DVCPRO HD Codec from HVX

[ajmax]

I have been told that my footage from my HVX cannot be played on PC's because of the DVCPR HD codec when I give someone a Quicktime file.
Is that True? It usually happens when I make a self contained Quicktime from my footage in Final Cut Pro. The Final Cut Pro guys say it is the DVCPROHD Codec that is being generated from th camera.
If that is true, how are the guys editing on a PC able to see it?

[TwistedLincoln]

Yes, that's true. Those that you send the files to will need DVFilm's Raylight Decoder (http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/decoder/index.htm) to play them back, or if they want to author them also they could get Raylight Encoder Pro (http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/EncoderPro/index.htm).

[Barry_Green]

If that is true, how are the guys editing on a PC able to see it?
This is an Apple problem. Apple created this problem in two stages:
1) they force you to convert the MXF files into their proprietary Quicktime format, and then
2) they make those files specifically incompatible with Windows.

There are two solutions to this problem.

1) quit converting to Quicktime. Use Raylight for the Mac, or HD Log. Either tool will let you use the original MXF files instead of having to convert into Apple's proprietary format.

2) If you won't do that, or need to export files, you again have two choices:

2a) Use the Raylight P2 Maker program, which exports MXF files that can be used by any Windows NLE, or

2B) Use the Raylight DVCPRO-HD Decoder on the Windows system, which lets you read Apple DVCPRO-HD quicktime files on Windows computers. This is the easier solution for Mac users, but it's a weak solution for Windows users because the Quicktime files play very slowly as compared to MXF files.

[THoff]

In addition, Panasonic provides two utilities for the PC that can view/play the original P2/MXF files from the camera -- P2 Viewer and the P2 Content Management System.

I know from personal experience that Edius Broadcast can view and edit QuickTime DVCProHD files without any third-party software.

[ajmax]

I have heard about making my Quicktime movie form my HVX footage using an H.264 codec.
i have not tested since i do not have a PC.
Would this work?

[THoff]

For delivery? Certainly. It's not suitable for editing though.

QuickTime H.264 files can be created using both the Mac and Windows version of QuickTime 7 Pro -- you can use the free version for playback, but encoding requires the paid-for Pro version.

[mule ferguson]

Thoff: Have you tried Edius with the new AVC Intra plugin. I just upgraded my HPX2000 with the Intra board,and the GV plugin doggle is on the way.
Mule

[THoff]

Nope, I have not. If you want me to take your new toys for a spin, just say the word! (c8

[ajmax]

So If i give someone a Quicktime with the H.264 codec they can see it but they will not be able to edit from it?
Is that what you are saying?

[THoff]

They can edit from it, but I wouldn't recommend it because it is such a highly compressed format. You could provide a high-bitrate H.264 file to them and they could transcode that to something more suitable to editing.

Or they can use the Raylight Decoder and work with QuickTime DVCProHD files. That's probably the most painless and expedient way.

[crobs808]

or...you can just edit natively in premiere pro cs3. p2 support is native, no conversion needed, you can even edit straight off the firestore acting like an external harddrive, and write fine; exported files back to it, since windows sees it as just another external drive like any other external.

the more i read about fianl cut users having all these issues with hd, hdv, mov formats not playing cross platform etc....anyway, the more i hear the happier i am using premiere pro to edit. i mean it can handle any file in it's native format thrown at it, even mac mov files, wheras fcp cant handle windows AVI's etc...

all the people telling em to switch to final cut are just people who have never used both. ive used both, and i prefer an editor that can handle my hvx200 files natively. i mean i didnt upgrade my fs100 to 250gb for nothing, may as well use what works and saves me time. premiere pro can do anything final cut can, but ppl dont know that cause they dont take the time to try it out and see that it really would save them time.

sorry, didnt mean to turn this into a fcp-bashing post, but in premiere you can see a filter on your video frame immediately after applying it in the preview window, no need to render. i mean that alone is worth the switch for time saving.

:connor

[Barry_Green]

People can choose their NLE for any variety of reasons, whether it's compatibility with certain plug-ins or because they already know how to use it or it's what their friends use at school or it's what they use on the job, or whatever. And to choose an NLE specifically because they want to work with footage from their camcorder is a plenty fine reason. But if that camcorder is a P2 camcorder, then to choose FCP because you want to work with HVX/HPX footage? That's crazy. If that was the camcorder someone expected to be using, FCP would be the last editor I'd recommend.

If someone wants to move to FCP for other legitimate reasons, go right ahead. But to move to it because you want to work with P2 footage would be the completely wrong decision, as every other editor works with the footage better and in a cross-platform-compatible way.

[David S.]

But Barry, not everybody feels that editing mxf files natively is the cat's meow.

Just because the app unwraps and rewraps doesn't make it a completely the wrong solution. In fact, many of us prefer that method.

If the editor wants to edit mxf natively for whatever reason, then I agree with you.

[Barry_Green]

Or if they want to share files cross-platform. Which is, of course, how this whole thread started.

FCP's approach: spend time to unwrap the files and convert to our own proprietary format that you can't use on any of the Windows systems out there.

Everybody else's approach: keep the files in their native format, edit them instantly even straight off the card, and freely share them cross-platform.

I know which one I prefer. I don't care how anyone slices it, the FCP approach is inferior and more limiting to the approach everyone else has taken. That is NOT to say that FCP is an inferior editor. But it is to say that FCP's approach is the least-integrated, most-limiting way to do it. So if someone was choosing an editor specifically to work cross-platform or to work with P2/MXF files, I think FCP's approach makes it the least attractive. Aside from, and apart from, any other merits FCP may have.

[ajmax]

Thanks Guys
I have invested in FCP. and apple. I can not spend another 10 to 15 k on editing.
I just wanted to know what was in my arsenal that can help me give others who are on PC systems a Quicktime file codec.
Without any other purchase or plug ins. I read some confirmed my original question of using an H.264 code. I know that it is more compression, but i have to give them something with what i have...
Thanks,,,,

[Jim Kinsey]

If you want to export say a few clips for stock footage or a short for a client to view and open on a PC just export under QT conversion Photo JPEG 95% or best quality. Under size set to 1920 x 1080 for the High end HD and 1280x 720 for the 720 stuff and set your audio to what you want and export as self contained movie. Your client PC or Mac based will view your file/ movie no problem and retain high enough rez for any stock house out there. The only disadvantage is it takes up some disc space.

JK

[G-Man]

or...you can just edit natively in premiere pro cs3. p2 support is native, no conversion needed, you can even edit straight off the firestore acting like an external harddrive, and write fine; exported files back to it, since windows sees it as just another external drive like any other external.

:connor

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but does premiere pro cs3 natively support mxf files if you use a mac?--sorry if this is a dumb question, logically I would assume it would, because it appears that it is the FCP software, and not the apple hardware, which prevents one from editing mxf files natively.

Also, if you have the CS3 Production Premium, you can't run it properly with Leopard, right? You'd need Tiger? (Leaping lizards!)

[David S.]

But that's my point. Not all of us work in cross platform environments.

My guess is that most of us do not, and work on one platform and one NLE.

However, I always backup by p2 volumes. But I frankly do not care about editing mxf natively.

I respect your opinion, but having edited with p2 on FCP for more than two years, I don't find anything measurably "inferior" about it.

I also have Premiere CS3 on my system, and it has native mxf support.

I never touch it.

[crobs808]

well, it's not really true.

sure, you cant play them straight on a brand new installation of XP, but VLC player has p2/mxf/dvcprohd support, and Premiere Pro CS3 can edit P2 natively without the need for Raylight, so sure...if you edit in Vegas or a lesser program like that you will have to convert first, or use a 3rd party plugin to edit those file, but if you edit in Premiere Pro, you can edit natively, and if you just wanna view, download VLC.

I am on an iMac, so i can boot into Windows or MacOS, and on both I use VLC...i never use windows media player and i never use quicktime. both programs are so limited and play very few file formats.


-connor

[Barry_Green]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but does premiere pro cs3 natively support mxf files if you use a mac?
Yes.

[Barry_Green]

But that's my point. Not all of us work in cross platform environments.
Ah, but as the old saying goes: "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."

You have not run into any problems yet, so okay -- more power to you. But others have run into this problem (er, for example, the whole point of the original post in this thread?) And I think people should be made aware that they're choosing a closed path when they choose the Apple FCP solution.

I will always maintain that an open system with interchangeable interoperability is indeed superior to a closed system that prevents you from working with others. Call me crazy that way, but I absolutely assert that FCP's xenophobic attitude is "inferior" to the interoperable system chosen by every other NLE.

Doesn't mean you can't love FCP all you want, and it certainly doesn't mean that FCP "as an NLE" is inferior to the others. But that particular closed-system approach is inferior, no doubt about it.

I also have Premiere CS3 on my system, and it has native mxf support.

I never touch it.
I also have an iMac, with FCP on it. I also never touch it. :)

[David Jimerson]

...if you edit in Vegas or a lesser program like that

Like FCP, the way it handles (or doesn't handle) MXFs natively doesn't speak to whether or not it's a "lesser" program.

[crobs808]

People can choose their NLE for any variety of reasons, whether it's compatibility with certain plug-ins or because they already know how to use it or it's what their friends use at school or it's what they use on the job, or whatever. And to choose an NLE specifically because they want to work with footage from their camcorder is a plenty fine reason. But if that camcorder is a P2 camcorder, then to choose FCP because you want to work with HVX/HPX footage? That's crazy. If that was the camcorder someone expected to be using, FCP would be the last editor I'd recommend.

If someone wants to move to FCP for other legitimate reasons, go right ahead. But to move to it because you want to work with P2 footage would be the completely wrong decision, as every other editor works with the footage better and in a cross-platform-compatible way.

wait...were you replying to my post? lol, cause i was the one saying fcp was no good. maybe you were replying to someone else's

-connor

[crobs808]

Like FCP, the way it handles (or doesn't handle) MXFs natively doesn't speak to whether or not it's a "lesser" program.

no you are right, ive got a 200item laundry list of FCP features that suck, and another 200 reason premiere pro beats it out everytime in performance and intrface editing, but like i said, i dont wanna turn this into a fcp bashing thread...dont wanna offend any soccer moms or 17yr old kids in highschool who think apple is a beacon of light and lays golden eggs, lol.

-connor

[ddp]

........, but like i said, i dont wanna turn this into a fcp bashing thread...dont wanna offend any soccer moms or 17yr old kids in highschool who think apple is a beacon of light and lays golden eggs, lol.

-connor

Hate to read your posts if you were trying to turn it into a bash-fest.......:shocked:

[crobs808]

no, i am trying not to, thats why im not posting all the negative things i could easily say about FCP....ppl are gonna use whatever they want, so why post about it. its useless. see, im avoiding bashing, not causing it.

-connor

[ddp]

Kind of like "defensive threading":Drogar-Dum(DBG):

[Jim Kinsey]

You know FCP may have its issues but man I haven't had the blue screen of death for over 5 years now and as far as operating systems go... nothing comes even close to Apple OSX. It just works. I started out on Premiere 4.5 and gave it up on 6.0 but now that it runs on a mac ( correct me if I am wrong) I may have to look at it again. A fully integrated NLE is what I would like to see in any future updates to FCP.

JK

[David S.]

Ah, but as the old saying goes: "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."

LOL.

But Barry, I also always preserve my original p2 Volumes via redundant backup.

The source stuff is always in mxf format for later retrieval.

You really should sell that iMac and FCP seat.

:)

[David S.]

but like i said, i dont wanna turn this into a fcp bashing thread...dont wanna offend any soccer moms or 17yr old kids in highschool who think apple is a beacon of light and lays golden eggs, lol.

-connor


Comments like yours that I quoted serve no purpose at all. I would venture that the greater percentage of HVX200 users are on a Mac, a guess that Barry would likely confirm.

Why alienate a whole bunch of editors on either platform. Exactly what do your comments contribute to the discussion?

[crobs808]

You know FCP may have its issues but man I haven't had the blue screen of death for over 5 years now and as far as operating systems go... nothing comes even close to Apple OSX. It just works. I started out on Premiere 4.5 and gave it up on 6.0 but now that it runs on a mac ( correct me if I am wrong) I may have to look at it again. A fully integrated NLE is what I would like to see in any future updates to FCP.

JK

lol, 5 years is all? i'm STILL on xp and havent gotten the blue screen since sp1 came out in 2002, so thats 6 years on windows, and no BSOD. if you think you would keep getting the blue screen had you stayed on xp, then there's a "user error" in play.

p.s. - premiere pro on mac is worthless, due to mac's memory hog requirements. i tried editing on premiere pro cs2 on mac (same thing i use on pc every day, day in and day out) and it was terrible. premiere pro cs2 on pc = 100% awesome, premiere pro cs on mac = worse than imovie.

-connor

[Jim Kinsey]

Conner,

I think the BSOD came from some driver issues and I was running the Matrox RT 2500 at the time. My friend Wayne Andrews ( who helped design the AXIO ) at Matrox supplied me the rt 2500 and I traded some stock footage for their reel at NAB in 2001 or 2002. Kind of funny it played right along side of Steve Irwin's ( Croc Hunters ) footage. I made the choice to try another NLE and choose Apple. So i bought a dual G5 with 4 gigs of Ram and FCP. That machine has pounded out 15 feature length shows winning 2 Silver Tellys and more. Not 1 break down ever and is currently being used to produce 13 original episodes for tv by my assistant editor. Mind you the PC machine I refer to was a pentium II 450 with 2 (10) gig western digital drives. I later upgraded the motherboard and new procerrors flip chip pentium III 850 dual and 4 gigs of ram. Lots of issues with that machine but for its time it was top of the line. Still sits in the edit bay with Photoshop, AE and some other programs. But like Barry said " his imac sits in the corner and he never touches it." I do the same with old Blue....

JK

[New_Zealand]

iMac 24" with FCS2 is what I have been eyeing for awhile (making a match for the HVX200) but maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction?

[Jim Kinsey]

New Zealand,

I say find the best solution that works for you. I use FCP but there are plenty of NLE's out there that work fine. I just bought the latest Macbook pro 17" and the Sonnet F2 fusion drive for offloading our EX1 footage and some SDE stuff. I believe that machine would be fine for the HVX200. Just pick up some external storage like a firewire 800 drive for playback of the DVCPRO HD stuff.

[New_Zealand]

What price range does the firewire 800 drive run?

[New_Zealand]

How does Lacie rate compare to others?

[Barry_Green]

iMac 24" with FCS2 is what I have been eyeing for awhile (making a match for the HVX200) but maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction?
Well, the question is what makes you want that particular combination? If your main criteria is that you think it's the best combo specifically for the HVX, I'd say that's definitely the wrong direction. But if you want FCS2 no matter what, then the iMac could work fine.

[Jim Kinsey]

New Zealand,

The triple interface 7200 rpm bus power g-drive mini works great for offloading in the field. They are a bit pricey but this is what I use. Do some research and you will find there are quite a few drives. For the iMAC combination you may want the powered version in say 500 gigs or a terabyte. For remote laptop offloading where no power is available the g-drive mini is a safe choice. check out the link below.

http://www.g-technology.com/products/G-DRIVE-mini.cfm

JK

[David S.]

That will work fine. FCP will not natively import mxf files. If that is important to you, then you can use Raylight.

It isn't to me, however. I have Raylight and don't use it with FCP.

Barry will confirm that most HVX200 users are Mac-based.

That's a lot of people going in the wrong direction.

Kinda like the sign that says "Go back, you are going the wrong way."

How does the sign know where I am going?

:)

[New_Zealand]

Barry - That was the combo that was told to me by a few people. Not really knowing PC very well or other editing softwares outside of FCP, I figure that would be the route I may have to take. I don't find FCP a very easy product to work with. I would like the best set up that would make editing film and downloading the P2 card easy. Point me in the right direction - Computer and software. I can use my Mac Laptop in the field and a PC as my workstation at home. It isn't too late to learn something new.

Jim - Thanks for the info.

[Jim Kinsey]

NZ,

No problem. I picked up a new Macpro for the office and that is my main machine for working on projects. Hooked up a 4TB Caldigit HDpro raid to it and I think I am in love.... smokes compared to anything I have ever used before. I would tend to stay in one OS and one NLE program as it may save you money without having to buy another machine /os. If you have the PC already then no worries mate! Just making sure you dont break the bank, because in this industry it can be feast and famine.

JK

[Barry_Green]

Barry - That was the combo that was told to me by a few people. Not really knowing PC very well or other editing softwares outside of FCP, I figure that would be the route I may have to take.
If you like FCP, stick with it. Just don't migrate to it thinking things will be best for P2 over there, because that's simply not the case.

For P2 integration, EDIUS and Premiere Pro CS3 are tops. For field workflow, a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot can't be beat, and will be much less expensive than a comparable Mac laptop. The Mac laptops need to use adapters like the Duel adapter, but a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot doesn't need any adapter.

The simplest, least expensive, and most integrated P2 workflow would come from a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot (Lenovo, Sony, Panasonic, etc.) running EDIUS or CS3. But that's looking at the problem from the perspective of ideal P2/HVX integration, not from any other aspect. And from that perspective I'd say an iMac/FCP is the least integrated solution.

[Jim Kinsey]

Barry and NZ,

I use a 17" 1.67 GHz powerbook G4 for my HVX200 setup. It has a 100gig 7200 rpm drive for the OS and a built in PCMIA slot for off loading the P2 cards without an adapter. NZ you can pick one up on ebay for $750-$1,000. It may not be the fastest but I have had no problem playing back DVCPROHD 1080 30P with this and a firewire 800 G-tech mini hooked up. I am running the latest FCP 6.0.3 a of last night on this machine. You wont be running Color on it but this is strictly a run and dump machine where I play back single layer of HD for reviewing footage only. I mean last weekend I spent all day shooting stock footage for Artbeats and myself without a hitch. Loaded the P2 cards into the PCMIA slot and copied to the g-tech then unmounted the P2 card. Shot some nice stuff then dumped from the FW drive to the main system back at the studio. Love the HX200 colors there hard to beat out of the box.

Don't get me wrong this is what I use and am only referring to what I have bought and payed for but this laptop has been a work horse for my for over 3 years now. Not 1 problem yet.... nock on my NLE desk for luck. Seems the PC laptops are cheaper if you want to offload P2 files.

[New_Zealand]

Thanks to the both of you. I'm guessing you guys are in Sunny Vegas for the NAB which I wish I was! Wife and I was going to come down but the airfare was well over 1k and that was with a buddy pass.

I head to New Zealand in August. I was thinking of a laptop to download field footage and a home base unit (kept in Alaska) for my main editing but thoughts have been changed; Since I'm so far away it is best that I do most of my editing in NZ just in case I have to do some pick-up shots.

I was thinking of the HP Pavilion HDX9010 20.1" Laptop w/4GB memory and 500 GB Hard disk Cap. Any feed back on this setup?

[Jim Kinsey]

Yeah I leave Montana in the morning and by 1:30pm I am in Vegas. Looking forward to a great show this year. If I told you how much my round trip air fare was you wouldn't believe it. $169.00 allegiant air has really cheap tickets. Anyway staying at a friends house to. We are talking Vegas on a shoe string. More money to spend on gear. As far as the PC goes Barry is the man and can give you feed back in the PC dept.

JK

P.S. I am headed to NZ next May to film and host a show near Queens-town. Had a great time filming there in 06 when they were working on the film 10,000 BC. Got to see some serious Gyro setups for the aerials they shot in the Southern Alps.

[New_Zealand]

Jim - when you say next May are you talking about 2009? Haven't been to the South Island yet but know the North Island pretty well. Stay in Gisborne area mostly but have filmed in Thames, Piha Coast Line, Browns Bay, Auckland etc....

[Brian G]

Enjoyed reading this forum from time to time, quite a few characters here I must say. Looking into purchasing the HVX200 after 2 years of waiting, waiting for what you ask? Well, to convince my wife I need this thing of course:)
I read in this thread there could be drawbacks in regards to P2 workflow in FCS. I was considering purchasing CS3 Production Premium instead (I already have CS3 Extended ) So this is not such a big deal to move from Final Cut Express which doesnt support DVCPRO anyhow, I would have to buy FCS. What's also concerning to me as mentioned earlier in this thread there could be some issues in regards to the Mac (I have a MacBook Pro 17, 2g Ram) in which Premier would not run as efficient as FCS. Is this really the case? Are render times longer with a Premier/Mac combination than a Premier/Windows Xp combination?
If you or anyone could clarify a bit more it would help. Please explain the need for additions etc. for the Mac in order to bring in mxf files. I really like the idea of having Adobe After Effects in the Premier Production package as I am already Photoshop learned and want more.


Also, for one just starting out on the HVX200 would you suggest your books or the DVD's should I have to make a choice to start out with?
Thanks for your help
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you like FCP, stick with it. Just don't migrate to it thinking things will be best for P2 over there, because that's simply not the case.

For P2 integration, EDIUS and Premiere Pro CS3 are tops. For field workflow, a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot can't be beat, and will be much less expensive than a comparable Mac laptop. The Mac laptops need to use adapters like the Duel adapter, but a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot doesn't need any adapter.

The simplest, least expensive, and most integrated P2 workflow would come from a Windows laptop with a PCMCIA slot (Lenovo, Sony, Panasonic, etc.) running EDIUS or CS3. But that's looking at the problem from the perspective of ideal P2/HVX integration, not from any other aspect. And from that perspective I'd say an iMac/FCP is the least integrated solution.

[Piero]

Hello Im having some problems I just bought a new macbook pro i have quictime pro latest version instaled but i cant see my quicktimes that have been exported in hd from a 720 secuence Where can i download the 720 codec for quicktime

[David S.]

Hello Im having some problems I just bought a new macbook pro i have quictime pro latest version instaled but i cant see my quicktimes that have been exported in hd from a 720 secuence Where can i download the 720 codec for quicktime

You cannot download the DVCProHD codecs.

Those are only installed by Final Cut Studio

[erich@HEKURAFILMS.COM]

Hi, i'm having some problems. I created some quicktimes in FCS with P2 footage. I can see them in my mac, but i can't see them in others macs. Any idea, why i can not read these QT in other macs?

[Barry_Green]

Because those quicktime files will only work on a Mac that has Final Cut Studio installed.

[elapheysal]

I have learned a ton from this thread. Thank you very much. But these last comments are interesting to me. I just purchased a Macbook Pro from the University and couldn't resist the price of $1,600 for the 2.5 GHz intel Core 2 Duo - 2 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM. I got it also because my Powerbook did not play back the DVCPro HD clips (white). But now I have run into the problem of them not playing again (black). I have just Final Cut Pro 5.0 installed on my computer - Do I need the whole FCP Studio to playback and ultimately edit the DVCPro HD clips (of course on my MacBook Pro)?