How do I set the HVX to shoot 1080p?

[e3graphics]

I'm sure this has been asked before, so please forgive me if I am rehashing old topics. I tried to do a search for it but could not find anything.

I am reading through the forums and am noticing that people are saying you can shoot in 1080p. The HVX manual doesn't seem to say anything about that.

What is the proper setting in the camera setup to put it at to record 1080p?

Is it 1080 24pA?

Thanks.

[David Jimerson]

Recording setup:

1080i/30p
1080i/24p
1080i/24pA

Those are all 1080p settings. That they say "1080i" is a source of frustration to many.

[StingrayPictures]

So what is the real scoop here? There must be a reason it says "1080i" on the menu. I've been trying to figure that one out, too. Is part of the pulldown step? I thought that the camera records 24 fps at the chip but then does a "pull-up" or whatever you want to call it at the recording source (P2 or Firestore). And if I'm correct, don't you have to do the pulldown manually in FCP or whatever? There are so many opinions about this that it's absolutely confusing...

[e3graphics]

Thanks for the reply.

So out of these:

1080i/30p
1080i/24p
1080i/24pA

Is 1080i/24pA the highest resolution the HVX can shoot?

I guess another way of asking is what resolution and frame rate does one need to set the camera at to achieve the pinnacle of clarity that is possible with the HVX?

[David Saraceno]

Well, wouldn't that depend as well on lighting, etc?

I don't see much difference in well shot stuff between 1080 anything and 720. Also, what is your intended delivery and on what NLE?

[e3graphics]

Lighting would definitely be a HUGE factor in the clarity.

The project I am working on is a sit down interview in a controlled environment with proper lighting.

I am editing in Vegas with Raylight. The final product will be put out on SD DVD and will also be shown on an HD projector in a meeting room/training room scenario.

I'm just trying to figure out if it would make any difference to shoot at 1080p vs 720p. Will there be a difference once it is burned to a SD DVD?

[Barry_Green]

No, by the time it gets to standard-def DVD there will be negligible difference between the two modes. In high-def, 1080 is about 20% sharper than 720. On standard-def it's not gonna make much difference.

[David Saraceno]

That's what I was wondering. If you intend to go from DVCProHD to SD DVD, then there are too many other variables that will obtain during the editing and encoding process beyond what you originally shoot at.

I would shoot in the easiest to ingest and edit, and that would be 720/p

[David Jimerson]

I would think that the reason it says "1080i" is because the codec requires that it be recorded that way. But it's not acquired that way.

In the raw, there's no spatial resolution difference between 24p (either pulldown) and 30p.

[John Froton]

Thanks for the reply.

So out of these:

1080i/30p
1080i/24p
1080i/24pA

Is 1080i/24pA the highest resolution the HVX can shoot?

I guess another way of asking is what resolution and frame rate does one need to set the camera at to achieve the pinnacle of clarity that is possible with the HVX?

With each of those settings the resolution will be the same -- 1080 vertical pixels -- so all are equal in that regard.

The frame rate will change the fluidity and smoothness of motion but will not make things sharper or more detailed. However, lowering the shutter speed (opening the shutter angle to a larger degree) will cause more motion blur and can tend to soften the image where there is movement.

I think the reason that the camera lists it's 24p and 30p progressive settings as 1080i is because the 24p and 30p data is embodied in a 1080i interlaced codec. It's up to your NLE and computer to construct the progressive final product from the interlaced video data.

The DVCPro HD codec can store video progressively in the 720 format but not in the 1080 format.

[Sprocketboy]

I believe there is no variable frame rate in 1080. Only using one of the 720 settings you can get the variable frame rate feature. So keep that in mind when you shoot.

[xmephestox]

so my real question is, CAN the hvx produce 1080p at all? because i've read different things that you can cinema tools ur footage and regain progressive footage of of the interlaced stuff. is that true? and if so how would i go about doing it?

[Sprocketboy]

I believe there is no variable frame rate in 1080.

I stand corrected. 1080 has variable frame rates, just fewer than in 720 mode.

And yes, there is a 1080i/24p mode. Its interlaced and the 24p has to be restored before editing using Cinema Tools. Never did it, but that is what I was told.

When I have a chance I'm going to try it. Especially now that the HD format war is basically over. HD deliverables will soon be a reality.

[David Jimerson]

YES. The HVX shoots real 1080p. It's recorded in an interlaced stream exactly the same way the DVX records its progressive footage in an interlaced stream. It's 1080p.

[dogman-x]

I stand corrected. 1080 has variable frame rates, just fewer than in 720 mode.

And yes, there is a 1080i/24p mode. Its interlaced and the 24p has to be restored before editing using Cinema Tools. Never did it, but that is what I was told.
Now that the format wars are over, 1080p content will probably ramp quickly.

Does anyone know if Panasonic will release new firmware to support 1080p/24pn, or is this fixed in hardware?

[Barry_Green]

Not possible in a DVCPRO-HD camera. Entirely possible in an AVC-based camera. Both the HPX3000 and the new HMC150 have 1080/24pN modes.

[Sprocketboy]

Not possible in a DVCPRO-HD camera. Entirely possible in an AVC-based camera. Both the HPX3000 and the new HMC150 have 1080/24pN modes.

Another good reason to get the HMC150. :laugh:

[dogman-x]

Not possible in a DVCPRO-HD camera.
According to the HVX manual: "The 720p/30pn and 720p/24pn formats are not included in the DVCPRO-HD recording format", but the HVX supports these native formats anyway, and most editors now accept it. Everything I've read seems to indicate that the HVX camera imagers are 1080 progressive, and interlacing is only added to be compatible with the recording format. So why couldn't they add 1080p/24pn with a firmware update? I realize this would affect the NLEs, but the HVX has done this before. There may be a good reason why 1080p/24pn isn't possible on the HVX, but I don't understand it yet.

If they can't do it with an HVX200 firmware update, then I hope they do it in the HVX200a. 1080i is fine for ATSC broadcast, but Blu-ray uses 1080p.

Note that the main issue with 1080i/24pa is the extra step in post. As Sprocketboy says: "the 24p has to be restored before editing using Cinema Tools". It would also be very useful to have all the VFX frames rates that the HVX does for 720p/24pn. The extra 20% recording time on P2 cards would also be a nice bonus.

[David Jimerson]

The DVCPRO HD 720 codec is inherently progressive, as there is only 720p, not 720i. The DVCPRO HD 1080 codec is interlaced.

[Barry_Green]

Note that the main issue with 1080i/24pa is the extra step in post.
What extra step? Every editor on the market (except Avid) understands 1080/24pA and strips out the pulldown automatically, transparently. There is no extra step. Even FCP can do it.

[David Saraceno]

What do you mean "even FCP can do it?"

Emphasis on "even."

:)

[Barry_Green]

Ah, yes, a little frustration eking out... :)

I mean that while FCP doesn't support everything about P2 as well as other editors do (no native MXF files, no exporting to an MXF file, etc) it can strip out 24pA pulldown on the fly, so if the editor with the least native support can do it, then certainly there's no justification for saying that there's an extra step involved!

[dogman-x]

I've heard that Avid is the only NLE that can put different video formats on the same timeline without any conversion. Is this true or just their marketing hype?

[David Jimerson]

Where do they "hype" this? It runs contrary to the way Avid actually works.

[Barry_Green]

Vegas has allowed you to put *any* format on the timeline for over four years now. You can put HD, and SD, and PAL, and NTSC, and 24P, and 30P, and 50i and 60i and animated .GIFs and Flash .SWF files and Photoshop PSD files all on the same timeline. You could put a 2fps .wmv and a 24fps .avi and a 59.94i .mov all on the same timeline. You could mix 4:3 and 16:9 and, well, if you had a 2.21:1 MPEG-2 file you could put that on there too. You could mix 720p and 1080p and 1080i, and if you had extended-definition 480/60p you could use that too.

The concept that Apple did something "revolutionary" with their "open timeline"? Poppycock. They got around to it three years after Vegas had it. And Avid? They can't even edit 1080/24p properly yet.

[dogman-x]

Where do they "hype" this? It runs contrary to the way Avid actually works.
http://www.avid.com/products/xpresspro/
"Only Avid Xpress Pro software allows you to combine video and film formats and resolutions in their native form, on the same timeline, in real time."

[David Jimerson]

If that's supposed to be taken at face value, it's a bald-faced lie. Their "learn more" link wasn't any more clear as to what they mean.

I'm actually downloading the 5.8 upgrade now. If it doesn't represent a fundamental change in the way Avid works, then this is preposterous in two respects -- Barry points out that other software does it and has for years, and also . . . Avid doesn't do that. As of Xpress Pro 5.5/5.6, Avid transcodes everything to Quicktime and kicks a fit when you try to feed it anything that's not the resolution/timebase of the timeline.

In the words of Mr. Scott, "I'll let ye know."

[TedRR]

I've heard that Avid is the only NLE that can put different video formats on the same timeline without any conversion.

I'd give AVID a "Speedy" visit to NewTek's SpeedEDIT booth if they were even showing up at NAB.
Maybe this is why they couldn't show thier face because of claims like this. :)

[StingrayPictures]

I'm referring to the original question here...I've shot and edited '1080i 24p' no problem (elementary, yes)...When is the pulldown happening? Is it already pulling down when I'm playing it in the timeline? The DVD of my short film definitely looks '24p'. Is there a better way of treating this footage? Do I do something extra to the footage and cut it in a 23.98 timeline? DVD's are progressive (right?), but something makes me think that I'm cutting an interlaced product and then putting it to disc, which means I've downgraded the intention of the look before finishing it. Sorry if this is elementary by message board standards, but reading all of the arguments sometimes can make anyone second guess what they think they know...

[Barry_Green]

If you've been using Avid, then yes that's what you've been doing. 1080/24p puts in 2:3 pulldown as the footage is recorded. You then edited in Avid on a 1080/60i timeline, which maintains the pulldown, and you probably then outputted a 480/60i final render, which again maintained the pulldown.

DVDs can be purely 24p progressive or they can be 59.94i interlaced; they support both.

Had you edited in, well, any editor other than Avid -- you could have used 1080/24pA, and cut everything on a purely progressive 1080/24p timeline. You then could have output a 480/24p master version in MPEG-2 format and authored that directly on the DVD. No interlacing whatsoever, just pure progressive all the way. You also would be able to fit 20% more footage on your disc, or use a higher-quality encode, because 24P footage takes up less space than 60i footage does.

[dogman-x]

I'm looking to get into HD and HVX/P2 seems the best in it's price range, but there are obviously issues with the NLE. I'm currently running an old version of Adobe Premiere Pro, so it looks like I'll to have buy new software for P2 compatibility anyway. Since there seems to be issues with Avid and 1080pa, what NLE software would you guys recommend for a Windows PC computer?

[David Jimerson]

Best compatibility with P2 is Edius Broadcast. Second best is Premiere Pro CS3. Vegas with Raylight is the most cost-effective; brilliant with 720p, a few hiccups with 1080.

[John Froton]

I've got both Edius Broadcast and Premiere Pro CS3 and I prefer Premiere Pro. Maybe it's just that I've been using Premiere longer but it seems to offer more depth in what it can accomplish as well as providing integrated high-end monitoring and capturing through OnLocation and sophisticated DVD/Blu-ray authoring with the included Encore.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it difficult at times to do things in Edius that I am used to doing in Premiere.

[Barry_Green]

If you already know Premiere, stick with Premiere Pro.

[alexdias]

I've been using with FCP and it's quite a good fit.
Of course that's the case if you are running on a Mac.

[dogman-x]

I'm actually downloading the 5.8 upgrade now. If it doesn't represent a fundamental change in the way Avid works, then this is preposterous in two respects...

In the words of Mr. Scott, "I'll let ye know."
Any news?

[xmephestox]

ok so i've done some test footage w/ 1080i/24p, what is the workflow for me to get 1080p footage out of it? so far i just loaded it in final cut, and i get bad interlacing and artifacting in my footage. do i just take off the 2:3:3:2 pulldown off it? or do i add? i am clueless on this, so if anybody can help me out, i'm really interested in getting 1080p out of the hvx.

[David Jimerson]

Any news?

I've had some install issues which I hope to get sorted out soon.

[Barry_Green]

ok so i've done some test footage w/ 1080i/24p, what is the workflow for me to get 1080p footage out of it?
Do not shoot 1080/24p, Apple doesn't support removing that pulldown. Shoot 1080/24pA if you want to work with FCP.

With 1080/24pA, you just click the "remove duplicate frames upon import" checkbox, and when Apple ingests the footage it stores it on your hard disk as a pure straight 1080/24p file with no pulldown.

[xmephestox]

thanks barry, i'll test that out this weekend.