HVX acceptable for HD broadcast? network rejection issues...

[schteevie]

I just got word from the distributer that my company works with that they can not distribute shows shot on the HVX200 to networks such as DiscoveryHD, National Geograpic HD, etc... because they will reject them!

I think this is due to the 1/3" chip in the HVX, vs. the 2/3" chip in the larger shoulder mount type cameras...

We don't have immediate plans for our current shows to go to those networks, but don't want to rule them out for future syndication either.

I am seriously considering just out and out lying if ever asked what the shows were shot on - they'll be delivered on HDcam tape in 1080i; so short of "knowing" what they were shot on, how is someone going to be able to tell?
Especially with lifestyle stuff where the image isn't generally pristine, because lighting is not always ideal at the best of times...

We are considering buying an HPX500 to cover ourselves, but that is not a small investment and we don't feel we really need it at this point + in some ways, shooting on the smaller HVX allows for getting cooler shots in a run and gun situation because the biger camera can be limiting some times - so which is the lesser evil? smaller chip, or bigger unwieldy camera??

any thoughts / experiences would be apreciated....

[Ram S.O.S]

I bet MOJO HD would consider your show if it was the type of program they would air. I watch MOJO everyday and they have a show called "I Bet you" that seems to be shot using 1/3" CCD cameras. I say that because they show the cameras a lot. I have heard that DIscovery HD has a certain percentage of 1/3" footage they will accept in a production. Something like 75% 2/3" CCD and 25% 1/3" would be acceptable. I'm not sure of the exact numbers though.

[bikefilms]

Yes, most "biggies" like the ones you mentioned will not take a program shot 100% with the HVX200. But that doesn't mean you can't use the camera. It means you're limited with the amount of HVX footage that ends up in the final cut. Some allow 10-20%.

[PerroneFord]

Just tell 'em it's RED.

What the heck is the difference between DVCProHD shot on the HVX and a 2/3" camera besides light gathering and DOF?

[mcgeedigital]

Just tell 'em it's RED.



Thats a s good way to ensure you will never get ANY show on a network. Don't misrepresent your footage.

Discovery and Nat Geo have specs for a reason.

[THoff]

Just tell 'em it's RED.

What the heck is the difference between DVCProHD shot on the HVX and a 2/3" camera besides light gathering and DOF?The number and size of the photo sites on the sensor.

[PerroneFord]

It was a JOKE man... you know... joke?

Clearly they have specs for a reason. Apparently, to keep broadcast firmly in the hands of people with $100k+ cameras.

[Luis Caffesse]

What the heck is the difference between DVCProHD shot on the HVX and a 2/3" camera besides light gathering and DOF?

Well, one looks better than the other.
Probably due mostly to the fact that the 2/3" camera is generally going to have a lens on it that costs many times what the 1/3" HVX costs.

It was a JOKE man... you know... joke?
Gotcha.

[seunosewa]

Why not the EX1?

[PerroneFord]

Why not the EX1?

Only has 1/2" sensors and shoots HDV.

[gibby1]

I just watched a behind the scenes show of "Deadliest Catch" on Discovery Channel. The entire show was shot on small handheld HD cameras. (Sony, I think)

This is a great episode because it's all about the camera crews and the conditions they had to work in. I liked it better than the regular show.

[wgzn]

that doesnt make sense. last i heard they used sony z1's on deadliest catch, survivorman and a few other shows. i think someones feeding you bad info...

[manglerBMX]

john and kate plus 8 are shot on z1's, but thats tlc hd and their stuff is probably more lenient.

[Arrow]

I just checked some data on Discovery Channel Canada, and their is a PDF that limites the use of HVX to that of HDV at I think it was 10 or 15%. But this was dated 2006 and was specific to canada only.

[PerroneFord]

So they are saying that they believed, in 2006, that the HVX was on par with the HDV cameras of the day?

Amazing.

[Justyn]

That's just such a load of giant crap they are slinging. So many other networks are still shooting with DVXs and who cares what it's shot on... but I guess when they rely on derivitive reality TV shows then they have to spend their time focusing on something rather than finding an original program.

I would give no credence to this and if you have "killer" footage on a single chip DV, who cares.

[NC17z]

I was at Bradley International Airport just north of Hartford, CT one evening picking up my girlfriend coming in from Texas. As I was waiting in the arrivals area I noticed three gentleman with several flight cases and a very distinctive Arri Light case. I decided to approach them and asked if they were videographers and they replied, Yes, and asked how'd I know they were videographers? I said I own two Arri Kits.... I then asked, "Who do you shoot for, and they said The History Channel.... I went ooooooooooooo.... and then asked what camera do you shoot with and they said the Panasonic HVX200, I then chuckled to myself and walked away...
I felt so proud to be a Panasonic HVX200 owner...

[gibby1]

that doesnt make sense. last i heard they used sony z1's on deadliest catch, survivorman and a few other shows. i think someones feeding you bad info...

My point was that these cameras were not "$100K" or 2/3 chip. Yes still HDV vs. DVCpro which makes no sense on Discovery's part.
They mentioned they used 50 cameras and yes it was the Z1.
They wrecked them all!

Myth Busters and Dirty Jobs use "smaller" cameras as well. I think they do have bigger cameras on set though.

[Mattykins]

Clearly they have specs for a reason. Apparently, to keep broadcast firmly in the hands of people with $100k+ cameras.

I cannot disagree with this more. Many shows use larger cameras to get the major stuff, while using smaller and cheaper insert cameras. Note Mythbusters, Deadliest Catch, Dirty Jobs...

F900s and other heavy duty cameras make appearances as well.

[Shane Ross]

Discovery Channel has three tiers of programming in terms of the cameras used.

Bronze - ALL HDV or HVX-200...stuff like Deadliest catch and Survivorman. Survivorman is ALL HDV, no way he can carry around anything bigger, since he is alone out there.

Silver - Main camera must be F900, F950, Varicam, and other higher end 2/3" chip cameras, with 10-20% of the B-CAmera being HDV or HVX-200...or EX1. Typical stuff you see.

Gold - ALL F950 and Varicam...no lower end B-camera stuff. Stuff like PLANET EARTH...all 70mm film, 35mm film, very little super 16mm film, 5% Varicam. And BONE DETECTIVE, as bad as that show is, the A and B camera are both Varicam.

Nat Geo has their own specs, but allow small amounts of sub $10k camera footage on certain shows.

[pmark23]

Do what everyone else does and lie. If it's a good show they're not going to care what it was shot on. The specs are just there to keep the riffraff away.

The requirements are made by upper management (who haven't been behind a camera in twenty years) on the advice of manufacturers (usually Sony), and are uniformly ignored by the engineering staff.

I've worked on a number of large-budget Discovery and network shows, and they all use cheap consumer HD cameras (mind you, I work overseas).

As one of the shooters put it, as soon as it goes through editing and post, nobody can tell what the original format was.

[PerroneFord]

That's why this is such a joke.

By the time that signal comes out of post, goes over satellite to the local cable operator, and goes out over ANALOG cable in many instances, or highly compressed DBS, and onto the 75% of SD televisions out there, you're gong to tell Varicam originated footage from HVX DVCProHD?

Yea right.


And lets not even talk about film. Much of which is scanned at 2k and the release prints 3-4 generations down, are often AWFUL.

[puredrifting]

One factor that is usually ignored in these threads are the conditions your show is acquired under.

If you go out and shoot a show, if they like it enough, they will buy it, regardless of what it was shot on.

OTOH, If you are commissioned for a show or series, you MUST contractually and legally abide by their rules, which will be stated in their contract. If you sign a contract, then violate the terms of the contract, they are within their rights to terminate their relationship with you. I own an HVX and have shot a lot of great footage with it but would I be shortsighted enough to think that "the man" is keeping me down by making me shoot with an expensive camera? No. It's their money, their network and their rules. If you don't like their rules, don't work with them, it's that simple.

Most experienced editors and producers probably could tell at least if the show was shot on a 1/3" vs. 2/3" camera. If you watched, "Feasting on Asphalt" on Food Network, it was shot all on HVX-200s and lipstick cams, looked fine. But Discovery, Nat Geo and their ilk are more picky obviously and they can be.

While I agree that at the consumer end, the signal often looks bad, a network or cable outlet can't just throw up their hands and abandon all tech specs. Remember, just like web video, GIGO. If it looks that bad with good signal input, imagine how bad it would look if they just threw up their hands and relaxed their standards. At the consumer end, it would go from bad to unwatchable.

My .02,

Dan

[PerroneFord]

No, it's not about that. If you sign a contract to shoot at a particular level, then shoot at that level. I see nothing wrong in that.

But, it wasn't all THAT long ago that people were talking about film-outs from the DVX. Movies like Iraq in Fragments shot entirely on a DVX and playing in theatres. Now, we see people like Abrams putting HVX footage into a 10-ten Box office movie, and we're debating because some jokers don't think it's good enough for TV? Come on... are they serious?

I remember when MTV and Food Network were getting footage from DVXs and PD150s. And now, a camera that can lay down 4 times the data and shoot 1080p suddenly can't supported?

If Hollywood can put 2k on the silver screen every week, then the Discovery channel can live with DVCProHD and 1080p out of the HVX. Sorry, I don't buy the snobbery.

[schteevie]

Sorry, I don't buy the snobbery.

It is not up to you to "buy the snobbery" :P
They don't care, and they still make the rules...

Anwyay - this thread has been very helpful - thanks a lot guys!

I think what I have gained from it is confirming what I initially thought:

1) If individually producing a show, do the best you can with what you have (HVX) and if they like it, they'll take it regardless of "specs"...

2) If contracted to shoot a show that they are paying for - shoot on what they tell you to; anything less is fraud.

3) thems the breaks.

[Mattykins]

Well first...

That HVX had nearly three hours on the head. The Viper and the CineAlta's Flagship the Sony F23. They started with the Viper but the F23 did better under the sodium vapor lights. :)

So that HVX didn't go anywhere really. But it was on set...

And if you like breaking contracts - fine. But fact of the matter is cameras do make a difference. We were using an F900 on a shoot for A&E. DP wouldn't use anything less, and that's what they had to use for the shoot.

[AJ101]

What about shooting on any HD camcorder and delivering on HD D5 or HDCAM SR, in 1080 50/60p??

[Jason Miller]

what about shooting on a sony hi8 handycam, upresing it, dubbing it to hdcam and giving it to them.

or what about taking the gigs that are happy with the hvx, the indi film, industrial, new, and many more, and let those who want more, go to those who have more.

its all about giving people what they want/payfor, not giving then what you want them to want lol. I think its good, keeps standards hi, and makes us work that much harder to make our little camera shine.

Jason

[Erik Olson]

Your deliverables have to be to whatever specification a particular network mandates. HDTheater and DCI nets have their own specification. HDCam and D5 are common.

Pre-negotiation over acquisition format is key if you're trying to have a show commissioned. If it is a spec work, then you can shoot whatever you want. Regardless of how you acquire, deliverables format will still be specified by the net.

Most HD networks allow a mix of formats / codecs. As was stated above, this is usually <30% against the 2/3" HD cameras like VariCam and [real] CineAlta.

I did a show last year which was entirely on XDCamHD (1/2" HDV ~35Mbps) for TLC/TLCHD. The original deliverables specification was SD... yeah. So, each deal is different and it is up to the producer and network to hammer out the details.

e

[zoostory]

Howabout I speak from experience:

We used a Z1U on a show called "The Inside" for POV footage. Fox. No problems.
My friends used HVX200s as crash cam's for the new Knight Rider. NBC. No problems.

I worked for Ghost Whisperer for about 2 years. Produced their web series using HVX200s with P+S Techniks. We ended up airing 4 spots in heavy rotation on CBS. No problems.

I've personally dealt with CBS a lot for DVD and broadcast standards and I will tell you, maybe in a dream world they have some hawkeyed format police man that watches every piece of footage and red flags sub par stuff... but fact is, all you have to abide by are NTSC broadcast standards. That is what they look for. A channel that is still SD, it's Digibeta making sure your color/luma are in spec. For HD stations, tack on HDCAM-SR with 5.1 on 1-thru 5 then Stereo on 7 and 8.

I mean, look at a show like Big Brother. It's a bunch of modified DV cams that stream in footage to a server. It's not even uncompressed, cause that would be way too much bandwidth. A lot of it is 4:1:1 DV, believe it or not.

I'm sure there are some cablers out there, particularly Discovery channel type stations, that are very focused on the look and quality of the image. My guess is if they are trying to enforce some kind of camera standard, what they are really doing is just trying to say - "hey, our stuff has to look great on this station."

So if they really like your stuff and want to make something happen, they'll be flexible and take it. If they like your content but feel like it needs to be shot better, they'll give you the money to reshoot it. If they turn you away for your camera, odds are that's a polite way of saying... this isn't what we want, thanks but no thanks.

[wgzn]

the thing about all this is when you deliver a commercial to your local comcast (time warner, etc...) they ask for MONO audio. and you can HEAR it when they switch from local to national advertisers.

at least thats the norm here in houston.

[ProfessorU]

the thing about all this is when you deliver a commercial to your local comcast (time warner, etc...) they ask for MONO audio. and you can HEAR it when they switch from local to national advertisers.

at least thats the norm here in houston.

Mono audio that they then compress the snot out of. It does always sound terrible. Frequently they get the video so out of spec it causes buzzing in the audio as well.

[mainstreetprod]

Always wondered why local commercials sound so bad. Not to mention, the audio level usually drops in half.

[seunosewa]

Do they really have to compress adverts more than regular programming? I don't see how that would help them overall.

[Jason Miller]

one more thing to consider, if you say you're shooting on hd-cam, varicam, what ever, you have to budget for it, if you then shoot on the hvx, and you turn your work in as hdcam, then your two budgets do not lne up, some can make an imbeselment argument on this.

Jason

[schteevie]

one more thing to consider, if you say you're shooting on hd-cam, varicam, what ever, you have to budget for it, if you then shoot on the hvx, and you turn your work in as hdcam, then your two budgets do not lne up, some can make an imbeselment argument on this.

Jason

I wouldn't do this if the network was involved in or had access to the budget.
In my case, I am talking about inde productions, so the budget is never any of the network's business...