SUGGESTIONS ON: Giving And Receiving Criticism

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

EDIT: Originally posted for LOVE FEST 02/08.

First off, this is more Jack the 9 fest vet talking to you rather than Jack the Mod.
So unlike some stickies,these are not rules so much as suggestions.

Suggestions vs. rules because we're all for freedom of expression. BUT, we also want people to have a good time and to encourage filmmakers.

So while you're still free to say "Your movie sucks" © Jeremy Hyler :grin:

... we can probably do a bit better. Remember this is a filmmaking community. :beer:

This guide has not come about due to a widespread problem with giving and receiving criticism,
but more to enhance the experience for filmmakers and fest participants of varying experience levels
(read: so you can learn from my mistakes) :)

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

GIVING CRITICISM

Your criticism is important. Saying what you don’t like about a movie or pointing out what could have been better is essential in the growth of the filmmaker.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GIVING CRITICISM AND DOING SOMETHING ELSE:
There’s no such thing as overly critical. But there is such a thing as rude.

If your criticism is peppered with “worst film ever” “the dumbest” “the most retarded” “absolutely atrocious” “completely horrible” “what the hell were you thinking dumbass?” Then you are probably coming from a less than constructive place, and not showing the proper respect for a real filmmaker, i.e. anyone that gets up of their Dunder and Miffilin and actually goes out and makes a film – we all know what an achievement that is and it warrants respect, lots of it.

Lots of hyperbole and negative adjectives, particularly absolutes like worst, and dumbest ever, are probably neither accurate nor necessary.

BE SPECIFIC
So you thought it sucked. Why? Saying you thought it sucked in no way helps the filmmaker or promotes an interesting discussion. If you just say it sucked how will they know what to fix next time? Try and offer information as to where, what and why: what specific elements at what moments, and why did they not work.

GOOD WITH THE BAD
There was nothing good about this movie. Really? Nothing? AT ALL? You can’t find one single thing the filmmaker did well or competently? Nothing. Wow you’re a very tough date.

If you have some hard knocks for the filmmaker why not mention at least ONE thing that was good. Not asking you to lie. But surely there is something if not subjectively (to your taste) then objectively that was good. Like great sound. Technical excellence. A nice dolly shot. That one incredible actor. The way one scene was blocked. … this isn’t about bullshi*. It’s about the fact that almost every film does something right and the filmmaker needs to hear that also.

JUST PRAISE
So you loved it. Great. If you all you have time for is “I loved it” then say that. Ideally it’s good to be specific with your praise just like your criticism. Telling them why you loved it will help them be a better filmmaker. BUT … don’t you dare not post because you don’t have time to write a bunch of stuff. While we encourage specificity and detail which will help the filmmaker make a better next film, still stop by and say you loved it if you did. That will help them to actually attempt the next film at all.

But again ideally try to be specific with your praise: what worked and why.

CONVINCING & DEBATING
Please. Do not get into convincing someone that they are wrong and you are right. If you have left your criticism and they are not responsive to it, move on. It's their thread and they don't have to agree with you. If you adhere to only one of these suggestions please make it this one. Don't go over and over things if it seems unwelcomed or if the filmmaker is unresponsive. State your criticism and move on. Be attentive to how receptive or not the filmmaker is to in depth discussion. If they are into it and it's a good discussion, great, if not, move on.

FINALLY
Try to be specific and helpful. Give a positive note when you can. Pretend you are in a room full of people with the filmmaker sitting on a stage. If you wouldn’t say it in that context don’t say it here.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

RECEIVING CRITICISM:

Easy right? You just sit back and agree with the people who think you are a genius and tell the other folks they’re too dumb to understand your vision. Not quite. Take it from me ...

I’ve had fests that were the best experiences of my life and some much less so. The biggest factor was how I handled criticism and interacted with the posters.

You will have a better time, learn more, and look like a really cool balanced dude (or chick) even if you’re not, if you can follow some of this battle earned advice.

YOU DON’T HAVE TO RESPOND TO EVERY POST
As a much wiser Mod once told me (*cough* *cough* Isaac Brody) you don’t have to respond to every post. Some more combative posts may be better left ignored. For the posts which require a response and the ones you just feel a need to respond to … read on …

DEFENDING YOUR BABY/ GETTING INTO A FIGHT
In the book “The Ultimate Film Festival Survival Guide” (link (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Film-Festival-Survival-Guide/dp/1580650570)) the advice given to filmmakers at a festival talk back is to basically be funny and answer questions. DO NOT … do not get into defending your movie. If you defend your movie, you will only look … well … defensive … makes sense right? This doesn’t mean you hold your movie out at the end of your arm like a stinky diaper. You can stand by the choices you made. You can love your movie. You can think it’s perfect without ever defending it.

If you get a commenter that makes a general criticism about how stupid your ideas are, thank them for their feedback and move on. In fact the harsher and more inappropriate the criticism the more polite you should be.

AUDIENCE: “I’ve seen all of your movies and they all suck. You couldn’t write your way out of a paper bag. I wish I had the 1 minute of my life back I spent watching your movie. I had to stop it then before I barfed on my computer. Pathetic.”

FILMMAKER: “Wow. Thanks for taking the time to at least try to watch my film, lol, and for sharing your passionate comments. Sorry it wasn’t your cup of tea.”

ATTEMPTING TO INVALIDATE THEIR EXPERIENCE vs. HAVING A DISCUSSION.
So I said DO NOT defend. What I mean by this is don’t try to convince the poster that they are wrong. Even if their criticism is based on something you felt was out of your control or was the best you could do under the circumstances.

When the audience watches the film they don’t know and don’t care that the only take where the actor really cried was the one where an extra tripped and fell down in the background, so you had to decide if it was too distracting to see the mailman fall in the background or see the real emotion of the woman reading the letter he just delivered. They also don’t know that you only had one hour to shoot the scene and your monitor with enough resolution to see if she was crying or not broke that morning.

Sharing these behind the scenes limitations and compromises can be fine. But be careful. They can merge over into trying to convince someone that their experience isn’t valid because they don’t know what your choices were or what you had to go through to get the shot you had to use.

If this kind of discussion will be helpful then share it. But acknowledge the criticism as valid first especially if you agree with it. “I can see how you could say that. Unfortunately the only takes we had …” (don’t necessarily agree) or “D’oh. Yeah I hate that too. Unfortunately the only choices we had were …” (agree and it’s been bugging you too).

If you get the sense that the criticism is coming from someone that’s just trying to take the wind out of your sails, then ignore them or thank them and move on.

CONVINCING & DEBATING
If someone won't let up about something to the point it's annoying, i.e., posting over and over and or giving you unasked for lessons, try to ignore it. If you can't do that contact a Mod. Try not to take the bait.

FINALLY
Remember their experience is valid. You don’t have to respond to every post. Avoid an argument over why they are wrong or don’t understand. Explain or make excuses only if it seems like the discussion will be of benefit. The nastier or more personal they are, the more polite and grateful for their feedback you are.

[Jared Meyer]

Holy smokes this is helpful. Thanks, Jack! :thumbsup:

[Kholi]

That's exactly why I didn't go and do my long reviews in the last fast. I just didn't have the time.

=D This fest should be different.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Heheh, yeah, my feeling on it is don't leave "hated it" review without specifics.

But if you can't do a long review and you loved it. I think it's better to say that than nothing. Like I said in my long windbag posts above, specific negative and positives help you make a better film ... non specific positives still at least help you make any film ever again ... in other words serve to motivate you.

So I hope the above doesn't seem daunting. If absolutely all you have time for is "Holy crap that was great" I think that's ok, even though positives rev's with some detail are best in a perfect world ... but who lives in a perfect world.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Nicely done! :thumbup:
I would go into more detail but I don't have time.

:D

[Robert Eldon]

Jack,

Very well said. I know that I always appreciate constructive critique and the cast and crew that worked on the film appreciate it as well!

I hardly ever have time to post a review to everyone, and I wish I did. Maybe just a few words will do this time?

Kholi, I remember your verbose reviews and really appreciate the time you took to mention things in detail!

Looking forward to some response to our film. Thank you all!

[Zak Forsman]

worst. thread. ever.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

lol :grin:

[Kholi]

Jack,

Very well said. I know that I always appreciate constructive critique and the cast and crew that worked on the film appreciate it as well!

I hardly ever have time to post a review to everyone, and I wish I did. Maybe just a few words will do this time?

Kholi, I remember your verbose reviews and really appreciate the time you took to mention things in detail!

Looking forward to some response to our film. Thank you all!

=D 50+ Competes/Non Competes... but I'm gonna stop by every single one this go around.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I'm glad you said that Kholi ... this thread was really all about you and how you broke my heart last fest. :crybaby: :grin:

[Kholi]

I'm glad you said that Kholi ... this thread was really all about you and how you broke my heart last fest. :crybaby:

Dude. I'm sorry! LOL. Seriously, everyone's gettin' hit.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

just kidding mang :D

[bosindy]

didn't we talk about this earlier today? good advice Jack, couldn't agree more.

[Kyle Stebbins]

yeah this thread blows. get a life, jack.

[Marlon Ladd]

Being able to take and evaluate "constructive" criticism is how we grow. I can't tell you how helpful some of the critiques I had on my last movie were. Once you get over the fact that it's not a personal attack you allow yourself to be much more objective about your project and receptive.

[Danielleus]

Being able to take and evaluate "constructive" criticism is how we grow. I can't tell you how helpful some of the critiques I had on my last movie were. Once you get over the fact that it's not a personal attack you allow yourself to be much more objective about your project and receptive.


Agreed wholeheartedly. Keep the constructive criticisms alive and coming.

[KenV]

I'm not a video guy so I don't have to fake/front/make excuses for my comments on this board, jk, this is my first festival that I've been a part of, so I'll try to keep my insignificant audio guy comments on the downlow. I'll be looking, err rather listening to others films on what i think, but I'm never right and no one ever is, to the best sounding films in my opinion.

And best sounding doens't necessarily include the most "meaningful, haunting, great sounding" soundtrack, but rather overall believable sound.

Best of luck to all of you,

KenV

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I'm not a video guy so I don't have to fake/front/make excuses for my comments on this board, jk, this is my first festival that I've been a part of, so I'll try to keep my insignificant audio guy comments on the downlow. I'll be looking, err rather listening to others films on what i think, but I'm never right and no one ever is, to the best sounding films in my opinion.

And best sounding doens't necessarily include the most "meaningful, haunting, great sounding" soundtrack, but rather overall believable sound.

Best of luck to all of you,

KenVComments like "sound sucks" are very useful!

:thumbsup:

[KenV]

So far i've posted my honest comments in the individual film forums, and I'm not a video guy, but I've received backlash for what I said/typed. Since this is my first fest that I am a part of, as a what I would call an everyday normal "viewer," I have already received backlash for what i've said/typed.

I know nothing about film. Maybe this hurts me or really hurts me, (especially professionaly) in the eyes of this board, but from the posts I've seen it seems like many are "masking" their opinions. I just joined this board and want to be an active voice. I want to be a voice of truth to the everyday viewer. Maybe I should just go back to the Pro Tools Users Conference Forums where I belong, and let you video guys have at it.

Either way, I've enjoyend most of the films on here, and I wish you all the best.

KenV

[Maximus]

KenV,

I hope you stick around and keep on truckin with the honest feedback. Fresh blood is sometimes a good thing. I don't feel your comments, at least the one's I've read, to be malicious. Filmmakers gotta hear the truth, even if the truth sometimes hurts. No two people are going to have the exact same reaction to any film.

I do sometimes sense a little of that "old man's club" vibe on this forum, you pat my back I'll pat yours, but that really doesn't help anyone improve. Acknowledgment is great, but honesty is usually the best policy.

A good rule of thumb is to put yourself in their shoes before writing something that might be taken the wrong way. Artistic types can be sensitive! :evil:

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Ken it's simple.

You've told one guy his "sound sucked." And another guy "can you say 'loopty lou' in a bad way?" the latter of which sounds a bit "can you say condescending", and that's just in the few posts I've reviewed.

This is not a scolding of you in anyway ... just telling you what is going on, how those comments are received, and why you are getting flack :thumbsup:

If you read the first posts in this thread you might get why some members bristle at comments such as the above. Are they against the rules? No. But are they helpful or polite? No.

How does "sound sucked" help the filmmaker. Try "not very professional" "poor" or "very bad" AND "here's what my issues were with it and try this in the future."

You can say sucked if you want, sure, but if your gonna be that guy say why. (though granted their's not much why to go into on an obvious loop)

Again, would you stand up at a mic in a hushed audtitorium, with the filmmaker and festival director sitting on the stage and say "your sound sucked" and sit back down. Maybe the answer is yes ... and if that's the case ... well ... I won't comment further on that scenario :shocked:

And again, as stated in the first posts of the thread there's no such thing as over critical. Just rude. These guys worked hard on their films, often wearing many many hats out of necessity. So it's not a lot to ask to find a less cavalier way to word things and if bluntness is your style then follow it up with reasons.

However, you're free to go on posting as you have, these are suggestions. But you'll probably continue to receive flack.

And having said that, partly since these are a learning experience for everyone, I do hope you will stick around and continue to offer your unique perspective in whatever way you see fit.

:beer:

[Hunter007]

I wish I'd seen this thread earlier, as Ken seemed to have good intentions before the viewing of the movies. Like JDS said, the manner you went about giving your criticism was a little harsh and not very well supported.

Granted, all feedback is appreciated, hopefully you don't mind getting some as well. Good post Jack...don't know how I missed it earlier.

-Kegan

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

lol, yeah I just realized this is "criticism on criticism"

[Zak Forsman]

personally, when I post feedback, I know that "pointing at problems" is fairly useless as a critique. anyone can do that. and it's a little careless. I haven't experienced this in my own thread for IFHY, thank god. but i've seen it elsewhere. I don't know, I think we owe it to the filmmakers, who have put themselves out there to be judged, to always makes sure we offer possible solutions when we perceive a problem.

[Kholi]

Feedback is dangerous.

[Zak Forsman]

Feedback is dangerous.

ergo, "feedback" is your middle name?

[Kholi]

Hey Man!!!

I got told I was nitpicking. I almost STOPPED because it seemed like I'm makin' people feel bad and it's not my intent. Even when you're giving out very thoughtful feedback you stand to get bitten in the rear-end.

=P

[Zak Forsman]

kholi, that sucks. i guess one man's "nitpicking" is another's "being specific". i've read nearly all of your critiques and they are some of the most useful posts in the whole fest. as caffesse would say, please carry on...

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Kholi your posts seem good to me too. Harsh sometimes, but not unecessarily or inappropriately at all.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

Kholi your posts seem good to me too. Harsh sometimes, but not unecessarily or inappropriately at all.I agree completely. As long as you explain your criticisms... that's fine with me.

Cheers,

Mike

[Kholi]

Kholi your posts seem good to me too. Harsh sometimes, but not unecessarily or inappropriately at all.

That's kinda my point. I'm not using any harsh language, it's harsh because I'm honest with my thoughts. It seems like it's really just better to say "good job" and move on.

Or, just say nothin' at all.

There's a lot of just commenting on the good ones or a friends short, which is why a lot of people who spent time workin' on their shorts have threads that are on page 4. Nobody has said anything.

So! I think in the future I'm gonna follow everyone elses lead and say nothing at all, just comment on the ones I think are good. Stay out of hot water, betterish.

[ecking]

It's funny the only reason this thread needs to exist is because we're on the internet. In real life people don't pull that kind of sh*t at fests. People need to realize just because this is the internet doesn't mean it's not a real fest, I mean looking at the f**king awesome prizes!

Nice thread.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

That's kinda my point. I'm not using any harsh language, it's harsh because I'm honest with my thoughts. It seems like it's really just better to say "good job" and move on.

Or, just say nothin' at all.

There's a lot of just commenting on the good ones or a friends short, which is why a lot of people who spent time workin' on their shorts have threads that are on page 4. Nobody has said anything.

So! I think in the future I'm gonna follow everyone elses lead and say nothing at all, just comment on the ones I think are good.

Don't do that (give up). People need to read the receiving section too. I think you usually find something good to say in your posts also. Maybe make sure you do that too, but other than that not much you can do.

I think most people appreciate reviewers like you that take your time to be specific.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I posted in every thread. Mostly positive... but usually with a few negative comments. I wouldn't bash the guy over something he's already been told a hundred times though.

A recent critique I received was on some of the acting. As the Director I took that as my responsibility and agreed. Now when someone disagrees with a storyline... they may not always find agreement. I mean, if you conform your initial ideas for everyone... what are you left with? Some people will like it, some won't. I'm cool with that.

Kholi, you are more than welcome to bash my movie as long as you back it up.
:D

Cheers!

Mike

[Zak Forsman]

I mean, if you conform your initial ideas for everyone... what are you left with?

good point. a filmmaker wiser than myself once said that if you try to make a film for everyone, you're really making it for no one in particular.

[Geoff_R]

...I think most people appreciate reviewers like you that take your time to be specific.
Yea, Kholi, it's rare that people actually take the time to give in-depth feedback and that's what everyone needs and craves. I guarantee you that your reviews have resulted in people on these boards making better films. Some people know their strengths and weaknesses, others don't, and when they can hear an objective interest, it often gives them a better understanding of how to improve their next film.

[Mark Harris]

Who called Kholi nitpicking? I love his reviews as some of the most helpful out there. Who called him nitpicking? I'll murder the guy.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Here's an example of some great feedback.

Unfortuntely it was deleted by the original poster after taking the time to really think about the film he was reviewing because he was attacked for being overly critical.

We need to keep reviews like this coming. They take time and thought and should not be shat upon.

.... Fantasy Filmish! Great way to take advantage of the THEME.

And fantasy/sci-fi is somethin' I Loveish. I gotta say, this is probably the best art direction I've seen so far. It looks like a fantasy [edited by Jack] would. And the locations are really nice. This is becoming a trend, actually: nice locations. People are listening to each other and that's really good.
All honest praise. Even ENTHUSIASM.

Note the use of the word BEST to describe the art direction?

As much as I love the art direction, cinematography I feel that the performances were a little to "heavy" for my tastes. It felt like they were pushing lines a little too hard, and it made it come off as forced. As well, as far as the story itself goes, the plot's there: guy's searchin' for [edited by Jack]. He's gotta get past [edited by Jack] and then the obstacles and in the end finds him. Got it. Somehow between the interior and then exterior scene, they don't mesh well. Like they're both excerpts from a longer movie and there's information missing. I know it's a short, what I think I might be trying to say is it's too big for the kiddie pool?

Well thought out and presented without hyperbole or harsh adjectives.

What Crane were you using? Have you seen any of [edited by Jack] work? We're always using a crane for everything, I see that's similar to what you've done here.

A commiseratey tone speaking filmmaker to filmmaker who enjoys using similar technical element.

Sometimes, though, the motion was jerky and really took me out of the shot. Did it have a pan and tilt head on it?
Points out ONE technical difficulty. This is a filmmaking forum with its roots in technical aspects of filmmaking that is becoming more and more about the art of filmmaking. But this is something people would talk bout here. Probably not at Sundance, but here, yes.


It's solid visually and has great cinematic moments. I think it may be too large for a short, however.

Ends with summation of the broader positive moments and a broader evaluation of where he thought the story problems were.

This is not a nit picking review. It's straight forward and honest and a fine example of a review.

[J.R. Hudson]

I've always been known to give proper critiques.

(Runs and ducks out of the room)

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I've always been known to take criticism well
(runs for cover)

lol you're harsh sometimes, but not innapropriate that I've scene.

[Kholi]

I can't say how invaluable it is to have people that aren't just audience members but fellow filmmakers actually looking at your short and detailing thoughts. There are HUNDREDS of people in your life that you can show your work to whom are NOT filmmakers and won't have the same technical inclinations active when viewing. I mean, when I go to a theater I pick things up along the way, I'm not watching for them. But, my girlfriend doesn't do that. It's ingrained, and pretty much not going anywhere.

This is the chance to grab information in a more academic environment. One that NONE OF US are paying a DIME for. You can learn from your peers on what's working, why it isn't, what can make it better so that next time around... well, you know. And, that's not to say that you MUST CONFORM to every other filmmaker's standards. The fact is that you now know and you can better judge decisions on what works for an audience and perhaps not just yourself.

Yeah, you make movies that you would like to see, but I'd like to think that everyone wants to make something that a majority can enjoy watching. And enjoy REwatching at a later date.

[Blaine]

I would HATE to see a fest without your WELL THOUGHT OUT critiques, Kholi...no matter what side of them I'm on. Whether or not I agree with everything you say in a critique, I never find them to be personal or have any agenda other than helping your fellow filmmakers. :thumbsup:

[KenV]

Ok, so yeah, I guess I said some things harshly, that's my fault, I guess I was more in the moment at the time. I simply had to know the line. I'm not perfect, expecially when it comes to my "chosen" specialty, and I don't claim to be the best, even though thats what comes off in most of my posts, but I just had to say what I was feeling.

I'm still watching some vids, cuz I really do find it entertaining watching everyone's efforts. It gives me perspective in many ways. And I'll continue to post in the future, though not so brashly.

And If I gave you bad critism such as the "sound mix sucks," umm, I guess it just wasn't done well in my biased opinion. And to those I gave praise, I really did mean it.

Thanks,

I'll catch you all later.

KenV

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Thanks Ken. Really cool for you to say all that.

[Brian Parker]

I am slowly working my way through all of the films and plan to leave a comment in every thread. It might seem like I always start with "good film" or end with "great job" but that's because I have genuinely not seen a film that I thought was bad so far. I do try and leave very specific feedback about what I thought worked and anything I think didn't.

I haven't received any reviews or critiques that I felt were inappropriate of harsh but I have seen one or two in my travels through the threads. I've been lucky enough to receive what felt like good, honest feedback, criticism and advice which I'm ecstatic about because I'm getting the inside track on what I can specifically work on to become a better filmmaker. This is gold Jerry!

So for Kholi and others, please continue to post your reviews. I know I'm knew to this forum but I have already seen the immense levels of talent around here and I consider it an honor and a privilge to receive this kind of advice.

[Luis Caffesse]

Couldn't agree with you more Champloo.
The feedback is really what this is all about - I know I've learned a ton from what people have been telling us about our film.
And I mean both what they liked and what they didn't like.

If it was all pats on the back, I woudln't be learning anything.
This whole experience has really been invaluable - and its the users who take the time give the thought out responses to the films that really make it that way.

And thought out doesn't always mean lengthy.
We've gotten more than one comment that may have only been a sentence long that still managed to open our eyes to something we hadn't been able to see ourselves.

[Zak Forsman]

I miss Kholi's reviews. He was knocking them down one by one -- moving through the list from top to bottom like a threshing machine on a tank full of ether. i read every one of his critiques. and I was looking forward (with cautious optimism) to his impressions of IFHY. but he stopped (and we all now why) when he was only two entries away from mine. this is a minor tragedy folks. and I imagine a lesson was learned.

Kholi..... :beer::beer::beer:

[Kholi]

LOL> I'm gonna start up again today.

[Ted Arabian]

Just catching up on this thread and see the mention of Kholi and his reviews.

I am a huge fan of Kholi's reviews. The time and energy he takes to provide one with his insight is so impressive. His opinions are so valid. And often he finds things that no other person has commented on.

Just as Zak has stated above, I, too, go around and read all of Kholi's reviews. I learn so much from them.

And as Zak as stated, I was so looking forward to his comments on my film. I actually wrote Kholi and ASKED him for his review. Something that I have never done before but that is how much they have meant to me in the past. (For "anyone" else here who is thinking... "hmmm, you just asked ME for a review!"... you are the SECOND person that I have ever asked for a review from! Because, I value YOUR insights as well)

Anyway, the feedback IS why I do these film festivals. It is so invaluable and I hope that I have shown to some that their critiques from festivals in the past ARE being implemented.

Kholi... I know that you are out there. We miss you, man! :beer:


.........


EDIT...... Kholi just appeared! Woo Hoo!!!

[Luis Caffesse]

I actually wrote Kholi and ASKED him for his review.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one who did that.
:)

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

Closing - everything's been looked at from every angle pretty much.
Moving/Moved to Time Fest.