Next model after hvx200?

[Cinemano]

Hello

I own the hvx200 with firestore.. Here's my question:

Shall i wait for the next hvx model or get the Ex1? (i love resolution, even more than low compression)

How long before we can expect a hvx300/hvx200b to match the ex1's cmos?

Would be cool to have both: 100 mbs 4:2:2 with FULL 1920 CCD.
(actually thats what i thought i was buying when i got the hvx200, clever campaigning)

[lawriejaffa]

Yup i mean res is cool bro, but you wouldnt want a 10mg compact over a 6mg slr hehe (thats not an anology for the EX and hvx) but just a point that i think folk get way too spiced about res alone.

Anyway my friend if res is what your into then go for the EX ;) I don't think we'll be seeing any HVX with cmos in the future.

[Barry_Green]

Nobody knows when a new product is coming. If one were to make an educated guess, you'd have to say April is the next window of "news" to come out, at the NAB show. Companies frequently announce products at the major trade shows, including NAB and IBC etc. I think NAB is the next show up, and that's about three months away.

[gunleik]

Would be cool to have both: 100 mbs 4:2:2 with FULL 1920 CCD.
(actually thats what i thought i was buying when i got the hvx200, clever campaigning)

Agreed. And 10 bit hd-sdi!

BUT you're not talking about dvcpro-hd here. probably avc-i, and with the current polycy it seems unlikely that Panny is going to release an avc-i cam in the HVX market.

What I feel about that?

Look @ my sig :)

Gunleik
---
who btw is not implying that Red is the HVX 300 by any means...

[Derrick_SA]

Which ever way, I REALLY hope the follow up is still DVCPRO HD, it is an awesome codec !!!

- Derrick

[David Saraceno]

Would be cool to have both: 100 mbs 4:2:2 with FULL 1920 CCD.
(actually thats what i thought i was buying when i got the hvx200, clever campaigning)

Clever in what way?

Is there some issue you have with the video quality?

[TheRealMe]

Would be cool to have both: 100 mbs 4:2:2 with FULL 1920 CCD.
(actually thats what i thought i was buying when i got the hvx200, clever campaigning)

Same with me. Even after lurking on this forum for 2 years, I was still mislead...

[Tzedekh]

I don't think we'll be seeing any HVX with cmos in the future.I would have to agree, though I don't know why Panasonic doesn't use CMOS in any of its cameras, consumer or pro. I'd like to think that there are technical and aesthetic reasons, such as they won't implement a rolling shutter. But in a cheap consumer camera? Instead they are using three really tiny, pixel-shifting CCDs.

No, I don't expect Panasonic to use a radically different imager any time soon. Sony may be innovating, but not thoroughly enough. The Sony EX has half-inch chips but a fixed lens, and the chips have a rolling shutter. The new HDV models have an interchangeable lens but third-inch rolling-shutter chips. And all of these cameras use long GOP. Panasonic has a real opportunity here. But then I catch myself drifting off into some fantasy world. Sure, we'd all like Panasonic to market GREEN One for well under $10K, but that's probably not a high priority for Panasonic. We'll be lucky to see an incremental improvement to the HVX. By the way, wasn't the HVX announced nearly three years ago?

[Barry_Green]

It was announced in Apr. 2005, and began delivering in Dec. 2005. So it's been on the market for barely two years. But it was discussed/announced 8 months prior to that.

[Kit Hannah]

Well, If Pani introduces a new camera at NAB, I sure as hell hope they don't wait to come out with it til the end of the year...

And I hope it doesn't have any vingette problems...or rolling shutter problems...or....oh wait, that was Sony....Oops, my bad. :engel017:

I want to hear (in a loud booming voice), Panasonic say "We have come out with the HPX (or HVX) 300. It is perfect and it starts shipping tomorrow. By the way, we now have 64 GB P2 cards and they will be $64 each".

[Sumfun]

Well, If Pani introduces a new camera at NAB, I sure as hell hope they don't wait to come out with it til the end of the year...



If Pani doesn't have a camera ready, I think they will do exactly this just to get people to put off buying the EX1 and wait for the new camera.

[RWM]

I want to hear (in a loud booming voice), Panasonic say "We have come out with the HPX (or HVX) 300. It is perfect and it starts shipping tomorrow. By the way, we now have 64 GB P2 cards and they will be $64 each".
What did you smoke? :D :thumbsup: ;)

[gunleik]

Clever in what way?

Is there some issue you have with the video quality?


Clever marketing in the sense that the imager data was first released after 3 tests concluded that the imager couldn't be 1080, even though Panny clearly markedet the cam initially in a way that made one think it was a "native 1080 imager", not "native 1080 internal processing". If it wasn't misleadikng, it was close enough for jazz.

(no real complaints, I bought mine after the specs were released)
But if Red/Sony/whoever try to pull that trick again, I think it will not sit well.
I'm not saying "pixels are all". Just that this was a confusing marketing decission that sure as xxx put a lot of potential buyers off - initially. (and angred others).

In some shooting/delivery situations, the 960x540 can be an issue.

There are some issues with DVCPRO HD. As there are with most/all compression schemes (even wavelet :) ). Avoid them and you're fine. Fight them and you're in trouble. But this is also not critisism as such. Just a fact.

There are also a couple of really limiting design choices on the HVX imo, but as far as they sell truckloads and most actually shoot DV for broadcast (according to my shop) and it is mostly used as a "PD-170 on steroids with worse low-light performance but better color" I can understand them... almost...

The component contact is totally un-understandable, though.
On 5 cams in our shop, none have a good contact.

As is the on-board LCD

It's a pitty that these two weaknesses actually relate quite closely in everyday use.

But as I point out, for the mass market for the cam (which is newsgathering in SD) these are really non-issues. So I guess that all in all these were all wise business-decissions for Panny.

And cam is cool, still. Almost 2 years on (in PAL land)

Gunleik

[David Saraceno]

There is clever marketing, hype and true capabilities.

As professionals, it's our responsibility to determine what is each

That's why we didn't buy until others had reported.

There are some shortcomings in the cam, some which you identify.

But it is by far to us the best cam in this price range.

[Barry_Green]

But if Red/Sony/whoever try to pull that trick again, I think it will not sit well.
Um, both Red and Sony have pulled "tricks" already. Red proudly claims that it's true 4k and "pixel shift not spoken here", "data to burn", etc., but it's a Beyer pattern sensor that delivers a true resolved image of about 2.8 to 3k. It's a 12mp sensor that could potentially deliver 4k in black and white, but when demosaic'd to a color image it's delivering a real-world 3K.

And Sony put out marketing on the V1 replete with "reviews" that claimed it was a true 1920x1080, even though it's not -- it's 960x1080. It uses a diagonal form of "pixel shift" to get 1920x1080. Not complaining about it, it's a valid technique, but to say it's 1920x1080 is no more valid than saying the HVX is 1920x1080. Even Panasonic doesn't claim a full 1920x1080 from the HVX, they say it's more like 1400 x 810.

Even the EX1, the marketing brochure claims that the LCD panel is 1920x480. It isn't, it's 640x480.

Then you have Canon saying that the HV20 is 1920x1080. It isn't, but at least they took a more honest approach to it -- it's a 3-megapixel sensor that uses a Beyer pattern, so the "effective" resolution is about 1920x1080. So I have no complaints with that marketing at all -- that's the right way to do it. But, even so, they print "1920x1080" all over it, even though the recorded res is 1440x1080 so ... I'm sure people will still complain.


David S. sums it up ideally. There are claims, and then there's what actually *is*. It's important to find out what the product actually does, regardless of what the marketing claims that it can do. And then you make an informed decision based on the facts and your particular usage.


The component contact is totally un-understandable, though.
On 5 cams in our shop, none have a good contact.

As is the on-board LCD
Those are both very valid criticisms and the only issues I encounter in daily use with the HVX. The LCD *must* be improved, and the component connector is not a professional solution.

[Kholi]

Those are both very valid criticisms and the only issues I encounter in daily use with the HVX. The LCD *must* be improved, and the component connector is not a professional solution.

The Component connector eats it. Although using another companies' D4 Cable drastically improved the stability of the signal, still needs to changed.

[tillhavis]

Can Panasonic change their DVCPRO HD Codec to make it 10bit 4:2:2 or higher and capable of recording to P2 or is this fixed ?

[mikkowilson]

Can Panasonic change their DVCPRO HD Codec to make it 10bit 4:2:2 or higher and capable of recording to P2 or is this fixed ?

That would pretty much be AVC-Intra 100.

- Mikko

[Barry_Green]

Yeah, the existing codec will not change, and AVC-Intra 100 is designed to do exactly what you're asking.

[FatBird19]

Yup i mean res is cool bro, but you wouldnt want a 10mg compact over a 6mg slr hehe (thats not an anology for the EX and hvx) but just a point that i think folk get way too spiced about res alone.

Anyway my friend if res is what your into then go for the EX ;) I don't think we'll be seeing any HVX with cmos in the future.

Well the camera's only 960x540. I think it's pretty safe to say that it's far behind the times now, and compared to all modern cameras it definitely shows its age.

[FatBird19]

Clever in what way?

Is there some issue you have with the video quality?

yes...

[David Saraceno]

Glad to know.

However, wouldn't it be more productive to explain what it is rather than the glib response?

[David Saraceno]

Which "all modern cameras" are you comparing it to that makes the HVX2000 "really show its age."

[Bob Gruen]

Now that the HVX-200P is established I think a more filmic version (not successor) would be a good next product. My wish list for the HVX-250F, in order:

True 1080 x 1920 with 24PN recording with overcrank and undercrank support (As in point it at a chart and the recorded image is accurate down to the pixel). My understanding is that this is not part of the DVCProHD spec, so a different codec would be required.

Faster lens, even to the point of sacrificing zoom range. It would allow the user to get closer to 'the film look' without resorting to 35mm adapters.

10 Stop latitude, less noise in darks. 2/3" imager needed for this.

Zoom function on LCD and Video Out to aid in focusing. Touch screen LCD might facilitate this.

Cable access to all four sound channels. XLR snake might be needed, but that would be fine as long as a high quality connection between the snake and camera is used.

Image flip for 35mm adapter use.

Similar cam-corder form factor, not a shoulder mount.

Around $9 grand price, putting it between the HVX and HPX.

Bob

[doondoon]

I would honestly be happy with an upgraded LCD and HD-SDI out. One of my biggest problems with the HVX 200 is getting the analog hd out to HD-SDI.

The extra cables and AJA boxes everywhere drive me f***ing insane ! not to mention the director suddenly yelling "picture's gone again"... it's embarrassing.

Also, there are some pretty cool options now for bypassing the cameras internal compression and going straight to disk via hd-sdi.

[whachusay]

I want to hear (in a loud booming voice), Panasonic say "We have come out with the HPX (or HVX) 300. It is perfect and it starts shipping tomorrow. By the way, we now have 64 GB P2 cards and they will be $64 each".


LMAO....

[reticulan5]

I,m with you guys.next model 1080pn at all speeds.Panasonic please add 80 fps.
1/3 inch C C D s let it rest in peace.
Standard def rec is a waste.Just down convert later.

[Kholi]

I would honestly be happy with an upgraded LCD and HD-SDI out. One of my biggest problems with the HVX 200 is getting the analog hd out to HD-SDI.

The extra cables and AJA boxes everywhere drive me f***ing insane ! not to mention the director suddenly yelling "picture's gone again"... it's embarrassing.

Also, there are some pretty cool options now for bypassing the cameras internal compression and going straight to disk via hd-sdi.

Get a short D4 Cable: Still happens, but you have to be pretty hard on the shorter ones to get the image to go out. I learned my less on that one as well.

AS far as SD recording being a waste: Negative. Maybe a waste for what you do, but for a lot of people SD is still THE choice. The fact that the HVX200 still has an SD tape deck makes it even more attractive as the FULL package.