Need Some Advice About Switching to the EX1

[Ben_McElroy]

I'm contemplating switching from my HVX to an EX1.
The HVX is a hog with light and when using my Redrock M2 it's a nightmare.
SxS seams pretty reliable.
The only concern is the rolling shutter on the EX1 is that a real problem for folks?

Anyone come from an HVX that could lend their opinion.
Thank you

[matthew77]

I came from an HVX and haven't looked back (It's dark, noisy and blocky back there).

The rolling shutter issue is real - and it is a problem for a certain (well documented on this site) situations and should not be downplayed. But personally it has given me no grief for the type of work I do.

Just beautiful images from my EX1.

[Barry_Green]

In 1080/24p mode the light difference is about 1/2 a stop. It's better, but don't expect it to solve your M2 nightmare. You'll notice a much bigger difference if you replaced your M2 with something like a Letus Extreme or Brevis; that way you go from about 2 stops lost, down to 1/2 a stop lost.

[matthew77]

In 1080/24p mode the light difference is about 1/2 a stop

Matching noise levels on the cameras (using gain on the EX1 or boosting exposure in post) the light difference is closer to three stops.

[Barry_Green]

No, it isn't. I'll give you 1.5, but three stops is just silly. :)

[matthew77]

1.5 stops is still significant when it comes to adapters - it's the difference between a usable shot vs. unusable at the low end.

But I still think it's higher by my visual comparison.

And matching noise levels is the fairest way to compare the sensitivity of cameras. If you are willing to tolerate the noise, you could get another couple of stops out of any camera, so what does sensitivity mean, after all, without considering noise? The same has always held true when trying to accurately rate the ISO of film stocks.

[Ben_McElroy]

Barry, how do you feel about the rolling shutter problem?

Check this video out
http://www.freshdv.com/mjeppsen/video/ex1_strobe_cmos_rolling_shutter_artifact.mov
That was shot with the EX1

[Stevet]

Ben,
I'm sure you did not surprise Barry with that shot. ;)

I'm sure you will find no one that likes that rolling shutter issue.

If you plan of shooting these shots, do not use a CMOS rolling shutter camera.

[matthew77]

Barry, how do you feel about the rolling shutter problem?


That's pretty funny.

[Barry_Green]

In summation, I think the rolling shutter is the single most concerning thing to happen to video cameras since the very first HDV long-GOP format. And I say that because there are shooters out there who are going to get SCREWED by it (just like they could get totally hosed by HDV). And most of those shooters have no idea of the ticking time bomb that's going to go off when they least expect it. And that isn't right, which is why I've been such a loudmouth about trying to educate people as to the issues!

But, with that said, if you fully understand what it is and what kind of shots it prevents you from getting, then it can be made to work and in the right circumstances rolling shutter cameras can get lovely footage too.. Just be well aware that it can royally screw you over and, as SteveT says, don't shoot those shots. If you need a camera that can shoot every type of shot, you don't want a rolling shutter, plain and simple.

[Stevet]

And most of those shooters have no idea of the ticking time bomb that's going to go off when they least expect it.

I find that the word "most" is VERY hard to believe. Especially, for investments such as the RED ONE which total easily over $30,000.00!

The same for the EX1 at $7,000.00. It's not like joe blow is going to the corner store and buying this camera. Now the HV20 at Circuit City for $720, that's a different story.

Having said that, I agree, you really need to know where these cameras fail performing.

[Ben_McElroy]

Thanks.. I just picked up an EX1 today, and I love this camera.. Any one need an HVX?

[doondoon]

I'm contemplating switching from my HVX to an EX1.
The HVX is a hog with light and when using my Redrock M2 it's a nightmare.
SxS seams pretty reliable.
The only concern is the rolling shutter on the EX1 is that a real problem for folks?

Anyone come from an HVX that could lend their opinion.
Thank you

I'm shooting a music documentary, currently in Austin at SXSW. I'm constantly finding myself in very low light situations. I've got an HVX and an EX1 with me. As soon as the sun goes down I just bag the HVX.... I kind of feel bad doing it too, sort of like I'm ignoring a good friend, but the truth is that the EX1 allows me to shoot in just about any condition. I've been gaining up to about 9db and am totally fine with the noise level. I've even done some 18db shooting (I know) and couldn't believe how it held up. don't get me wrong ... at 18db it's noisy, but nothing like what I thought it would be. that 1/2" cmos sensor is amazing.

Ultimately I think it depends on the kind of shooting you do. For run and gun verite' I think the EX1 has it all over the HVX and then some. Three main reasons:
Focus
Monitoring
Low light capability (useable)

I haven't personally experienced the rolling shutter issue on the EX1, but expect that I will sooner or later. I'm sure it'll be a bummer too... .but here's the thing, if I have to chose between the POSSIBILITY of two frames being ruined when a camera flashes by the rolling shutter OR not getting the shot at all... well then I'm going to get the shot and take my chances with rolling shutter.

I'm sure Panasonic will answer in a big way to the EX1 and I can't wait... for now though, I'm sad to say that the HVX will be the camera I reach for second to the EX1

[lawriejaffa]

I think its obvious that most shooters aren't aware of the potential probs with rolling shutters - of course most will be ignorant of it - by pure virtue of not having to deal with it before... why anyone would think otherwise is ridiculous, which is why i mantain preference for the reliable global shutter cams...

[doondoon]

I think its obvious that most shooters aren't aware of the potential probs with rolling shutters - of course most will be ignorant of it - by pure virtue of not having to deal with it before... why anyone would think otherwise is ridiculous, which is why i mantain preference for the reliable global shutter cams...

I prefer global shutters as well... but my preference for global shutters doesn't help me when there isn't enough light to get an exposure with the HVX.

[Stevet]

I think its obvious that most shooters aren't aware of the potential probs with rolling shutters - of course most will be ignorant of it - by pure virtue of not having to deal with it before... why anyone would think otherwise is ridiculous, which is why i mantain preference for the reliable global shutter cams...

It's obvious, how's that?
I think most who own the EX1 is aware of CMOS rolling shutter issues.

I find it really hard to believe someone drops $7,000.00 on a camera without some sort of research. They don't sell these cameras at Walmart.

[lawriejaffa]

lol well how grossly optimistic you are then stevet ;)

Hey doondoon well your doing just what you should mate - the right cam for the right job/conditions - heck it what i do with cams too mate!

[Stevet]

lol.... no, just common sense.

[Barry_Green]

I'd say that in my global travels training customers on their HVX200 purchases, less than 10% of the HVX200 owners I encounter have even heard of this site, or DVInfo, or Creative Cow.

I would wager that the numbers are about equivalent for EX1 buyers, and I'd say the percentage is grossly lower for HV20 buyers.

If they're not learning about the rolling shutter here, where are they?

I stand by my statement that the vast majority of rolling shutter camcorder buyers have *no idea* that there's any such thing as a rolling shutter, or that it can impact what they can shoot.

[Stevet]

Com'on guys...

You mean to tell me if you were to buy something worth $7,000.00 you would not do the slightest research............ oh please...

[Barry_Green]

Er... Steve, by virtue of us being here the answer to that is obvious -- WE would.

Does everyone? Maybe they do some research, maybe they read magazine articles. Tell me -- aside from these forums, when have you ever heard *anything* about any issues related to "rolling shutter"? How would you even know to ask the question?

And I'm telling you, even among HVX owners, maybe only 10% of them even know that DVXUser exists. I'm sure the percentage holds for EX1 owners as well.

[Stevet]

I'm just not sure how someone discovers the EX1 without some research.

I am thinking the interent, or word of mouth from another videographer associate.

[lawriejaffa]

Well SteveT id say by far most folk won't know about rolling shutter issues - why would they? Its precisely prosumer cams that are probably the least researched by buyers to be honest...

I know when i first bought my hvx - most my questions were fairl abstract, and i know for others buying new cams its def the case.

Now buying my first 2/3 chip cam, its a different ballgame altogether.

$7000 - ?!! It perhaps should make a difference - there is nobody ive heard considering an ex or hvx in scotland AT ALL whose mentioned or heard about rolling shutters (thus far!)

Perhaps surprising and no, i doubt scotland is an exception lol

[Stevet]

Yes,
I'd say the ones that don't know about the Sony EX1 also may not know about CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.
I'm not buying into the thought someone buys this camera for $7,000.00 without at least checking into it a bit.

[Noel Evans]

I'm just not sure how someone discovers the EX1 without some research.

I am thinking the interent, or word of mouth from another videographer associate.

In Australia for instance there has always been a love affair with all things Sony. Less than 1 per cent of Videographers in Australia would know this site exists, though many of those would / will jump straight over to an EX, using local research, magazine and what sales people tell them which I highly doubt would ever mention rolling shutter issue - though I am sure they would both mention the merits of CMOS technology of which there is a great deal of course.

[Stevet]

I doubt it.

Sales people? I live near the fourth largest city in the US and could not find ONE of these cameras local to check out.

If this was twenty years prior to heavy internet searching such as Google and Yahoo, I'd have to agree.

Is it possible someone could buy this on a whim based on specs, sure. I just disagree to the word most mentioned before.

[SPZ]

I agree with Barry and Noel. Over here, HK/Macau, Sony dominates, and has an excelent PR machine. People that know about the EX on the local professional camp only know about 1/2 sized chips, the high resolution of the camera, and that the camera records to solid state.

In no way Sony is going to mention the Rolling Shutter issue when selling this cam, as well as sales people. (I highly doubt they know about it, either.)

People are very confident towards Sony's professional gear. When there's no disclaimer of the disadvantages of the technology, people will have no idea these issues exist... Untill they face them.

4 years ago, I purchased a PD170 based on excelent feedback from the pd150 crowd. didn't even wait for the camera to be out topreorder and get it. I assume many happy sony users coming from the Z1/pd's would do the same.

I jumped to the HVX based on my excelent experience with the DVX. Luckily, it was the best decision I did since I started purchasing my own gear!

[lawriejaffa]

SteveT your the ultimate apolagist haha - i mean heck you have people spending way more than 7$k on stuff they don't know in and out like... cars... houses.... loads of stuff.

Its just an issue given that the technology requires a different (and less forgiving way of working) with obvious benefits for those who prefer the other advantages it can bring. But if you think 7k$ is enough to buy out ignorance then your living on another planet... here we can spend billions on badly thought public policy - so one guy not knowing even the basics of a 7k$ investment is no surprise, on the contrary its to be expected!

Likewise with my hvx, i wasnt familiar with p2 or how it really worked until id already bought it - im still learning that cam myself even now...

[Stevet]

What are you talking about....

[lawriejaffa]

Well... can't simplify it much further mate! Use your imagination before resorting to sarcasm...

[Stevet]

Still don't know what you're talking about mate ;)

I don't see the big deal here. I just don't think there is a a greater number "most" of prospective EX1 buyers that do not know about CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.
Maybe it's that I find it hard to believe most camera owners who would shell out this kind of money without doing some research.

You feel different..
No big deal...

[lawriejaffa]

Well basically,

That most folk buying their first camera don't know the ins and outs of its technology - i mean heck id be curious to see what % of folk (really) buy their first cam without even trying one out first!

Im not criticising the EX, when i say that most will not be aware that it uses technology that plays to a different set of rules in some shooting situations. I didn't know myself about rolling shutters until this forum informed me!

The other stuff i said is that folk spend loads of money all the time on stuff that they are poorly or non informed about. Numerous examples including what politicians manage to spend on poorly researched policy.... to folk buying cars for the name badge... to *drumroll* cameras too... surprisingly!

[Stevet]

Well....
I did research the EX1 for a couple months, but I could not find one in Arizona to check out. I knew about CMOS issues, but at that time no one really knew to the extent these issues were on the EX1.
There were several early reviews, but no one mentioned the extent of CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.

Now we know.... They're there and about equal to the RED ONE.

[lawriejaffa]

Yah, but i dont think the REDONE will be used as a camcorder!! Anyway im just agreeing with the need for user education and that most would be ignorant of the issue, im not laying into the EX per say on this issue. I look forward to testing one but theres not many places around here that have cams around!

[jamesewing]

I also made the switch from the HVX to the EX1. For me, having 1/2" sensors and a real lens with true focus stops made all the difference. Sharp! I also have the Letus 35 Extreme and just shot a short film with excellent results. The EX1 also handles low light much better. There is NO comparison between the EX1 LCD screen and the HVX. Night and day. I'm still learning the EX1, but I'm sold.
James

[Granville]

This may be a separate thread, but I am wondering how to get 4:2:2 from the ex.
Do you have to capture footage to another source? I am not really sure how HD-SDI works.

I am seriously considering the ex and would like to know as much as possible about it's limitations (fully realizing that it is a recent entry into the trenches). The pros (as presented on this and other forums) seem loud and clear. The rolling shutter issues are also becoming more clear, but I am not hearing any other real cons.

The XDCAM codec is a question for some as is the 4:2:0 color sampling, but due to my limited experience with post I am not sure how & where these will translate into limitations. I have not read much about the workflow out to a finished product? The idea of getting a great image and then being severely limited with grading causes me to baulk.

A number of threads have started out with some informative objective posts and quickly deteriorate into a sort of mac .vs. pc argument that goes on for a bit.

My interest is feature length documentary film and feature length dramatic film. My interest in a camera is as tool that will allow me to get work done efficiently AND that will provide the best finished product > > > Resolution, rich color, and a filmesque quality > > >I use the word filmesque because I have not seen any footage shot on video or HD that truly looks like film but I have seen some great HD and video footage that serves a story,does not distract me and has a beauty of it's own.

The footage from the ex is to my eye more appealing but I want to consider the whole work experience and the various trade-offs.

If I really cared about getting the exact look of film I would just save and save . . . and save . . . and work out a 35mm set up . . . someday.

At the end of Hearts of Darkness Coppola talks about the day when anyone can make a film with a handheld camera. I think that that day has come (a while ago).

Look at movies from Susanne Bier such as Brothers and After the Wedding. Technically on the verge of dreadful imagery but the stories are compelling and well executed so the films work.

Without meaning to, I think I just responded to all the posts I have read at once . . . OOOPS

[jay-rock]

So all this talk about the rolling shutter. What are the problems and in what situations will I have these problems. Everyone talks about it but doesnt explain.

[matthew77]

So all this talk about the rolling shutter. What are the problems and in what situations will I have these problems. Everyone talks about it but doesnt explain.

Cue Barry...

[Barry_Green]

http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD

[doondoon]

[QUOTE=Granville;1224625]This may be a separate thread, but I am wondering how to get 4:2:2 from the ex.
Do you have to capture footage to another source? I am not really sure how HD-SDI works.

I am seriously considering the ex and would like to know as much as possible about it's limitations (fully realizing that it is a recent entry into the trenches). The pros (as presented on this and other forums) seem loud and clear. The rolling shutter issues are also becoming more clear, but I am not hearing any other real cons.

The XDCAM codec is a question for some as is the 4:2:0 color sampling, but due to my limited experience with post I am not sure how & where these will translate into limitations. I have not read much about the workflow out to a finished product? The idea of getting a great image and then being severely limited with grading causes me to baulk.


You can easily get 10bit 4.2.2 out of HD-SDI on the back of the camera.
You need a Macbook Pro with FCP, a AJA ioHD http://www.aja.com/html/products_Io_IoHD.html
and a hard drive which will capture via the express card.

This set up is really only practical when you have a helping hand or plenty of time or you're on set and have a sort of DIT / Capture person manning the station. It's certainly not for run and gun documentary... for run and gun use the SXS cards in HQ mode. I'll bet you won't be disappointed with the quality.

The quality via HD-SDI is amazing. IMO unmatched by any other camera in it's price range.

As far as 4.2.2 vs. 4.2.0 goes... well I think that's very subjective. For documentary type work...personally I would rather have the extra latitude, high resolution focus/monitoring and low light capability of the EX1. My reasoning is that I get way more usable footage in most any lighting situations with these features. Without them, I miss shots.. period. Sure the footage might not be as colorful IF you did a side by side comparison with 4.2.2 footage, but you would also notice other characteristics in a side by side comparison where the EX1 shines in a many other ways that might make the 4.2.2 color space a bit moot. Also, I question peoples ability to see 4.2.2 color space consistently... I'm sure there would be a fair amount of people who would fail the "pepsi test" if put to it.

When I've shown EX1 footage to experienced producers/directors they're always very very excited. None of them have complained about the color-space, long GOP recording or the 35mbit bandwidth. I think people get HDV and XDCAM a little mixed up. They're NOT the same. Sure they both employ Long GOP (which is almost a dirty word at this point)... but the results from the two formats are dramatically different. Things have changed.

In terms of grading the footage I've had nothing but success. I always cut / grade in a 10bit Apple ProRes HQ timeline regardless of the acquisition codec (XDCAM or DVCPRO). Grading in ProRes HQ holds up just fine... you can push levels and colors all around... and it looks beautiful on a big old Sony BVM CRT reference monitor.

[dalasv]

This thread is so frustrating. Everyone is offering real reasons and experience, and Stevet is just coming back with "I doubt it." That's not an argument, friend! It's just being stubborn!

[Stevet]

?
You actually need to read the thread, my response has NOTHING to do about the thread topic.

We went on a tangent whether the CMOS shutter issue is well known to possible prospective buyers, it has NOTHING to do with "Need Some Advice About Switching to the EX1" from an HVX..... nothing.

Having said that if anything, we should not of stole the thread.............

[chagchag]

422 vs 420..... Well, there is only one camera that offers 422 in this price-segment, and that is the HVX.

If you compare the HVX 422 to the 420 of the EX, you realise that the EX is far superior to the HVX's low-res upscaled and noisy picture qualitywise, in both keying and grading. I'm saying qualitywise, because some may prefer characteristics in one camera over the other, due to personal preferences, but if you by quality means sharpness, amount of grain and latitude then there is really no debate.

I'd say, the dvcpro-hd on the HVX is more or less a waste due to the low resolution of the ccd, 1gb per minute is ridicoulus for the quality you get.

AND this needs to be repeated: higher chromasample rates are first and foremost an issue when it comes to chromakeying. For grading, not so much - noise is a much bigger problem in that department.


And yeah, I own a HVX and have done side by side comparison. The only reason I'm not switching is the rolling shutter.


EDIT: I forgot to point out, that the EX does in fact key much better than the HVX despite it's 420 (since the overall image quality is so much sharper).

[Jim Kinsey]

I guess I never " switched " just added another tool, to the arsenal of "story telling"...Most of the footage I shoot is outdoors under natural light. I also own the hvx200 and have since June of 2006 and I love it to. If your shooting musc vid's and " bad boy what ya going to do when they come for you" then rolling shutter could really mess up your show but here in Montana its just nothing but Big Sky all around.

JK

[Carl Marxx]

I guess I never " switched " just added another tool, to the arsenal of "story telling"...Most of the footage I shoot is outdoors under natural light. I also own the hvx200 and have since June of 2006 and I love it to. If your shooting musc vid's and " bad boy what ya going to do when they come for you" then rolling shutter could really mess up your show but here in Montana its just nothing but Big Sky all around.

JK

Have you ever shot a rolling shutter in Montana?:2vrolijk_08:

[Jim Kinsey]

I will be tomorrow....

JK

[Kholi]

422 vs 420..... Well, there is only one camera that offers 422 in this price-segment, and that is the HVX.

If you compare the HVX 422 to the 420 of the EX, you realise that the EX is far superior to the HVX's low-res upscaled and noisy picture qualitywise, in both keying and grading. I'm saying qualitywise, because some may prefer characteristics in one camera over the other, due to personal preferences, but if you by quality means sharpness, amount of grain and latitude then there is really no debate.

I'd say, the dvcpro-hd on the HVX is more or less a waste due to the low resolution of the ccd, 1gb per minute is ridicoulus for the quality you get.

AND this needs to be repeated: higher chromasample rates are first and foremost an issue when it comes to chromakeying. For grading, not so much - noise is a much bigger problem in that department.


And yeah, I own a HVX and have done side by side comparison. The only reason I'm not switching is the rolling shutter.


EDIT: I forgot to point out, that the EX does in fact key much better than the HVX despite it's 420 (since the overall image quality is so much sharper).

Nice. That's what I gathered, as well. 4:2:2 is wasted on the low resolution and noisey hardware.

[lawriejaffa]

Ich well id have to disagree, i think the 4:2:2 and the HD Dvc pro codec makes the key difference to me, than the long GoP codec of the EX. I've still to see footage with the same organic colour and colour detail as the HVX!

We're all entitled to our opinions however...

[DeeZiD]

The EX1 should have the same chroma resolution as the HVX. So there shouldn't be any difference.


EX1: 1920x1080 Full raster 3xCMOS, but Long-Gop and 4:2:0 (makes 960x540 Chroma)

HVX200: 960x540 3xCCD, Intra Frame, 4:2:2 (960x540 chroma)


Am I wrong?


And sorry, I haven't seen any native HVX200 720p or even 1080p material to compare with. But the EX1 looks organic, too (at least with the right settings). Compared to the A1 there are worlds between the A1 hdv and EX1 longgop codec.


regards Dennis

[DeeZiD]

Well here's a screengrab with a red car and red/magenta lights in it.
The lower chroma resolution is easily visible - at least with virtualdub but not in any other video player I've tested (VLC, Mplayer, WMP and Zoomplayer).


http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1707/vdub0hx4.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vdub0hx4.jpg)

[doondoon]

I just screened some footage that I shot on an EX1 at FotoKem in Los Angeles. The footage was projected through a $400,000 state of the art 2K projector that is used in unison with a Master Reference quality Sony BVM CRT monitor & a DaVinci color grading suite.

We pushed the colors around and I never thought, nobody in the room thought, "oh the 4:2:0 colorspace just can't handle it". It looked like CineAlta footage. period.

[lawriejaffa]

Meh. Period!

Its all subjective anyway - look important thing is that they can all look good enough i their chosen applications!

Frustratingly enough theres yet an EX to test in Scotland yet lol but soooon my pretty's...

[doondoon]

Meh. Period!

Its all subjective anyway - look important thing is that they can all look good enough i their chosen applications!

Frustratingly enough theres yet an EX to test in Scotland yet lol but soooon my pretty's...

lawriejaffa.

You certainly have a strong opinion of the EX1 considering you have never tested one.
Hopefully you can get your hands on one soon.

I agree with you though. It is totally subjective.
Having said that, camera companies do play leap frog.
It's inevitable that one is going to be slightly ahead of the other for a bit before the other one takes back the lead.

Canon then Nikon. Panasonic then Sony. Red then ? Red :2vrolijk_08:

I'm just giving my two cents on the EX1, and the rest of the pocket change from the director, colorist, technician & projectionist at a major hollywood post house who have all seen more than their fare share of HVX footage (and every other format under the sun).

It was subjective as hell in that room.... and everybody really liked what they saw.

For the record I prefer the gamma curves and color of Panasonic. I own and use a couple HVX-200's. I love them. :love4:

In the near future however, I'm going to be renting them out and using an EX1 more often. The reason is that I believe the EX1 has surpassed the HVX by quite a bit.

It's not a big surprise is it?
Sony sat back and studied the HVX & the issues people had with it. Guess what they did? They addressed most of those issues.
Has every issue been addressed? NO, of course not.
Have new issues come up? YES, of course.
The question is which ISSUES do YOU want to deal with.

I guess I'm just plain tired of having the color space/gamma curve conversation when I'm looking down at my HVX LCD and can't judge focus and am underexposed by two stops. I no longer want to deal with this ISSUE anymore.

You know what... That's OK though, at least I know when I return home to review the footage all of the NOISE will be in a 4:2:2 color-space for me to fully enjoy... and since it's DVCPRO-HD frame for frame perhaps the noise will clean up nicely in Shake or After Effects.:Drogar-Happy(DBG):

If I really need the color space, I'll come out of the HD-SDI and record uncompressed to whatever codec I want... or better yet just shoot with the RED.
Hopefully the NEW HVX is announced at NAB, I'll buy one on the spot. Until then EX1

[Stevet]

Ich well id have to disagree, i think the 4:2:2 and the HD Dvc pro codec makes the key difference to me, than the long GoP codec of the EX. I've still to see footage with the same organic colour and colour detail as the HVX!

We're all entitled to our opinions however...


True, we all have our own opinions....;) If we didn't, heck we all might be driving the same car..LOL

All, I know is viewing the raw footage one after the other on a 1920x1080 monitor, I'm sure seeing a difference in noise, macro blocking in low levels, and rez.

[lawriejaffa]

Guess im lucky my hvx doesnt have as any macro blocking as urs did. But look, thats all good - we change gear exactly because there was bits that we hated in it and bits we loved in the new ones.

We're all naturally defensive about gear we love. I love the hvx, and i ain't that way about the EX but like u say doondoon still to really try one so ya never know! I wish folk would stop posting inflammatory crits (me too btw) about each others cams... that would make life on the hvx and ex sub threads here more interesting.

And Stevet at least you didn't put one of your 'sarcasm' special lols at the end of your 'im sure seeing a difference' line, are you starting to lighten up now or? hehe

[doondoon]

Guess im lucky my hvx doesnt have as any macro blocking as urs did. But look, thats all good - we change gear exactly because there was bits that we hated in it and bits we loved in the new ones.

We're all naturally defensive about gear we love. I love the hvx, and i ain't that way about the EX but like u say doondoon still to really try one so ya never know! I wish folk would stop posting inflammatory crits (me too btw) about each others cams... that would make life on the hvx and ex sub threads here more interesting.

And Stevet at least you didn't put one of your 'sarcasm' special lols at the end of your 'im sure seeing a difference' line, are you starting to lighten up now or? hehe

Hope my comments don't seem inflammatory to anyone. I'm just calling it out how I see it.:thumbsup:

[A B Hancock]

Hope my comments don't seem inflammatory to anyone. I'm just calling it out how I see it.:thumbsup:

Right on, pal. In reading this forum for months I find a couple of members here who consistently take antagonistic and clearly biased positions towards the EX-1. Jeez I'm tired of the fanboy mentality...

[lawriejaffa]

Yah well theres been a lot of that for and against just about every cam on this forum hancock! Which is a cool 2nd name to have actually!

[Elton]

Hope my comments don't seem inflammatory to anyone. I'm just calling it out how I see it.:thumbsup:

I, for one, appreciate the well-reasoned comments. You've obviously spent quality time with both cameras and don't do the fanboy thing.

With NAB around the corner, I'm sure we'll see a new round of leapfrogging from the manufacturers.

[A B Hancock]

A forum is a mature exchange of ideas--always instructive and welcomed.

The following "post" (one so very typical of the author) is cobative and infantile crap:


Yah well theres been a lot of that for and against just about every cam on this forum hancock! Which is a cool 2nd name to have actually!

I rest my case.

I'm outta here.

[thefilmaddict]

I agree with doondoon comments (EX1 vs HVX200). I've also used both cameras quite a bit. It's just my humble opinion. I am no fan boy.

[Dennis Wood]

One thing that may or may factor into your decision is how both cameras work with 35mm lens adapters. If you're using the M2, RRM does not like the EX1 yet with their adapter, and is not recommending it.

I'll give a few observations from my perspective based on experience with the Brevis used in it's flip mode.

1. The HVX200 close focus abilities and more importantly, the very flat focal plane at close ranges means this camera does extremely well with respect to edge to edge sharpness and chromatic aberration. As an adapter cam, it's much better than the EX1 with the Brevis...which may be as much as three stops faster than the M2 as a 35mm lens is stopped down to f5.6 (http://www.cinevate.com/images/lightloss.mov). Furthermore, as the camera is zoomed in further for use with our cinema lens mounts, the image sharpness edge to edge holds up extremely well.

2. The EX1 may be a stop more senstive, however its close focus ablities, like many Sony cams, is not great news for adapter use. At this point, using the EX1 zoomed in less than Z70 is working great for our users, and we're working on a very innovative fix so cinema lens mounts (smaller frame) will be usable with sharp edge to edge performance. Replacing the achromat to get the camera zoomed in less is another solution being used by another manufacturer, but limits further zoom-in with sharp edge to edge. In other words, for cinema lens mount use, the EX1 is not recommended...yet.

Therefore, as cameras for use with 35mm lens adapters go these days I'd rate the HVX200 and XH-A1 a 9 out of 10, and the EX1 about an 8 out of 10. If the EX1 had a flat focal plane at zoom, I'd rate it a 10. In terms of overall resolution this clip by Carleton Holt using an EX1 is the sharpest footage I've ever seen with our adapter: http://www.cinevate.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1888

[shenwppd]

I am late in the game. Can anyone tell me what kind of shots the rolling shutter messes up? I was thinking of switching from the HVX 200 to the Sony EXDCAM EX but was not aware of this deficiency. Or Please refer me to a thread that spells out the problem.

Thanks, Steve

[matthew77]

Barry...?

[philip bloom]

what is rolling shutter?

[shenwppd]

Where can I find a good discription of the rollin shutter problem? Under what conditions does it kici in?

[shenwppd]

I was thinking of upgrading from the DVX 100B to either the HVX 200 or the Sony XDCAM EX. What would be the pro & cons of either choice? Since you've expereinced both, you would have good insight.

[matthew77]

Which has worse rolling shutter problems, the EX1 or the HVX?

[Dennis Wood]

Guys, check out www.freshdv.com (http://www.freshdv.com) and look over their review of the EX1..including demonstrations of rolling shutter issues. The HVX does not have it..it's a CCD camera. CCD's have their issues, as do CMOS chips like in the EX1. The podcast where Matt and Kendall discuss the EX1 (http://www.freshdv.com/2008/01/xdcam-ex1-hands-on-first-impressions-podcast-discussion.html) is one of the most impartial reviews I've seen and I'd strongly recommend a listen. No hype...just two professionals discussing the camera.

Btw, film cameras with the typical rotary shutter have had a form of rolling shutter from day one..just in the vertical axis. It's nothing new, and cameras like the little HV20, and mighty RED have it too.

Phil, if I didn't know better I'd say you're stirring the pot here...ha :-)

[thefilmaddict]

Dennis,

I agree that the EX1 is not perfect with 35mm adapters, but I prefer using the Brevis with the EX1 over the HVX for two big reasons:

1. The on camera Sony LCD is plenty high rez to focus a 35 mm lens (not an easy task with the HVX200)

and

2. The high resolution camera makes for very sharp 35mm footage. My HVX200 Brevis footage was a little soft. IMHO the extra resolution helps.

Speaking of the Brevis and the EX1, are you guys still working on improving the combo? Phil seems to have no issues with his Letus setup (as far as I know). Why does that setup work so well?

[Dennis Wood]

We are working on a solution to improve the EX1 performance but that said, in the charts posted by Lenny Levy a few weeks ago, the Brevis Flip/CF1Le combination looked to have the best edge to edge of the combos tested, including the Letus. Carleton Holt was one of the first to do careful testing with our flip and the EX1 and came up with this footage: http://www.cinevate.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1888 as well as some excellent tips for use with the Brevis. I forgot to mention the outstanding LCD, and yes the EX1 has produced the sharpest Brevis footage I've ever seen.

Phil is an excellent shooter and his non-flip Brevis footage is still featured on our site. I suspect that given an adapter made from a piece of wax paper and a soup can he could create great footage :-)

Our EX1 work is going very well, the goal being tack sharp edge to edge performance with both SLR and academy frame sizes. By NAB, we should have an announcement.