Getting into event videography, budget concerns.

[Lynxis]

I've graduated TV Broadcasting at Fanshawe College last year where we got to use HVX-200 cameras. I've been saving my pennies in hopes of purchasing a camera so I can finally start my local business of event videography. I've finally got about $6500CAD saved up that I can spend on gear. Just in time too because I've got 2 friends who are getting married this spring which is an awesome opportunity to break in and show what I can do. It also helps matters that where I'm living now has very little competition with only 1 local guy and 2 companies who have to travel from a neighboring city.

What I'm worried about is the typical gear of the independent event videographer. There's probably tons of similar questions out there but the ones I've seen don't really answer the question as situations aren't really the same.

I'd like to get the HVX-200 as I'm already familiar with it and the P2 workflow is easy. Also, the images it produces approach broadcast quality which can't really be said for HDV cams. Unfortunately, after the camera, a 2nd P2 card and a laptop for storing the data, I'm basically broke. I don't even have an NLE yet. Forget microphones, tripods and other accessories.

Anyone with any idea how I could make this work without putting me into (further) debt?

[ProfessorU]

1) Rent
2) Live within your means. You could get a used two-camera DVX setup for what you have, plus sound. Shoot in 16:9, most clients aren't ready for HD yet anyway.
3) Beg and borrow. Find a friend with a matching camera and you can work out a loan agreement where you get his cam for the weekend if he gets yours for the weekday.

[crobs808]

I just got a brand new USA modeal HVX200 off ebay for $3700 from ebay user "time2envy". He can be 100% trusted, has over 11,000 poitive feedback rating. I then bought a Firestore FS-100 from adorama for $1500. that is a total now of $5200 USD. I am not sure what that translates into in Canadian dollars, but should leave you some extra for tripod/light/wireless mic and some extra $30-40 batteries.

I reccommend against going with P2 cards. You can get a FS100 Firestore with 100gb, then buy a $100 250gb harddrive, and upgrade it to give you up to 7or8 hours of 1080p recording. thats what i did with my firestore...they just ups laptop harddrives inside, so upgrading is easy, you just have to make sure you find one with the same volatage requiremenets, rpm, and buffer size as the original harddrive. i recommend the hitachi 250gb travelstar...fs100 comes with the 100gb hitachi travelstar, and the 250 uses the same energy requirements. at first i was going to upgrade with a 7200rpm drive, but they get hotter, so stick with what works. 250gb should be sufficient

[Nexis]

Lynxis,

In case you consider buying off Ebay, there are many threads on this forum about it. Naturally, be careful. Also remember that if you are purchasing from the U.S., you will be hit with GST, possibly PST, and also possibly import duties, since the HVX is not manufactured in the U.S.

Also remember that if you buy off Ebay, you will not have dealer warranty support close at hand. You will have to rely exclusively on Panasonic, and Panasonic Canada is considered by many dealers not to be nearly as "user friendly" as Panasonic U.S.A.

The advantage of purchasing an HVX from the U.S., however, is that you will save yourself over $900, since in Canada the 16 GB P2 card is NOT bundled with the camera like it is in the U.S. (don't even get me started...).

Personally, I disagree with crobs808 about going with the Firestore as opposed to P2 cards. I'm not saying he's wrong - there is considerable debate about this point, and it comes down to personal preference. Many users have had problems with the Firestore - for example, its connection to the camera can become flimsy/unreliable after extended use (not a P2 concern), footage stored on it can be significantly affected by vibration (not a P2 concern), and some users are of the opinion that its workflow isn't as easy as the P2.

As far as other equipment is concerned, either rent, borrow, or look for deals like you'd find on craigslist (Toronto is great for that, btw). Don't get sucked in right away to buying stuff and blowing your budget when other solutions might be available. :)

[crobs808]

Personally, I disagree with crobs808 about going with the Firestore as opposed to P2 cards. I'm not saying he's wrong - there is considerable debate about this point, and it comes down to personal preference. Many users have had problems with the Firestore - for example, its connection to the camera can become flimsy/unreliable after extended use (not a P2 concern), footage stored on it can be significantly affected by vibration (not a P2 concern), and some users are of the opinion that its workflow isn't as easy as the P2.

yeah, i bought the P-elbow lock that fits on the end of a firewire cable and specfically made for hvx users with firestore. keeps it from coming out by locking into the port rather than just plugged in/hanging there. also, i use premiere pro cs3 to edit, which handles firestore fiels and p2 files natively without the need for Raylight or any other 3rd party plugin, so that might be why ppl on here like p2, since most use FCP and not premiere pro.

-connor

[crobs808]

...1) Rent...

This is something I will never tell someone to do. I see this all the time, advice telling people to rent, but unless you are just shooting for one day, its gonna cost you like $700-$1000 per rental, and most people on here are shooting on a tight budget...my advice is get two jobs for 3 months out of your life, eat beans and rice for those thre months, then pay cash for the equipment you want. sure those three months will be hard but then you really get your money worth. after 2 or 3 gigs or renting, you could have bought the dang equipment now with the money you have spent, so i always suggest against renting. (unless you have a friend that will let you borrow, or for like $50, then its worth it)

-connor

[wgzn]

in my experience. if youre shooting anything "HD" and you cant build the cost of camera rental into the price of the job - youre doing something VERY wrong.

[ProfessorU]

You can rent the HVX for US$200 a day, with P2 cards included. Event videography is usually a one-day gig. If not, you'll get a price break for multiple days anyway. If you were going to shoot 30 paying events in the next year, buying would make sense. But if you had that kind of work lined up, you wouldn't be scrounging for cash right now.

You could still buy equipment that is more universal. A nice tripod with head, an HD monitor, sound gear, lighting, etc. That stuff can work with nearly any camera you might rent.

[crobs808]

You can rent the HVX for US$200 a day, with P2 cards included. Event videography is usually a one-day gig. If not, you'll get a price break for multiple days anyway. If you were going to shoot 30 paying events in the next year, buying would make sense. But if you had that kind of work lined up, you wouldn't be scrounging for cash right now.

You could still buy equipment that is more universal. A nice tripod with head, an HD monitor, sound gear, lighting, etc. That stuff can work with nearly any camera you might rent.

wrong, this is only trues if you live on the west coast, or a city where these kind of store spawn all over the place. in dallas, texas, a HUGE city, the lowest price for a hvx200 is $250 a day, and that is just the camera, and 2 batteries. sure, in california on the west coast, or on the east coast where theres a rental shop on every corner, then sure, $200 with everything is easy to find. believe it or not - it is the same price to rent online from zacuto for a weeked as it is to rent locally in Dallas, texas. i mean this IS the biggest wedding event capital in the world (most weddings per capita anywhere in the world as of 2004-2007), still holding the record (other than vegas, and i dont think marriages that have a 99% divorce rate because they were drunk at the time really counts, lol)

so anyway, be glad you dont live in dallas and want to rent.

also to the poster who said you should be able to build in your costs to any project for rental...haha, try shooting weddings. brides will spend $10,000 on a photographer, and think a HD videographer deserves $500 bucks. It's pathetic, insulting, and frankly annoying to get this day in day out, so have some respect for those of us basically doing lots of people favors by charging only $2,000 for a 3 days shoot, 8 hours a day in 1080p

-connor

[ProfessorU]

have some respect for those of us basically doing lots of people favors by charging only $2,000 for a 3 days shoot, 8 hours a day in 1080p

-connor

You may be doing brides a favor, but you're hurting yourself and any other videographers in your area. When you underbid on a job, you're part of the problem.
I work in the midwest and I turn down more gigs than I accept. I even have a relatively standard "your budget and my day rate don't match" letter, because there are amateurs on the market that will shoot three days for $300, and they think they can get a professional for a cut rate. The only way to give yourself a pay raise is to refuse work that can't pay you what you're worth.

[JonathanLB]

This is something I will never tell someone to do. I see this all the time, advice telling people to rent, but unless you are just shooting for one day, its gonna cost you like $700-$1000 per rental, and most people on here are shooting on a tight budget...my advice is get two jobs for 3 months out of your life, eat beans and rice for those thre months, then pay cash for the equipment you want. sure those three months will be hard but then you really get your money worth. after 2 or 3 gigs or renting, you could have bought the dang equipment now with the money you have spent, so i always suggest against renting. (unless you have a friend that will let you borrow, or for like $50, then its worth it)

-connor

I agree. I think it's terrible advice, I would never tell anyone to rent. Renting is almost always overpriced for camera equipment and goods, MUCH better to buy. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't have bought the camera. Renting is also a huge pain in the butt and a waste of time you could be spending finding jobs or doing actual work, not dealing with insurance certificates, making phone calls about camera availability, driving to pick up a camera, return a camera, etc. No thanks. That's part of the rental price, unless you consider your time worthless and ignore the gas money you spend.

Renting makes no sense whatsoever for some things, and if you plan to use the same camera on lots of projects then it makes no sense. It still makes no sense even if you want a better camera on bigger projects, since those projects will obviously have the budget to pay for a bigger camera rental anyway, so might as well own SOMETHING good that does the job for lower budget work.

[Eric Papa]

My biggest question is why are all of you so concerned about shooting HD if your not even finishing on Blu-ray? I did one wedding on Blu-ray last October and the Bride hasn't even watched the Blu-ray disc. She just wanted "the best".

I lose money on HD weddings compared to what I make on SD weddings.

I agree with you ProfessorU - if your work is worth more than cheap brides weddings than refuse it. If its not - then take it. If you really need money - then take it.

I also feel renting is a good idea. Here in cleveland I rented an XH-A1 for $200 when I needed a 3rd camera for the ceremony.

Its true Brides will spend more on photography, thus, I started offering both. Its so much easier having a wedding photography day than a video day, and the pay is better.

The problem is these companies making these little consumer cameras which out perform the professional ones. On my 3 camera wedding shoot to Blu-ray disc, I used an HVX200, an XH-A1 and an HV-20. Guess which one had the sharpest footage? The $890 Canon HV20. In my opinion, the XH-A1 sucked, the footage was very grainy, the HV-20 blew it away. The HVX200 had a better color, but in low light, the HV-20 was again the winner out of the 3 cameras. (We have on-camera lights for each camera too.)

http://www.epphd.com

[wgzn]

so have some respect for those of us basically doing lots of people favors by charging only $2,000 for a 3 days shoot, 8 hours a day in 1080p

if youre only charging $2000 for 3 , 8 hour days - you should be beaten with your camera. then have it taken away from you.

[crobs808]

if youre only charging $2000 for 3 , 8 hour days - you should be beaten with your camera. then have it taken away from you.

some people do it for the money, and some people do it because it's truly their passion. i am the latter, and anyone who thinks making $3/hour after editing isnt enough for the product they put out should have THEIR equipment taken away from them.

did you know that over 80% of event videographers and photographers have regular/unrelated 8am-5pm day jobs? you cannot make a living off this, much less support a family, so no matter HOW good you are, if you do weddings it will ALWAYS be a weekend job (and editing weeknights), that's just the way it is. Brides just DO NOT PAY what you are worth. It's a fact, and once you accept it, you will have much more fun doing event videography, rather than worrying about every penny. Get a real job, then pursue your passions. There are some passions that cannot be full time jobs, event/wedding video is one of them, so those of us just have to live with that. You'll never get a bride to pay $10,000 for a video package, unless it's a favor by a family member or friend. Accept it, move on, and have fun with what you can get.

-Connor

[John Caballero]

If you eat rice and beans for 3 months and got your initial money to buy your equipment, That is fantastic! Now you got the camera and equipment. Now if you want to get up at 3 in the morning and do some shooting of the moon you can if you want and you don’t have to wait until the morning to go and rent.
My advice is never listen to people that tell you what you are suppose to charge to appease the competition in your area. Shot for yourself and yourself only. If you want to charge $100.00 for a wedding that is fine with me. That is $100.00 more on your pocket at the end of the day! If a client can pay $10,000 then give them a $10,000 package. If they do not have a lot of money work within their budgets for your time and an appropriate package.
I myself couldn’t care less about my competitors in my area because they don’t give me any money to eat or pay my rent and will take all the jobs for themselves if they could.
If a wedding client wants HD or not either is immaterial. Even if you give them regular DVDs the video is going to look beautiful because the HVX200 camera shoots great images in the first place. You can also shoot DVCPRO 50 and it looks gorgeous. And now that the dust has settled in the HD Dvd competition a lot more people are going to have HD players in their homes soon.
The way the economy is these days you have to struggle and hustle while you keep working on your shooting skills and later on you move to something different. Event shooting can be very creative, especially weddings. You will build up as you go.
The most important thing when starting out is to work hard and pay your dues and slowly make your money but make it. Do not listen to anything that will slow down your drive. It is your camera, your equipment, your time. Put up flyers, make some business cards, shoot friends’ weddings and start YOUR business not anybody else’s idea of your business. Good luck with all your new ventures!

[Jason Ramsey]

some people do it for the money, and some people do it because it's truly their passion. i am the latter, and anyone who thinks making $3/hour after editing isnt enough for the product they put out should have THEIR equipment taken away from them.

Some people have families to feed, and responsibilities...


did you know that over 80% of event videographers and photographers have regular/unrelated 8am-5pm day jobs? you cannot make a living off this, much less support a family, so no matter HOW good you are, if you do weddings it will ALWAYS be a weekend job (and editing weeknights), that's just the way it is. Brides just DO NOT PAY what you are worth. It's a fact, and once you accept it, you will have much more fun doing event videography, rather than worrying about every penny. Get a real job, then pursue your passions. There are some passions that cannot be full time jobs, event/wedding video is one of them, so those of us just have to live with that. You'll never get a bride to pay $10,000 for a video package, unless it's a favor by a family member or friend. Accept it, move on, and have fun with what you can get.

-Connor

... my wife's brother in law owns a business that once did 1 million dollars in sales in one year. Video and Photo. Weddings only.

Point being... speak for yourself. If it's a hobby for you, if it's lawn mowing money for you... great. But, there are people who make a living doing it. There are plenty of people who charge 10,000 bucks a wedding and even more. I just came back from a place where the average yearly income per person is less than 3,000 bucks, but wedding businesses sell 10,000 dollar packages routinely, and they film it with PD-170's.

There are plenty of ways to make money in this country. And, for plenty of people owning a wedding video business is one of those ways.

Later,
Jason

[dantewaters]

Well said, I believe every word of it I see it all the time at:

http://still-motion.ca

[wgzn]

some people do it for the money, and some people do it because it's truly their passion. i am the latter

connor. that may be THE most ignorant statement ive heard this month. and im not saying that to be ugly to you. its just clear that you are coming at things with a very limited perspective.

first of all please, PLEASE tell me that "$3/hour" was a typo?!?!?!

its my passion AND my business. i dont quite gather how you seem to think the two are mutually exclusive. ive been in this biz for well over a decade and ive been at both ends of that spectrum. but i finally decided that it made more sense to do 8 $25,000 projects a year than try to do 100 $2000 projects.

the work is out there and its there for anyone. just because someone chooses to accept the low paying gigs or their experience (or negotiating skills) dont allow them to get more - doesnt mean its not there for someone else.

this is the same in any business. there are people who will pay a premium for premium products and there are people who wont. it all depends on how and to whom you present yourself.

as a side note, i've known several wedding/event videographers who do well over $100k a year and thats all they do. they shoot on the weekends and edit weekdays and their "weekend" is generally tuesday/wednesday

[andy mace]

crobs808 is independantly wealthy...

[ProfessorU]

I know a guy who makes $60,000/yr and works for five months out of every year shooting weddings. The other seven he has fun and hangs out with his kids.

This is your art, and it's worth whatever you sell it for.

When I did weddings, I factored in each camera as a rental. When I could use one I owned, it was a nice bonus, or let me save up to buy some other equipment.

It's a good place to be in if you're known as "the city's most expensive" wedding videographer because then everyone will know you're not competing on price.

[Lynxis]

I had no intention on starting a debate like this when I asked the question.

The idea had always been that I would be able to provide HD event videography at a similar price to people who are offering only SD. In exchange for this, is the fact that I'm not as experienced or established.

Look as I might, I'm at an impasse. I could purchase a gray market product through e-bay and save almost $1000 upfront but if something happens to the camera and I miss 2 shoots because I cannot get my camera back to me in working order as quickly, those savings are long gone. Even missing just 1 shoot negates most of the savings and the bad rep of having to say "sorry my camera is down" will be more than enough for the rest.

I could get 2 DVX100 cameras easily enough to negate that issue but then what am I offering that someone else isn't? It's definitely not experience. It isn't establishment. Quality of work? How do we know? The idea of offering HD is marketing. I'll be able to offer something that NO ONE else is and lets face it, for the ignorant masses, thats often enough. I'll be able to futureproof myself and my clients.

They might not have an HDTV right now. But they will eventually.

[ProfessorU]

Sell them on something else unique about your product. Do interviews with the families, put together a montage of preparing the wedding to show at the reception, or offer a 10-minute "quick version" of the ceremony on DVD, with just the highlights in a cool montage.

Families will hire you because they trust you. It's better to explain your high prices than apoligize for your quality.

I got a lot of business by giving my clients $100 for each referral that paid a deposit.

[wgzn]

dont worry lynxis, youdidnt start any debate that hasnt already been had in other threads here. but i have to say

approach broadcast quality which can't really be said for HDV cams- SVHS is "broadcast quality". the HVX far exceeds that. as do any of the HDV cameras
at least 3 discovery channel shows are shot primarilly on HDV. a lot of folks here and in other forums get all tied up in discussions of gear. movies/films/videos have been made for years from even VHS cameras. get what you can aford and shoot your GOOD ideas - and shoot them WELL.

beyond that its up to salesmanship. PERIOD.

on another note. a lot of folks think they can just buy an hvx for $5k and be ready for prime time. sure they CAN. many have. and i did - but i grew it from there.
the reality for a newcomer is that after the camera, mics, p2, firestore, tripod, lights, lens adapter and lenses, etc. youre not gonna build an even approaching "comprhensive" HVX rig for less than about $7k

[JonathanLB]

That's very true... only I personally would never touch or buy a firestore. I've heard nothing but bad things, yet some people here love 'em I guess. I don't see the point for me. We have someone on set capturing that footage as it's shot right to the hard disk and backing up to externals. No use for that thing.

[wgzn]

jonathan - have you ever personally USED a firestore? if not, youre just spreading unsubstantiated rumors. "sammie? bob said he doinked her on the first date!"

- well, what if bob is a liar? or if bob is just trying to look cool? or if bobs just too dumb to know technically what "doinking" is?

firestores scare me as well based on rumors. but mine (FS4 and FS100) have never once failed me.

[Lynxis]

I've long since accepted that I cannot just spend 5k on the camera and be ready to go. Along those lines, I've decided it would be poor foresight if I spent 5k on a camera for 2 shoots which may just sit there after that.

The most important thing for me at this point is to build experience and establishment. This is a city which thrives on word of mouth. Because I'm new and I'm shooting these first 2 weddings for very close friends of mine, I'll be doing them at cost which will be around $400 after rental of gear and edit suite time which is extremely reasonable if you ask me.

Especially when the established photographers in town request at minimum around $1000 for a bare minimum shoot.

[JonathanLB]

connor. that may be THE most ignorant statement ive heard this month. and im not saying that to be ugly to you. its just clear that you are coming at things with a very limited perspective.

first of all please, PLEASE tell me that "$3/hour" was a typo?!?!?!

its my passion AND my business. i dont quite gather how you seem to think the two are mutually exclusive. ive been in this biz for well over a decade and ive been at both ends of that spectrum. but i finally decided that it made more sense to do 8 $25,000 projects a year than try to do 100 $2000 projects.

the work is out there and its there for anyone. just because someone chooses to accept the low paying gigs or their experience (or negotiating skills) dont allow them to get more - doesnt mean its not there for someone else.

this is the same in any business. there are people who will pay a premium for premium products and there are people who wont. it all depends on how and to whom you present yourself.

as a side note, i've known several wedding/event videographers who do well over $100k a year and thats all they do. they shoot on the weekends and edit weekdays and their "weekend" is generally tuesday/wednesday

We also came to the same conclusion, wgzn, better to hold out for 8 great projects a year than take little ones. We've had clients ask to make music videos for $2,000, $2,500, $550, etc. We can't make anything good with those budgets, let alone make a profit and make the quality of work we expect to make. I don't believe in shooting a music video with a crew of 3 people and then editing it myself. I believe in having a professional crew of at least 7-8 people, that's skeleton crew level (my last shoot we had about 20 cast / crew), and having the money in the budget to make something really great. We have been trying to break into the Persian music video market, because my friend has lots of Persian friends who are singers, but we've found that many of them won't pay what we expect to make, so we decided we're fine with being the relatively expensive guys ($8,000-12,000, still tiny budget by American standards, seriously) you go to if you're a serious musician who wants professional Hollywood results, not crap quality home videos by our competition. If that's how you want to sell yourself, go for it, but we want to work with people who take their careers seriously and will pay us fair money to make them professional results.

Never sell your name so cheap. It's very hard to ask for more when you've already sold yourself so cheap...

"the XH-A1 sucked, the footage was very grainy"

lol, that's funny because we shot with the XH-A1 once, had major grain issues, got our HVX200s (loved them, still love them, great little cameras for the price especially), and then our XH-A1 got stolen (office robbery) and we never replaced it, just got the insurance money and we decided no reason to rebuy that one.

[ProfessorU]

Well I agree with the philosopy, but I must add that if I were shooting a music video in Milwaukee, I'd be happy to get $2500. But most musicians that are ready to spend more are going to leave the city for that kind of service anyway. I can't compete with the guys on the west coast because I'd never get enough jobs to keep the crew and equipment paid for. There is a sweet spot where you can be the expensive guy locally and maybe not the expensive guy nationally.