9/4:3 aspect ratios. The HPX170 offers a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects. For added creative flexibility, professionals can select from a variety of advanced gamma functions and settings including a CineGammaTM mode.

With its two P2 card slots, users can record up to 64 continuous minutes of the highest quality DVCPRO HD recording using currently available 32GB P2 cards. Record times will double with the release of Panasonic’s 64GB P2 card in the fall. Other user-friendly recording modes include hot swapping for non-stop recording, loop record, pre-record, interval and one-shot recording. A time/date stamp function makes it ideal for use in law enforcement environments.

The HPX170 is equipped with an HD/SD-SDI output standard for live feed productions as well as for editing and monitoring. It also has IEEE 1394 and USB 2.0 interfaces for fast P2 content transfer into NLE systems, and offers a composite output, component output (mini D-terminal) and a time-code setting via IEEE 1394. The camera also features a built-in stereo microphone and two-channel XLR audio input terminals supporting 48V phantom power supply with a selectable mic/line; and manual audio level volume (two-channel). Other convenient operational features include clip preview on the camera’s 3.5” color LCD monitor; instant recording startup, scene files, assignable user buttons, focus assist and a camera remote function.

The AG-HPX170 will be available in fall 2008. It will be covered by Panasonic’s five-year limited P2 HD warranty*.

slimchrisp
04-13-2008, 04:13 PM
HVX200a with new ccds and lense is on Panasonic website.

can you post the link?

bikefilms
04-13-2008, 04:27 PM
This is the part I like:

"The AG-HPX170 ... It will be covered by Panasonic’s five-year limited P2 HD warranty*."

Cees Mutsaers
04-13-2008, 04:34 PM
Do i understand it well that the HPX170 is not capable to record 1080/24p ???
It is not mentioned only 1080i

mcgeedigital
04-13-2008, 04:43 PM
Just got back from the presser as well.

Incredible news on the new Varicam P2 cameras. The NatGeo footage was JAW DROPPINGLY INCREDIBLE.

I mean, purely filmlike in every regard.

Got to meet the Wounded Marines Foundation staff, which was quite a treat. Kudos t Panasonic for supporting this great outreach organization.

Barry Green also gave me a copy of his HVX book and one each of his instructional DVDs as giveaways during my "Bulletproof P2 Work Flow" seminar tomorrow.

Thanks Barry!

Adam J McKay
04-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I am excited to see HMC in action.
wish I was there.

Robin Leveille
04-13-2008, 04:52 PM
here is an article on camcorderinfo showing a picture of the AG-HPX170 sorry if this has already been posted. I cant keep up with these posts coming from every directions.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/New-Panasonic-AG-HPX170-P2-Pro-Camcorder-34914.htm

Cees Mutsaers
04-13-2008, 04:59 PM
I wonder if they will put an improved LCD on the HPX170 !!!

joe 1008
04-13-2008, 05:16 PM
I´m sure they will do so. Image wise the HVX200a will already be up to the HPX170. So if there isn´t any big improvement compared to the new HVX200a - why showing up with a completely new cam within a few month?

k2director
04-13-2008, 06:28 PM
So the HPX 2700 looks interesting to me. It's the real successor to the Varicam, in my mind, because it can do variable frame rates up to 60 (instead of 30 on the HPX3700, which means no slow mo), and it's got the Varicam's Film Rec mode.

I wonder what the price will be? Hopefully, the same price as the HPX2000, which will therefore get cheaper in the Fall.

New_Zealand
04-13-2008, 06:49 PM
Ahhhhh sure wish I was down there checking this out for myself but maybe it is good that I'm not. Wife might kill me for spending more $$$$$ than what I'm alot for :-)

Armstrongfilms
04-13-2008, 07:07 PM
Ok.....my 1st post here, after owning a DVX (a model bought 2 weeks after release), then an HVX (bought within a month of release), i CANNOT believe that panasonic is still messing around with 1/3" ccd's.....and to have SO many options in a camera lineup to choose from with 1/3" imagers seems idiotic and may be a shot in the foot. at the very LEAST they could offer removable lenses in the 1/3" lineup, then there would finally be something to talk about. new codecs and small improvements to a 1/3" sensor are just not exciting until they quit pixel shifting with offset chips and cheating the bitrates. if this is all the hype this year at NAB08 i dont even have a reason to visit their booth. i would opt for 2/3" hpx500 over ANY of the new prosumer cameras. and do NOT kid yourselves folks, if the sensor is less than 1/2" you are prosumer, not professional.....the entire term was branded from the original 3ccd canons and sony's, which.....10 years ago.....were 1/4 and 1/3" ccds........time for them to get rid of them by putting them in 4 cameras priced from 3k-6k

my 2c

ullanta
04-13-2008, 07:50 PM
Oh, leave the poor 1/3" CCDs alone! For some of us, they're preferable! And just 'cause ONE 1/2" CMOS handheld camera has hit the market (with some significant downsides), you're saying it's lame to make 1/3" CCDs? A bit quick on that!

ChrisA
04-13-2008, 08:07 PM
Ok.....my 1st post here, after owning a DVX (a model bought 2 weeks after release), then an HVX (bought within a month of release), i CANNOT believe that panasonic is still messing around with 1/3" ccd's.....and to have SO many options in a camera lineup to choose from with 1/3" imagers seems idiotic and may be a shot in the foot. at the very LEAST they could offer removable lenses in the 1/3" lineup, then there would finally be something to talk about. new codecs and small improvements to a 1/3" sensor are just not exciting until they quit pixel shifting with offset chips and cheating the bitrates. if this is all the hype this year at NAB08 i dont even have a reason to visit their booth. i would opt for 2/3" hpx500 over ANY of the new prosumer cameras. and do NOT kid yourselves folks, if the sensor is less than 1/2" you are prosumer, not professional.....the entire term was branded from the original 3ccd canons and sony's, which.....10 years ago.....were 1/4 and 1/3" ccds........time for them to get rid of them by putting them in 4 cameras priced from 3k-6k

my 2c
If you want larger CCDs then you'll have to get a shouldermount, but handheld cameras are practical in a whole range of situations that big shouldermounts aren't. And at this stage technology isn't able to put 1/2" CCDs in small handheld cameras and still have them priced under 6K. In a few years quite possibly but for now 1/3" is the best we will get.

So if you want the benefits from the small size of handheld HD cameras, you are going to have to either put up with average low light performance/grain/soft image OR all the problems that occur with a rolling shutter. In the end it comes down to what will effect you the least, its as simple as that.

thematthewbone
04-13-2008, 08:11 PM
i'm kind of surprised no one is very excited about the HMC coming in at 4500 dollars.

i wish we could get a price estimate of the HPX. i think Panasonic outdid themselves.

TheMusician
04-13-2008, 08:23 PM
Barry, I am not trying to stir the pot, just have a curiosity question. Do you know if the chipsets in the 170 and the HVX200A are still going to be pixel-shifted, or have they gone full 1920x1080? I have been admiring the images coming from the EX-1 for the past couple of months, but I have always loved Panasonic colors and fear rolling shutter situations. Any information is much appreciated.

Andrew McCarrick
04-13-2008, 08:32 PM
Barry, I am not trying to stir the pot, just have a curiosity question. Do you know if the chipsets in the 170 and the HVX200A are still going to be pixel-shifted, or have they gone full 1920x1080? I have been admiring the images coming from the EX-1 for the past couple of months, but I have always loved Panasonic colors and fear rolling shutter situations. Any information is much appreciated.

If they were 1920 x 1080 CCDs they'd be absolutely pathetic in low light. More pixels, on same size sensor = smaller pixels = need more light. That's why I was hoping for 720 (with pixel-shifting to 1080) on 1/2" CCDs to keep just about the same (if not bigger) pixel size, but more of them.

TheMusician
04-13-2008, 08:39 PM
Andrew, I am sure that you are probably right - they are most likely pixel-shifted to get good low-light capabilities from the larger pixels. Barry did mention that the 170 and 200A have new chipsets with much lower noise, but didn't elaborate on the known details of the chips. Looking forward to hearing about it.

Barry_Green
04-13-2008, 08:45 PM
Do i understand it well that the HPX170 is not capable to record 1080/24p ???
It is not mentioned only 1080i
Of course it does 1080/24P. Exactly like the HVX does.

Barry_Green
04-13-2008, 08:49 PM
i'm kind of surprised no one is very excited about the HMC coming in at 4500 dollars.

i wish we could get a price estimate of the HPX. i think Panasonic outdid themselves.
They said "less than $4500." I read that the same way they said the HVX200 would be "less than $10,000." I still predict the HMC150 will carry a $3995 MSRP (same as the DVX100 had before its big price drop) and a street price of $3495.

As for the HPX170 -- no firm pricing. I believe it will not be more than the HVX200 because the model number is lower. I'll bet on $5795 MSRP, with hoping that it's $5495.

But the dollar/yen thing is not helping our cause much over here in the states, and I am more than a little sure that the reason they didn't announce firm pricing is because the dollar/yen ratio is so bad right now and the cams aren't due out for six months, so they're probably going to wait closer to the day of release so they know what they can realistically price it at.

Barry_Green
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Barry, I am not trying to stir the pot, just have a curiosity question. Do you know if the chipsets in the 170 and the HVX200A are still going to be pixel-shifted, or have they gone full 1920x1080? I have been admiring the images coming from the EX-1 for the past couple of months, but I have always loved Panasonic colors and fear rolling shutter situations. Any information is much appreciated.
No mention either way. I'll get a chance to play with an HVX200A soon so I should know. Frankly I'd bet on them using the same spatial offset technique. Manufacturing just doesn't allow for a 1920x1080 CCD any smaller than 2/3" right now. If you wanted 1920x1080 in a 1/2" or 1/3" unit, your only choice would be CMOS. Since these are CCD, I don't think they'll be 1920x1080 unless there's been some major breakthrough in manufacturing.

Barry_Green
04-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Barry did mention that the 170 and 200A have new chipsets with much lower noise, but didn't elaborate on the known details of the chips.
I told you all the "known details" that there are. :) That's what they said, so that's what I reported. No further information was offered.

ecking
04-13-2008, 11:28 PM
As for the HPX170 -- no firm pricing. I believe it will not be more than the HVX200 because the model number is lower. I'll bet on $5795 MSRP, with hoping that it's $5495.

I hope you're right because that SDI port is scaring me into thinking the price will be jacked up.

That said why wouldn't they rebrand the hvx as the hpx200a? And bring it more in line with their other stuff. HMC and HPX seem to be their two product lines, the hvx's name was obviously a sign of the times, it's time to fix that.

Depending on how sharp the final cam looks I may sell my A1 and hope back to panny cam for the hpx170 if the price is right. Come on panasonic!

Luis Caffesse
04-13-2008, 11:32 PM
Frankly I'd bet on them using the same spatial offset technique.

Probably a safe bet.
Not only would they probably be pushing "higher res chips" if they actually were...

They're actually touting "lower noise" and "more sensitivity."
Seems like it would be hard to achieve both of those advancements AND have higher res chips while keeping at 1/3 inch.

That's a long way to say I'm pretty certain the chipset if probably the same res-wise.
But I'm just guessing here.

Barry_Green
04-14-2008, 12:15 AM
That said why wouldn't they rebrand the hvx as the hpx200a?
Because it has a DV tape drive. The "V" in the product name means DV tape (like the DVX100 and DVC80 before it).

joe 1008
04-14-2008, 04:07 AM
Barry, do you think the HVX200a has a longer life despite the appearance of the HPX170? Or is it just a short shot to counterattack other companie's new cameras on the market until the release of the completely new model? As I red in the Panasonic press release, the lens and the chipset are identical to the HPX170. (Red it yesterday, checked it again today, but the press release - a sumup of the whole Panasonic releases - isn´t there anymore...)

Barry_Green
04-14-2008, 08:00 AM
Well, I don't know how the lenses could be identical since the 170 is 72mm and the 200A is 82mm. I'd question the veracity of that press release.

The 200A is the "transition" product for people moving up from DV who still need DV tape. If you're already committed to an all-P2 workflow, the 170 looks like the more attractive unit, assuming it does everything the 200A does. I won't know the full answer to that for another couple of hours when the show floor opens.

ecking
04-14-2008, 08:57 AM
Because it has a DV tape drive. The "V" in the product name means DV tape (like the DVX100 and DVC80 before it).

I see said the blind man.

ullanta
04-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Do we know anything about AVCHDs handling of different frame rates? Since it's not a "streaming" format, does it encode any pulldown, or is, for example, 24p @ 21Mbps less compressed than 30p @ 21Mbps?

hotchkiss
04-14-2008, 03:34 PM
Ok.....my 1st post here, after owning a DVX (a model bought 2 weeks after release), then an HVX (bought within a month of release), i CANNOT believe that panasonic is still messing around with 1/3" ccd's.....and to have SO many options in a camera lineup to choose from with 1/3" imagers seems idiotic and may be a shot in the foot. at the very LEAST they could offer removable lenses in the 1/3" lineup, then there would finally be something to talk about. new codecs and small improvements to a 1/3" sensor are just not exciting until they quit pixel shifting with offset chips and cheating the bitrates. if this is all the hype this year at NAB08 i dont even have a reason to visit their booth. i would opt for 2/3" hpx500 over ANY of the new prosumer cameras. and do NOT kid yourselves folks, if the sensor is less than 1/2" you are prosumer, not professional.....the entire term was branded from the original 3ccd canons and sony's, which.....10 years ago.....were 1/4 and 1/3" ccds........time for them to get rid of them by putting them in 4 cameras priced from 3k-6k

my 2c

uhh em. It's not the size of the chip, but how you ...."

Personally, I would have liked to see a 1/2 inch chip as well, and of course a 16x lens. Apparently, Panasonic doesn't appreciate my profound wisdom.

Oh well.

As for whether my camera says "professional" or "tremendous hack" on the side of it- I could care less. That's what white gaffers tape and a black sharpie are for. Sometimes I even write "Varicam" on the side of ye 'ole HVX.

I wonder how "Arriflex" would look.... ? ;-)

I suspect that 1/3 inch chips in this genre of cameras will go away eventually, but not until they can squeeze a bit more profit out of them. Hopefully that's sooner, rather than later. I suspect that Sony's implementation of 1/2 inch chips will put a little heat under Panasonic. This dynamic seems to be mirroring sensor sizes and camera development in the still camera world.

As for me, I'm gonna try and avoid purchasing another 1/3 inch chip camera this year, and wait for 2009's announcements. If these new and improved HVX-200A chips are really all that, then maybe I'll change my tune. Of course, the HPX 500 is another option.

In the mean time I've got a DVX100A to clear from the inventory.

ecking
04-14-2008, 03:50 PM
hotchkiss, it's my understanding that a 1/2" CCD can't be produced in this market, the only reason the ex1 had it is because of the lower power requirements of CMOS and even then the thing has two giant heat vents on it's side. A 1/2 CCD in that form factor would cook, which is why the hpx500 was reduced in price to kind of meet in the middle.

Maybe Barry could shed more light on this but that's my understanding of it.

Barry_Green
04-14-2008, 09:05 PM
I suspect that 1/3 inch chips in this genre of cameras will go away eventually
Really? If they do, it'll only be to something smaller.


I suspect that Sony's implementation of 1/2 inch chips will put a little heat under Panasonic.
Why? Sony's been doing 1/2" for at least a decade; the DSR300 was 1/2", the DSR400 was 1/2", the PDW-F330 was 1/2", and the F350 was 1/2". Nothing new here.

Panasonic's done 1/2" before, but they don't think it's a professional size. They think (if I'm conveying the attitude properly) that 2/3" is the professional size, and if you want a pro camera, you want 2/3". And 1/3" is for small portable cameras. 1/2" was a halfway ground that JVC experimented with and abandoned, and Panasonic experimented with and abandoned.

Barry_Green
04-14-2008, 09:09 PM
hotchkiss, it's my understanding that a 1/2" CCD can't be produced in this market, the only reason the ex1 had it is because of the lower power requirements of CMOS and even then the thing has two giant heat vents on it's side. A 1/2 CCD in that form factor would cook, which is why the hpx500 was reduced in price to kind of meet in the middle.

Maybe Barry could shed more light on this but that's my understanding of it.
A 1/2" HD CCD? Probably couldn't be done at full 1920x1080, no -- at least, not progressive. The only way to get 1920x1080 @ progressive was to go CMOS, which is why Sony went CMOS.

There's an interesting quote by Juan Martinez of Sony in an article he did explaining why one would choose CMOS or CCD. He basically said that if you want the best quality for digital cinema applications, you want CCD (which is why the new F35 and F23 are CCD). But if you're making a small handheld camera, CMOS is their preferred choice.

Sounds silly, but basically I don't think Sony could have made the EX1 if it wasn't CMOS. Juan said in a later post somewhere that if they'd made the EX1 with CCD "it would have burned up." So if you want that many pixels on that size of a chip, you have to go CMOS, where the lower power requirements keep the heat buildup under control.

You could probably make a 1280x720 CCD in 1/2", but you couldn't get a 1920x1080 1/2" in CCD using today's technology.

Bigger cinema cameras can use CCD because they're not concerned about power requirements and can deal with the associated heat issues. But a little handheld camera needs long battery life and a way to dissipate the heat.

PhantomVideo
04-17-2008, 06:06 AM
Red one is CMOS but i spose its form factor is smaller

mcgeedigital
04-17-2008, 06:37 AM
Red one is CMOS but i spose its form factor is smaller

No, Its a bit bigger than a football and also had colling issues before they upgraded the firmware.

joe 1008
04-17-2008, 06:37 AM
You could probably make a 1280x720 CCD in 1/2", but you couldn't get a 1920x1080 1/2" in CCD using today's technology.

Isn't that exactly what the HVX200a and the HPX170 will have? The sensors are quotet to have 1,1 million pixel which indicates a pixel distribution of 1280x720. On the HVX200a the angle of view has changed, the lens being the same as on the HVX200. You, Barry, were the one assuming that it is so due to a slightly bigger sensor. So, wouldn´t that be kind of a 1/3"+ sensor? Why doesn´t Pana try to make a point with that? A BIGGER, a 1/3"+ sensor? That would be the announcement that sells...

Johnnyfive
04-17-2008, 07:00 AM
Panasonic Press Conference video is up on their NAB site.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/nab2008/index.asp?cm_re=Systems-_-Product1-_-NAB%202008%20Convention

Jim Brennan
04-17-2008, 04:46 PM
I just wanted to take a time out to thank Barry for both the information he posted here, and the time he took with people on the floor in the Panny booth. By the time we got to him at about 3 o'clock on Monday, I am sure that he had answered the questions we had a couple of hundred times. But he was, as always, informative, gracious and encouraging.

As for the CMOS/CCD-1/2",1/3",2/3" inch discussion, Barry taught me a long time ago that there is no "best" in an objective sense. It's all about your application and needs. Even at 1/3' CCDs, the HVX is a kick-ass camera, doing things we could not have dreamed about few years ago. Increasing the low-light performance is a godsend, and while I can always use extra res, I'll take overall image quality and clients who drop their jaws over numbers on a spec sheet anyday.

Now the question is...am I ready to go completely tapeless, since they have a sub-10K P2 cam that will do that.....

PhantomVideo
04-17-2008, 05:41 PM
No, Its a bit bigger than a football and also had colling issues before they upgraded the firmware.

oh i see, cheers Barry love the min bi min update