35mm film camera options?

[Barmack]

1.What is the best 35mm film camera that i can buy with 1-$2k and

2.what are my sound options?

I want to use it to record a Documentery.
nothing professional just for learning.
but i do want it to look as professional as i can make it.
3.I will be recording outside in the daylight and indoors.

4.I also don't care if the 35mm film camera is noisy i care about the picture quality of film the most.

it has been really hard for me to find konvas 35mm cameras off of eBay. well i did find them but there over priced and on top of that don't even work.

[SonicStates]

Can't help with the camera question but let me know about your sound budget and I might be able to help.
A couple of my favourite mics to use in the field are the Sanken Cs-3e shotgun for mono and a Rode NT4 for stereo acquisition. Sanken is pricey if your camera budget is 2K for a camera but check out Rode. Exceptional mics for really reasonable prices!
I primarily do sound design and acquisition but recently I got myself an HVX and have been really impressed...the FireStore 100 really helps too.
I hope this helps.

[Erik Olson]

Arri 2C is a solid performer, but not even that can be had for what you want to spend. You're not likely going to get anything more than an Eyemo for less than $2k.

16mm you might do a shade better with Arri 16BL, 16S/B/M, Canon Scoopic, Eclair ACL/NPR, Bolex.

e

[Mattykins]

I would personally look into 16mm.

35 is very expensive. As is 16. But 16 is cheaper.

Mind you, recording inside and in daylight is not the camera - but the film stock. Take for instance most of Kodaks stocks. They are tungsten balanced, so in order to shoot outside in daylight without the blue cast you need an 85B filter on the camera. Most of Fuji's stocks are Daylight Balanced. Like the Reala stocks.

For a 400 foot core of 16mm colour reversal you are going to be talking about 140 dollars per roll. At 24FPS that works out to about 12 and a half minutes of footage. Not to mention shooting a framing chart and a chip chart. So you will have about 11 and a half minutes to shoot.

Then you need to do the processing and the telecine on the footage which will cost a lot of cash as well. Around 150 for a 400 foot core.

Side costs aside...you won't be able to touch a 35mm camera for 1k. A new bolex (16mm wild motor) will run you about 2k itself.

Moving up in the scale you have the Aaton LTR - 16,000 for body and lens. (crystal sync motor)

Then you have the Aaton XTR Prod coming in at 90,000. Of course Panavision and whatnot.

Film is very specific. If you are looking to learn consider trying 16mm black and white...TriX Reversal isn't too expensive for a 100 foot daylight spool which will give you two minutes ish.

Sound will need to be recorded off camera and synced later. So you need a slate and a sound recordist. And you need to make sure the camera is a crystal sync camera. If it's a wild motor - like the bolex...you aren't really recording at 24FPS. You are slightly off especially as the wind runs out. So syncing with a wild motor is very difficult.

It all depends on the camera.

Any other questions, ask. I shoot film most of the time still - mostly 16mm.

-Matt

[dory_breaux]

Ont learn on 35. Just dont. Find a used super16 (or even regular16) cam and just start shooting black and white short ends.

[Barmack]

alright. ill go for the 16 since you guys know way more then me. i saw a Canon Scoopic 16m(macro) for 900. ill try and bargain the guy down to 750. then ill just go with $1000 of different films. where can i buy film from?

funny thing the 35mm crank movie cameras are like $600 on ebay.....

as for audio I gues i should just focus on video and tape my documentary on miniDV. lol.

A site like this is rare and thanks for all the fast replies dory,matt,olsen,sonic.

[Erik Olson]

To a great extent, the quality of the glass you put on whatever camera you choose is the more important purchase. Camera movements are, for the most part, very much alike from one model to the next. Better ones will have refined registration and gate mechanisms (to reduce breathing) and features like jam shut-down levers. The Arri and Eclair models will accept 200', 400' and longer loads in their accessory magazines.

100' spools will do little more than frustrate you as you'll be changing film (albeit on convenient daylight spools) constantly.

Crystal sync motors will allow you to achieve sync sound, though every camera we've discussed in this thread would need to be in booth or blimped for synchronous sound production - they'll all be L O U D.

Select the highest quality lens you can afford, make certain the coatings are in good shape and that the barrels function smoothly.

e

[Mattykins]

The Bolex is insanely loud. It makes sync sound impossible. It only accepts the 100 foot daylight spool load.

However, the Aaton LTR and XTR Prod run silent. As well as the arri's and of course the panivision's. They run perfectly silent.

And 16mm film is the same for both super 16 and standard. It is within the camera. Super 16 (Aaton XTR prod) is the letterbox widescreen.

Film I purchase directly from Kodak or Fuji. If you want to shoot black and white, go with the Tri-X Reversal. It is a good film. For color, really anything in the vision II series will do you well. Mind you, after the purchase of the film - you also need to process and telecine it. Which will cost you a fair amount.

And if the camera accepts core loads. Which need to be loaded in loading bags in total darkness, that same camera cannot accept a spool load. The loading mechanisms are different for the spool and the core load.

You might want to look into trying to buy a dummy load. I have no idea where you would get one of those. But practicing loading is a must. It is extremely particular. Insofar as you need to physically count the number of frames to make the loops. Like the Aaton LTR need 14 and 1/2 frames in the loop - else it will jam...and that isn't good.

So, when you buy the camera, research into it for sure. Different cameras have different additions - such as video assist and whatnot.

Best of Luck

[seunosewa]

If you're going to use 16m you might as well use HDV and get better quality.

[jmega]

If you're going to use 16m you might as well use HDV and get better quality.

HAHA



you could always rent an arri, or an aaton for a day and see which one you like working with better.

[Erik Olson]

The Bolex is insanely loud. It makes sync sound impossible. It only accepts the 100 foot daylight spool load.

However, the Aaton LTR and XTR Prod run silent. As well as the arri's and of course the panivision's. They run perfectly silent.

And if the camera accepts core loads. Which need to be loaded in loading bags in total darkness, that same camera cannot accept a spool load. The loading mechanisms are different for the spool and the core load.


In his original post, he talks about his budget, which eliminates everything in your response from the table.

The Eclair ACL (~32dB) isn't nearly as quiet as the Aaton XTR (~20dB $$) and the Arri cameras in his price range absolutely are not quiet cameras (~42dB).

Again, he is looking to purchase, so Panavision is out of the question. If you could buy one (and you cannot), it would cost into the hundreds of thousands for their only 16mm - the wonderful Elaine.

Also, the Arri S (not M or BL) definitely take daylight spools and cores. As an owner, I can attest to the fact that the main body takes 100' daylight spools and the mags take 200' and 400' and larger cores. FACT.

e

[Mattykins]

You specifically mention EVERY camera we mentioned above was L O U D. Look back. :)

I was talking about his options for cameras that exist. Like I said - like everyone said, there isn't much in his price range if he is looking for something that can be used run and gun along with sync sound. Even recording with a DV camera the audio will still incur the sounds of the cameras rolling, and he would need to sync those, and without the crystal sync...it's next to impossible. Yes, I have tried. Yes, after spending hours and numerous ADR sessions we got it to work.

Yes, The Panavisions are only available for rent. I know that. I've worked with Panavisions before. I am not familiar with the Arri's, or at least the older arri's. I have heard very good things about the Arriflex 416. The Aaton's however only accept core loads. As I have worked with the LTR, XTR, XTR Prod, since they are all magazine loads.

I apologize for talking about other cameras that are available. Not that this doesn't happen when someone says I want a good camera. And people spew in different packages. I recommended the bolex - which is 16mm, and can be purchased (used) within his price range. The bolex, as mentioned, is a wild motor. Unless I am extremely mistaken the Bolex only accepts 100 foot spool loads.

[Barmack]

well. i've been thinking long and hard... and decided that i am willing to spend 6k for a cam. The way that i see it, is if I'm gonna buy a film movie camera. then it might as well be a decent one. Its gonna cost me 2 months of pay checks. but im 19 so ill live. hahahaha. :2vrolijk_08:

And if i decide to buy a 16mm then here is the one ill get within the month.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Minty-Bolex-EMB-16mm-Camera-with-accessories_W0QQitemZ160222307493QQihZ006QQcategor yZ4691QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and my other option was that canon scoopic M series...
so hopefully I can get a crystal sync 35mm for around 6k with decent gear....right???

I really cant explain it im falling in love with film and i havnt even shot anything with it yet. :love4:

[Mattykins]

Don't mind the bickering about cameras.

Really, film is amazing. There is no comparison. Expensive as anything. But fun none the less. And hey, getting started early is the best. I am young as well.

And yeah, you should be good with 6k. Best of luck shooting!

[Barmack]

haha thx,
too excited for my own good.

[flinty]

If you're going to use 16m you might as well use HDV and get better quality.
too true ,film is fairy tail look thats why a lot like it.wolf creek filmed with video as good as any celluloid look.

[Erik Olson]

Crystal sync motors will allow you to achieve sync sound, though every camera we've discussed in this thread would need to be in booth or blimped for synchronous sound production - they'll all be L O U D.

e

I was kinda referring to the cameras I'd listed. You indicated brands, not so much models. So, yes, Arri certainly made / makes very quiet cameras as does Aaton and Panavision. But it is a moot point, because he simply cannot afford the least expensive of these - which would be something like an Arri SR or the like.

Perhaps an Eclair with a barney? Maybe.

Let's stay on the topic of helping him with specific models that will get the job done for sync sound work. The models I can think of that would do this all need to be blimped or barneyed - the ACL has the best lensed decibel specification for the money.

The S/B, which would be my personal choice because of the number of good, working cameras, accessories and spares has the highest noise level. Unless completely blimped.

I'd say even the electronic version of the Bolex is out of the picture for sound work.

e

[Erik Olson]

You specifically mention EVERY camera we mentioned above was L O U D. Look back. :)



Answered above.


I was talking about his options for cameras that exist. Like I said - like everyone said, there isn't much in his price range if he is looking for something that can be used run and gun along with sync sound. Even recording with a DV camera the audio will still incur the sounds of the cameras rolling, and he would need to sync those, and without the crystal sync...it's next to impossible...

Run and gun was the strong point of most of these 16mm cameras - at least run and gun in their day! Remember, most of these were news cameras. If you were around in the last century, you might've seen nightly newscasts that actually had filmed segments from the field. These cameras were all designed for three-man crews - a reporter, cameraman and sound recordist. They absolutely were run and gun!

Your statement about DV sound interference from the camera is just plain wrong. I've never had noise in my sound from the camera - not even with the loud zoom motor on an HVX. :happy: [EDIT] Okay, this was a generalization. I have heard the very noisy (still less than 20dB by a mile) F900 in my return phones on several occassions. Noisy Sony! Their cheap HDV and solid-state cameras do not exhibit this "feature". [EDIT]


...I have heard very good things about the Arriflex 416. The Aaton's however only accept core loads. As I have worked with the LTR, XTR, XTR Prod, since they are all magazine loads.

This is a good discussion - about excellent cameras - I was only stating that the op was looking for realistic options.


...I recommended the bolex - which is 16mm, and can be purchased (used) within his price range. The bolex, as mentioned, is a wild motor. Unless I am extremely mistaken the Bolex only accepts 100 foot spool loads.

The Bolex absolutely comes with a sync motor in the EBM. It is an electronic camera with variable framerates. It certainly takes 400' mags and, again, takes daylight spools like the Arri models I indicated.

Since he seems interested in the EBM, I would strongly suggest he research blimping the lump. Also, the one he has indicated states that the lens coveres the S16mm frame - the gate does not appear to be modified for S16. It is a notable point that this camera is likely standard 16mm aperture (1.33:1)! There are EBMs that have been modified and fitted with appropriate viewfinders and optically shifted for S16 use - just make certain you communicate specifically on this point with the seller!

Good luck!

e

[Barmack]

...models I can think of that would do this all need to be blimped or barneyed - the ACL has the best lensed decibel specification for the money.

The S/B, which would be my personal choice because of the number of good, working cameras, accessories and spares has the highest noise level. Unless completely blimped.

I'd say even the electronic version of the Bolex is out of the picture for sound work.

e

perfect yes. exactly im looking for best for a cam that is best for the money and respect to picture quality. if the camera sounds like an airplane no prob ill blimp it and put it under a bunch of blankets. just as long as the quality is good. better then hdv...

[Erik Olson]

Just to add another curve to this conversation, I would really be on the fence between a 16mm / S16 set-up and a better-quality 1080p camera.

Consider this...

For the money you're going to spend on the film camera, stock, processing, timing, telecine/DI, edit and output, you could get into an HVX200 on the lowest end with several 32 or 64GB cards or a nicely-accessorized HPX500 at about the same cumulative price.

With the P2 options, you need never buy raw stock or pay for anything up to the digital intermediate. An inexpensive laptop does your ingest, becoming your in-the-field telecine in better than real-time. You get to see your work on-set without a videotap. You need less crew and / or downtime for magazine loading, changes and handling.

You do all your timing work in your NLE and render out to P2 cards for your HDCam / D5 / filmout.

Nobody finishes on film anymore, so that negative simply becomes another piece of material you'll need to archive. Not something you want to drag around with you for the rest of your life.

Anyway, I'd give it serious consideration. For what you're giving up - a few stops and a little bit of colorspace - you gain a great deal in your flexibility for shooting what you want, when you want.

e

[alexberman]

For 16mm, a used CP16 with a decent lens should fall right under your budget. It's a bit of a pain to load, but otherwise a sturdy camera.

As for sound, you should really have a sound person helping you since taking slates while shooting documentary style can be very unwieldy.

[cinematical]

I've been working with film for a bit now - just know that for a good majority of your stuff, you'll have to do ADR, because most film cameras are more blenders than cameras: they're REALLY LOUD.

But, there is a certain aesthetic quality to film, and actually loading the magazine just makes you feel more attached and in-sync with the footage.

[Timmyjoe]

Couple of things.

First, I'm not going to argue about which looks better, film or video, we all have our own opinions on that. But keep in mind that shooting film is very different than shooting video. After your camera is purchased, the cost of shooting video is much less than the cost of shooting film. And because of this, a tendency develops with shooting video where the production will shoot many takes and adapt an attitude of "tape is cheap so what the heck, shoot alot." This doesn't always lead to the best results. Because the cost of shooting film is higher (when including film purchase, processing, and telecine), productions tend to shoot more carefully, which many times leads to better results.

And second, even with a noisy camera like the Arriflex 16S, if you use a blimp (like the one I am selling in the marketplace (free plug)), you can really lower the camera noise to the point of not needing to do ADR. A little SoundSoap or other audio editing software can remove the little that is left of the camera noise.

http://www.arri16s.com/Assets/images/Sales/Blimp/Blimp.jpg

ARRI Lightweight Fibre Glass Blimp 16 for sale (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=130443)

Best,
-Tim