New idea? Liquid focusing screen

[Trapezoid]

I've been toying around with making a 35mm adapter, and trying out various materials for the focus screen-- I'll probably end up buying an Ee-S or something, but I had an interesting idea that's worth looking into.

Basically, you take two UV filters submerge them in a semi-opaque liquid, screw them together, then take them out and clean off the outsides. Instant focus screen, hardly any visible grain, and with limitless room for experimentation. Maybe.

I don't have two UV filters, unfortunately, so I haven't been able to try it properly. I fooled around with two back-pieces of some jewel CD cases. I sealed together the bottom and side edges then funneled various ratios of water mixed with milk in between the plates.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2966/img0800xt7.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0800xt7.jpg)
This here is about one cup water, one tablespoon milk. Somewhat promising, but refilling the plates was a hassle so I only tried a few mixtures.

If anybody has some filters they don't mind dunking in various liquids, I'd appreciate if you could do and document some experiments with this method.

[hungrych]

This is awesome, maybe I will try it!
-thanks

[hunter richards]

I tried that same thing using flour and water mixture. The key is the right liquid & getting the right glass.

Some future problems I can think of with this would be:

1.Cold + Hot temps. (freezing)

2.Settling of the liquid



What about trying elmers glue?

[hoarp001]

Mm interesting... You will have to make sure that whatever mixes you use are stable. Milk, having fat in it will eventually separate out and sit ontop of the water, so make sure your solution wont separate before you seal it all in.

[Trapezoid]

True, my first attempt was with water and baking powder, which separated pretty quickly. I didn't leave the water/milk in long enough to see it separate, but I guess it would eventually. Maybe shaking the UVs would help, if that happened.
I also hadn't thought about the effects of temperature, but it's such a simple preparation that you could refill the filters on set.

If anyone can think of a cloudy liquid that wouldn't separate...

[Kholi]

Now this is a really neat idea.

What about melting a lot of hot glue gun sticks and spreading a very thin layer out then cutting it to size?

You would have to avoid bubbles n'all.

[Trapezoid]

Now this is a really neat idea.

What about melting a lot of hot glue gun sticks and spreading a very thin layer out then cutting it to size?

You would have to avoid bubbles n'all.

I actually tried squishing some hot glue between plastic plates... it dries much too clear.

[lifestylefilms]

maybe put some wax in there? I don't know if this would make using a wax gg easier as I'm not too sure how it works exactly so be easy on me for that idea haha

[thekreative]

I got some great plastic from a plastic accordian file holder. Really thin milky plastic.
I't worked great till I got my LEX.

[armisiano]

I totally want to try this now, this is very exciting and interesting to me. I'm thinking two UV filters with elmers giue might do the trick, if the layer of glue is thin enough then the white of the elmers may not be a problem. Agreeing with a previous statement, bubbles would be the big thing to look out for. Hmmmm...

I think just for the hell of it I might buy 2 cheap UV filters on ebay from Hong Kong and try this out. I'll keep people posted. Keep suggesting ideas of liquids to use though, I'll probably only get one shot at this (if some sort of glue is used).

[Trapezoid]

I'd test the glue on some clear plastic first.

[FiddlerMD]

for stability, alcohol could be added to avoid freezing - another thing to watch out for is expansion of the liquid - could crack those UV filters easy

[Shibuya Oboya]

also avoid any products that could go rancid or other grossness

[FiddlerMD]

also perhaps adding some sort of gelatin base could get it to a more stable (non-settling) state

[infurno]

Its an interesting concept.

Vaseline comes to mind

[lifestylefilms]

I think a gel type substance would work better for this, such that as vaseline stated above.. you lose the possibility of springing a leak, expansion of liquids, and settlement of the solution inbetween the two filters.

[Moz]

you are going to have to make it VERY thin though, since the image needs a flat surface, not one with depth.

I'd imagine a sheet of tin foil thin. If you can get water in that. You'd be golden.

You should design a rubber bladder on of the the ends to handle expansion. Maybe if you ambitious make a system that slowly pumps the water to prevent crap from accumulating at the bottom.

If it works, head to the patent office ASAP.

[Jason Miller]

how about simple water with egg shell white food dye? the hard part would be making the two filters water tight

[twocik23]

A few years ago I tried cloudy water, Ice, jello and wax. Each design had their own problems. The main problem with the water design is, when doing any really fast, jerky movements you'll see the shake/bubbles in the water. I also had a little problem with the baby powder sticking to the UV filter. The jello, well just didn't work out. As for the wax, it's really hard to get it perfect.


I know I know where can we find the holly grail...... :violin:



Here's an idea that I haven't tried yet, if anyone would like to take the torch for while .... It's a little hard to find one (for a cheap test), but have always wanted to try a piece of a LCD projection TV screen. The newer samsung's looked like they might be worth it. I know kind of funny right, people at best buy looking to buy a new TV and you see me in the corner examining the TV's materials. :O




.

[Bob Gruen]

Silicone grease...

You can get a clear-ish silicone grease at any hobby shop. Ask for Associated diff lube. Then experiment with two pieces of glass with a paper matte spacer for the grease. Add sheets of paper until the grease is the right thickness for the opacity you want.

The beauty is it is not truly a liquid and will stay in place. The paper matte will allow for the required adjustment.

Bob

[J Michael]

Maybe try using a small amount of kaolin or white powdered pigment mixed with melted wax. Or sticking with the liquid approach, add something like gelatin to keep the particulates suspended (a preservative would probably be a good idea).

[robmneilson]

How about using some pomade?

(The pleasing odor is half the point)

[Trapezoid]

Silicone grease...

You can get a clear-ish silicone grease at any hobby shop. Ask for Associated diff lube. Then experiment with two pieces of glass with a paper matte spacer for the grease. Add sheets of paper until the grease is the right thickness for the opacity you want.

The beauty is it is not truly a liquid and will stay in place. The paper matte will allow for the required adjustment.

Bob
Good idea. I'm not sure about using gel-materials though-- I experimented with pressing shampoo in between plastic plates, and every time, there would be little bubbles that I couldn't get rid of. The act of touching the plate to the gel seems to create air pockets, and then you have to clean it off and start over.


A few years ago I tried cloudy water, Ice, jello and wax. Each design had their own problems. The main problem with the water design is, when doing any really fast, jerky movements you'll see the shake/bubbles in the water.
My idea was to just screw two filters together underwater, so there'd be no air or bubbles whatsoever. Of course, I'm not really sure how airtight you could get them, so bubbles might leak in (and the liquid might leak out.)


How about using some pomade?

(The pleasing odor is half the point)
Fop or Dapper Dan?

[Postmaster]

I would vote for Dapper Dan. On the oher hand ...

about 20 years ago I made my own brand of pomade - it was called "Bel-Hair" and may be even better because it smelled like Bazooka Joe Chewing Gum (wintergreen) ;-)

....

Have a look at this Tutorial (click on DS-Wax-GG)
http://www.jetsetmodels.info/tutorials.htm


Frank

[twocik23]

"My idea was to just screw two filters together underwater, so there'd be no air or bubbles whatsoever. Of course, I'm not really sure how airtight you could get them, so bubbles might leak in (and the liquid might leak out.)"


I used plumbers putty, but you could use pvc glue (or any glue really), rubber seal, etc..

Hell I've even tried stretching a condom to see if that might make a nice screen, yea that's right a condom. :O No go btw.

.

[armisiano]

Okay so I'll be getting several UV filters in the mail in a couple days. I need some sort of suggestion though of what to use to test out the different substances on (glues and gels and what not) so I don't permanently mess up the UV filters.

(Sorry I don't have a random pane of glass laying around)

[robmneilson]

I was actually serious about the pomade. Try using a clearer brand of it like crew....it won't settle, seperate or dry out. And if you apply it correctly there will be no air bubbles.

Vaseline would work as well I think.

[armisiano]

Alright, I'm guilty. So several days ago I got my small bundle of 52mm UV filters to use for this DIY experiment, and I chickened out. I realized that a couple of my lenses didn't have UV filters, but had 52mm threads, and I couldn't resist. Also looking at them (the filters) there won't be that small of a space between 2 of them when screwed together. It's fairly spacious in there. I still have a couple laying around, I might try the pomade idea, I'm not sure. I've kind of lost wind on this idea if you know what I mean. Eh, maybe inspiration will come.

[Rodney V. Smith]

I know some filters are pretty deep and they have a metal/plastic ring to hold the glass inside. what about taking the ring out and placing two of the uv glass inside with the gel between) then putting the ring back on?

[sek0910]

How about trying some Translucent Vellum paper that you get from art supply stores? it's pretty thick and flexible.. I tried it briefly behind a lens mounted on some PVC and I did get what appeared to be a clear focused image on the paper. Didn't go as far as to video the image on the paper to see how sharp, etc. the image really was.

[twocik23]

I'm working with a plastics specialist and he's telling me if I can get my hands on one of the translucent AOL boxes he can make it. He thinks he already know what type of plastic it is, but thought it be fun to experiment with.



As for your idea with the Translucent Vellum paper, sounds interesting. Try and upload a sample or two. I'd like to see if it needs to be moved or not.


I'm working a few new ones and will be sharing. :) I've also CNC'd screen holders and rod assemblies to check out.

[Jason Miller]

those same translucent aol boxes can be found at walmart best buy for just a couple bucks

[twocik23]

I've looked there and have checked many other places. However I could have looked it over, what section ?

The ones I found had alot of grain, and couldn't be move enough. I'm probably going to take a trip tonight to old wally world, I'm going to see what I can find for testing. I'll post some results of what I find.


I'm going to make a materials check off list, that way people can reference it and save time & money on what to use. For those DIY'ers stay tuned.

[sek0910]

I went to a local glass store and they cut me a circular piece of 1/4 inch double ground glass for $10 that I was able to drop into a PVC adapter (one end female threaded), and hold in place with a black plumbing gasket. I then bought an open ended plastic cap (female threaded as well) onto which I mounted an M42 mounting plate from an old mamiya 35mm SLR cam I had. Then I screwed one end of a 1 1/2" PVC threaded male nipple into the plastic cap holding the lens, and screwed the other end of the nipple into the PVC adapter that held the ground glass..

I was able to focus the image on the gg by rotating the the PVC adapter on the threaded nipple (as it moved backwards and forwards as it screwed in and out).

I placed the end of this assembly into the small end of a black rubber "Plumbquik" 3" to 2" pipe reducer. Finally, I cut a one inch section of 3" PVC and placed in into the 3" end of the reducer, narrowing the opening to just the right size to fit over a macro lens attached to my Canon XHA1 camcorder.

I was thus able to focus both the 35mm lens and the camcorder on the ground glass.

Next step is to check the quality of the image... not sure if the glass I bought is good enough and/or if I have to buy a small $4.95 vibrating button motor too..

total cost (not including the lens and metal mounting plate), about $25.

Results and pics to follow after testing.

[twocik23]

Sek,
You don't want both sides of the GG to be frosted, only one. Most likely you're going to need to move that, I would try spinning first. Without a suspension system inside the unit you'll end up with a very hard piece to move. Take some pictures and a few screen grabs, this is the best way to figure this out.

[sek0910]

oops, I mis-spoke, only one side of the glass is frosted, the other side smooth and clear.. If double ground glass means both sides frosted, then I really didn't get double ground... sorry about that