24pn strobing look disturbing

[ajmax]

when I shoot 720 24pn and I make slow pans and tilts. The strobing look to the image is disturbing.

How can I stop this? Is it a shutter solution? If so, what number?
I hat not to shoot in 720 24pn because of one or two pans that have this problem...

[jbblunck]

In his book on the HVX, Barry Green includes a pan speed chart adapted for the HVX from the American Society of Cinematographers. The chart gives pan speeds across 90 degrees at 24 and 30 fps. Basically, the longer the lens, the slower the pan to avoid strobing. Slower shutter speeds or higher frame rates can mitigate the problem as well.

This is an issue as old as filming itself. Aside from controlling the speed of the pan, the easiest way to minimize the problem is to pan along with a moving object. The eye's attention will follow the object and never notice the strobing of the background.

[ajmax]

where can i get the book?
the pans are usually slow and ususally are a problem with static objects, like a building or a wall,,,etc...

[jbblunck]

Of course stationary objects are what strobe...

Link to book:

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hvxbook/

Google it -- you can find it for sale in a variety of places.

[ajmax]

I can't spend $89 to find out the answer to one question...
Can you help?
Thanks

[Robert Lane]

First, find a way to afford the $89; the book has tons of "how to" info and will help you avoid the "gotchas".

Second, in a thread I posted on another forum I did a series of tests comparing motion in video cameras vs. film, specifically with the HVX200 and HPX500. Turns out, the output from the HVX/HPX @ 24p has more motion blur than an actual film using *similar* focal lengths.

If you're not in a tele-cine or film-transfer workflow, shoot in 30p rather than 24p in the HVX; the motion blur (caused either by moving objects or camera movement) will actually look more like a film camera does.

Remember that video cameras do not have a physical shutter inside, so they have to use software and chipset trickery to simulate shutter effects. That simulation varies from model to model and isn't perfect, however the Varicam @ 24p replicates motion blur much more accurately than the HVX - and it should considering the price-tag.

Get Barry's book, it's an investment worth ten-times the cost.

[ulisses]

Watch blockbuster movies and you'll see the same strobe in pans / tilts / handheld camera, cranes, travellings, etc
That is how 24P is for all the industry.
Many TV shows are shot in 60P, what smooths that.
Change your mind or record in 60i for smooth pans in video.
But remember that world is moving to progressive TV's.

Ulisses

[David Jimerson]

If you're not in a tele-cine or film-transfer workflow, shoot in 30p rather than 24p in the HVX; the motion blur (caused either by moving objects or camera movement) will actually look more like a film camera does.

I can't say as I agree . . . 30p and 24p are not the same, and 24p looks more like 24 fps film. If you want 24p, the solution is to shoot 24p and learn to work with it.

Aimax, it sounds like you're still moving the camera too quickly. You may think you're moving it slowly, but it actually needs to be slower than you'd think, and the longer your lens (the more zoomed in you are), the slower you have to move it to avoid the strobe -- or at least the unwanted strobe. (You need a little bit in order for it to look cinematic.)

[Barry_Green]

Here's the simplest rule for panning speed: an object should take 7 seconds to cross the screen. If it moves faster than that, it's gonna strobe.

Or, even simpler, just look in your monitor -- you'll see it happening. Either slow down so that the strobing doesn't happen, or speed up so that you get the pan over with as quickly as possible (a whip pan) and nobody'll see or notice the strobing.

[THoff]

Depending on when and where you bought the camera, you may be eligible for a free copy of the book (plus a whole lot more):

HVX Promotion (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SpecialOffersForModel?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=93120&surfModel=AG-HVX200)

[cheezweezl]

welcome to true 24p.

learn to pan slower or to love the stobe look. or if you must pan quick, try a 1/24 shutter. will add more motion blur and make your image a little softer but helps with strobing and low light shooting.

[THoff]

Reducing DOF also helps if you are tracking a subject during the pan by rendering the background out of focus.

[ajmax]

Thanks Guys,,,

[mjjason]

Also, make sure the OIS is not on if shooting on a tripod.

[ajmax]

Okay guys,
here is an example of what I am talking abut the strobing.
When I am shooting, what can I set my cam to so I can eliminate the strobing on my pans while shooting 720 24pn.
click on the link and then click on the video that says pearland and play. the shot is a pan with people inside an airport. It is after a shot of a plane taking off
www.ajmaxbiz.com (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/www.ajmaxbiz.com)
Thanks,

[THoff]

That's judder -- the pan is simply too fast. The only way to smooth it out is to slow it down or increase the framerate.

[David Jimerson]

Definitely normal 24p (and 24 fps) judder. Most people will be looking at the plane, though, which is one of the tricks of hiding the judder. A shallower depth of field would have been a big help here.

[ajmax]

Thanks Guys,,,
it's the shot after the plane...
and I can not pan any slower or faster.
You mentioned frame rate. that sounds familiar form Barry's video...
What Frame rate do you recommend and do i loose audio if I use the recommended frame rate?
Thanks,,,

[Arson]

I can't spend $89 to find out the answer to one question...
Can you help?
Thanks

If you can spend $5000 on a camera and $1000 on P2 cards I'm sure you can find $89 to answer every question you will ever have about the HVX explained in plain language instead of the manual's technical style.

$89 will make you get 100% of the functionality out of your camera instead of the 10% you probably will get without it.

[ulisses]

or buy the American cinematography manual and learn how a film camera works, mainly shooting at 24F.

Ulisses

[ajmax]

So do you have an answer or not?
I am asking a question because I can't find it in the video, I already purchased.
That's why I am asking for help on this discussion board...
Why do you have to be unprofessional, just answer the question or don't answer the question.
I don't need an lecture...

[jdmoviemaker]

First, find a way to afford the $89; the book has tons of "how to" info and will help you avoid the "gotchas".

Second, in a thread I posted on another forum I did a series of tests comparing motion in video cameras vs. film, specifically with the HVX200 and HPX500. Turns out, the output from the HVX/HPX @ 24p has more motion blur than an actual film using *similar* focal lengths.

If you're not in a tele-cine or film-transfer workflow, shoot in 30p rather than 24p in the HVX; the motion blur (caused either by moving objects or camera movement) will actually look more like a film camera does.

Remember that video cameras do not have a physical shutter inside, so they have to use software and chipset trickery to simulate shutter effects. That simulation varies from model to model and isn't perfect, however the Varicam @ 24p replicates motion blur much more accurately than the HVX - and it should considering the price-tag.

Get Barry's book, it's an investment worth ten-times the cost.

Yeah , get the book.
If you just spend the money you'll find that you get what you paid for that hvx & learn how to REALLY use it.
$89 isn't that much if you want learn what all the camera really has to offer you.
Its a great buy:thumbsup:

[Indywannabe]

1080/60i or 720/60p are the only faster frame rates for normal speed

[David Jimerson]

Thanks Guys,,,
it's the shot after the plane...

Same thing.


and I can not pan any slower or faster.

Why not? You can pan at any speed between no movement at all and a whip-pan.

A slower pan will solve the problem.



You mentioned frame rate. that sounds familiar form Barry's video...
What Frame rate do you recommend

The frame rate is entirely a matter of artistic choice. If you want smoother motion, choose 30p or 60p (or 60i in 1080 or 480), but you'll lose the filmic look.



and do i loose audio if I use the recommended frame rate?

You only lose audio shooting with variable frame rates in the pN modes.

[nadalpiantini]

i have Barry's DVD's... i've lerned in 5 minuts what i didnt in two hole month's
now... my money dosnt grow on trees...but im sure the books worth it, but the question is, the book is complementary to the dvds or has the same info?

[ajmax]

Thank You Guys for your professional advice.
Since i was in a jam, you helped me solve my problem.,

Now that i am passed this situation, and when I get back from on-location, I'll be able to go over Barry's video again...

Thanks

[Barry_Green]

the same info?
Same info, just in a different medium. Some people like to have a 270-page book in their bag with them, some don't want to read and just want a comprehensive course played out in front of them.

[THoff]

1080/60i or 720/60p are the only faster frame rates for normal speedI think the material in question was 24P, so 30P would be another option, and it has 25% more temporal resolution. Last but not least, a slower shutter speed / large shutter angle could have reduced judder at the expense of increased motion blur.

[Marco.L]

the problem that i found is that i saw lots of 24p footage i didn't see nothing strobing 1/5 tham my footage is strobing.
24p film skates , cars , people running , i do very slow pans and titls and it still strobing , even in shots with no camera movements, people walking through the screen strobes too much , it is anoying me...i'm very disapointed..

[jimpatro]

Any info shared on this board is purely a product of individuals being nice enough to do so. You are not owed any kind of answer at all.
And don't speak of "professionalism" when you are definitely not a professional yourself. You can't even put together a coherent sentence.

[Ryanwar7]

Any info shared on this board is purely a product of individuals being nice enough to do so. You are not owed any kind of answer at all.
And don't speak of "professionalism" when you are definitely not a professional yourself. You can't even put together a coherent sentence.

Didn't he just say thank you? Doesn't seem to me like putting someone down for saying thank you creates much of a community feeling.

[jimpatro]

Are you kidding me? Who would put somebody down for saying "thank you"?
Did you read all his posts? Very demanding, and never said "please".
Got snarky when someone suggested he invest in a valuable tool (Barry's book).

If you dish it out you better be able to take it.

[Ted Spencer]

Strobing usually looks worse on a computer monitor than the same footage output to a TV from a DVD. I was pretty freaked too until I saw it that way.

And strobing is most definitely in evidence on conventional movie footage. I notice it all the time these days. It's all about panning speed and if the camera is following something in motion, as others have pointed out.

Most of us grew up on 60i camcorders where it wasn't a factor. 24f, on video or film, is a whole 'nother thing.

[Ted Spencer]

No one here, including Barry, has refuted Robert Lane's assertion that the HVX's 24p is more "stroby" than a film camera, or even the HPX500. Barry's book claims otherwise.

I took Robert to task at another site for reporting the same thing, citing Barry, to which he didn't reply, then months later he repeated it again here.

Is there anything to his claim? Is the HVX's 24f actually any more stroby than a film camera or an HPX500?

[wgzn]

here is a thought...

unless youre planning to transfer to film. might shootinig 60i then using any of the various and reasonably effective de-interlacing/film effect filters (nattress, magic bullet, etc...) to achieve [nearly] the same end result without as much the aforementioned strobiness be a good idea?

[David Jimerson]

here is a thought...

unless youre planning to transfer to film. might shootinig 60i then using any of the various and reasonably effective de-interlacing/film effect filters (nattress, magic bullet, etc...) to achieve [nearly] the same end result without as much the aforementioned strobiness be a good idea?

1) You'll toss away a ton of resolution by doing that.

2) It'll end up with every bit as much strobe, maybe even more because you'll be tempted to move the camera too quickly when shooting 60i.

[David Jimerson]

No one here, including Barry, has refuted Robert Lane's assertion that the HVX's 24p is more "stroby" than a film camera, or even the HPX500. Barry's book claims otherwise.

I took Robert to task at another site for reporting the same thing, citing Barry, to which he didn't reply, then months later he repeated it again here.

Is there anything to his claim? Is the HVX's 24f actually any more stroby than a film camera or an HPX500?

(It's 24p, not 24f. 24f is a Canon thing.)

I have not seen a difference in 24p strobe between the 200, the 500, or the DVX100, and I've worked with thousands of hours of footage.

[DCP]

I just finished my feature (using 720 24pN) and aside from a few fast motions in the film I've rarely noticed any strobing (very minimal at best) and I used dolly's and cranes. Of course we avoided quick pans and we would follow a subject but trust me, I am one of those people who worried and when I watched previews on a 20 foot screen I was pleased.

Todd

[Barry_Green]

Is there anything to his claim? Is the HVX's 24f actually any more stroby than a film camera or an HPX500?
On the original DVX DVD I took a DVX100 and a CP16/R film camera, side by side, and shot all sorts of strobing/panning tests at equivalent field of view. I defy anyone to discern any difference whatsoever between the motion of the film camera, and the motion of the 24P video camera.

[Ted Spencer]

Well there we have it then. We'll see if Robert wants to defend his claims this time...

[Ted Spencer]

[QUOTE=David Jimerson;1316790](It's 24p, not 24f. 24f is a Canon thing.)

I just meant "f" as an abbreviation for frame, not any manufacturer's nomenclature.