4-Camera HVX shoot - Video Switcher or just slate it??

[ozzymandius]

I am putting together a talk show that will be shot on HD using four HVXs. I did some research on threads and have seen people using the Newtek Tricaster and other switcher bundles for this sort of thing, but that seems to be mostly for SD multi-cam shoots. For HD multi-cam shoots, the cost of the switchers and other hardware seems to go into the tens of thousands of dollars, if I understand correctly.

What about just synching up timecode between the four HVXs and slating each take (to counteract in post for any timecode drift between cameras). Each camera would record to its own laptop via Adobe OnLocation. Would that be a more cost effective way of doing this? Or am I better off investing in some kind of HD video switcher set-up, and buy HD monitors, capture cards, etc.

Can anyone with experience with the above please make some equipment suggestions? I am looking for a cost-effective and reasonably efficient way of doing this.

Thanks!

[mikkowilson]

For HD multi-cam shoots, the cost of the switchers and other hardware seems to go into the tens of thousands of dollars, if I understand correctly.

Yes, this is true.



Working with HVX's, I'd ISO-record it and cut together in post. Unless you are in a hurry to publish, in which case, the investment for HD switching & recording may be your only option.

- Mikko

[ozzymandius]

By "ISO record" do you mean what I outline - recording to a laptop via OnLocation or similar program, for each HVX?

And I should mention that my budget is in the neighborhood of $10-15k to either buy:

(a) 4 laptops with OnLocation and firewire drives or

(b) video switching equipment and monitors

I already have the four HVXs

[mikkowilson]

If you've got live switching, don't forget that you will still need a way to record the output, and you've gota do audio too.

And dont' forget Com, and tally too.


You'll be pusshed pretty hard to do all that for $15k


- Mikko

[Derrick_SA]

check out this software Cockpit Cube, I quote "Record up to 4 cameras in synch ..."

http://www.cockpitcube.com/

Now the website says the 4 camera module is coming soon, but they are advertising the functionality in the magazines, so maybe pop them an email.

- Derrick

[ozzymandius]

If you've got live switching, don't forget that you will still need a way to record the output, and you've gota do audio too.

- Mikko

We don't necessarily have to switch live (though that would be nice). We could simply synch up the HVX timecodes as best we could, then edit all the angles and wipes in Final Cut, after the shoot. I imagine that could be done for well under $15k?

If we were to switch live and essentially edit on the fly, I imagine that is where the big bux start to come in. That HD switching equipment and workflow does not seem to be cheap.

[mikkowilson]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

You are correct that ISO means "Isolated recording" - so seperatly for each camera. And dooing that is MUCH cheaprer than switching on the fly.


- Mikko

[TedRR]

Too funny.
I just got NewTek's Tricaster yesterday for 2 one hour productions next week. We can live switch the production far cheaper then posting a 4 camera production. The client saves a few bucks and we make a few more in less time.
The single box can switch, Play clips, do GFX, Edit, stream, and record over 4 hours of the switched program. You don't even need a VTR. Plug in a keyboard and mouse and that's it. I'm so impressed I brought it home to play with this weekend.

No, TriCaster isn't HD yet though. I assume you gotta deliver HD?
That's an expensive proposition still.
I wish you luck.

[mikkowilson]

Yeah, SD live switching is cheap and easy these days, with a myriad of options on how to do it. Then again, that technology has been around for decades, developing and getting cheaper.
Tri-caster is a good example of this.

HD of course is a much younger set of formats, so it hasn't had time to mature and thus become cheap yet. (Though the costs of HD are dropping MUCH faster than SD ever did, as the experience of SD makes HD development easier.)

- Mikko

[dpavid]

i record 3 tv shows each with 4 hvx's. A cooking show, talk show, and art show. We sync timecode with hvx's with firewire and post in FCP.

The only disadvantage is you won'y be able to monitor all the cameras simultaneously so make sure that your cameramen are all on the same page. We had that issue with one cameraman whose footage are totally useless for poor framing and focus. If i had it monitored, i would have caught it.

My crew is awesome now and we all know what to shoot and whose getting what. We use hand signals to each other to let us know what were have framed on our cameras without us even seeing each others screen. Makes our show look like we switched it with a director and TD.

hope that helps.

[TedRR]

The only disadvantage is you won'y be able to monitor all the cameras simultaneously so make sure that your cameramen are all on the same page. We had that issue with one cameraman whose footage are totally useless for poor framing and focus. If i had it monitored, i would have caught it.

Good points. On that note, Yeh, each camera op needs to understand their specific roll. Each being the hero cam will kill ya!

If you are going for posting later, it would still be a good idea to have a feed from each to a monitor station so you can direct them. We are renting a wireless intercom so I can communicate with the cam ops.

How are you going to deal with sound? If not feeding all the cams a feed from a mixer, I'd suggest running the main sound to the camera you plan on being on the most for the production.

Don't forget, you can create a scene file on one HVX and copy that to the other cards for matching them.

[take2visualmedia]

If this is an option...save your money on the switcher and slate it. I've done many multi-cams this way and with FCP's multi-cam feature it's almost too easy. It's a no-brainer if post is an option.



We don't necessarily have to switch live (though that would be nice). We could simply synch up the HVX timecodes as best we could, then edit all the angles and wipes in Final Cut, after the shoot. I imagine that could be done for well under $15k?

If we were to switch live and essentially edit on the fly, I imagine that is where the big bux start to come in. That HD switching equipment and workflow does not seem to be cheap.

[Kit Hannah]

I would say that switching the cameras live would be great if the HVX200 had a HD-SDI out. Panisonic has a nice little switcher that will route that for you for around $6k - $8k. This is what we plan to do with our HPX500's. HD monitoring is great, but really if you're just trying to get framing and composition, SD monitors will be fine unless it's very critcal work. Make sure you get one for each of your cameras, 1 for the preview, and one for whats live. Like someone else said, communication is very important, tally can be depending on what you're doing. I do a lot of college football out of video trucks, and most of them these days are still SD. ESPN likes to take the market on HD.

Anyways, you CAN build a system with your $15k budget, but you'll be with some not so great stuff. The panasonic switcher is fine, and you can get some SD monitors cheap enough. Build a nice computer with a DeckLink card in there for your video capture. Eartec headsets are fairly cheap, but they're not full duplex. And you would need either some really long component cables or some conversion boxes to go HD-SDI. Most component switchers out there are only SD.

Theres also a couple of HD-SDI switchers from Burst electronics that are much cheaper, but apparently work pretty good. They're just going to give you hard cuts, any fades you would have to do in post. Like 4 in 1 out or 8 in 1 out. About as basic as it gets, but as long as you're just switching the same cameras, the signal should not need syncing.

So, just babbling and letting you know that there ARE options, it's just how low budget you want to go. You could always buy some stuff and rent some until you can afford to step it up. And definitely don't short change your audio. At least get a little mixer and use that to go into your Decklink card, run your mics through it so you have some control over it. Nothing worse than to do a whole video and your audi is screwed up.

Also if possible, as a backup, record to at least one of the cameras too. Just in case something gets screwed up, you can always cut to your wide shot in post.

If you're delivering SD, shoot it in SD and save yourself a bunch of money. You can get SD switchers for pennies on the dollar of what they originally cost. A nice little Sony, Grass Valley or Echolab switcher would do pretty nicely. You could get a whole nice little SD system for a few grand now (minus cameras of course). Although, you can get some ultra cheap cams these days, especially if you're only using them for live stuff.

babbling again, time to stop.

Oh yeah, I have been checking into the multicam stuff on some of the NLE's too like someone mentioned above. Vegas 8 has it, Edius, and FCP just to name a few. ALthough, it will take you twice as long as switching it live, cause you pretty much have to watch the entire show over again, but in post, you have much more control.

ok, good night

[mikkowilson]

Nice post Kit, thoguh one minor innacuracy:


[...]as long as you're just switching the same cameras, the signal should not need syncing.

The video signals from the cameras will *have* to be syncronized with they hit any switcher. Even if they are the same camera. (Unless of course the cameras themselves can be syncronized by way of a Genlock input)

So for the HVX200's you will need a switcher with built in framesyncs .. or external framesyncs between the cameras and the swticher.

The Panasonic switchers (which are awsome BTW) have built in frame syncs, so you'd be set with them.
There are Component input boards available for both the HD switchers [HS300 & HS400], they are designed to work seamlessly with the HVX200 (and other cameras too of course).
The HS400 is sweet in the fact that it has a built in monitoring "multiviewer" processor - all you need is one HD monitor to monitor 8 inputs and PVW & PGM all on one monitor. Handy.

There are other brand swtichers with built in Framesyncs too, but not all have them, so worth checking to be sure.

- Mikko

[Kit Hannah]

Nice post Kit, thoguh one minor innacuracy:



The video signals from the cameras will *have* to be syncronized with they hit any switcher. Even if they are the same camera.

So for the HVX200's you will need a switcher with built in framesyncs .. or external framesyncs between the cameras and the swticher.

The Panasonic switchers (which are awsome BTW) have built in frame syncs, so you'd be set with them.
There are Component input boards available for both the HD switchers [HS300 & HS400], they are designed to work seamlessly with the HVX200 (and other cameras too of course).
The HS400 is sweet in the fact that it has a built in monitoring "multiviewer" processor - all you need is one HD monitor to monitor 8 inputs and PVW & PGM all on one monitor. Handy.


- Mikko

Thanks Mikko. That's actually what I meant to say. I guess I didn't make it clear when referencing the Panasonic switchers. It's built in. It was late. IMy brain was all over the place. Thanks for the clarification though.

[davdonn]

i record 3 tv shows each with 4 hvx's. A cooking show, talk show, and art show. We sync timecode with hvx's with firewire and post in FCP.

The only disadvantage is you won'y be able to monitor all the cameras simultaneously so make sure that your cameramen are all on the same page. We had that issue with one cameraman whose footage are totally useless for poor framing and focus. If i had it monitored, i would have caught it.

My crew is awesome now and we all know what to shoot and whose getting what. We use hand signals to each other to let us know what were have framed on our cameras without us even seeing each others screen. Makes our show look like we switched it with a director and TD.

hope that helps.
I am doing a 3-camera shoot that I'll post in FCP, and I need to synch the timecode among the HVX's. Can you provide a little more detail as to how you're doing it? The manual doesn't seem to cover this.
Thanks for any tips.

[PVSNC]

Why can you not view each of the cameras on individual monitors? Even if you are not actually switching live, you could still be on comm's with the camera ops and not be at risk of all 4 cameras moving for a shot at the same time because you would be controlling them just as if you were actually switching live. You can also make an audio recording of your camera directing calls and use it as references in post. Just thought I'd ask in case I missed something.