Last Minute 2nd thought Red or EX1

[Kenn Christenson]

Okay, I know a lot of you may think this is a no brainer, but I've had some serious second thoughts about purchasing a Red - since I've seen what the EX1 can do.

A little background - I operate, pretty much, a one-man-band production company - shooting and editing commercials, training and promotional videos. Beside that work, I'm planning to shoot an effects-heavy feature. The problems with the Red, that I'm running into are:
(1) its shallow DOF - a problem for miniature work.
(2) its bulk - as a one man band this is a pretty big downside, especially since I also haul around 2x70lb. HMI ballasts + dolly & track and additional tungsten fixtures.
(3) the funky workflow with Redcine, etc.
(4) uncertainty of sharp focus in 4K

The primary reasons for going the EX1 route would be:
(1) price - I could afford to buy the camera and some lighter equipment for the price of the Red.
(2) since I'm not counting on gathering a crew for the feature - it would be easier to operate.
(3) extended DOF for miniatures.
(4) easier to hand off footage to clients I shoot for (via download from laptop to drive.)
(5) could still use the non-intel macs, I already own, to edit footage.

I've been going round and round in my head about this decision - and now that it's crunch time (I just received notice my Red is almost ready to ship) I'd appreciate some other thoughts on the matter.

[puredrifting]

Hi Kenn:

Wow, you are seriously confused. I can't think of two more different cameras.

Yes, they both make beautiful images. RED is a 4k digital cinema camera that needs lots of crew, support, gear, support gear, etc. in order to conceive of a viable workflow. You will also be in for a minimum of what, about U.S. $30,000.00 on the low end with RED?

The EX-1 is a prosumer $6,000.00 camera that shoots long GOP 35Mbps video. It sounds ideal for your needs although I seriously question if the resolution will be sufficient for extreme visual effects. There is a lot of debate, but if it were me, I wouldn't shoot a visual effects heavy project with any prosumer camera, EX-1, Canon or HVX-200, I agree, the signal is not generally robust enough to give you the best possible look. That is the reason why none of the VFX shots in Cloverfield were done on the HVX, they were done on the Viper or the F23.

One man band shooting corporate and commercials with a RED is not a viable workflow, or at least not an ideal workflow. One man band with EX-1 is ideal, I just don't know if the signal will be robust enough for your effects heavy feature. I guess you need to get serious with yourself about your talents as a filmmaker, the possibility of you really producing, shooting and editing a film that will actually do anything or be shown anywhere where the adantages of 4k and RED would be worth it. If you are serious, have a killer script, financing and interested distributors, I would buy a RED. But if you just "have a dream", don't waste your money on a RED, buy the EX-1 and rent a RED or HPX3000 or whatever to shoot your film, if and when you actually do it. You need that extra money to pay your talent, build your sets, feed your crew, etc.

1. How many films have you written, produced, shot and edited?
2. How many films have you produced that have received distribution and have broken even or made a profit?
3. Do you have distribution?
4. Do you have a business plan for your company and the film?
5. Do you a registered script with the WGA?


If you can't answer yes with the number of films and yes to at least most of the above questions, your chances of creating a successful film that is commercially viable is miniscule, I would buy the EX-1 and make money with your corporate/commercials and if and when you ever make your film, rent, rent, rent!
I can't make a decision for you but hopefully this helps you with a reality check.

Best,

Dan

[Kenn Christenson]

Thanks for taking the time to give a great reply, Dan.

I had a chance to "play with" a Red, last night - and what really surprised me was the bulk of the rig and how unwieldy it was to do hand held work. The other surprise was how shallow the DOF was - even at f11 @ 17mm. I used to own an Eclair NPR - it was about as heavy as the Red, but at least it had some solid gripping points built into the camera.

You're right, of course, about the robustness of the Red's image for SPFX. I've already done some miniature and green screen tests with the HVX and can attest to the difficulty of getting a super clean composite. I did see, on DVXUser, someone posted some greenscreen, shot with the EX1, and thought it keyed MUCH better than what I was getting, at least from the HVX.

The plan with the Red was to rent it out, while I'm finishing up sets and miniatures - then use that money for crew, talent, etc. - when I'm ready to shoot - hopefully fall or winter of this year.

[puredrifting]

Hi Kenn:

I am sure that you will dig the RED, it's really quite an extraordinary camera. I am attending the first Los Angeles RED User Group next week. Even though I cannot afford to buy a RED, I would like to be "up to speed" on it for when I rent it.

It's just that when you mention "one man band", that does not go well with RED although if you are mainly shooting miniatures, you can do that by yourself. I have shot a lot of footage of Ray Harryhausen and The Chiodo Brothers (Team America - Killer Clowns from Outer Space) at work and stop motion, miniatures and small practical effects photography can successfully be done alone, that's how these guys do it or sometimes there are two of them at work. But as far as going out and shooting live action alone? I think you would have a difficult time with the RED.

Ideally you should have the RED to shoot your film and the EX-1 to shoot your corporate/commercial stuff. Even though the EX-1 is only 35Mbps and 4:2:0, I have heard that you can pull a decent key with it, although I doubt that it would hold up well unless you use the uncompressed SDI out, which since you sound as if you will be studio-bound for your film, might be a viable way of working. I have yet to see any test of the EX-1's SDI uncompressed output into a computer or uncompressed disc recorder but I bet it looks pretty good. Might be a viable alternative to the RED.

Yes, the 35mm frame does have very shallow depth of field, that's another difficulty about shooting handheld without a wireless FF and an AC pulling the focus and iris. Just one of the reasons why the RED is a lousy "one man band" camera, It is no different than shooting one man band with a Panavision or Arri 535. You can do it but it wouldn't be easy.

Dan

[hunter richards]

Buy the ex1, rent the red.

[philip bloom]

any effects heavy work can be captured live in 422 with the ex1 and mac and Aja if need be

[Kenn Christenson]

Thanks, a lot, guys - very helpful.

Kenn

[joe 1008]

Or buy the HVX500 and rent primes if needed. The 500 might close the gap for you between those very different cameras you are interested in: A viable ENG camera and, adding primes for example, a viable camera for cinematographic productions. Also pricewise it is half the way between the EX1 and the RED.

[DC EX1]

Looking at a budget stand point alone... EX1 - $7000, Red - 60,000 when the dust settles... For 7K you're getting a great camera and your bank roll can keep earning interest while the RED one's value drops over time...

I myself am a one man band as well and the EX1 has been great! Small, flexible, great lcd and a quick and easy work flow from start to finish. Further more, is there even a pipeline big enough to support 4K or is it still the "data to burn" mentality?

My vote, EX1, as posted before, buy the EX, rent the RED (buy in 3 years when it's 20K for everything)

[Kenn Christenson]

I was looking at the HPX-500 (I use one at work. Did I mention I also have a "day job?") The trouble with the HPX was that once you got even a basic package together, it was closing in on what I was going to pay for Red $26K-27K (Including a new laptop and FCP.)

Good thought, DC - about getting a Red, after all the excitement wains. Yeah, right now, the pipeline for red kinda sucks. Would probably finish everything in 2K, anyway - give room for reframing.

[philip bloom]

Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.

I use and own many different cameras, the EX1 is startlingly good for it's price and sounds like the camera for you.

[joe 1008]

The trouble with the HPX was that once you got even a basic package together, it was closing in on what I was going to pay for Red $26K-27K (Including a new laptop and FCP.)

Naked camera EX1: 7K, HPX500 20K, RED about 30K. Of course, if you buy additional equipment, the camera price fades away proportionally. Same with the EX1.

Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.

The EX1 is a bit sharper (900 against 800 lines of resolution?). But the HPX 500 is very fast and has at least the same dynamic range and you can get DOF out of it if you want. But yes, for 7K the EX1 seems incredibly good to me. (Haven´t tried it, yet.)

[Kenn Christenson]

Right, the EX1 kinda blows the HPX500 (sharpness-wise) out of the water. I actually made an HD-DVD of that jet ski footage to check it out on my HDTV. Even though it was compressed for the web @720P - it still looked very nice .

[Stevet]

Ken, you may want to get hold of joelnet over at the reduser forum. Tell him Steve T. sent you. I've worked with him in the past. He just received his RED ONE, although I believe he's waiting on the adapter for his Nikon primes.

He's checked out my EX1, and really liked it. He also is considering the EX1 too.
We plan on doing some side by side testing to see if we can get some of it to cut.

The testing is not to compare, it's obvious the RED will be better for it's higher rez, and tight control of DOF. We are interested in if we can use them together and have the EX1 cut in some shots.

[Lor]

For a "one man band" I afraid purediffting is right. Even with the EX1 that I now owned, a viable work flow for 35Mbs is still problematic. Not many NLE support it yet so my guess is that the Red will have a harder time adapting to existing NLE.

Just my 2 cents.

[joe 1008]

Even though it was compressed for the web @720P - it still looked very nice .

At 720P there won´t be no difference between the HPX and the EX1 resolutionwise.

We plan on doing some side by side testing to see if we can get some of it to cut.

The testing is not to compare, it's obvious the RED will be better for it's higher rez, and tight control of DOF. We are interested in if we can use them together and have the EX1 cut in some shots.

To my eyes the EX1 and the RED look astonishing similar. (because of their CMOS-sensors?)

[3xm]

WE have tow RED cameras and honestly while the image quality is beautiful, it's a currently kind of a pain to work with. The workflow is still buggy and very unfriendly and everything takes more time and planning with the RED. It would be impossible to operate as a one man band.

[DeeZiD]

The EX1 is a bit sharper (900 against 800 lines of resolution?). But the HPX 500 is very fast and has at least the same dynamic range and you can get DOF out of it if you want. But yes, for 7K the EX1 seems incredibly good to me. (Haven´t tried it, yet.)


A bit?
EX1 reaches 1000 lines in 24p/25p/30p 1920x1080 and the HPX500 only about 500.

In fact the HPX500 has only 1/4 of the resolution of the EX1 (513000px vs. 2073600px)


regards Dennis

[Stevet]

Last night we put the EX1 next to the RED ONE (Joel's).

This is the first time I've seen the RED. Amazing. Man it's so much larger than the EX1. The rig he had with the Camera/battery/Hard drive weighed in around 25LBS.

We really did not have much time to do any real scientific expertiments. We just wanted to get a feel for the RED and EX1 in the same environment.

The RED is real nice. It's built like a tank.
The RED only allows a 720 preview image during recording. Joel, bought the small LCD. I can't remember the model number and exact resolution, but it actully looked good.

We hooked it up to his broadcast 24" JVC monitor and a Dell 24" LCD.
One thing Joel wished the RED has was the Sony EX1 (JVC type) peak type focus assist. The RED has a couple focus assist tools. One was where you selected a window within the frame and monitored a peaking line that corresponded to the selection. The other was a magnified view.

Since it was getting late, we did not have a chance to view our shots from the RED. I can tell you there's something magical about the quality coming off the RED.

One thing of interest was that when we selected 2K image rez from the RED, the DOF used with his lens combo was very close to the EX1. At 3K and especially 4K, DOF was real tight. It looked great. Joel is renting the lens, since he's still waiting on the adapter.

The EX1 also looked great. As far as noise levels, it's probably equal to the RED at 2K. 4K RED images the noise is so small, it's in a different league.
The EX1 is at least two stops (maybe more) faster than the RED. In fact, one shot to get closer to his levels, I have to flip on ND1 on the EX1.

I believe he was at 320ASA, but we experimented with higher settings.
At 320, it sure looked clean.

I guess the real question is how much levels you can push in post before noise is an issue. I have a feeling, there is no issue here.

[Barry_Green]

In fact the HPX500 has only 1/4 of the resolution of the EX1 (513000px vs. 2073600px)



Except that a) you're wrong about the pixel count, it's 620,000 instead of 513,000, and second, you're wrong again because it's 620,000 per chip in a spatial offset system, which gives the overall total system resolution about 1600 x 900. So to say that the HPX500 has 1/4 the resolution of the EX1 is misleading and laughable. Put the two cameras side by side and do you seriously think the EX1 is going to look 4x sharper? I think you'll be pretty surprised at how wrong that assumption is.

[sean90291]

I think a lot of people are actually weighing the EX1 against the Red. Because while they might be seen as very different cameras, they BOTH make sense for low-budget, indie filmmakers...but for different reasons.

If you are really planning to continue as a one-man band, go with the EX1. The Red is unwieldy and heavy and, practically speaking, requires two people to go out shooting. There are ways to work around this, I'm sure, like special carts and packs for taking everything with you. But having used the Red for a week, I can honestly see why a guy who wants to stay mobile and independent will go with the EX1. Given the amazing picture quality of the EX1 and the tiny (in comparison) form factor, it has an awful lot going for it. The Red, with all the batteries and rails and plates and so on, is really really heavy.

There are also so many extra costs that surprise you after a camera purchase. And the EX1's price will give you that extra room to afford these costs.

I like the Red over the EX1 because I'm interested in drama above all else, and I want that cinematic depth of field, and the whole 35mm adapter thing has really worn thin for me.

[Stevet]

I like the Red over the EX1 because I'm interested in drama above all else, and I want that cinematic depth of field, and the whole 35mm adapter thing has really worn thin for me.


I hear you there. Well put.

The RED is amazing, but if you're not ready for the additional costs and work involved working with the footage, be prepared.

If you want a simple solution, the EX1 with the Letus Extreme and the new correct EX1 Letus acromat is a great way to go.

[sean90291]

Given that DOF is determined in large part by the sensor size, I can't wait for the day that 35mm sensors are housed in smaller cameras. Within the next few years? That will be awesome: an HV20 sized camera with a 35mm sensor and Nikon mount.

In the meantime, at least the EX1 has 1/2" sensor instead of the standard 1/3".

[DCSensui]

I've already done some miniature and green screen tests with the HVX and can attest to the difficulty of getting a super clean composite.

Kenn...

The software used to pull the key can also have a dramatic effect on the quality of the greenscreen FX.

I'm using After Effects and compared Keylight to Primatte. Generally Primatte is a lot more flexible of the two. The user can define what is green and what isn't. I recently shot a bunch of interviews against green screen and forgot to pass the word about what colors not to wear.

Of course one of the interviews wore a green shirt. Fortunately the green was different from the green of the background and I decided to take a chance and go ahead.

I managed to pull a pretty good key, even with the green shirt. Primatte distinguishes what's "in" and what's "out" based on a 3D color space, and is capable of separating colors that seem impossibly close.

That said, what helps is having clean edges. Fringing, ringing and unsharp-mask halos are all troublesome. While I haven't used the EX1 for green screen work yet, the higher detail of the EX1's footage looks like it would have smaller artifacts, if any, and would provide a cleaner and more detailed key.

[puredrifting]

Kenn...

The software used to pull the key can also have a dramatic effect on the quality of the greenscreen FX.

I'm using After Effects and compared Keylight to Primatte. Generally Primatte is a lot more flexible of the two. The user can define what is green and what isn't. I recently shot a bunch of interviews against green screen and forgot to pass the word about what colors not to wear.

Of course one of the interviews wore a green shirt. Fortunately the green was different from the green of the background and I decided to take a chance and go ahead.

I managed to pull a pretty good key, even with the green shirt. Primatte distinguishes what's "in" and what's "out" based on a 3D color space, and is capable of separating colors that seem impossibly close.

That said, what helps is having clean edges. Fringing, ringing and unsharp-mask halos are all troublesome. While I haven't used the EX1 for green screen work yet, the higher detail of the EX1's footage looks like it would have smaller artifacts, if any, and would provide a cleaner and more detailed key.

Hi Dean:

When you get a chance, I would love to see some EX-1 greenscreen footage. That is the one thing I have not seen from anyone yet. Yes, it has great resolution and low noise but it is a 4:2:0 camera. Should be interesting to see. Use a blond model smoking a cigarette, if possible ;-)

Dan

[lawriejaffa]

"Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip."

Hey Mister - thats subjective, and is a point of discussion that has been answered and clarified by Barry Green numerous times.

I find this bizarre discussion somewhat amusing, how one can honestly compare these cams is totally bizarre. Most folk see advantages and disadvantages to the EX with other hdv cams, or hvx etc etc.

Comparing the EX to the Red for feature films (if both can be comfortably afforded) is as sensical as comparing the hvx, or canon a1 to the Red...

Given the obvious naivity of the poster (in even thinking of spending such an amount on a red for a one man band to make primarily corporates) is reason enough to shake your head at this silly thread. In anycase, its obvious that if your primarily doing corporates and normal business, that the EX, or any of the other hdv cams would be fine - personally id go for the hvx for its filmlook preferences but that is subjective too naturally. As is also the reason im getting the HPX also, as its to me an ideal cross over from corporate to film projects. The EX will grab a sharp picture - no doubt there, but if your wanting to cross over to film and can afford a red - id be looking at 2/3 options such as the hpx, not the prosumer range...

That said and i mean no offence, given the impression of your first post, it may be a prosumer cam (that you can work and learn with) that would be your best start!

[nsc]

We have access to both the RED and EX-1(with the letus extreme) and i have to say that for the majority of work so far, we havent needed to use the RED...its just overkill for the work we have been doing...this is perhaps a testament to the fact that our budgets are not HUGE, but the EX-1 really is a great camera for the price.

[Sumfun]

Hi Dean:

When you get a chance, I would love to see some EX-1 greenscreen footage. That is the one thing I have not seen from anyone yet. Yes, it has great resolution and low noise but it is a 4:2:0 camera. Should be interesting to see. Use a blond model smoking a cigarette, if possible ;-)

Dan

Dan,

Here's a blue (!) screen test that Jim Arthurs did (go to post #8 and follow the link). Pretty impressive results. Green screen and good lighting should be even better. I think his conclusion is that the full 1920x1080 resolution more than makes up for the 4:2:0 color.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=123990

[sean90291]

One factor I just thought of, which distinguishes Red from EX1 as far as a "one-man-crew" goes...and that is you can't really run around with an onboard mic with the Red. The camera is a bit noisier than most video cameras. Certainly noisier than an EX1. I just think you gotta get the mic up and away from the Red on a boom...and that means a second person to cover your sound for you.

[joe 1008]

This might be a bit out of topic but maybe on this thread are some guys who can tell me:

Did anybody try the EX1 with the Letus Extreme and the RED 18-50mm zoom?

[Kenn Christenson]

"Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip."

Hey Mister - thats subjective, and is a point of discussion that has been answered and clarified by Barry Green numerous times.

I find this bizarre discussion somewhat amusing, how one can honestly compare these cams is totally bizarre. Most folk see advantages and disadvantages to the EX with other hdv cams, or hvx etc etc.

Comparing the EX to the Red for feature films (if both can be comfortably afforded) is as sensical as comparing the hvx, or canon a1 to the Red...

Given the obvious naivity of the poster (in even thinking of spending such an amount on a red for a one man band to make primarily corporates) is reason enough to shake your head at this silly thread. In anycase, its obvious that if your primarily doing corporates and normal business, that the EX, or any of the other hdv cams would be fine - personally id go for the hvx for its filmlook preferences but that is subjective too naturally. As is also the reason im getting the HPX also, as its to me an ideal cross over from corporate to film projects. The EX will grab a sharp picture - no doubt there, but if your wanting to cross over to film and can afford a red - id be looking at 2/3 options such as the hpx, not the prosumer range...

That said and i mean no offence, given the impression of your first post, it may be a prosumer cam (that you can work and learn with) that would be your best start!

I already shoot with the HPX-500, at work. A very nice camera, but (in my opinion) the image is still softer and noisier than I'd like. BTW I've shot some national spots in 35mm & 16mm as operator and DP and owned my own 16mm cameras- so I know a little something about which projects require a large crew and which don't. And, BTW, there are already quite a few one-man-bands, who are successfully using the Red in their business - so I don't think my question was that naive.

The primary reason I'm even considering the EX1 is because of its ability to resolve around 1K lines (according to reviews I've read.) If the camera was only resolving around the level of the HVX of HPX I wouldn't have asked the question.

[Sumfun]

I think Adam Wilt will do a comparison of the EX1, Red One, and Sony F23. This is where he mentions that it's coming soon: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/exporting_stills_from_fcp/

[Kenn Christenson]

That should be VERY interesting. Looking forward to that one.

[Noel Evans]

Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.

I use and own many different cameras, the EX1 is startlingly good for it's price and sounds like the camera for you.

Sorry Philip I know you meant the chip resolution here and not quality as that would be a little misleading. Ill defer to Barrys post on the rest.

Though certainly the image resolution of the EX1 is great. Might have trouble shooting a prime on it straight to camera though, or obtaining the same dynamic range, or having 4 independant channel audio with professional quality pre amps and controls and the list goes on etc etc. Im not trying to state these things in reference to what the EX1 cant do really, I just want to move the topic away from the HPX (which is pretty irrelevant anyway) , because it really is a professional broadcast camera in comparison. Ill let someone with Red experience debate its merits.

If all I considered when shooting was resolution then I dont even need an EX1 I could just grab the HV20. (but my 3 year old might be annoyed as she seems to have adopted it).