Does HVX-200 have enough oomph for me?

[Paul J.]

Greetings from Finland!

I have just founded a new production company and am looking to purchase some equipment. I have been really tempted to buy a HVX-200 after compairing all reasonable priced cameras but I really want to be sure... Ofcourse posting here might not give me objective opinions but I thought I'd give it a try. Our first customer requires the video made in Full HD. The video needs to be crystal clear (well it actually is advertising full HD televisions so it better be really good). The shots will all be made outdoors and in snowy bright scenarios so lighting shouldnt be a problem. However I am no techno specialist so for example bit rates and so on do not tell me much. Then again I am not a DoP. However being main producer and founder of this company + responsible of what we give the client makes me really interested in the equipment we use. So if someone could help me out I'd be more than gratefull. If nothing else we will rent a high end camera for the gig but buying a cam for the company would be smart for not too many clients require full hd material. Well hope you can help!

- Paul J.

http://www.newdawn.fi

[PhantomVideo]

Hi There,

We have 2 HVX202's since they first became aviable and have just recently got a HPX500. I can honestly say that the HVX202 records into the most professional
format (DVCPROHD) for its price range, Sony, Canon and JVC with there HDV does not even come close. DVCPROHD is an excellant format far most robost, practical and versitial that the HDV's. The P2 workflow is unreal if you to the preproduction the meta is so invalable and you can save days of work using it. For organomics the HVX202 is far more inutive than the Sony Z1 as many important features are buired in menus. My citisum for this camera is only low light, i honeslty believe the Z1 holds up far better but the format out weights this 100 times over.

Give me DVCPROHD over HDV any day

Cheers
Ash

[Paul J.]

Ok thanks for the input. However it still is unclear to me for instance if you put raw material of a hvx200 or a HPX500 or even a Sony HDWF900 next to eachother what the actual difference is? I realize these cameras "play in different leagues" but would really know how the actual material shows it. As the ammount of pixels should be the same? I know optics play somewhat a role in this but what if you use professional lenses with a 35mm adapter for instance?

- Paul J.

[Paul J.]

Oh yeah... and is it true that the european version of hvx200 and hpx500 do not support 1080/24p? The client whats 24frames a sec and Im reading that the european just shoots 25...

[lawriejaffa]

Your sounding a bit rusty there Paul hehe, you should probably consult with your D.O.P or main camera op (unless you are here) for advice, specifically meeting the need of your client.

The resolutions are the same, the pixels are anyway, what is oft compared is the quality of these images, with the sony ex capturing in finer 'resolution' detail the image that ends up - the same number of pixils as the hvx. While the hvx has a better workflow imo but has also imo a better colour/less compressed, image.

Good luck

[Paul J.]

I would say rusty is even an understatement here :) A D.O.P hasnt been assigned for this project yet and I am merely trying to figure out my options. I only act as a producer/director and my technical knowledge is limited I admit. But this is why I seek help among bright minds of this forum :)

-Paul J.

[Noel Evans]

Hi There,

We have 2 HVX202's since they first became aviable and have just recently got a HPX500. I can honestly say that the HVX202 records into the most professional
format (DVCPROHD) for its price range, Sony, Canon and JVC with there HDV does not even come close. DVCPROHD is an excellant format far most robost, practical and versitial that the HDV's. The P2 workflow is unreal if you to the preproduction the meta is so invalable and you can save days of work using it. For organomics the HVX202 is far more inutive than the Sony Z1 as many important features are buired in menus. My citisum for this camera is only low light, i honeslty believe the Z1 holds up far better but the format out weights this 100 times over.

Give me DVCPROHD over HDV any day

Cheers
Ash

Your talking about codecs not results.

Hi Paul the problem is your asking what camera for a particular scenario, then its going to be what has to cover you for everything. Quite frankly if what you are after is clean, high resolution image then Id recommend a Sony EX1 for that job (assuming an under 10k purchase budget. But your purchase will need to cover many scenarios. What are they?

[Tom Plapper]

I'd get a HPX 500. There's a zillion HVX's out there.

[Eric Papa]

I'd second the HPX500!

The workflow is bad for the Sony EX1 !!

[Paul J.]

Is the DOF better in HPX500 due to its bigger CCD's? or would one need a micro 35mm on that one aswell?

[mikkowilson]

The HPX500 will have a D.O.F similar to 16mm film. Not quite 35mm, but much shallower than a 1/3" cam like the HVX200


The HPX500 has higher resolution sensors than the HVX200. Both record to the same codec of course.


The PAL/50Hz HVX200 won't shoot 24p, it'll do 25p instead, which looks identical (it's practically impossible to tell them apart - even Barry Green probably couldn't tell you which a clip was if you showed it to him) If you client tells you they want 24p, then you might want to educate them that 25p is identical - of course if they have a specific technical need for 24p, then it's a different issue.


The HPX500 is NTSC/PAL switchable .. so it'll go both 50Hz and 60Hz frame-rates .. so you can get 24p (and 25p) in the HPX500.


Both cameras are very capable though. YLE uses both 500's and 200's as their primary cameras for their News/Daily-production now, they switched to entirely P2 in November.



One option is to rent the camera for the shoot. Or at least rent and test before buying.


- Mikko

[PhantomVideo]

Your talking about codecs not results.

Hi Paul the problem is your asking what camera for a particular scenario, then its going to be what has to cover you for everything. Quite frankly if what you are after is clean, high resolution image then Id recommend a Sony EX1 for that job (assuming an under 10k purchase budget. But your purchase will need to cover many scenarios. What are they?

Yup I'm talking codecs when someone runs arross my frame and the picture falls apart (microblocks and discolours) for 3 frames but i guess thats a Result right ? Just remeber a Codec helps produce the result and I'm not talking from and egnorant techincal persective I'm talking real world results.

[Paul J.]

The HPX500 will have a D.O.F similar to 16mm film. Not quite 35mm, but much shallower than a 1/3" cam like the HVX200


The PAL/50Hz HVX200 won't shoot 24p, it'll do 25p instead, which looks identical (it's practically impossible to tell them apart - even Barry Green probably couldn't tell you which a clip was if you showed it to him) If you client tells you they want 24p, then you might want to educate them that 25p is identical - of course if they have a specific technical need for 24p, then it's a different issue.


The HPX500 is NTSC/PAL switchable .. so it'll go both 50Hz and 60Hz frame-rates .. so you can get 24p (and 25p) in the HPX500.




Well the spesific request was to get 1080/24p. They will be shown on full HD televisions and should look as good and sharp as possible.

Testing the actual cameras forehand would be the smartest option however with the prices of Mutanen for instance I'm not sure how realistic of a option it is :)

This particular client is demanding and the sharp superprofessional look is required. Im just trying to figure out is it smart to rent a high end camera for a week for 5k or just buy a "good enough" cam. In the endgame with it would be smart to have own equipment but I just dont know is the HVX or even HPX up to the clients standards.

[mikkowilson]

Try Suomilammi, I always find them very accommodating.

For a big purchase/rental like this, you might need to head into Helsinki and test hands on though.


- Mikko

[lawriejaffa]

Paul I think you need to check what your client is exactly after, (in style) rather than the titbits of technical info. If your client has not specificied technically what you are to use, from codec to type of camera then im wondering if perhaps he's not just genericaly saying - pick something that looks great.

Now HVX, EX and others are all 1080p cams, they all have different ways of achieving the image with different pluses and penalties with each. Theres no straight forward choice, we would have all bought it if there was.

If i was shooting a glossy style advert, filmic, where colour and grading (on a budget) was important then id pick the HVX everytime. A lot of folk do cos they want to make movies with it and do corporate on the side.

However from your brief it sounds like, your supposed to be delivering some kind looK akin to the BBC's 'Planet Earth' documentary series, the 'through the window' HD that looks real and not filmic, (but still beautiful etc. The EX might be perfect for that, but if theres lots of movement well, you will see that of the material out there, when the cams running around its not so pretty imo. So you have to weigh that up (incidentally planet earth was shot with big end pannies)

I would probably think the EX (if your not concerned by its drawbacks) might be better, but if your going crazy and running with this cam, i think the hvx is safer - and its image while not as sharp, is obviously a great 1080p image too.

Good luck!

[Paul J.]

Try Suomilammi, I always find them very accommodating.

For a big purchase/rental like this, you might need to head into Helsinki and test hands on though.


- Mikko

Do Suomilammi for instance have these cameras in stock and there to test? Never been there. Only at their website. I tried PRO Rajala here in Turku but... well no camera was hooked up to anything. Just out on display. most behind glass. And HVX is a order only product there for some reason. HPX and cameras in such price are probably impossible to get through there.

[Paul J.]

Thanks for your input lawriejaffa,

Well let's picture Samsung or Sony LCD televisions. The purpose for this project is to make material that makes a paticular monitor look "out of this world" and super sharp.

[mikkowilson]

Do Suomilammi for instance have these cameras in stock and there to test? Never been there.

Yeah, give Risto a call and he'll set you up for a demo.

They just had a big Panasonic "demo day" last Monday with the whole range out for hands on testing.

- Mikko

[Paul J.]

Typical... just a few days too late... Ah well if it is possible to get some professional advise and to see the cameras in action. Well that would ease up decisions alot. :)

[mikkowilson]

They have both a 500 and a 200 in their standard rental/demo fleet. Call them anyway.

- Mikko

[Paul J.]

Thanks for the hot tip Mikko! Will definetly have to give them a call and arrange time to go check out the cameras in person. Im guessing it's worth the trip to Helsinki :)

On another matter, any idea of where to purchase a 35mm adapter for either a 1/3 or a 2/3 camera. (depending on what we end up with) A reliable and easy as possible way to get one in my hands? Do they differ in any ways? I mean do they deliver different kind of picture or is is just the objectives to determ?

[mikkowilson]

35mm adapters are an entirly different mess of their own .. check out the 35mm adapters (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=113) area of DVXuser for more info on them.


- Mikko

[alpi69]

Rent a HDCam camera with a P+S 35mm adapter with PL lenses. That will definitely be "FullHD" as your client wants. But then you need a DoP and operator who can handle these tools.
We just use this combo and the images kicked a**.