Findings about the EX

[The Sarlacc]

I had been on a huge HD comparo along with the new Vision 3 film stock until falling ill today. One of the cameras in the test is the new xdcam ex. We had Patel from Sony on set with us the other day and I was asking a ton of questions with regards to this camera.

Here are my basic findings/understandings with regards to this camera.

I am late to the forum game as I don't spend much time here anymore. So, maybe a lot of this is already known information I don't know.

Either way I am just posting, no bias, no opinion. I have still don't know how I feel about the camera because I have not really used it. It excites me, it frustrates me, etc. But I still have no real judgement.

Here goes:

Capturing to card

Video is captured at 1440x1080

1080/24p is able

Video is HDV MPEG2 compression wrapped in a MPEG4

Color Space is 4.2.0

capturing via HD-SDI

Video is 1920x1080

1080/24p is NOT able.

Color Space is 4.2.2


I'm interested in knowing more about this camera. I've heard footage is supposed to cut directly into F23 footage flawlessly (and the F23 is a phenomenal camera.)

What have some of you found? How many of you are also or were HVX owners?

Enjoy.

[Huy Vu]

Video to card is actually 1920 x 1080 at 35mbps

[The Sarlacc]

Video to card is actually 1920 x 1080 at 35mbps

My understanding it is recorded at 1440x1080 and then uprezzed to 1920 when importing. I'm just passing on info I received from someone at Sony, not saying he is 100% correct because he is new to the system as well.

Its one reason I am posting. To gain any other insight. But with any other insight gained it would be fantastic to have to some kind of listed source if possible.

[newadam]

Well, you are partly right. It does shoot to card at the stated format in HDV (25) mode. But when in HQ mode (35) it is recording in full 1920x1080 to XDCAM file (Mpeg4)

When recording via HD-SDI it is full 1920x1080 60i, but from what I understand you can do pulldown to get true 24p if the camera is recording in 24p mode. Some capture boards will do this live.

I have one I have been testing for a week. I have had three HVX's over the last 1.5 years. I have sold 2 HVX and am selling another in the Marketplace now. I will buy a second EX1 as soon as they come in.

My comments are:

Obviously I like it or I would not sell three HVX's to get 2 EX1's. But it is mainly because I needed to shoot mostly PAL over the next year so the multisystem allows that. If it were not for that (PAL/NTSC/24p) I probably would have stuck with the HVX's. Each has some very nice features.

Image Quality: The EX1 are definitely higher res, better in low light, and has a nicer over all lens, and a way better LCD. Out of the box the EX1 looks cold and very Sony. But it is very tweakable. It would have been nice to have had some sample presets built-in. But maybe that will make me spend more time learning the settings more quickly.

The HVX still have that amazing Film look right out of the box. And the 4:2:2 DVCPRO HD is so much easier to work with. I think it is a better format. Although the HVX is softer, it is not so major so as to say wow. I have been very pleased with the quality of the HVX when working with well lit scenes. It seems to handle contrast better, but maybe once I dial in the EX1 it will be similar.

Build Quality:

The HVX seems to be so much better built than the EX1. Outside of the lens controls, the HVX is hands and feet above the EX1. The buttons work, they are in the right place and I never accidentally hit one I did not mean to on the HVX. The EX1 has little buttons everywhere. I have numerous times hit the wrong button or switch accidentally. I am sure I will get used to it. Also Sony has apparently had some quality control issues. I think mine even has a little back focus issue. Apparently Panasonic just nailed QC from the beginning. I think Sony had to rush these out to rescue there sales from the HVX. But the Lens is awesome (of course it is FUJINON)

Workflow:

Very similar. Having been doing the P2 thing for the last 1.5 years, it was an easy switch. I love that the expresscard SxS fits in my Macbook, keeping me from using my camera to transfer footage. I have had no problems with the interframe editing yet, but I have not edited much. This will take some time.

Otherwise, I will miss my HVX's, but I think these EX1's will grow on me and will probably be more flexible in the long run.

Adam

[The Sarlacc]

Thanks for the info Adam. Good stuff to know.

[Stevet]

Newadam is correct on ALL accounts!

[matthew77]

I agree on most counts, but I wouldn't be so generous with the HVX in comparison.

My HVX was on eBay the first day I received my EX1.

[lawriejaffa]

A very fair assessment NewAdam, and interesting details Sarlac, i think these build issues seem to have affected quite a few folk, and personally it would drive me nuts. For those who are somewhat brave amatuers, I wonder how many may work with their cams without ever fixing or realising the vignetting or back focus issues some have?

It is a nice feature to have a PAL/NTSC on a cam of this budget though! Mostl handy indeed good luck newadam on that production (as a man from PAL land!)

Mathew77 In the midst of fanboyism theres a few who - excited by their new purchases feel the egotistical need to hit back on what they once owned, with oft simplistic remarks like yours. Personally I can't understand yet why a budget filmmaker would want the compromises brought by the EX, to workflow and shoot, so you know what i'd have up on ebay ;)

So its all relative and such remarks really aren't that helpful are they?

[matthew77]

(Actually I had been wanting to hit back at the HVX long before the EX1 was announced - because it never lived up to its NAB promises in my estimation. The EX1 has done a better job of putting true HD in that sized package.)

In keeping with the topic of this thread, what I meant to say in my post was that, details aside, the EX1 is a formidable camera and a huge evolutionary step from the venerable, but tired, favorite of this forum.

From someone who has owned and used both.

Sorry if i fanned any fanboy flames.

[lawriejaffa]

lol no not really, my point is your fanning your own fan flames! For eg. my companies preferance is to invest in a 2nd hvx and maybe an HPX500, so I could get an EX even 3, but nope, I ain't sold on it, its too compromised, its certainly an evolution in part, and a reversal! Yes a reversal in others.

So 'venerable' and 'tired' what tosh! It's like back in the day when one nerd said to another the same about the SNES and the megadrive lol... I mean i think we can be a bit more mature than that...

Barry Green's comparison, and the somewhat lacklustre reaction of most folk on these forums to the supposed 'next' step, is testimony to the fact that most don't share your somewhat egotistical outlook...

It's fine to express an opinion, but these self serving remarks (like you here) are simply done to reassure oneself over their purchase. At present your emotionally investing 'yourself' into the product which means you've got to say silly and provocative things to reassure your ego. Great.

Just remember to professionals there just different tools...

[sodotoguwangus]

Matthew don't worry about the fanboys. They must adapt and overcome or else their genes (and cameras) will be weeded out of existence. I have personally touched and licked both cameras and can say that overall the EX1 is superior. Not in every regard, of course, but overall.

[Jason Ramsey]

let's take this thread away from the personal please, and back to more realistic meaningful discussion before it gets too far off course...

Opinion is opinion. Please express it in a thoughtful and hopefully helpful way...

Later,
Jason

[lawriejaffa]

Um were you intending to be ironic Sodo? This generic 'better', regardless of specifity, filled with self assuring ego is just as I say, silly ;)

Mathew doesn't need to worry, he's already fanboying away in this thread Sodo, so im sure he'll live hehe.

The 'oh its um better' and unsubstantiated remarks are just sooo tiresome! Beacause not only is it OBVIOUSLY subjective, totally and obviously subjective, it will just keep happening forever, whenever a new model is released. So why bother? Why can't debates be on the specifics without the need to 'self-sell' that we're seeing so prevelant here.

[Jason Ramsey]

last warning.

Thanks. :beer:

Later,
Jason

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Is the EX1 loosing resolution and focus as you pan?

I don't mean Indy 500 whipping pans... but just regular old pans?!?!?!?

What about tilts?

[matthew77]

And why shouldn't it be better? It's a brand new camera made by a company with arguably the deepest technical resources in the world, in direct competitive response to the HVX.

I agree that to a professional they are just different tools. One is older and understood, and one newer, superior by its very design and intent and as yet unlearned.




I just don't understand this ego argument as it applies to those of us who embrace change - I could easily buy another HVX (hell, I could even buy three!) if I felt that I made the wrong decision in selling mine.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Just in case this was missed: :D

Is the EX1 loosing resolution and focus as you pan?

I don't mean Indy 500 whipping pans... but just regular old pans?!?!?!?

What about tilts?


I love many of the images I've seen with this camera and am just trying to see where it's limitations lay.

[matthew77]

Yes, it bumps down to 960x540. :violent5:

Kidding aside, I have not witnessed this phenomenon, and if it is happening it is certainly not visible in general photography.

How would you propose to measure it? I would be happy to run a test, but think any such resolution loss would be masked by motion blur.

Maybe a fast shutter pan across a resolution chart? Charts are not a codec challenger, and I think if this were happening at all it would be codec related.

The XDCAM codec is really robust in my tests.

[The Sarlacc]

matthew and lawrie keep the bullshit out of my thread, take your squabbles to PM.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yes, it bumps down to 960x540. :violent5:

Kidding aside, I have not witnessed this phenomenon, and if it is happening it is certainly not visible in general photography.

How would you propose to measure it? I would be happy to run a test, but think any such resolution loss would be masked by motion blur.

Maybe a fast shutter pan across a resolution chart? Charts are not a codec challenger, and I think if this were happening at all it would be codec related.

The XDCAM codec is really robust in my tests.


Thanks Mathew.

I don't know of any other way to test it other than to just shoot some pans.

[lawriejaffa]

INT. Back of family car
What? but moooom he started it!

lol seriously though Sarlacc, joking aside sorry we went off tangent on your thread! :)

[The Sarlacc]

Thanks Mathew.

I don't know of any other way to test it other than to just shoot some pans.


I JUST found and read Barry's review of this camera and makes mention of a definite loss of resolution in pans.

What REALLY disappointed me was his review of Sony's implementation of Solid State and how long it takes for the camera to switch over in modes. I never played with that, but if its true, wow, unacceptable.

[matthew77]

Can you post a link to that review?

[The Sarlacc]

Go over to the main HVX forum its on the first page.

[Jason Ramsey]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=120699

[matthew77]

ESTEBEVERDE and Sarlacc,

Very interesting thread (Barry's). Some of his followups go into greater detail than his initial paragraphs and I thought this might answer the question a bit better:

"720p seems like simple pixel binning to me, probably binning on the vertical. Didn't seem to be too much compelling reason to use that format so I didn't spend a lot of time on it, I figure that most EX1 users are going to go for 1080 mode (especially since they take up the same amount of bandwidth) so I only briefly forayed into 720. I did play with faster shutter speeds, and at 1/2000th I got stable detail rendering, which would seem to mean that the detail loss is simple motion blur, but -- it just doesn't feel like it adds up to just motion blur. It seems like there's something else at work that I can't quite identify. I mean, other cameras don't lose as much detail at the same shutter speeds, so I still think it's due to some aggressive detail coring and noise reduction, and with the super-short shutter speeds it probably has enough interframe intelligence to know to not attempt blending frames on such disparate images, maybe? I dunno. Like I said, I guess it's possible that it's just motion blur but everyone who watched the waveform monitor was like "whoa, what's happening here?" I'm not escalating this to the point of "ooh, this is a problem, don't buy it", but I am saying that it's curious and it seemed a lot more pronounced on the EX1 than on any other camera I've used or tested. "

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Definitely.

I read Barry's thread very shortly after he posted it.

And, I absolutely respect Barry's opinion.

I think he is always honest and forthcoming and doesn't pull punches.

With that said, I do value others opinions and assessment s as well.

I think it's a great time for us all as technology is growing by leaps and bounds.

As long as we don't get to caught up in it but instead use it to free ourselves from restraints we can tell our stories like in no other time before.

[lawriejaffa]

Yah true enough, folk get precious about the toys they invest in but its easy to lose sight of the fact that it is the storytelling that counts and the pleasure of the creative process and actually making films.

Me and Mathew may disagree, but something everyone agrees on is that all these cams and a whole range of others give us the opportunity (though sadly not the guarantee) to produce films with an unimaginable array of options that not that long ago would have been impossible.

lol after the bickering of camera models, and juvenile provocations etc we all eventually reach this higher plateau of mental consciousness hehe

[ESTEBEVERDE]

True! True! True! :beer:

[Stevet]

Motion blur. Grab any camera, especially set to 24p 1/48 shutter and pan it. What do you see: Motion blur. I'm sure everyone knows this.
For it to have more smear, or blur than normal, that would imply something in the signal processing is not fast enough to react to change.

Well, this would make sense, BUT since cranking the shutter speed and frame rate on the EX1 yeilds sharp images during movement, that sure is a telling sign that there in not an issue. What you're seeing is a camera that has real high detail; therefore, moving motion blur is more noticeable on these cameras.
Even using decent high rez Digial SLR cameras, we all know how blurry images can get just holding the camera with 1/125 or less shutter speeds. I usually want atleast 1/250 when hand held.

I noticed this several years ago when switching to HD from SD. When Barry mentioned the soft pan, he even questioned why. That night I fired up the camera under the studio lights and played with high shutter speeds and frame rate. It looked sharp during movement at these higher rates, as expected.

Also, reviewing the comparison motion blur from the HVX vs EX1 1080P file of the skateboarder panned in front of a car. Both cameras appeared to have the same motion blur.

This kind of "subjective" criticism only starts rumors.. Find a way of actually measuring a comparison. But, based on what I just mentioned, higher frame rates and shutter speeds yeilds sharp moving images pretty much throws the slow response out the window.

The EX1 is FAR from perfect. The vignetting issue is a definate problem, but Sony has fixed it on current batches. The rolling shutter artifacts are there. You have to take this in consideration when using the camera.