Being new in all...

[Dustin R. Rogan]

...I had a question, say we didn't get top 3, will we be able to find out what place the film got?

[Zak Forsman]

i've always wondered that... if the polling data would be made available to the filmmakers. i think a certain transparency is beneficial and useful in a number of ways. and dangerous in only a few.

[Dustin R. Rogan]

i don't necessarily care who voted for me I'd like to know what place I placed, is all lol

[William_Robinette]

Agreed.

[Barry_Green]

We've been down this path, we've tried it releasing all the data, and we've tried it where we announce only the winners. I'm not sure which way this fest will go, but we've been there and done that previously so if the festmasters decide not to release all the info, it'll be for time-tested reasons.

[Kholi]

If I recall right, we did that with horror fest and it actually made some people mad.

Didn't turn out to be a good thing but I may be remembering wrong.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Well, last fest they announced what seemed to be the top 5 or 6.
Maybe something like that would be fine.

It's all good though.

Cheers!

[Kegan]

I can see how it'd be a bad idea, but I also see the pros to releasing the data. What exactly happened when all the data was released Barry? Was there an outburst, did people shy away from the board or was it just not received well in general?

-Kegan

EDIT: Wow, I gotta start typing my posts faster..thanks Kholi and Mike.

[Zak Forsman]

i'm not advocating that the data be made public, but I would like it to be available to the filmmakers, who rarely get any kind of hard data to weigh against the public praise and somewhat restrained criticism. ten years ago, I worked in market testing for the major studios and I know there is a often a vast disconnect between what audiences say they admire in a film and what they'll actually recommend to their friends via word of mouth.

[Kholi]

In the spirit of the term "Fest" it actually seems to turn it into a "contest" instead. That's not exactly what it's about. To apply EVERYONE'S talent to a sliding scale or peer-themed voting stands to say "we don't like your work very much" when/if you see your film placed 50th out of 50 films.

The top three votes states "hey we loved these THE MOST out of the fest, but everyone rocked." When people place very low or some place exceptionally high it's misinterpreted as "not good enough" or "popularity contest".

It's a good idea in theory, just when you apply human reaction and it's unpredictability then it becomes not-so-good. Good thing is that the fest masters have tested and the reactions should be documented in Horror Fest.

[DJ Lewis]

If I recall right, we did that with horror fest and it actually made some people mad.

Didn't turn out to be a good thing but I may be remembering wrong.

And I think I remember the HVX being up for grabs added to that tension, causing folks to become pretty hostile....

[Kegan]

Agreed, but the prizes this time around aren't very much less. They're just as good and I think the hostility will return just as much if it's released. I still think releasing it to the filmmakers is in a way making it public...I don't see how we can benefit from it as much as everyone thinks. How would it make a filmmaker feel if he or she or their production team didn't get ANY votes, or placed dead last in almost 50 films. Maybe top 5/6 or MAX 10 would be beneficial, but nothing more.

-Kegan

[Zak Forsman]

if we're going to take hurt feelings into account, there should not be a vote at all. there is certain to be 45 or so disappointed filmmakers. but as in life, there are going to be winners and losers defined on the realities of skill, talent, personality, popularity, marketing and brown-nosing.

but even so, it's always the people who don't come in on top that have the opportunity to learn something from their intended audience, if they are smart and attentive. and these hard numbers (which again, should only be shared with filmmakers requesting it) offer a unique insight into how successful their entry was in inspiring "a vote" -- something that differs greatly from simply drawing praise.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Well, I'm not sure if all 50 places need to be shown but I think at least the top 5. Top 10 would be ideal.

If you don't make the top 10... you know you have some work to do, but you don't need to know exactly how much. :D

[Dustin R. Rogan]

i was thinking like zach, if maybe I could PM festmaster, and then to see after results of next fest in comparison how I did...make sense?

[Zim]

If you don't win you don't win. What's the point of finding out you came in 15th? Or 20th? Should we make this American Idol? Ok the top 24. Now we are down to 12.

Do they announce the 10th place vote getter for the Oscars? The top three and the panel awards should be good enough.

[DJ Lewis]

Yeah, I'm with you Kegan.... We now live in a time where "everyone is a winner," and everyone on the team gets a trophy.

Its great that we can take time to recognize each other's work; this is a great community. But that's not how the real world works.

Many of us would never be involved in the level of participation we are here at Dvxuser any where else. And the reason we are here is because we love what we do. We shouldn't be making films to get a pat on the back... There are much more cost effective, and less time consuming ways to do that.

[Zak Forsman]

Well, I'm not sure if all 50 places need to be shown but I think at least the top 5. Top 10 would be ideal.

If you don't make the top 10... you know you have some work to do, but you don't need to know exactly how much. :D
i don't think any ranking should be shown publicly. that's about satisfying ego for the filmmakers that did well. and will cause problems. i'm talking about giving the filmmakers access to data that could be useful to their development as filmmakers trying to connect with an audience in a meaningful way.


Many of us would never be involved in the level of participation we are here at Dvxuser any where else. And the reason we are here is because we love what we do. We shouldn't be making films to get a pat on the back... There are much more cost effective, and less time consuming ways to do that.

again, getting a "pat on the back" isn't why i'm hoping to have access to the numbers. that would be about satisfying one's ego and ego is dangerous. so that's why i'd prefer that NO RANKING BE PUBLICLY POSTED.... just that the entrants have private access to the data if they have a use for it.

[Dustin R. Rogan]

i think an innocent question is being blown outta proportion...I meant for data to be privately shown to filmmakers not publically...dang. To those whom want to know...not a mandatory showing of it

[DJ Lewis]

I get where you're coming from Zak, but isn't that what the individual film threads were for.... everyone's comments are far more valuable to me than a ranking

Dustin, I think we're all just passionate about the topic, I don't think anyone toes have been stepped on yet.. I hope

[Kegan]

Okay, initially I must have misunderstood. So this would ONLY be for the filmmakers that request this data? That makes more sense. If they really find some benefit in knowing what place they came in, then sure - whatever floats their boat. I wouldn't mind seeing either because I know that I'm not going to cry about what place my movie came in. On the other hand however, if like Mike said I don't happen to place somewhere in the top 10, I'll know for myself that I have some serious work to do and won't need to know my exact placement.

For the individuals that truly want the data, maybe it wouldn't be bad for them to request it and keep it and their opinions of it to themselves.

-Kegan

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

i don't think any ranking should be shown publicly. that's about satisfying ego for the filmmakers that did well. and will cause problems. i'm talking about giving the filmmakers access to data that could be useful to their development as filmmakers trying to connect with an audience in a meaningful way.



again, getting a "pat on the back" isn't why i'm hoping to have access to the numbers. that would be about satisfying one's ego and ego is dangerous. so that's why i'd prefer that NO RANKING BE PUBLICLY POSTED.... just that the entrants have private access to the data if they have a use for it.Well... they have posted more than the top 3 before. As recently as the last Fest.
That didn't seem to ruffle any feathers.

I'm fine with whatever they decide.

They seem to know what they are doing.

Good luck, guys!

Mike

[Zak Forsman]

I get where you're coming from Zak, but isn't that what the individual film threads were for.... everyone's comments are far more valuable to me than a ranking

the personal attention given by everyone who posted a critique is invaluable. there are insights expressed there that a number can't. but my experience working in motion picture marketing has taught me that there is often a very distinct disconnect between what people will publicly say about "what they like" and the decisions they will make.

years ago, i helped run "test screenings" of studio pictures and despite everything that the audience said about what they liked and what they didn't like, the most valuable information was whether they answered yes to "would you definitely recommend this to a friend". for me, it's the most informative and helpful bit of information i could garner from this experience as an aspiring filmmaker.

[Gohanto]

I'd like to see the rankings, even if its top 6 or top 10.

I'm guessing here, but I think most people here wouldn't turn down an offer to direct a $40 million dollar film given the opportunity. Which is to say, most people here want to make films people like and would pay to see. (I'm not talking about sell-outs, just making films that you AND the audience want). Rankings are the best source of money-where-your-mouth is results we've got to go off of.

This is especially true for films that are less conventional. My own silent film, for example, is different from most everything else and the comments are kinda all over the place as to what could've been improved about it. So does that mean the film's good FOR BEING a silent film or that it's just good in general. (Or crappy or worse than death, whatever you thought about it)

The only global perspective I can really get is from knowing how it ranked overall. Ranked in the top 6? People liked the style and made the movie just as enjoyable as movies with sound and color. Ranked 50th out of 50? Maybe people enjoyed it but just didn't think a movie without sound or color was worth recommending.

Either way, I learn something about the audience and what they like.

[Dustin R. Rogan]

like wanting to see what Baylor University is ranked nationally, in football...(a joke yes) but still curious to see

[Ben Sliker]

This has always been a touchy subject, mainly because the voting system was never set up to accurately gauge who got 17th vs. who got 25th, but just for a top 3 (I find that it's fairly accurate to around 6-8 places usually).

That being said, I love knowing what place we got, as you can see from my sig, It helped me gauge how quickly we were growing as filmmakers. The threads are a great resource to learn, but I still think there's a big difference between:

A. Comment - Your lighting needs a lot of work. Place - 50th of 50 films

AND

B. Comment - Your lighting needs a lot of work. Place - 25th of 50 films

Cause we are nice and pussyfoot around saying "there's nothing remotely interesting or redeemable about your film".

The same can be said of making it into the "top 10" You can have the same feedback as other films but have NO idea whether you are a horrible filmmaker, or a middle of the road, or approaching the top 10 ...



And in the interest of full disclosure, The sci-fest and horrorfest results were given out in a spreadsheet, i had to pm a mod for my spyfest result, and all hallows was a little easier.

[Cliff Wildman]

i think that data might be a little more useful for people if we were picking more than THREE films! if we could pick our top 10 to top 20 then you might get some value hearing you came in 23rd.

keeping that in mind, it seems like there are going to be a lot of ties from 15th place out. i don't see how that can be very helpful to people.

the threads are the true value in the fest, not the final ranking.

in the end those running the fests know the full history of what works and what doesn't and will make the best choice for the fest and the site.

[ilauzirika]

I don't mind if the data isn't released, but I really want to know how many people voted. It's a really important information IMO.

[DJ Lewis]

Have they ever told how many voted before?

[Simon Höfer]

Should be easy to tell with the automated votingsystem.