PCMCIA or Express Card ??

[drdimento]

Just wondered if anyone has done any testing to determine if:

PCMCIA is faster or slower than Express Card
PCMCIA faster or slower than Express Card when the PCMCIA is plugged in via USB2?
Will PCMCIA or Express Card be the future of digital camera delivery?


Our company is at a threshold and has to make some decisions. With the support getting ready to be dropped on our NLE software version we have to make some decisions and therein want to make these decisions based on "informed" by experience and not by literature or manufacturer claims. Therein by this we mean we found that P2 off loaded faster than FS100 although that wasn't the claim. Our reasons for the "actual test" questions above are we are going to change some of our gear and want to know which direction/path to follow.

NLE Considerations

Avid Xpress Pro, Avid Media Composer, Premier Pro CS3, Final Cut Pro Studio and in this order BECAUSE the latter would mean a machine change but also an opportunity to go laptop with a Power Mac Pro which we are told by some will not only handle HD but also a feature movie . . wow, pretty amazing if so. We have 3 machines that will handle all the others and prefer that path but we need to configure ouselves for the future and while we're at it we are wondering if P2 is it since ALL the high end laptops were are looking at have Express Card slots but NO PCMCIA?

[ProfessorU]

If you're offloading a P2 card, you're using CardBus, which is built on the PCMCIA formfactor. If you add an adapter to plug into an ExpressCard slot (like the duel adapter) it won't get faster but it won't get much slower, either. ExpressCard is a faster interface than CardBus, but interface speed has not been a limiting factor for most people.

The advantage to the ExpressCard slot is that it's the current laptop standard, replacing CardBus. If you want to buy a laptop with native CardBus slot(s), look in the "large business" sections of Dell or HPs sites. I use a Dell Latitude D531 to offload in the field and I'm very happy with it. I can do simple edits or a rough pass of greenscreening on set with Edius Broadcast, run OnLocation if I don't feel like packing a rack of gear, and still run all day with a second battery. Plus I got it for under $1000.

I think most of the ways to move P2 cards over USB are with Panasonic hardware, namely the camera, P2 Store, P2 gear, etc. I don't think there's a cheap adapter that will do the same thing.

This is the part of the thread where I stand back and let the Mac users convince you that FCP on a Mac is the way to go. To each his own!

[Barry_Green]

Dell, HP, Sony and Lenovo all make current laptops that support CardBus. I've got a brand-new Lenovo that includes both CardBus and ExpressCard/54 slots. I have a relatively modern Sony SZ340 that has both ExpressCard/34 and CardBus slots. Really there's not much of a reason to choose between them when laptops are readily available that have both.

CardBus or ExpressCard transfers are far superior to USB transfers.

[JaviBUSA08]

I am a Mac/FCP user but I think they have Pros and Cons. Macs are far from perfect as are PC's. I own both.

[drdimento]

Hmmmm, we haven't seen one that has both buses. Now that I would really like. Personally we seem to have been favoring HP and Gateway as we've had excellent success with both. Our DVW's are HP XW series and if for no other reason we thought of that path because of those units reliability. But having both slots then I would feel quite comfortable. I checked out the Laveno series but WOW my eyes would go buggy on those size screens. We're hoping that this "new" machine would eliminate the need for a "biggie" work station like our dual xeon's and is why we been looking at only 7200K speed SATA HDD's on board and separate (non shared) video memory. The HP9759US I think is one like this but I think it only has Express Card. While we don't have to have both, as we make all these changes and uncertain where we will be relative to storage, editing, and camera (no we're not getting rid of our HVX's yet :o) we want to be machine capable for both if that were possible. This is good help all.

BTW, on the Apple comment, we actually started with Apple/Mac and moved away for support community, local support, and proprietary software limitations, reasons when our G5's acted up and had a horrible time getting them straightened up and when we did we dumped them for PC's (hp) and Avid, wherein our current version is being dumped and our reason for "looking around" :o)

[Barry_Green]

Well, again, it's not hard to find a laptop that has both. The Sony SZ series, the Sony AR series, the Lenovo R61 and lots of others have both. It's not universal, but it's certainly not rare either.

[ProfessorU]

Large screens on a laptop and 7200RPM drives tend to drain the battery very quickly. There's always a trade off when you're trying to get a laptop for in the field and editing at home.

[James H.]

First and foremost - wait a few months, the USB 3.0 standard is on it's way. That will make a huge impression on what we can do with cabled solutions.

Macs and PCs are both computers... the difference is at the kernel. It's like comparing Toyota to Honda... both are excellent cars for doing common tasks, but both have their short falls in the engine, which are nearly identical.

Anyways... I too use an FS100 for long-format / tripod shots, and P2 for hand held shooting. I still use the camera itself to offload footage from P2 though. I find the difference in transfer time is rather minor.

For example, when I transfer about 10 minutes of footage from a P2 card, I have just enough to time to go down to my fridge, grab a beer, pour it into a pint, and come back to my desk. When transferring from an FS100, I can do all of that, AND still have time to enjoy a gulp.

I usually transfer to a RAID5 array of many WD Raptor disks, though, which probably maxes out the bus speed either way.

You reach a point with any technology that speed of any single device becomes irrelevant if any single device is a bottleneck. In my case, my server farm is mad fast, but the bus on the P2 and the Firestore won't go any faster.

Ah well... Friday ranting...

[drdimento]

Hmmmm, OK imagine that you were starting over, fresh! You had all the support gear (lights, audio, grip gear, etc.) and you were trying to decide whether to keep your HVX200/P2 configuration or go something else? And then imagine that you wanted to do documentaries and commercials and maybe movies although the latter you might farm out to a production company . . that is, you will direct the movies and have final cut on it but otherwise it's someone else's gear, people, etc.

Thus your configuration other than all the support gear was one camera and one editor system. Would a laptop configuration handle it? Or is it still better to always be desktop? I'm asking all these questions because I've never edited in laptop mode because our laptop wasn't/isn't hot enough to handle video editing and thus I don't know. Moreover, while I loooooooove the HVX200 is the P2 here to stay or is the market going somewhere else? I'm thinking HD DVD vs BluRay where we were sure HD DVD was going to be the ticket but we were obviously wrong. I will be in a situation where I might be without camera and editor and have to get'em and I want to be config'd for the next couple years. Avid doesn't seem to be going there fast enough and that scares me as a loyal Avid house and Apple, Adobe, and Grass Valley seem to be moving at a jet pace and so I'm to wonder.

Please feel free to ramble and spill the info, I need input. I'm confused. I had the ticket but the ticket seems to be burning up :o) Now I gotta get a new one and with all that has transpired in the last year I need guidence . . I mean, maybe even HDV is the ticket . . it's certainly cheaper :o)

[drdimento]

Well, again, it's not hard to find a laptop that has both. The Sony SZ series, the Sony AR series, the Lenovo R61 and lots of others have both. It's not universal, but it's certainly not rare either.

We've sort of avoided Sony anything because of their proprietary formats and setups much like we've avoided Apple/Mac and especially because of support. Our last VAIO as example was a pistol when things weren't ticking right . . we most always had to call Sony because no one could help. For this reason we've liked HP and Gateway. Just 2 cents on it. On a personal note my TV is Sony HDTV and I wouldn't have any other because the picture is AMAZING!! :o)

[AppaLuci]

Our last VAIO as example was a pistol when things weren't ticking right . .

Any more specific details you can share on what wasn't ticking right? I just ordered the new Sony VAIO; never had one before. 'Course, I'm not doing HD quite yet, but will eventually.

[Jockomo]

PCMCIA and Express Card are not competing technologies. They were both developed by the same organization. The Express Card is a new hardware standard designed to replace the older PCMCIA. Computer manufacturers will be phasing out the older PCMCIA slots. You can find out more about this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express_card

My guess is that; ultimately Panasonic will begin to manufacture cameras with the memory that fits in the express card factor because the benefit of being able to pop that card into your laptop is too big to ignore. One day they will bite the bullet and announce the new format. I hope it's sooner than later personally.

In any case, just because there is something new on the block doesn't mean your camera is broken. If you want a new laptop get one with a cardbus and get the adapter. The fact that Blueray won the HD war has nothing to do with your camera.

[drdimento]

Any more specific details you can share on what wasn't ticking right? I just ordered the new Sony VAIO; never had one before. 'Course, I'm not doing HD quite yet, but will eventually.

Please understand that I'm not down on Sony it's just that the Sony config has all kinds of "Sony Only" stuff in it and the result is when some issue develops and one wants to tweak it, we'll that feature is either disabled or relocated to some other location on the VAIO. In particular, we wanted to update some drivers and found that when we did the machine went haywire. It was for this reason that Sony has that "bot" software for visiting Sony's website in the background to get Sony drivers instead of the manufacturer ones and in the end when something goes amiss, well, only Sony can fix it for ya. Our local repair shop said, "you better contact Sony this looks too complicated," which of course we did and found a solution after mountains of "talk time" and of couse they were helpful but what if I hadn't have had support, that is the warranty had run out? Hmmmmm.

So for this business we couldn't have anything like that and thus sold it to a gamer. The gamer changed the video card and shortly later the motherboard burned up. He brought the machine to us and we sent it to Sony and they said we did not have a Sony driver to drive the Nividia card and thus the machine wasn't under warranty. The kid threw the machine away and was our son's best friend. If I hadn't have sold it to him for 1/2 what we paid for it, I would have felt obligated to give him either all or 1/2 his money back. It was a lesson for us. :o(

There are more issues too like installing some piece of hardware and the machine didn't like it and on calling Sony they said there had to be a work around and then when we installed HDD's (media ones) and from time to time the VAIO would lose the drives :o( Sure we got it fixed after calling support but it's just things we don't like that are a pistol at 2.00a in the morning.

[drdimento]

. . The Express Card is a new hardware standard designed to replace the older PCMCIA. Computer manufacturers will be phasing out the older PCMCIA slots. . . . My guess is that; ultimately Panasonic will begin to manufacture cameras with the memory that fits in the express card factor because the benefit of being able to pop that card into your laptop is too big to ignore. One day they will bite the bullet and announce the new format. I hope it's sooner than later personally. . . In any case, just because there is something new on the block doesn't mean your camera is broken. If you want a new laptop get one with a cardbus and get the adapter. The fact that Blueray won the HD war has nothing to do with your camera.

It's true of course. I guess just having always been that kid that bought on the leading edge we were just wanting to configure ourselves for the future. So, therein P2 and the right machine/NLE we'll be groovy forward. Perhaps we should spend more time on the application discernment since that's the most difficult to "change" That is, I could change cameras or computers and in a matter of days I'm reasonalbly sure that I'd be pretty efficient at their use respectively but after three months of Edius I hardly feel even remotely proficient. Thanks for the input.

Any more specific details you can share on what wasn't ticking right? I just ordered the new Sony VAIO; never had one before. 'Course, I'm not doing HD quite yet, but will eventually.

Please understand that I'm not down on Sony it's just that the Sony config has all kinds of "Sony Only" stuff in it and the result is when some issue develops and one wants to tweak it, we'll that feature is either disabled or relocated to some other location on the VAIO. In particular, we wanted to update some drivers and found that when we did the machine went haywire. It was for this reason that Sony has that "bot" software for visiting Sony's website in the background to get Sony drivers instead of the manufacturer ones and in the end when something goes amiss, well, only Sony can fix it for ya. Our local repair shop said, "you better contact Sony this looks too complicated," which of course we did and found a solution after mountains of "talk time" and of couse they were helpful but what if I hadn't have had support, that is the warranty had run out? Hmmmmm.

So for this business we couldn't have anything like that and thus sold it to a gamer. The gamer changed the video card and shortly later the motherboard burned up. He brought the machine to us and we sent it to Sony and they said we did not have a Sony driver to drive the Nividia card and thus the machine wasn't under warranty. The kid threw the machine away and was our son's best friend. If I hadn't have sold it to him for 1/2 what we paid for it, I would have felt obligated to give him either all or 1/2 his money back. It was a lesson for us. :o(

There are more issues too like installing some piece of hardware and the machine didn't like it and on calling Sony they said there had to be a work around and then when we installed HDD's (media ones) and from time to time the VAIO would lose the drives :o( Sure we got it fixed after calling support but it's just things we don't like that are a pistol at 2.00a in the morning.

[Barry_Green]

If you want a new laptop get one with a cardbus and get the adapter.
My advice would be, if you want a new laptop, get one with both slots (CardBus and ExpressCard). Look at the Lenovo ThinkPad lineup, very inexpensive and top quality design and many of them (including my brand-new R61) have both CardBus and ExpressCard slots.

[Barry_Green]

My guess is that; ultimately Panasonic will begin to manufacture cameras with the memory that fits in the express card factor because the benefit of being able to pop that card into your laptop is too big to ignore. One day they will bite the bullet and announce the new format. I hope it's sooner than later personally.
I've been nagging them for that for over a year; I started calling it "P3". Then Duel came out with this product, and I think it points to such an obvious and simple solution that I can't understand how this won't come to be:
http://www.duel-systemsadapters.com/?productid=DP-0002

Seems like the obvious, ideal way to go. It's a CardBus adapter that takes ExpressCard cards and adapts them to work in CardBus slots. So you could develop a new ExpressCard "P3" system, and use the adapter to use them in all existing P2 products or CardBus laptops. Seems obvious. They will never abandon P2, but this "P3" idea would give them a natural migration path to support the ExpressCard system while maintaining full support for the CardBus system.

[drdimento]

My advice would be, if you want a new laptop, get one with both slots (CardBus and ExpressCard). Look at the Lenovo ThinkPad lineup, very inexpensive and top quality design and many of them (including my brand-new R61) have both CardBus and ExpressCard slots.

Barry, if you don't mind my prying, might it be then that you do all your editing on a laptop? Or, do you also have a desktop? Moreover, if the former, do you use an external drive for all media?

If at all possible, I'd like to put more money in a super hot laptop and have only a laptop and no desktop at all in this arrangement. BTW, thanks for the info on the EC to PCMCIA adapter at:

http://www.duel-systemsadapters.com/?productid=DP-0002

As that will probably be what I end up doing if a laptop can "do it all" so to speak. Also, imagine the P2 slot allowing this adapter with an Express Card in it? Is that a feasible idea? That is, could one get the PCMCIA to ExpressCard adaptor, put an ExpressCard in it, then plug it into the HVX200? Then pop the whole card out and put it in the laptop . . OR . . pop just the ExpressCard out of the adapter (leaving the adapter in the camera) and then have a PCMCIA to ExpressCard adapter in the laptop and thus plug it in and ??? Would this work? Have you tried it? BTW, I just bought an adapter at NewEgg for a lot less than the link above AND a 16 GB memory. I will use it as a solid state HDD. Next month I'm getting the 32GB wow is that going to be NICE :o) I also the one that came with the ExpressCard USB plug so that I can use it to transfer from the laptop to the desktop (for now).

[Barry_Green]

Barry, if you don't mind my prying, might it be then that you do all your editing on a laptop? Or, do you also have a desktop?
My desktop is ancient and outdated. I'm moving to an all-laptop world. But then again, I travel a preposterous amount, so that makes sense for me.

The laptop is crazy powerful as compared to my desktop. With the addition of the docking station, I intend for it to replace my desktop completely. The dock allows adding an additional SATA hard disk in an "internal" capacity. I've also got a whole bunch of external drives all over the place.

The idea is to keep the editing projects on external drives or in the dock's drive; then when travelling just pluck the system from the dock and go.

Also, imagine the P2 slot allowing this adapter with an Express Card in it? Is that a feasible idea?
That's exactly what it's designed for.

That is, could one get the PCMCIA to ExpressCard adaptor, put an ExpressCard in it, then plug it into the HVX200?
Sure. But it won't work. :) It would have to be specifically designed to be P2-compatible, and there's no expresscard on the market that's designed that way. But I do hope that Panasonic develops exactly that product.

[SUPADOG]

thanks barry for all these priceless info, it helps me a lot. i am building my workflow compeletly under your concept. i checked the lenovo r61 and customized it a bit :
ThinkPad R61 - 1 Year Depot Warranty
Intel Core 2 Duo processor T7500 (2.20GHz 800MHz 4MBL2)
[1] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#) Genuine (http://javascript<b></b>:ShowToolTip()) Windows Vista Home Premium[12] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#) 14.1 WXGA TFT Intel GMA X3100 GM965 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 (2 DIMM)

UltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad) 160GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm[4] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#) CD-RW/DVD-ROM, Ultrabay Enhanced[5] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#) ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wi-Fi wireless LAN Mini-PCIe US/EU/LA/ANZ[10] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#) 6 cell Li-Ion Battery[60] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#)
1 Year Depot/Express Warranty[7] (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/cart.workflow:add-e-coupon?CouponCode=#)



it is actually a little bit over my budget already, just want to know from your experience , is it capable for all the editing and post?
Not speaking in perfect english, but i am sure you would understand my concerns. thank you for your help.
keep up the good work.
thanks again.

[drdimento]

Barry thanks for your continued input on this subject of configuring for portable performace as it relates to cameras, storage, and workflow.

While we're on the subject of reviewing computers, how about this one as a comrade to the Levino?

HP8710W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834147512)

Or this one?

HP9750US (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834147559)

I especially like the pricing of the latter.

One last thought on this moble editing, what software do you use if you don't mind my asking? For us we feel that Edius will definately work on a laptop and we know that our version of Avid will not. We've seen Media Composer work on a laptop but that was on an Apple PowerBookPro outfitted to the hilt at about $6K. So, your thoughts/inputs on NLE software you've found successful on your laptop configuration would be extremely helpful and thanks in advance for your kind consideration of both the above computer considerations AND your software comment input. (BTW, 1/2 of what we do is mulitcam)

[Barry_Green]

it is actually a little bit over my budget already, just want to know from your experience , is it capable for all the editing and post?

Depends on what software you're planning to run on it, but a system like that could easily handle realtime HVX editing in EDIUS.

[Barry_Green]

I especially like the pricing of the latter.
The latter one doesn't have the right kind of card slot. I imagine either one would work, but you'd have to get a duel adapter or addonics adapter to use the second one.

One last thought on this moble editing, what software do you use if you don't mind my asking?
CS3, EDIUS, SpeedEdit, and Vegas. I've got 'em all. I keep meaning to migrate to CS3 for everything but I just haven't gotten there yet. Especially because Premiere Pro CS3 supports 4K, which makes it (someday) suitable for editing Red One footage. Vegas I'd walk away from except a) it's the editor I know best, and old habits are hard to break; and b) I keep thinking it'll be the best for EX1 stuff, if I ever have to work with EX1 footage; and c) it's just such a frickin' good editor. I wish Sony would never have bought 'em.

EDIUS runs fantastically on my Lenovo, including handling AVC-Intra in realtime.

I would NOT use Avid on any system other than a fully-certified Avid system. I originally tried Avid and after it quit working, two weeks later, Avid refused to assist me whatsoever because (heaven forbid) I was running XP Media Center Edition instead of XP Pro. So they just hang up on you. If I wanted to continue to use Avid, I'd have to format my hard drive and buy and re-install a new operating system. No thanks. So if you want to go with Avid, and you want to have any sort of technical support from them, you have to follow their recommendations to the letter and preferably buy an Avid-certified system.

I don't do any multicam stuff anymore so I haven't even looked at the multicam features of these software apps.

[drdimento]

Thank you so much Barry for you kind input. More and more we are relying on Edius just because it works. All too often we have "issues" that keep popping up with Avid. It's as though they just program a certain way and then if it's any other way "good luck," and as you say "we can't help. goodbye."

We liked SpeedEdit for sure but no muticam and that's a no for us. We have to have at least three cameras on our TV shows. Oh and ProCoder . . YES!

We have a PremeirPro CS3 trial but haven't loaded it yet so we'll see :o)

Thanks again. Sticking with our HVX200 for now and on the adapter, it's no problem as we like adapters because with the PCMCIA slot I can always use the ExpressCard with an adapter but conversely not so. I'd have to have a USB or Firewire solution or some wired form through the ExpressCard slot on the more expensive computer.