Got a chance to put EX1 up against HVX

[Barry_Green]

I talked someone into letting me come over and work with their EX1 for a day and a half. Brought some charts, some lights, etc. My main goal was *not* to do some exhaustive camera comparison shootout. My main goal was to find out what new things the EX1 brings to the table, and find out what it's like to work with. I've had a tapeless HD camcorder for two years now -- how does the EX1 compare? I also had an HVX so I had 'em side by side.

I'm not going to post a bunch of stills because every time I do that, people just look at the pictures, and then they start calling me names and flamefests and stupidity ensue. So forget that. Plus, still frames will only show you still frames, and the EX1 *excels* at still frames, so what would be the point in showing us what we already know? We already know the EX1 is noticeably sharper than the HVX. What I wanted to know is: what does it DO? How does it do it? And what differences will it make to an actual shooter? And is it time to trade in the HVX?

So the first thing I looked at was sharpness. And oh yeah, the EX1 delivers on that. 800 observable lines of horizontal res on a Chroma Du Monde. Fantastic. Er, just don't move the camera. Move it, and you get a noticeable resolution drop, more than can be accounted for through simple motion blur. And it's not due to the codec either, you can see the effect on the live output and you can see it on a scope. Heck, you don't even need that -- you can see it right on the (as already acknowledged, excellent) LCD! Just turn on peaking (especially in yellow -- excellent feature, that peaking-in-yellow!) and point at a high-detail scene; take it outside, put it on wide-angle and point at some trees. You should see a whole lotta yellow, because the peaking is showing all the sharp high-frequency detail, right? Now pan, and -- whoops? Where'd all the yellow go? You'll notice the peaking disappears whenever you move, and comes back when you stop. Well, so does your hyper-sharp resolution -- it all disappears whenever you move. The faster you move, the more it drops, and that may be attributable to motion blur, but even very minor moves cost you a couple hundred lines of res. So in motion, the sharpness advantage over an HVX is very little. I have theories as to why (I think it's doing some manner of aggressive noise reduction, perhaps through frame accumulation) but I don't know for sure and I couldn't find any other way to verify my suspicion.

Sensitivity -- yep, the EX1 is more sensitive. How much? Depends on your tolerance for gain on the Sony, but overall, not a tremendous amount. It's about 1/2 stop more sensitive. I think I know why Adam Wilt said the camera is 320 ASA -- because it pretty much is. I didn't have my light meter with me, but based on what I know about the HVX I'd rate the EX1 more around 500, which is within about 1/2 stop of 320. Adam rated 320 off a pre-production model, so maybe the final model is 500? Anyway, what I tested is about 1/2 stop more sensitive than the HVX. Here's how you know -- set up a chart and set both cameras to render the image very comparably -- same gamma (HD NORM on HVX, I think I used Standard 3 on the EX1), same color matrix (normal on EX1, NORM on HVX), same recording format (1080/24p on both) and same shutter speed (180 degrees, or 1/48). Now set the iris so that you're getting exactly 50 IRE on both cameras, and then look at your f-stop. The HVX was at precisely f/2.8, the EX1 was at precisely f/3.4 That's 1/2 stop, folks. Not the outrageous claims I've heard elsewhere of "three stops faster" and such! (and to anybody who wants to dispute this, just test it! I've told you the exact procedure. Set 'em so they render the image comparably, set the gamma similarly, and adjust the iris to get equal brightness. It's a half stop different.)

Now, the thing is, the Sony is quite a bit cleaner in noise, at least at low gain levels. You could go to 6dB of gain and the noise is about the same as the HVX, maybe a tad cleaner. Maybe you could go to 9dB of gain, although that might be pushing it. At 6dB of gain, the "effective" sensitivity improvement over the HVX is 1.5 stops. That's getting somewhere, that's noticeable. But you need to use gain to do it, so -- decide for yourself.

Okay, noise -- at 0dB, no doubt the EX1 is cleaner. Combined with the sharpness, the clean image really gives you that "looking through a window" feeling. That's very cool, and may be exactly what some people are looking for -- if that's what you want, the EX1 delivers. Doesn't look anything like the film look, of course, but it does look like that super-sharp looking-through-a-window HD look that you see on DiscoveryHD, etc, and that's a very valid look. If you add gain it gets noisy, so don't do that... I mean, if you were not in your right mind and decided to go to 18dB of gain, it's incredibly noisy (looks about the same as an HVX at 18dB) but it also robs the image of a lot of detail. Resolution goes out the window as the noise comes in, sort of like the "oil paint" effect. So don't use a lot of gain. Didn't see any bad effects at 6dB, so I think that's probably just fine to use, but stay away from much higher.

There were many things about the EX1 that were positives. The LCD is very sharp and the colored peaking is wonderful. The sharpness is great. The small size is nice. The delete-last-clip function is nice (although it's also MANDATORY on this SxS system, more on that later.)

But there were lots of things that just flat-out suck too. How the **** are you supposed to mount a mattebox to this thing? Look at the onboard mic, it sticks out past the front of the lens by about two inches! I tried to put my Vocas on it, I couldn't even get it near the lens, and forget about trying to use 4x4 filters. The only way you could do it is to load from the side maybe? If anyone can use a conventional top-loading mattebox I'd like to know which brand. I've had Chrosziel, CAVision, and now Vocas, and I don't see how any of 'em could work with this EX1.

Secondly, it's impossible to hand-hold one-handed. You just can't do it. The fatboy HVX feels as light as an HV20, compared to the EX1. The ergonomics are astoundingly bad for handheld. I can't describe it to do it justice, you just have to experience it for yourself. You can manage okay with two hands (and I use the HVX with two hands), but just get used to the idea that you'll have to use two hands with the EX1.

Okay, now onto my main gripe: SxS SuXS! It was infuriating to use; for anyone used to P2 I don't know how you could stand this. It's like they totally missed the point on what solid state is supposed to be. It's so slow to actually work with the system, it's like using a tape camera, only worse. Okay, look, I've gone around the globe teaching people about the HVX and P2, so I'm used to talking to a lot of shooters and showing them how to use the system. One thing I do is I show how quickly you can go check your footage -- just pop into playback mode and play your clips. Takes about a second, maybe two. On the EX1 the same process takes 14 SECONDS. Count that out, folks. Think about it. "Let's play back that clip", the director says. Okay, count it out: one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand... all the way to 14 one thousand. Now, the camera's rebooted into playback mode and you can play a clip. 14 seconds? On a tape camera like the DVX I could toggle over, REWIND THE TAPE, and be viewing footage in less than 14 seconds!

Okay, another thing I point out in training seminars is that even in the middle of playing back HVX footage, if something started happening that you need to record, you can just punch the record button and the camera will automatically jump into camera mode and start recording. Takes maybe 2 seconds. This is part of the revolution of tapeless, this is part of what makes going solid-state so darn cool, right? I mean, if you're fooling around showing off some footage outside the courtroom and suddenly the doors fly open and the defendant is marched out, you can punch "record" and by the time you point the camera at the scene, it's recording, right? On the EX1? Not possible. It takes about 12 seconds to go from playback mode back to record mode. Again, that's crazy. 12 seconds? The defendant would already be in the cop car and driven away in 12 seconds! How are people supposed to use this for ENG? You're setting yourself up to get screwed.

Okay, here's where it gets worse -- let's say that you decided to show your friend a clip so you push to "playback" mode, and three seconds later the door bursts open. The camera's barely started booting up into playback mode, so you push the switch to camera mode -- guess what? You're out of the game for a full 25 seconds. It has to *finish* booting up in playback mode before it'll even register that you swapped to camera mode! So, you've waited three seconds, now you have to wait 11 more seconds for it to finish booting up, and then you have to wait another 11 seconds for it to re-boot in camera mode. 25 seconds, round trip. Ridiculous. 25 seconds is a long, long time to not be able to shoot. Makes that 7-second tape spool-up time seem instantaneous, doesn't it?

Granted I was swapping back and forth a lot in my testing, so I experienced these delays proportionally more than an average shooter might, so it irritated me more than it may irritate you. But I wanted to drop-kick the thing after a while, and I seriously don't know how an ENG/news guy would put up with it. When you need to go, you need to GO, not sit around waiting for the camera to dawdle around for up to 25 seconds...

Okay, more on SxS: it took 4 minutes and 20 seconds to offload an 8GB card. An 8GB P2 card takes 4:25 on this same laptop (Sony laptop with both ExpressCard and PCMCIA slots). So any claims of how the ExpressCard SxS system is "so much faster" are just marketing nonsense.

Okay, what else... oh, the lens. Yes it has true manual zoom. Felt exactly like the HVX's. Yes it has manual focus. Other than hard stops it didn't do anything the HVX doesn't. Feels a little different, but gives the exact same result (but with less rotation). Iris ring was nice though, I do like that, everyone should have a proper iris ring. Saw plenty of chromatic aberrations, a tad more than the HVX (yes, more), but way less than the Canon or JVC. I'd rank C.A. performance as average. Interesting to note, practically the whole camera is lens; they have a film plane marker on it that's almost all the way back to the cooling fan slot. What looks like the camera body is actually all lens inside (or so I think). The fat butt on the end is probably where all the recording unit is, the rest (in front of that slot) seems to be basically all lens.

Rolling shutter? Oh yes. Absolutely it has rolling shutter issues. People who say it doesn't have it either a) don't know what they're talking about, or b) haven't encountered it, but it's there in full force. The EX1 has a full complement of rolling shutter issues; it does skew and it does wobble and it does partial exposure.

The menu system is an interesting mix of give 'n' take. Very extensive menus with wonderful controls, seemed about comparable to the Canon XHA1/XLH1 in that respect. But navigating the menus is annoying because the little spinny wheel sometimes goes up when you tell it to go down, and the menus don't loop through -- you can't roll off the bottom and back around to the top like you can on the HVX. DVX was that way and it was annoying; they fixed it in the HVX and I really missed it on the EX1. Level meters didn't have any witness marks at -12 and -20, that was annoying. The LCD is sharp and clear, but it also gets very cluttered with all the stuff that gets displayed; I appreciated the HVX's method of pushing that stuff outside the visible frame. Wish I could have both -- a 4:3 LCD so the "clutter" goes outside the 16:9 frame, but with the sharpness of the EX1's LCD. About that "clutter": with the EX1 they have a "direct" menu where instead of going into the menus through the "menu" button, you use a miniature joystick to navigate around the on-screen displays -- when you click 'em it becomes a menu. I thought that was kind of clever, but some functions that should be on switches, aren't (like shutter speed? Hello?) -- you have to change those things through the "direct" menu. So it's got some give and take, some things are definitely better, some things are a step backwards.

[Barry_Green]

(PART II)

As for the recording format: I didn't try to "break" the codec. It looks good on the still shots, but I was only really doing lab tests and the recorded images looked great in the lab. Someday I'll put it through some real-world shooting scenarios and see how it holds up. I suspect it won't hold up as well as XDCAM HD, because it has to handle 33% more data in the same bandwidth, but I'd like to find out for sure.

Overall: if you want that looking-through-a-window grainless HD look, the EX1 delivers that, and it does so with a 1/2 stop more sensitivity too. There's no free lunch though, and it comes with a lot of penalties -- rolling shutter bullcrap, intolerable handhold ergonomics, and the goofy SuXS workflow (man I hated that... it's like amateur hour for tapeless... there's NO METADATA! No information about the clips at all, no text memos, no serial numbers or data tracking... the entirety of the metadata is a shot marker or two! SHOT MARKERS. Hello, we had shot marks on TAPE. This is supposed to be tapeless solid state, get with the program folks!)

I can't explain why they limited their tapeless system so much. Only thing I can think of is they're trying to replicate the XDCAM disc workflow as closely as possible? If so, it's stupid -- they walked away from so much of the potential of what solid state recording can do. Is SxS better than tape? Yes. Is it better than disc? Well, not really -- it's more of an either-or choice; you get the same workflow as disc but in a smaller package -- is that meant to be appealing? I couldn't even edit directly! I had to "export" the MP4 files to "MXF" files before I could even bring 'em into Sony Vegas (granted, I'm using version 7, maybe that's been fixed in version 8?) What's the point of having a super-fast medium if you can't even edit from it? Had to do the same kind of thing with FCP. Goofy. Marcus should make a "Raylight" for SxS.

I dunno, folks, I mean, I can see some definite advantages (sharpness & noise mainly) but the tapeless SxS just comes off looking half-assed compared to the P2 workflow (forgive the crass term). I just don't know what clients I would recommend this product to. Interviews? Yes, definitely. ENG? No way. Weddings? Absolutely not. Film production? Maybe. People who actually LIKE XDCAM-HD discs? Sure, they'll probably love it.

I'm hoping to get some more time with it later in the month where I can put it through some more tests. Right now I'd say it's six of one, half dozen of the other. I think the HVX is a lot more workable and usable, and it's a lot less expensive. The EX1 is sharper, cleaner and more sensitive, but it's got some issues and working with it was a real pain in the patoot (comparatively; I guess if you've been using XDCAM discs then maybe this EX1 will seem sent straight from heaven but if you're used to P2 I think it'd be tough to swallow the limitations).

[marco0782]

Wow, nice review.

[ullanta]

Hey Barry! I don't know if you have an answer for this after the type of testing you did... but you specify that camera motion causes a drop in sharpness when the camera moves; how about when there's moderate motion in the frame, but the camera's still? And how bad are the rolling-shutter artifacts in high-motion scenes with a still camera?

[Drew Ott]

Nice write-up.

I'm not in the market for a camera but I still love reading about 'em.

[tmnt]

Thanks Barry, very interesting.

I don't understand how it can't have metadata though. Wtf? by the way I laughed when I saw you swear, albeit it was in asterixs. lol Could metadata stuff be added with a firmware update? (maybe the rushed the release, just guessing)

The stuff about losing res when moving the cam was interesting too, would like to see some footage.

The thing that first astounded me about the cam was how the hell you would mount a matte box? Kind of like having a house with 3 walls.

Looking forward to a more detailed write up from you.... no pressure.

[Luis Caffesse]

Nice write up as always.

One question - what's the focusing like on the camera?
You mentioned how much crisper the LCD is than the HVX, but I'm curious as to any 'focus assist' type of features.
Or is the LCD so crisp that focus isn't an issue?

[PhantomVideo]

Hi Barry, Nice review

I heard RED has a rolling shutter does it have these issues ?

[Drew Ott]

Nice write up as always.

One question - what's the focusing like on the camera?
You mentioned how much crisper the LCD is than the HVX, but I'm curious as to any 'focus assist' type of features.
Or is the LCD so crisp that focus isn't an issue?

I believe the "perfectly sharp" areas show up yellow. I've only heard it explained, never seen.

[Luis Caffesse]

I believe the "perfectly sharp" areas show up yellow. I've only heard it explained, never seen.

Nice.
Similar to the JVC 'everything in blue' focus.
I really would like to see Panasonic adopt something like that.

[Barry_Green]

Hey Barry! I don't know if you have an answer for this after the type of testing you did... but you specify that camera motion causes a drop in sharpness when the camera moves; how about when there's moderate motion in the frame, but the camera's still?
Didn't test for that. I imagine it would be the same; I doubt the camera knows why a pixel moved, the sensor just sees pixels in a different position.

This res-lowering thing puzzles me and I want to spend some more time to get to the bottom of it. I mean, I have a working theory and it all makes sense except for when I test it in a way that should reveal it -- and it doesn't pan out.

It seems like it's doing aggressive noise reduction, which averages out the fine detail across multiple frames (noise goes, as does fine detail, especially in motion). But I can't detect motion trails, like I'd expect there to be, so I'm not sure.

Overall, as a practical matter, I'm not so sure it's a bad design decision. Lowering fine detail in motion sounds bad, but it actually would help the codec out, so it's probably clever engineering. Feed the codec too much detail and it'll choke, but smooth it out a bit when the codec needs it most and you get OVERALL better results. Note: I'm not saying the res-lowering is a disaster or anything, I'm just saying that it happens. I'd have to do some real-world stuff to see if it makes a difference to the point of where I'd care; initial impression is that it's probably not much of an issue because it works in concert with the codec and that's what you'd end up with anyway. But it'd be nice to test the HD-SDI output with that Convergent XDR at 160mbps i-frame.

Even so, that'd be a largely academic test. So I don't really know the answer to this one yet, and I haven't had a chance to put it through any sort of real-world tests. And that's all I really care about; lab testing, to me, is really only a springboard to identify what type of issues might arise in a real-world circumstance.


And how bad are the rolling-shutter artifacts in high-motion scenes with a still camera?
For flashes, pretty bad. For skew? Nothing to worry about. Something'd have to be moving very, very fast to even exhibit lean. A race car, maybe. A big semi truck barrelling down the freeway, maybe.

Where the rolling shutter is going to bite you, on the EX1, is in partial-exposure flashes, and in vibration. If you reverse the motion of the camera quickly, that's when it gets bad. I want to try it with a car mount, strapped to a harley, stuff like that. For mounted on a stable tripod you shouldn't have much issues unless you encounter something like putting your tripod on a riser and someone walks across the riser, causing vibration.

[Barry_Green]

One question - what's the focusing like on the camera?
Well, there's two modes, the AF/MF mode and then the "full manual" mode. In AF/MF it's exactly like any other Sony cam. In "full manual" mode it appears to engage some sort of clutch that physically controls *something* in the lens. I'm not 100% sure how it does it, because it's a little funky. It might be true physical manual control, but if so it's based on a different type of lens design.

Did you ever use the zoom ring on a Z1/FX1? That was some fake hack-job emulation where they tried to make you think it was full manual but it wasn't at all. It was the same bogus rubbery servo stuff, but done as a ring instead of a rocker switch. Basically they tried to me-too the DVX's zoom ring, but the DVX was true physical manual. The Z1 was fake; if you drove the servo zoom motor the zoom ring wouldn't turn (no physical connection to the lens). So you could manually zoom to full wide angle, and then swap to power zoom and zoom to full telephoto but the manual zoom would still be showing full wide angle. See, no connection. But then when you swapped to "manual" mode, the lens elements would rapidly zoom back to full wide angle, so it would match what the bogus zoom ring showed, right? Only, it zoomed back at the maximum shot-transition speed, so it still took about 1.5 seconds or so to get there, so you knew it was fake. And if you tried to do a "snap zoom" you could see that there was a huge lag between how far you moved the fake manual zoom ring and how fast the zoom actually happened.

Now, with the EX1, it seems like with the focus ring they *might* have done the same thing. The zoom is absolutely pure manual, but the focus... well, it's a little odd. I'm not 100% sure on this, it's probably actually manual but it might be an improved version of what the Z1's zoom ring did. When you focus at minimum, you can then snap over to MF/AF mode and manually focus to infinity, right? And the manual focus ring marks don't move at all, so you're focused on infinity but the "manual" zoom ring still says minimum. And then when you swap into "true manual" mode, you can see the lens elements quickly re-focus back to what the manual ring says. So it's *possible* that it's the same fake stuff. However, there's a hefty "clunk" when you toggle between MF/AF and "true manual", so maybe there's some sort of clutch being engaged which is then giving a true mechanical linkage? I'm not sure.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, because it feels like it's responding truly manually, so what difference does it make? As far as feel, it's really not a big deal over the HVX's way; both provide precise repeatable manual focus with distance markings. The EX1's method is more familiar to broadcast users, but for precision and controllability they're about the same; the EX1 adds hard stops. As to whether the "true manual" is "true manual" or not, it's a difference that makes no difference. It's like Canon's 24F vs. 24P -- 24F works well enough that if there's a difference, I don't care. If the EX1's "true manual" is "true" or "fake" doesn't really matter, it performs fine.


You mentioned how much crisper the LCD is than the HVX, but I'm curious as to any 'focus assist' type of features.
Or is the LCD so crisp that focus isn't an issue?
Oh, the LCD's nowhere near enough to be reliable enough without some manner of focus assist! It's only 640x480. Blows away most camcorders' LCDs, but it's less than 1/4 of full res. So you need focus assist, definitely. The EX1 includes a full-screen "expanded focus" like the Z1/FX1, but you can actually use it while recording too (unlike Z1/FX1). It's tricky because if you forget you're in focus assist, you might be recording a very different frame than you think you are. But it's nice that they enabled full-frame. The peaking is great, you can set it in red/yellow/blue/white and you can set different levels of peaking. But, you can't use peaking and magnified focus assist at the same time -- WHY!??!?! Stupid. They definitely should let you; using "focus in red" along with "pixel-to-pixel" is heavenly on a BT-LH80. If they offered both on the EX1, I might dare say you wouldn't necessarily need any manner of external monitor. Without both together, um... maybe you can get away without a monitor, maybe you can't.

(EX1 users, if I got this wrong and you actually *can* use peaking + expanded focus together, let me know).

[Barry_Green]

Hi Barry, Nice review

I heard RED has a rolling shutter does it have these issues ?

Red has a rolling shutter, as does Infinity. I've seen skew and partial exposure on a Red, and I've seen skew on the Infinity. Claudio Miranda, ASC did a comparison of the Red and F23 and he noted that when he accidentally bumped or kicked the tripod he noticed wobble on the Red.

So it exists. But Red has also said that they've aggressively worked to reduce the issue as much as possible. And, a Red is a heavy, heavy rig once you outfit it with a cinema lens and whatnot, so it should be a lot harder to induce vibration. And if anyone's managed to tame the rolling shutter, my bet would be on Red.

But no, Red is not immune, nor is Infinity. It's a pretty safe bet that if something has a rolling shutter CMOS sensor, it's going to exhibit rolling shutter issues. Maybe they can optimize it some, but even Jim Jannard has said that it's still going to exhibit some skew. The question is: are you likely to use the product under scenarios where rolling shutter artifacts will *be* an issue? For ENG, definitely. For cinema? Maybe not. Cinema's a lot more controlled circumstance. And the Red's a cinema camera.

[Barry_Green]

Nice.
Similar to the JVC 'everything in blue' focus.
Similar but not exact; the JVC turns the screen black and white so that the only color in the frame at all is the colored peaking. The Sony doesn't do that, it leaves the image in full color and the peaking is also colored. So it's a lot easier to see the colored peaking on the JVC, in fact it's almost impossible to *miss* the peaking. On the Sony it depends on how much is in sharp focus, the peaking could be very minimal on a shallow-DOF shot or it could be all over the screen on a wide-angle outdoors deep-f-stop shot. But when there's not much in hyper-sharp focus, the peaking can get lost if it's just working on a few pixels (same with any other camera though).

But, keep in mind the JVC had a very low res viewfinder and very low res LCD and no expanded focus, so they had to be aggressive with their approach. Having peaking get lost in the color of the scene was not an option for them. I think Sony's got the peaking exactly right. I just wish they'd allow it to also work with expanded focus, then they'd have it ideal.


I really would like to see Panasonic adopt something like that.
Definitely. That's the way the BT-LH80 works, and that's why I'm gonna buy one. It'd be fantastic for all manufacturers to adopt this tech in-camera.

[WorldStuntTeam]

I got the chance to use a EX1 as well and support everything Barry said in his review. It made me want to buy a second HVX...

[Drew Ott]

Is the severity of rolling shutter the same for all cameras? I don't see how Red could possibly "reduce" it (based on what the article said about what rolling shutter artifacts are).

Also, are rolling shutter artifacts actually noticeable when viewing footage, or only on frame-by-frame type stuff?

[Luis Caffesse]

Wow Barry.
I was expecting you to just write back with "Yeah, focus in red."
I should have known better.
Thanks for the details!


there's a hefty "clunk" when you toggle between MF/AF and "true manual"

So what you're saying is that we're going to start seeing 'What's that Clunk?' threads in the Sony forum?
:)


Yeah, I know, you go to all the trouble to write that and I pick out the one lame thing I can make a joke about....

[Jared Meyer]

Thanks for the super detailed review, Barry. You touched on a lot of specific things I hadn't heard from anyone else. Unfortunately a lot of them are deal breakers for me...

I wasn't going to be able to get my hands on the camera any time soon to test it out myself so I really appreciate your hands on report.

[Barry_Green]

Is the severity of rolling shutter the same for all cameras? I don't see how Red could possibly "reduce" it (based on what the article said about what rolling shutter artifacts are).
Well, see, you're entering some tricky territory. I don't know what Red did to optimize it. I do know how Thomson tried to reduce the rolling shutter effects on the Infinity; they actually run the chip at double speed to speed up the roll rate through the frame. So when you shoot 24p, the Infinity is actually running at 48fps and discarding every other frame, but they're running at that faster rate so it'll scan down the chip faster, thus cutting the noticeability of the artifacts.

The faster they can roll down the frame, the more it starts to act like a full-frame sensor.

But I don't know what Red's doing. I do know that Jim Jannard and Jarred have both specifically said that they were aware of the issues and that they have optimized the sensor to minimize any impact from the rolling shutter.

The faster your frame rate, the faster the rolling shutter scans down the frame, and so the less skew or wobble you'll see. That's why rolling shutter stuff is worse in 24p and less noticeable in 60p/60i. I also shot some rolling shutter tests at 4fps just to see how bad it might get, but I haven't even reviewed that footage yet (and it's 5:00 a.m., so... I'm signing off here pretty soon!) :)


Also, are rolling shutter artifacts actually noticeable when viewing footage, or only on frame-by-frame type stuff?
Way noticeable on footage. Look at Matt Jepsen's FresHDV post where he showed the cop car/strobelight thing. It's all over the footage and it's also visible live; rolling shutter isn't like MPEG artifacts because you can actually see the rolling shutter artifacts happening live. As for lean/skew, the easiest way to see it is to pan one way and then reverse direction and go the other way. The faster you do this, the more lean you'll see (the same lean is there, but the transition from the vertical elements leaning to the right, to the vertical elements leaning to the left makes it a lot easier to see. When would you do such a thing in a real-world scenario? Well, I'd imagine a basketball game would be the type of thing that might bring it out. Panning fast one way, then quickly reversing direction.

The worst is vibration, because then the camera is constantly reversing direction, and that's when you get the bad "wobble." Running with the camera COPS-style, or mounting it to a Harley, or mounting it to a hard car mount or a helicopter... those are the kinds of things that'll lead to the vibration wobble.

[Barry_Green]

So what you're saying is that we're going to start seeing 'What's that Clunk?' threads in the Sony forum?
:)
No, because you *know* what that clunk is. :) I didn't test for lens clunking. The HV20 clunks though!

[Barry_Green]

Thanks for the super detailed review, Barry. You touched on a lot of specific things I hadn't heard from anyone else. Unfortunately a lot of them are deal breakers for me...

I wasn't going to be able to get my hands on the camera any time soon to test it out myself so I really appreciate your hands on report.

You really should try it yourself to see if it's a dealbreaker *for you*. I'll tell you what happens, and I'll tell you how *I* feel about it, but ultimately only you can decide if you weigh the factors the same way I do, or the same way Philip Bloom does, etc.

[Sumfun]

Thanks for the detailed review, Barry. Would be interesting to see if you still lose the motion detail when using the HD SDI.

Now it's off to bed.

[Jared Meyer]

You really should try it yourself to see if it's a dealbreaker *for you*. I'll tell you what happens, and I'll tell you how *I* feel about it, but ultimately only you can decide if you weigh the factors the same way I do, or the same way Philip Bloom does, etc.

I don't live near any large camera stores, so my chances of checking one out are pretty low. Unfortunately I have to rely mostly on online research and detailed reviews such as yours.

I've been in the market for an HD upgrade as a wedding shooter for a while now and have been comparing the HVX and XH-A! and lately the EX-1...Anyhow, by dealbreakers I mean the rolling shutter problems with flashes and fast motion, the 12 second reboot to get from SxS viewing back into record mode, and the poor ergonomics which would prohibit me from shooting one-handed, which I do with the DVX a lot.

I'll definitely try one out if I ever get the opportunity, and I love to see the amazing work people like Philip Bloom are doing with it, but at this point it's not for me. C'mon NAB '08...

[TheMusician]

Barry, always love reading your reviews. Thanks for taking the time to do it and informing us of your conclusions. One quick question - The EX1 has a button on it labeled REC REVIEW. It allows you to review the last clip that you recorded without having to switch to play mode and then returns to standbye. Did you try this solution instead of switching to play mode when reviewing the clips, and if so, did it still have a 14 second wait time? Thanks.

[Morpheus_23]

Superb assessment. Thanks.

[alpi69]

Funny that all the single pre-reports that made the EX1 sound suspicious are now actually confirmed. After last NAB everyone HAD to HAVE one, but now many are happy they didn´t buy it.
The Iris ring for me is the only really good thing on it. But the rest being confirmed by Barry makes me feel good about sticking to my HVX (for now).

Thanks for that report and I can´t wait for a real shootout.

[Barry_Green]

Thanks for the detailed review, Barry. Would be interesting to see if you still lose the motion detail when using the HD SDI.
Yes, you do. It's not the codec. That's where I first saw the issue, was on the waveform monitor connected to the SDI port.

It's not a massive problem, most people won't notice it. I just think it's curious and I want to figure out why it's happening.

[Barry_Green]

The EX1 has a button on it labeled REC REVIEW. It allows you to review the last clip that you recorded without having to switch to play mode and then returns to standbye. Did you try this solution instead of switching to play mode when reviewing the clips, and if so, did it still have a 14 second wait time? Thanks.
Rec Review lets you play back about the last two seconds of footage. It's instantaneous playback but I couldn't figure out how to make it play the whole clip, it worked like a "rec check" function. I didn't see any obvious way to make it play back a whole clip, including ff/rew, I didn't figure out how to do it.

[Leo Versola]

Yes Barry, thanks for the very informative feedback. Like many others, I don't have easy access to an EX1 and even if I did, I probably would have missed some of the, shall I say, 'finer', details of the camera.

I've been waiting patiently on the sidelines and researching like mad before making a decision on which camera to upgrade to next. Every camera has its pros and cons, and I suppose lately I was a lot closer to deciding on the EX1 than the HVX until I read your latest review. Some of the issues I could probably live with given my current style of shooting, but others will having me thinking much, much harder about.

There's always going to be a fervent group that says so-and-so is biased one way or the other, but I say, 'so #$% what?'. As long as the supplied information is accurate and repeatable, I stand a much better chance of making informed decisions about spending my hard-earned $$$ than if there was no information other than some slick, glossy brochures and flashy websites. Debate is healthy...

Thanks for the detailed review and I appreciate it.

[taormina]

Thanks Barry. Glad I have my HVX.

[Barry_Green]

I'm sure there will be many who are glad they have an EX1 as well. For sure they each do some things the other doesn't. You gotta weigh the priorities the way you see 'em.

[Kholi]

:DDD I was already hugging my HVX once more before this review. Now it's time to prepare for the next camera where I go "GOD MY HVX SUCKS I WANT A NEW CAMERA!".

Scarlet? Or HVX200A? Hmmmm.

[MikeGunter]

Thanks for the report, Barry!

[puredrifting]

Barry:

Nice report you posted. After shooting with the Z1 for a year or so before the HVX came out, you have confirmed what I suspected. Is the PMW-EX1 a decent camera? Yes. Does it have some major limitations and issues as ALL cameras do? Yes. Just like the on the Z1, you can tell that the Sony vets very few of it's cameras in front of shooters, it is obviously tweaked and massaged by engineers who don't shoot. The HVX, for all of it's limitations, does sound as if it has superior ergonomics. Sony's low end cameras are always this way. I shoot with one and just get frustrated.

After shooting hundreds of shows with the DVX, the HVX was like just slipping on a an HD version, it was so easy to use and adapt to. I know the camera so well, I can just shoot and not think about the technical stuff. I did a shoot yesterday for a client in Phildelphia and I used my DVX because they required SD and we had a lot of low light situations where I would not be able to light so the DVX seemed to be the right choice. It was amazing, I have not shot handheld with my DVX in over a year yet it was effortless and kind of nice not having the heft of the HVX as I held it over my head to get high angle shots. I have to say that compared to Sony, Panasonic just gets it on their low end cameras. I hated shooting with the Z1, love the HVX so I am sure that I would not enjoy the EX1 overall because I shoot a lot of handheld, a lot of movement, race cars, trucks on freeways (just did a lot of trains, trucks and cars for an LA Metro project). All of the stuff that the Sony would be weak on.

Philip has proven that the EX1 can make outstanding images but as for my needs, I am happier with the HVX for now.

Thanks Barry!

Dan

[Barry_Green]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention -- yes, I am certain that the HD-SDI output of the EX1 is a full 10 bits.

[reem12]

Vey good report barry.

I started out with the dvx 100a and fell in love with its film look.soon after found myself with the canon a1 in which i love.but after loads and loads of footage, i've come to this conlusion ,that panasonic delivers the most filmic representation .i've seen footage from novices that just looks right.i think canon a1 is the closest but but to me sony has always looked like very good video.even with a 35mm adapter and more so in the motion.just my opinion.

[gunleik]

Thanks Barry!


Oh, one thing I forgot to mention -- yes, I am certain that the HD-SDI output of the EX1 is a full 10 bits.

So for shooting greenscreen through HD-SDI, this is probably a smash-dunk for the EX1?

4:2:2 10 bit
Lower noise
Higher rez
Full rez pr channel

Is it possible (I guess it iss) to turn off sharpening totally?

This is where I'll test it.

Gunleik
(with 5 HVX's he likes)

[Barry_Green]

There is a menu item for turning the detail function completely off, yes.

[gunleik]

Will you be testig greenscreen through HD SDI?

Cheers & thanks for the report!

Gunleik

[Reflex Films]

I was keen on the hvx (even got a copy of Barrys DVDs and book) and then the ex1 reports started coming out. And that sounded like the way to go.

I did some work with HDV to see what i was in for - in short- it was imposible for me to edit - jumping all over the place in the timeline and on import (long gop perhaps)- it was a real dissapointment - maybe a power mac or mac book pro from the last year can deal with it - but i need smooth timeline performance as my edits are super intense (2 secs is a long shot in action and music video)

I am on a power pc g5 and am locked into my editing system for another year

I was fortunate enough to hire an HVX 202 for the last 24 hrs - filming an event in Australia from heli and then on the ground - in the crowd and backstage.

P2 is a dream to work with and DVCpro 50 imports and edits like butter (havent tried DVCPRO100 yet) in FCS 2.

The camera - after using the scene file settings (so thoroughly described in Barry's DVDs) to pull color , detail and cine gamma (and cool interval record effects)- i was just wrapped in the performance. The camera pulls out more color than my eyes do from reality- it all looks better through the viewfinder and on the timeline than in real life! Basically you can really paint a pretty picture with this light tweaking tool.

Rich color space , amazing tweakability- and the low light performance at the concert was sensational - waaaaay more latitude than i was expecting.

The ex1 was a distraction for me but i have now placed my HVX order - and frankly - i just cant believe how awesome the HVX was to use - totally blew away all expectations - and thats just in dvcpro50.

[Reflex Films]

1 more thing - start up and pause record stop etc were all superfast - so critical when you need to get the moment - i couldnt believe how real time camera operation was - another big tick for the HVX! I cant wait till mine gets here!

[SPZ]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention -- yes, I am certain that the HD-SDI output of the EX1 is a full 10 bits.

Hmm, seems like there was some truth in the rumours I heard, then...


So, in theory, it would be the CF HD-SDI recording camera of choice, no?

Barry, the main problem with this camera, for motion rendering and detail loss in motion, is due to the XDCAM EX codec, right? Wouldn't cineform's capture device resolve this issue? I know it is a workaround, but in theory it would bring the EX to HDCAM performance. ( Resolution and color wise- I know the lens is still way cheap compared to interchangeable lens solutions.)

Actually, I tried one in Tokyo two days ago. I did find the 24p very unpleasing in motion, but tought it was something I did with the settings, like doing a slow shutter, etc. I always shoot 25p with my HVX, so am quite used to 25p motion rendering. There was just something going on funky on that 24p effect. I couldn't switch the camera to 25p or 50i. Seems like it is locked for ntsc in Japan.

The camera is lightweight and smaller than the HVX. The lens handling is very good. I was just with the camera for 20 minutes, and was seeing the output to a Victor (JVC over there, I believe) 20" monitor, and it was fantastic in 60i. Way sharper than HVX. This was of course trough component out, and not HD-SDI. Depth of field was also a significant improvement from the HVX. The on camera monitor is fantastic, and more than enough for accurate focus.

I was relatively impressed with the camera, I must admit. Enough to jump for a purchase? No. I'm waiting for Panasonic's answer. But if in 6 months I do not see anything coming from the competition, the EX does seem like an upgrade from the HVX, taking into account adding the Convergent Designs or the Cineform capture box.

Upgrading to HPX brings the problem of buying completelly new support gear and selling old equipment. I hope the HVX's successor comes soon.

[William_Robinette]

I did find the 24p very unpleasing in motion, but tought it was something I did with the settings, like doing a slow shutter, etc.

I will say that after shooting with some Sony cameras I always think there is something strange with the way motion is rendered in 24p with them. Maybe it is the powerful hold DVX user has over me (:)) but when shooting on the F350 it always looks weird to my eye. I much prefer the look of my DVX in motion. I even remember seeing it on the F900 on a shoot a little while ago. I don't know what it is, but to me it's there and I am always a little weary of Sony cams because of it.

That said, overall I do like very much shooting with the F350. The work flow is great and it does make pretty pictures.

[OgdenStudios]

The difference in the chips is what interests me. The Panasonic chips are standard definition where "smoke and mirrors" turn the image into HD. This is why it is better in low light but has a softer image.

I stumbled upon this article a few weeks ago. The reviewer is admittedly a Sony rep or somehow affiliated with them but issues about lens shades and this "chip stuff" is mentioned.

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0711/camera-corner-the-sony-xd-cam-tapeless-camcorder.html

[Luis Caffesse]

The Panasonic chips are standard definition where "smoke and mirrors" turn the image into HD.


The panasonic chipset is not standard definition.
It is 960 x 540

And 'smoke and mirrors' seems like an oversimplification.
But - like you allude to - its always a compromise between resolution, dynamic range, sensitivity and noise.

[OgdenStudios]

Thanks.

I did come accross this in the article:

"However, it is worth noting that these are native 1/2" HD 1920x1080 CMOS chips with a serious amount of pixels on them. Because of all those tiny pixels they don't absorb light quite as well as standard definition CCDs that are only 720x576. It is for this reason the Panasonic's HPX500 camcorder has better low-light capabilities, because it basically has standard definition CCDs (960 X 540) in it. An in-camera Pixel Shifting technology is then used to force a HD resolution of 1280x720."

[Luis Caffesse]

I still don't know that it's fair to say "basically standard definition," but at least he qualified it in some way (and listed the actual dimensions).
It would be just wrong to say the HVX uses standard definition chips.

Might seem like nitpicking, but I just didn't want anyone to who wasn't familiar with the details to get the wrong idea.

[OgdenStudios]

I'm not throwing out my HVX. But this new ex1 does have some exciting features and the amount of footage you get per Gig........Borat- "is nice!"

[ESTEBEVERDE]

...

I stumbled upon this article a few weeks ago. The reviewer is admittedly a Sony rep or somehow affiliated with them but issues about lens shades and this "chip stuff" is mentioned.

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0711/camera-corner-the-sony-xd-cam-tapeless-camcorder.html

?????

Sorry OgdenStudios.

I wasn't able to find where he said that he was affiliated with Sony in any way.


His credits say:

"Nigel Cooper has been a professional video producer and freelance lighting cameraman since 1997. His production company specializes in SIVs (special interest videos), training DVDs, educational programs, corporate videos, music videos and the odd bit of TV broadcast work. As a freelance lighting cameraman he covers ENG work, Events, Corporate, Documentary and Commercial undertakings. Nigel's personal Web site is http://www.genericpool.co.uk (http://www.genericpool.co.uk/). Nigel is also the founder/editor of DVuser magazine: http://www.dvuser.co.uk (http://www.dvuser.co.uk/)."


Perhaps you can point out his affiliation.

Thanks.

[OgdenStudios]

Look in the pictures. That is what we do right?

[Stephen Mick]

Looks like he's wearing an EX shirt. Not sure how much that says, but I've got better things to do than try to figure it out…

Like going out and actually shooting something. :D

--SM

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Look in the pictures. That is what we do right?


Shit... I have dozens of free t shirts I wear from vendors and I have never worked for any of them.

[Barry_Green]

Will you be testig greenscreen through HD SDI?
probably not; I'd expect it to be great but I don't have a portable HD-SDI capture solution.

[Barry_Green]

So, in theory, it would be the CF HD-SDI recording camera of choice, no?
Well, that would get past the 4:2:0 and long-GOP situation, but it wouldn't do anything to minimize rolling shutter issues. So if the EX1 works for you already, the CF HD-SDI solution would make it even better (at a $5,000 price increase, so compare apples to apples). But if the rolling shutter makes it not work for you, the CF HD-SDI recorder won't do a thing about that.


Barry, the main problem with this camera, for motion rendering and detail loss in motion, is due to the XDCAM EX codec, right?
No, the codec didn't have anything to do with the detail loss issue, that happens long before the codec gets ahold of it. I didn't torture test the codec to find out what circumstances it can and can't handle so I have no comment on that yet.


I did find the 24p very unpleasing in motion, but tought it was something I did with the settings, like doing a slow shutter, etc. I always shoot 25p with my HVX, so am quite used to 25p motion rendering. There was just something going on funky on that 24p effect.
I would suspect you're probably seeing the 2:3 pulldown effect, and objecting to that. The actual 24p performance should be identical, motion-wise, among any 24p camcorder (as long as you're not doing something manipulative like JVC's "motion smoothing" which actually blends frames together). But on the HD-SDI output, it embeds the 24p with 2:3 pulldown to comply with a 60i transmission. Most cameras, and I believe all cameras in this price range, do that so it's not anything I'd "blame" the EX1 for.

But, with that said, I can't guarantee it until testing it for specific performance. There may very well be something there that you were seeing, that i didn't test for, but I doubt it.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Looks like he's wearing an EX shirt. Not sure how much that says, but I've got better things to do than try to figure it out…

Like going out and actually shooting something. :D

--SM


Can't wait to see your footage! :thumbsup:

[Barry_Green]

I still don't know that it's fair to say "basically standard definition," but at least he qualified it in some way (and listed the actual dimensions).
Granted he listed dimensions, but they're wrong. The HPX500 is 620,000 pixels per chip, whereas 960x540 is around 520,000.

Regardless, just look at the images. Saying it's "standard-def" chips is marketing spin. It's a high-def chip block that delivers a high-def image.

[mikkowilson]

I hear the EX1 only records Standard-Def color...


:evil:

- Mikko

[Luis Caffesse]

Ooops....
Sorry, read that quickly and thought it was in reference to the HVX.
Not the HPX.

Thanks for the correction, Barry.

[gunleik]

I hear the EX1 only records Standard-Def color...
:evil:
- Mikko

LOL

Gunleik

[OgdenStudios]

And used by a standard definition cinematographer....

[RE1000]

The difference in the chips is what interests me. The Panasonic chips are standard definition where "smoke and mirrors" turn the image into HD. This is why it is better in low light but has a softer image.

I stumbled upon this article a few weeks ago. The reviewer is admittedly a Sony rep or somehow affiliated with them but issues about lens shades and this "chip stuff" is mentioned.

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0711/camera-corner-the-sony-xd-cam-tapeless-camcorder.html

"But don't worry if you happen to do a bit of corporate videography during the week or weddings at the weekend, as the PMW-EX1 also shoots in native 1080i interlace mode, should a client demand it."

Interesting, no mention of the risk of getting "partial exposure" from flashes and lights common to weddings. Maybe he doesn't know of the "partial exposure" problem from CMOS, but I doubt he doesn't know.

"I believe the SxS solid-state system is what the world has been waiting for, not just because it is Sony either. Some people accuse me of flying the Sony flag a bit too often, but I have good reason to. Sony just gets it right time and time again, not only with camcorders and high-end production gear, but with hi-fi, studio recording equipment, DVD players, etc. They have a reputation for quality, reliability and products that do the job year-in-year-out. If they did not, I would use someone else's gear; I really don't care whose name is on the side of the camcorder."

He's mentioned he's used a HVX200/P2 before, but I guess he thinks SxS is god's gift to the world. He did mention the lack of metadata/proxies before, but no mention of the 14 delay to switch over to playback mode. Interesting....


"Firstly, due to the cheap cost of SxS cards and the huge amount of footage that can be recorded to them thanks to Sony's superb Long GOP MPEG2 codec, there is no need to take additional storage devices on location when you are shooting – i.e., laptops, Firewire hard drives, P2 stores and other devices. With 50 minutes of full 1920x1080 HD HQ footage on a single 16GB card, most of us will only ever need two 16GB SxS cards for an entire day's shoot, especially considering the 'delete last clip' function. Anyone who needs more than this, simply take four 16GB cards with you, or two 32GB cards. This system is much easier."

Needs no explaining...


"If you own a Sony Z1, Panasonic HVX200, JVC ProHD series or even a Canon XL H1, you will be phoning around for the best Part-Ex deal you can get after you see the quality of the footage from Sony's new PMW-EX1 – wow!!

My rating of 4 out of 5 stars is based on the pre-production unit that had a few issues not worth mentioning here as they won't be in the final production unit. This rating could well change to 5 out of 5 once I get my hands on a final unit in October"

Also needs no explaining.

That writeup is from Aug 2007, btw

[OgdenStudios]

My question is: If one is thinking about the PMW-EX1, why not consider the HPX-500? For an extra couple grand you can get into a nice shoulder-mount camera.

[ullanta]

Maybe this is off-topic, but: it seems that partial exposure problems should be relatively easy to fix in post; and I further imagine they should be fairly easy to automatically identify and fix in post. Has anyone had any good results with these? Anyone working on a plug-in to do it automatically?

[RE1000]

My question is: If one is thinking about the PMW-EX1, why not consider the HPX-500? For an extra couple grand you can get into a nice shoulder-mount camera.

Well not everyone wants or needs a shoulder cam. A good amount of people need a HVX/EX1 sized camera with those type of functions.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Looks like he's wearing an EX shirt. Not sure how much that says, but I've got better things to do than try to figure it out…

Like going out and actually shooting something. :D

--SM


To be sure this makes him either a fanboi or cheap free shirt waring bastard but it doesn't in itself make him a Sony employee or plant.


As to his review... RE1000 pointed out some of the more glaring weaknesses.

[William_Robinette]

My question is: If one is thinking about the PMW-EX1, why not consider the HPX-500? For an extra couple grand you can get into a nice shoulder-mount camera.

Of course that is without a lens or battery system. And of course something more substantial then a Bogen 501 head.

The HPX is not a functioning camera for the $12k or so the body goes for.

[Stevet]

(PART II)

-- rolling shutter bullcrap.

Barry, last month you mentioned you had a RED on order with the total cost hitting some high numbers, how would you compare the rolling shutter artifacts to the EX1?

Out of everything you wrote, the most valid I read is rolling shutter, and the image going a bit soft during movement.

I did some test tonight regarding the softness. You mentioned it did not seem most of this was probably not due to motion blur.
Did you try the same tests with 720 60P, or 1080i?, faster shutter speeds.

I did and it does get better (as it should) with the above mentioned. Also, I'm not sure if you can rely on the Sony's peaking response speed. This might add a tad of visual peaking delay. Having said that, it may be a bit softer than it should be under those conditions. I'll have to do some more experiments.

If it is, it makes me wonder if this is not directly correlated to the CMOS rolling shutter design, or as you metion the possibility of some sort of active NR that's always on. This may slow down the response time?

[taormina]

Actually the killer for me was the lameness of the startup / shutdown and the SxS stuff.

[Barry_Green]

how would you compare the rolling shutter artifacts to the EX1?
Haven't gotten my hands on a Red One yet so I can't compare the two. I'm still a tad torn on that -- I mean, even if the Red One has it and it's a problem, the backlog of rentals should probably mean that I could cover the cost of it in short order so... that could greatly lower the risk of buying, so -- do I care all that much? If I can pay it off in a couple of months' work, then it's free, right? But I'd like to get some answers on the severity (or lack thereof) of the rolling shutter artifacts on the Red. I'm looking to Jim Arthurs' report for that, he's supposed to test the Red One for rolling shutter and how it affects motion tracking and match moving very soon (this week or next, I believe).

I would love to test it before plunking down the money, believe me. I'm kind of hoping that the weight will lend some inertia to balance out the issue. But... if the rental income is there, I'd be a fool to pass on it if the customer doesn't care about the issue, right? Right? Still trying to be sure about this, as it's a decent chunk of change (around $50k).

Frankly, even if the rolling shutter response was identical between the two, as a practical matter it may still be less of a factor for the Red because I think the EX1 is far more likely to be put into scenarios where the rolling shutter would compromise the footage than the Red is. The Red's particularly unsuited to sports or news coverage or weddings, those are places where the EX1 is far more likely to be found, and those are places where flashes and running handheld footage and such are more likely to happen and therefore interact with the rolling shutter in undesirable ways. The Red seems like it's going to spend its life in tightly controlled studio circumstances and therefore even if it has the issue, it shouldn't come into the equation as much. But, also, the Red will likely be used for a *lot* of matchmoving and compositing tasks, and those are the kind of tasks that sent Russ Andersson into a rant about the HV20's rolling shutter so -- errr... you got me wavering again. Hmm. I'd really like to see what Jim comes up with!


Did you try the same tests with 720 60P, or 1080i?, faster shutter speeds.
720p seems like simple pixel binning to me, probably binning on the vertical. Didn't seem to be too much compelling reason to use that format so I didn't spend a lot of time on it, I figure that most EX1 users are going to go for 1080 mode (especially since they take up the same amount of bandwidth) so I only briefly forayed into 720. I did play with faster shutter speeds, and at 1/2000th I got stable detail rendering, which would seem to mean that the detail loss is simple motion blur, but -- it just doesn't feel like it adds up to just motion blur. It seems like there's something else at work that I can't quite identify. I mean, other cameras don't lose as much detail at the same shutter speeds, so I still think it's due to some aggressive detail coring and noise reduction, and with the super-short shutter speeds it probably has enough interframe intelligence to know to not attempt blending frames on such disparate images, maybe? I dunno. Like I said, I guess it's possible that it's just motion blur but everyone who watched the waveform monitor was like "whoa, what's happening here?" I'm not escalating this to the point of "ooh, this is a problem, don't buy it", but I am saying that it's curious and it seemed a lot more pronounced on the EX1 than on any other camera I've used or tested.

I don't know whether it'd be related to CMOS or not, I can't really think of why it would be, it seems like it's more related to aggressive noise reduction. I didn't put the HV20 to that kind of test, and that's the only other CMOS video camera I've had my hands on, so maybe it's CMOS-related but I don't see why it should be.

[Jared Meyer]

My question is: If one is thinking about the PMW-EX1, why not consider the HPX-500? For an extra couple grand you can get into a nice shoulder-mount camera.
The EX-1 is $6700. The cheapest HPX package with a lens is around $16k-17k, and that doesn't allow for any P2 cards. Hardly a next step up, IMO.

Honestly I'd be hard-pressed to think that there are many who would be trying to decide between these two. Totally different budgets- and the question of shoulder mount versus handheld alone seems enough to separate the types of shooters looking for a new system. Just my two cents.

EDIT

Whoops, didn't read carefully enough...William Robinette said basically the same thing up above.

[DCSensui]

And used by a standard definition cinematographer....

So what's the standard definition of standard definition?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

depends on how you define it

[David Saraceno]

who's on first?

[Steve Shovlar]

There's a EX1 V HVX200 shootout here.
http://www.pairofhands.net/Ex1%20vs%20HVX%20Shootout.html

Looking at the footage and stills, the EX1 wins. Unfortunately the cameras were not white balanced.

[taormina]

There's a EX1 V HVX200 shootout here.
http://www.pairofhands.net/Ex1%20vs%20HVX%20Shootout.html

Looking at the footage and stills, the EX1 wins. Unfortunately the cameras were not white balanced.

Yeah, and as was discussed in another thread, a few people feel the HVX didn't get very good representation in that shootout.

[Kholi]

There's a EX1 V HVX200 shootout here.
http://www.pairofhands.net/Ex1%20vs%20HVX%20Shootout.html

Looking at the footage and stills, the EX1 wins. Unfortunately the cameras were not white balanced.

That's DEFINITELY a surprise to me. Because, it looks like the EX-1 is the one being misrepped so early in it's life. Stills do nothing. The video posted there makes the EX-1 look like garbage, honestly.

The sky rendered in the skateboard footage looks like bad greenscreen. The motion rendering is really strange-looking when the guy's moving. People really do see with different eyes, I would DEFINITELY choose the HVX over the EX-1 if this was the footage that was going to make or break my decision.

Again, Stills mean very little when you consider the camera isn't made to produce stills, but moving images.

[daktulus]

The EX1 is sharper, that´s for sure.
But when you look at the EX1´s colours and contrast in the skateboard clip: it looks awful. Videoish at its worst. Ridiculous.
Hopefully with some tweaking the EX1 could look better, because if this is all there is, the HVX wins big time.

On screen it´s not only the resolution that counts, it is colours, contrast and mood.
When thinking of an afternoon in the sun, you think of the pictures that were shot with the HVX.

If only my HVX wouldn´t have this chromatic aberration issue in full tele, I´d love it dearly.:crybaby:

[puredrifting]

In my mind, Philip Bloom has already demonstrated that the EX-1 is capable of stunning footage. I think that Barry's synopsis of his time with the EX-1 already has made up my mind that I think that the HVX suits my needs better.

Daktulus, hate to say it but CA isn't going to matter to 99.96% of most audiences. All of the low end cameras and many high end cameras have it. Light and compose well and have killer sound and most people will take your project as a quality piece of work. The rest is story and concept. Things like CA are for us nit pickers but as far as audiences, they could care less and will never notice it.

Dan

[mikkowilson]

I've seen horrible CA out of a HD-750. It happens to the best of them.


- Mikko

[Kholi]

It's really funny what we'll nitpick about here on DVXuser (I'm guilty as well, s'why I grouped myself with the term). Watching MUSIC AND LYRICS with my girlfriend last night, I noticed "halo" Bokeh in the background that was VERY apparent. It was two green lights that looked like the XH-A1 smudge effect that we saw with Kaku Ito's early footage.

I remember people complaining and goin' on about it, then I see it in this big budget movie existing in plain sight and I realize that it just isn't any sort of deal breaker.

And neither is CA, High Resolutions (Please see: Soderbergh's success and the upcoming CLOVERFIELD movie (reported to be helmed on HVX200's, proof still pending).

But, we've already beat this specific horse to a bloody mess of blood and bone shard.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I always enjoy reading your post Kholi!

:beer:


... (reported to be helmed on HVX200's, proof still pending).
...

Actually "Variety" is reporting this:

"The film starts out with the Panasonic, then moves into transitional sequences shot with a 3-lb. Canon for about a third of the film." (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1144099&postcount=65)


When I read it and read that the titles for George Clooney's Leatherheads (http://www.hv20.com/showpost.php?p=43028&postcount=6) were filmed on the HV20 I actually thought of you.

No joke. :thumbsup:

[Stevet]

Stills are stills, agreed!
Also, let's face it, with all due respect to the person who shot these, why was the white balance not corrected? Bring the shots into your editor and white balance them. The EX1 was way cool, and the HVX200 was also a bit on the cool side.
I brought them both in and it sure makes a huge difference.

Also, for the sake of the HVX200, was there not enough light in the skateboard shot? Looking at the sun hitting the background, it appears as there was enough light to offer a better exposure.

[Stevet]

Like I said, I guess it's possible that it's just motion blur but everyone who watched the waveform monitor was like "whoa, what's happening here?" I'm not escalating this to the point of "ooh, this is a problem, don't buy it", but I am saying that it's curious and it seemed a lot more pronounced on the EX1 than on any other camera I've used or tested.

I

Thanks Barry.

Is there a more definative test?
It seems somewhat normal for movement, but does leave a bit of wondering.

Since higher shutter speeds improve motion clarity (as it should), It just doesn't make sense that if there is some sort of detail coring or dynamic noise reduction that it would react less to a higher shutter speed. Also noise levels seem consistent regardless of shutter speed.

Having said this, I believe this is what you were saying in your post.
If you can think of a way of gaging this, I'd be interested in your results.

[Michael Friedman]

Actually "Variety" is reporting this:

"The film starts out with the Panasonic, then moves into transitional sequences shot with a 3-lb. Canon for about a third of the film." (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1144099&postcount=65)


Which camera are they talking about. The Canon A1? I am trying to think of another 3lb canon. ...

[RE1000]

Here's some "problem" samples

Strobe test (http://www.helioxfilm.hu/xdcam/xdcam%20ex%20strobe%20test.pdf) showing partial exposure.

EX1 Wobble footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g6cTLzjmc)

Skewing (http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/EX1/ROLLING_SHUTTER_EX1.mov)

[PhantomVideo]

I will say that after shooting with some Sony cameras I always think there is something strange with the way motion is rendered in 24p with them. Maybe it is the powerful hold DVX user has over me (:)) but when shooting on the F350 it always looks weird to my eye. I much prefer the look of my DVX in motion. I even remember seeing it on the F900 on a shoot a little while ago. I don't know what it is, but to me it's there and I am always a little weary of Sony cams because of it.

That said, overall I do like very much shooting with the F350. The work flow is great and it does make pretty pictures.

totally just like collateraill it was one of the first big pictures to be shoot with the F900 anytime anyone moves quick it just looks like weird video

[SPZ]

totally just like collateraill it was one of the first big pictures to be shoot with the F900 anytime anyone moves quick it just looks like weird video

I always tought Collateral, as well as Miami Vice, where shot with a 24or 25 shutter for that strange motion look- but from your comments, it feels like it is really a Sony motion interpretation thing... If that is so, I'd ratter deinterlace than use Sony's 24p...

[Life in a Box Films]

That's DEFINITELY a surprise to me. Because, it looks like the EX-1 is the one being misrepped so early in it's life. Stills do nothing. The video posted there makes the EX-1 look like garbage, honestly.

The sky rendered in the skateboard footage looks like bad greenscreen. The motion rendering is really strange-looking when the guy's moving. People really do see with different eyes, I would DEFINITELY choose the HVX over the EX-1 if this was the footage that was going to make or break my decision.

Again, Stills mean very little when you consider the camera isn't made to produce stills, but moving images.

Yes it's odd, I've seen many people say the EX wins, but in these tests, overall to me the HVX produces a much more pleasing image, referring specifically to the skate footage. It actually stood out to me quite immediately.

The EX is sharper, but still looks very video next to the HVX.

I've contemplated swapping my HVX for the EX, as with some color correction, you might be able to bring the images pretty close. But I'm really concerned about the 25 sec it takes to go back and forth on the camera modes. This along with the the cmos oddities, makes it a tough sell, at least if one already has an HVX and has to go through the process of selling and such.

If I was starting from square one, it would be a hard decision.

[Steve Shovlar]

Well I am pleased to say my HVX sold on ebay over the weekend I am will soon have in my hands one of these super Sony EX1's with two 16 Gb cards. 140 minute recording over the two cards as well.

I liked my HVX, but it had some serious shortcomings and was next to useless in darker spaces where it was impossible to bring in lighting. The blocky grain was just too much to live with in the end, and the P2 solution, although solid, has the draw back of the cards being too small. I had a firestore, also just sold, which got over that problem but then I had the added inconvenience of carrying a bit of a large weight.

I have read Barrys judgement on here, but I would like to say, if the EX1 had been brought out by Panasonic, whould he have written an identical post? Please don't take this as a dig Barry. Just an honest question.

The Sony is a better lens, sharper image, bigger and better chips, superior low light and a whole heap of advantages over the HVX. But then it should as its a more expensive camera. Sure, there are things the HVX does better, like the solid DVCPOHD Codec, but overall the Sony wins out IMO, and Panasonic need to come back to the table with a HVX300 that will have me putting this new EX1 on Ebay.

I pride myself with not being in any camp. I liked my FX1 when it came out. But the HVX200 was better, so the FX1 went to someone else. Now Sony have upped the anti with the EX1, so out goes my HVX200. The footage posted on here has been poor quality, but you don't need to look any further than Phil Blooms footage to see just how well the camera performs. Some are saying it looks like video and not film, but it has 24P and its a case of setting the camera up to get the look you like. It's a cleaner image but if you like the grain of the HVX its easy enough to add it in post. Or stick with the HVX.

I got a good price for my HVX, and I really felt it was the right time to sell it. With the EX1 coming along and selling like hot cakes, I expect to se a lot of used HVX200's on Ebay as many upgrade.

So come on Panasonic, prove to me that I made the wrong call in buying the EX1. Bring out a show stopper in the hVX300, with bigger chips, sharper and better lenas, much cheaper and much bigger P2 cards and ahost of inovations so that I would be able to resist/

[reem12]

Steve that was a very balanced post,but let me tell you in reference to the ex1s 24p, 25p filmlook.

i'm a major phillip bloom fan and groupy so to speak,but when i downloaded his quicktime file from his ex1 footage and put it to dvd for playback on the tv.it screamed
vidddddeo!mainly in the motion,and the color did not render as nearly rich as the hvx.

i did the same process with posted footage from the hvx and its filmlook probably coul of fooled spielberg.

[taormina]

Steve - I think barry's views about SxS and startup times are very valid. Either the camera misbehaves this way or it doesn't. Plus rolling shutter.

So you given some up to get some. It all depends on what works for you.

[Barry_Green]

I have read Barrys judgement on here, but I would like to say, if the EX1 had been brought out by Panasonic, whould he have written an identical post? Please don't take this as a dig Barry. Just an honest question.
If Panasonic had introduced this identical product, and Sony had previously introduced the HVX identical as it is now, then yes you would have seen an identical post. Word for word. I'm a fan of the Panasonic cams because of the product, not because of the brand. I used Sony and Sony only up until the DVX came out. Bought one of the first VX1000s and endlessly rented the DSR250, DSR300, PD150, VX2000, and DSR500.

The DVX changed everything. It was revolutionary. It opened up markets. It was a no-compromise product at a great price point. It was sooooo much better than anything else anywhere near its price point, that I got rid of my Sony cams and got one. The HVX was the same way -- it wasn't just an HD HVX, they added tapeless and variable frame rates too, both revolutionary steps. Since the DVX I keep looking to see what else is out there; bought an HD100 (crap), ordered an XHA1 (got it as a rental instead to evaluate, found it was no big deal and no reason to switch), bought an HV20 (gave it away), and put the EX1 through its paces, and have ordered a Red One.

I believe better is better, so I keep looking for better. The Sony's image is sharper, yes, but in many workflow ways it's a *huge* step back from the P2 system. I thought the overall product was not, collectively, "better" than what I already had. Some things were, some things were definitely not.


The Sony is a better lens
How?

sharper image
Yep.

bigger [chips]
Yep.

and better chips
Hell no. CMOS rolling shutter sucks.

superior low light
Yes.

and a whole heap of advantages over the HVX
Name one. Besides the three I allowed for up above, and the better LCD and HD-SDI ports, what is a single advantage the EX1 has over the HVX? From my perspective it's all downhill after those things. It's impossible to handhold, it's an ergonomic nightmare, its SxS workflow pales in comparison to P2, its rolling shutter makes certain types of shots either less-useful or downright unusable, you can't stream video (except HDV), it doesn't have a host mode, it doesn't have any provision for standard-def, it doesn't have a tape drive for those times when you just need to shoot a tape and hand it off to someone, etc. And it costs 30% more. Do its advantages, and the disadvantages, translate into you thinking it's worth 30% more? If so, it's the right product for you. But all those factors have to be weighed together.

I'm not saying it's a bad product. I'm just saying that there are many factors that should go into someone's decision, and it'd be helpful to focus on what *is*, rather than what the marketing departments tell us.


But then it should as its a more expensive camera. Sure, there are things the HVX does better, like the solid DVCPOHD Codec, but overall the Sony wins out IMO, and Panasonic need to come back to the table with a HVX300 that will have me putting this new EX1 on Ebay.
If you've weighed the factors and decided that overall the EX1 suits your purposes better, that's great -- you've done your homework and come to your decision. But not everyone will weigh the factors equally. Those who just chant that the EX1 is "better" do a disservice to those who may weigh other factors very differently than the EX1-buyer did. So it's in everyone's best interests to discuss what the product is, warts and all.


I pride myself with not being in any camp.
I pride myself in being in one camp: the user's. With an emphasis on the filmmakers and production company's users, but with a perspective on all users and what's the right product for them.

Look, I hate using the FireStore. But for certain uses it's unquestionably the "better" choice. I hate HDV, everyone knows that, but for certain uses it's the right choice. I hate the rolling shutter, everyone knows that -- I'm producing a doc in 2008 on two rolling-shutter HV20's in HDV. Why? Because they're the ideal camera for this doc! An HVX would be an extraordinarily inconvenient choice for this particular picture, and even a DVX is way too big for this particular pic.


So come on Panasonic, prove to me that I made the wrong call in buying the EX1. Bring out a show stopper in the hVX300, with bigger chips, sharper and better lenas, much cheaper and much bigger P2 cards and ahost of inovations so that I would be able to resist/
I don't know that they will though -- they serve the market that they serve, and they'll probably make their product better for that market (or invent a new market, etc). But if you've moved on, that's fine, that doesn't mean that the rest of the market has, you know what I mean? People find this hard to fathom, but Panasonic still sells *lots* of DVX100s. If we only went by what DVXUsers read, you'd think the DVX was d.o.a., but I still sell probably four DVX books for every one copy of The HVX Book. There are tons of them out there and they still move, even though many of our users on this board would think that 4:3 SD is long dead.

We used to engage in heavy camcorder wars about "this is the only choice, etc". We don't need to do that anymore. Finally most everyone's on the same page with the basics: HD, 16:9, 24P. You can get that from every major manufacturer now. When we had the camcorder wars it was because there was really only one manufacturer offering an ideal filmmaker's cam, the DVX. Now you can get an XHA1, HD100, XLH1, EX1, HVX, HV20, HV30, V1U, etc. They're everywhere. So it's no longer about such an obvious choice as "should I use the VX2000 or the DVX" -- sorry, that was an *obvious* choice. Or "should I use the FX1 or the HVX" -- that was also a *painfully obvious" choice. Now it's a case of that they all have the core basic feature set, so there's not really any "wrong" choice, there are different choices, but there are BIG differences between those choices for certain users.

That's what our task in 2008 is going to be, is to educate buyers on what the differences are so they can make an *educated*, *informed* choice -- not a fanboy choice, of the type that has existed in the past and results in people "piling on" to the "popular choice". Just because something's popular does not make it the right choice.

[Stevet]

I'm sorry video has always looked like video to me....
It doesn't matter which camera. Some may be a bit more convincing, but it's not dramatic. It's a lot to do with composition, so yes controlled DOF is important.
It gives your eyes somewhere to focus instead of a large flat image.
Cadence is also important. Stepping though 24 frames, is stepping through 24 frames.... Interframe vs Intraframe. Yes, I agree group frame compression is not the best, but also poor frame to frame compression is not good either.

Video noise............. Don't get me going here..... hate it... no matter if someone really "wants" to believe it looks like film grain. I dislike it regardless of ANY video camera. Also, believe me. I could care less who make a camera. Heck, if Matel came out with one that produced decent footage at a reasonable cost, it would catch my attention.
I'm hoping RED Scarlet turns into something along the lines of the EX1 / HVX, but improves over both at a decent cost.

[dlang]

You know I'm a little confused. After going through the test shoot comparison I've come out liking the image of the HVX200 better. As I went through the pictures it was clear the Ex1 exceeded in things I drool over aka....sharpness, low light, clean image, yet I couldn't help but be drawn to the HVX image?? The EX1 just seemed to be, like has already been said, too videoish' like BBC or something.
This is where I'm confused what is making it seem that way? Is the fact that it is sharper making it look more like video? is it the way it renders color? The HVX was definately softer but just look more like film.

[Stevet]

Those who just chant that the EX1 is "better" do a disservice to those who may weigh other factors very differently than the EX1-buyer did.

Amen!
That's what i've been saying right along. You really need to try before buy!
This is a costly adventure. Make sure it does what "you" want not someone elses perception.

[Stevet]

You know I'm a little confused. After going through the test shoot comparison I've come out liking the image of the HVX200 better. As I went through the pictures it was clear the Ex1 exceeded in things I drool over aka....sharpness, low light, clean image, yet I couldn't help but be drawn to the HVX image?? The EX1 just seemed to be, like has already been said, too videoish' like BBC or something.
This is where I'm confused what is making it seem that way? Is the fact that it is sharper making it look more like video? is it the way it renders color? The HVX was definately softer but just look more like film.

Then, you've answered your question. If you like the look and it's capabilites (Which it excels in), it's the right camera for you.

[reem12]

if your shooting indi films i'd recomend the hvx 200, and if your shooting reality tv, go for the ex1.it's all about your shooting needs.

[JConnors]

If anyone can use a conventional top-loading mattebox I'd like to know which brand. I've had Chrosziel, CAVision, and now Vocas, and I don't see how any of 'em could work with this EX1.


I don't think there's way to clear that mic for top loading, our 4x5.65 clamp on matte box, the filters need to be inserted from the bottom, that's really the only way we've been able to mount it, and it clears the mic. http://www.cavision.com/pictures/EX1/EX1.htm

And yeah, why the hell does Sony do this, same thing with the Z1U/FX1, pain in the ass to get around.

J

[Ted Spencer]

Here's some "problem" samples

Strobe test (http://www.helioxfilm.hu/xdcam/xdcam%20ex%20strobe%20test.pdf) showing partial exposure.

EX1 Wobble footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g6cTLzjmc)

Skewing (http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/EX1/ROLLING_SHUTTER_EX1.mov)

All very informative, Thanks.

But the "skewing "clip...it skews all nasty for certain, but wait a second...does this also illustrate the motion-based resolution loss that Barry noted in his review? Or is it a YouTube compression artifact? If it's the former, it (along with the nasty skewing) it would seem to be a real concern. The background in the shot goes wicked blurry/lo-rez looking as the camera pans, in a way that is not at all familiar to my eye vs my HVX or a film camera.

I'd be particularly interested in hearing what Barry makes of this particular clip.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Hey Stevet~

Have you been able to replicate the skewing with the back and forth earthquake shaking?

Can you post some clips of a few pans with motion in the shot?

Thanks! :beer:

[Stevet]

I'll post some stuff. As Barry and MANY other have mentioned, there's definately skew going on with quick pans.
But, under "normal" use, I'm not seeing an issue. I also shoot in 24P, so I use the typical 24 frame camera cautions (judder). Yes, before everyone gets keyboard happy, my normal use may not be yours.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Thanks Stevet! :beer:

[lawriejaffa]

Yah precisely there is no need to continually justify faults, 'normal' use is completely subjective, point is its faults are faults which is an issue no camera is without, and its good there now being made aware of so it can be truly evaluated.

Apart from the practical issues relating to ergonomics or the implementation of some controls (such as playpack and record delays) one gripe i would have, is simply the cadence or motion of the footage.

Technically it should be identical, but in ordinary pans and such like there is a video-esque quality to it that is less appealing.

I cannot help but think that the ex has going for it this singular high res native chipset, at the cost of a range of visual aesthetics, relating to colour and cadence. Even the graded footage of Philip Bloom while gorgeous was of the video aesthetic, compared to the footage i've seen on an HVX, I can't myself get as excited as say u stevet!

The footage bloom took of the park was very attractive but not very filmlike in its sharpness or motion (of which there was a distinct lack of!) in camera movement. Like someone said, it smacks of Discovery HD hehe, which is good for docs, but for the filmlook is dissatisfying.

So i'm not convinced yet, I would also be deeply unnerved by the possibility of some 'issue' occuring that was unforeseen (relating to the global shutter.)

Its almost as if too much emphasis in its design has been placed at getting the highest res chipsets into the cheapest cam for the best visual/marketing buck, which can look impressive in stills or zoomed in stills hehe, but has proven less impressive to me, when all is seen moving.

I think the guys that would love this cam are those excited by the sharpness of the resoluton, it can't be the colour reproduction, ergonomics, cadence or workflow (imo) and so it all feels very gimicky, it certainly doesn't feel very revolutionary.

Now that said, the EX is a plain 'evolution' of sony design, but for the time that has passed since the hvx, i think its plain to see that the sony designers of this cam were less influenced by the would be budget filmmaker than they were by the demands of a far broader market - one impressed by different qualities.

My company could buy an ex or two but i myself will go for another hvx, and (possibly an hpx body lol er, can i borrow one o u guys lenses haha.)

However what annoys me is some of these issues the EX has, because I would love to have something as 'sharp' as that for a lot of the corporate stuff i do, for big exhibition screens that merge graphics and animated logos etc and even for creative stuff (less movement orientated hehe but things where its strengths come into play.)

Don't get me wrong theres folk that obviously love the EX, (bar their naive fanboy appraisals) its all good too, but its not got me peeing in my pants and unless im missing something i don't still quite get what the fuss is all about!

That said im also dying to test it, im sure there will be some wow factors there, its annoying but an associate of mine (from pd150, 170 to the EX) is away on his travels presently. But soon oh soon ill get a chance to play with it!

[Stevet]

You're right about faults, But -It's all about what faults you can live with . Noise and macroblocking are definately not mine, that'w why we ditched the HVX200 after using it for one month.

[gunleik]

Technically it should be identical, but in ordinary pans and such like there is a video-esque quality to it that is less appealing.

/rant off...

Gunleik

[Barry_Green]

I'd be particularly interested in hearing what Barry makes of this particular clip.
Er... well... let's just say that I'd love to see the original footage. I wouldn't want to comment based on a recompressed version like that. Obviously there's a bump and some wobble in there, but the res drop is massive and it would be unfair to characterize that as coming from the camera unless we could view the original MP4 file. But that's one nasty-lookin' clip; it'd be good to get to the bottom of what happened there.

[Postmaster]

Have you checked the still pics in that 2hands shootout?
The arial shot tells it all.
Yes, the Ex is sharper but what is that sharpness when you pay for it with color banding in the sky (here you see the merrits of 4:2:2) and the trees look like oil painting as on a old VHS?

I´m hugging my HVX every time I see that EX1 Material.

Frank

[Steve Shovlar]

You're right about faults, But -It's all about what faults you can live with . Noise and macroblocking are definately not mine, that'w why we ditched the HVX200 after using it for one month.

This is very true. I have lived with it for 20 months but enough is enough. In good lighting conditions the HVX is fine. Film a wedding in a dimly lit 15th century church with only natural light and you are in serious trouble. the macro blocking is very unsightly.


lawriejaffa.
You say you are unimpressed by the EX1, yet you haven't yet had the opportunity to have a play with it. I am sure when you do get the opportunity you would be impressed. But whether or not its the camera for you only you can answer. Personally speaking, it fits the bill for me and does nearly everything I will use it for. And because of that its a step up from the HVX200, which failed pretty miserably for me on several occassions.

[SPZ]

Most of the cine looks can be achieved in post-production. But 25 and 24p motion rendering don't!

What I saw of the EX1 motion rendering was worrying. But I merely had the camera for 15 minutes on a fixed setting, so maybe it was me setting it up wrong.

I was impressed with the DOF, the sharp picture, and lack of noise. Was this enough for making me change my HVX to an EX? No.

Panasonic's cinegamma is not merely color correction. I don't know how to explain it, but there's something to it that I've never seen in any other manufacturer camcorder footage.

[lawriejaffa]

Well maybe im just lucky lol but macroblocking is not something that happens commonly with my footage, i mean its hard not to notice it lol, i've never seen the topics of these forums filled with outraged minions going on about macroblocking in the hvx, so presumably this is no more a prob than on any cams!? (and far less a prob id think on many of the 25mg hdv cams personally.)

However I can totally understand why one would prefer the EX for wedding vids and docus where available light sources were more limited, particularly interiors with available light.

I'ts never crossed my mind really that the hvx was the best choice to make for videography, so sure for that the ex would obviously be far more forgiving to limited light sources.

As a filmmaker though I take care to light properly, and as such the hvx delivers a beautifully rendered filmic like image. Its not unlike how I might prefer a few years ago to use a Sony pd170 for videography/corporate and a dvx for film!

[Steve Shovlar]

Difference was the PD170 is interlaced while the DVX is 24P.

The EX1 and the HVX200 are both interlaced AND Progressive.

[lawriejaffa]

Yah, well my point was that despite that fact, the difference is still marked as if it were a pd170 and a dvx i was choosing between... ;)

[aleyland]

Does anyone think the Ex1 would be suitable for filming snowboarding?

Any idea if the rolling shutter artifacts, wooble or half exposed frame would come into play? Would the camera would half expose a frame if photographers were shooting the same action with flashes?

I've heard a couple people mention the camera to use for shooting snowboarding but after reading posts I figure its totally not suited to fast action, with high possibilities for vibrations and shooting simultaneously with flash photography. I am already imagining it being much to heavy to follow-cam with.

Any ideas?

[puredrifting]

Not sure about the rolling shutter artifacts, other than they do become apparent with flash, but I do know that the ergonomics on this camera are regarded as pretty poor for handheld shooting. Front heavy, side heavy and just basically a big box with a lens. Do you shoot snowboarding mostly handheld or on sticks or a jib?

Dan

[Stevet]

That's a good question. It may not be suitable due to weight. As far as rolling shutter, you may have to ask around if anyone has put it through this test.

Rolling shutter artifacts are there when tossing the camera around. How pronounced they show will depend on each situation. I shot some action soccer with the camera with fast hard panning. There was some skew, but with the motion blur due to the fast move, it was not real obvious (shot at 720 60P). Also there was not a lot of skew at that given fast pan speed, but it was there. Now having said that, I imagine it would be more obvious at higher frame rates and shutter speeds where the action has less blur.

[aleyland]

Not sure about the rolling shutter artifacts, other than they do become apparent with flash, but I do know that the ergonomics on this camera are regarded as pretty poor for handheld shooting. Front heavy, side heavy and just basically a big box with a lens. Do you shoot snowboarding mostly handheld or on sticks or a jib?

Dan

mostly tripod, pretty much only handheld if i'm shooting with a fisheye.
i bet that thing would be a beast with a fisheye on it... way too heavy.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Is the EX1 loosing resolution and focus as you pan?

I don't mean Indy 500 whipping pans... but just regular old pans?!?!?!?

[puredrifting]

Is the EX1 loosing resolution and focus as you pan?

I don't mean Indy 500 whipping pans... but just regular old pans?!?!?!?

You read Barry's test, right? I can't say, I have not shot with the camera, but I trust Barry's eye.

Dan

[Barry_Green]

Also there was not a lot of skew at that given fast pan speed, but it was there. Now having said that, I imagine it would be more obvious at higher frame rates and shutter speeds where the action has less blur.
It's actually the opposite: it's more obvious at slower frame rates. If you did a 90-degree pan in 1 second, you'd see more skewing if you shot 24p than if you shot 60p. The faster your frame rate, the faster the shutter scans down the frame.

Higher shutter speeds or slower shutter speeds have no effect on the amount of skew/wobble etc. But the slower your shutter speed, the more likely you'll hide the effect under blur. It'll be equally skewed etc., but less noticeable because it'll be blurrier due to a slower shutter speed.

[taormina]

Dan, I agree. And you and I often agree, don't we?

"I trust Barry's eye". So do I. And I'm not a Barry Green ass kissing psycophant. I won't buy the EX over his review. Frankly, I'm waiting patiently for his RED ultimatum. His views will literally make me order the camera or not.

To me it's like buying a Ferrari. If Michael Shumacher says the car sucks, it sucks, and I don't need to test it further. My time is way too valuable to prove someone more capable than I wrong.

Thanks for the thorough test, Barry. And thanks for saving me a bunch of time on purchasing gear.

FYI - If Barry says that tomorrow the new hot deal is a JVC - I'll buy it. I am totally brand agnostic.

[Stephen Mick]

Now that's not true Adam. You're sold on the Barry Green brand, like the rest of us. :D

--SM

[Luis Caffesse]

Personally I think Barry's just waiting for the right time to release his own line of cameras....
that's right........the GREEN


(I'd buy one)

[taormina]

me too!

[Barry_Green]

Personally I think Barry's just waiting for the right time to release his own line of cameras....
that's right........the GREEN


(I'd buy one)
Get in line, my furry friend -- we've already had a thread discussing designing it, and someone dubbed it the Green One. :) So the design's ready, now it just needs to go into production. Small hitch in the plan -- I'm not a billionaire yet. So as soon as I get that part in place, we can go into production. The whole becoming-a-billionaire is taking a little longer than I had planned on though. :)

[Jason Ramsey]

Allow me to donate to your cause... I give you 10 bucks worth of chuck-e-cheese tokens... it's a start.

Later,
Jason

[TedRR]

Barry, I'll donate as well. I'll buy you a beer at NAB. :D
At least it will help you get over how long it's taking to become a billionair! I'm still working on that myself. (No not the camera).

[Sumfun]

Barry, maybe you can ask Jim Jannard for some advice.

[gunleik]

Toss over a million, and I'll tell you! :)

G

[Jan_Crittenden]

However I can totally understand why one would prefer the EX for wedding vids and docus where available light sources were more limited, particularly interiors with available light.

Well if I were a bride, and I guess I have been there, I would be upset with this:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/25.mov

About 2 seconds into the clip there is a flash that virtually divides the happy couple in half, horizontally. Think of all the times during a wedding the guests snap pictures of the happy couple, going up the aisle, down the aisle the first dance, the toast, all of those shots will be filled with this silliness. I don't think it is a good wedding camera either.


Best,

Jan

[Stevet]

There's no confirmation of the image going soft on the EX1 during movement.
EVen the EX1vsHVX_720pMotionBig.mov example comparing both cameras the background blur does not look any different.

Also, most important, as the shutter speed or frame rate is increased, image blur is decreased (as it should with any camera).
If the camera head is having a hard time catching up, it certainly won't get better at fast frame and shutter rates. I cranked up
the shutter last night under bright lights and movement was very sharp.

I believe it's all perception. The EX1 renders more detail than the HVX200, therefore, motion blur is more obvious. I noticed this years ago when getting into HD.

[DCP]

Well if I were a bride, and I guess I have been there, I would be upset with this:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/25.mov

About 2 seconds into the clip there is a flash that virtually divides the happy couple in half, horizontally. Think of all the times during a wedding the guests snap pictures of the happy couple, going up the aisle, down the aisle the first dance, the toast, all of those shots will be filled with this silliness. I don't think it is a good wedding camera either.


Best,

Jan

I've done a ton of weddings (Sony Z1U's) and I would be lost if I had those results. There would be so much post production to do a slow motion recap and fix those clips; even more difficult when camera is in motion. I liked the specs on the EX1 and I followed it ever since April 15th, (I purchased a HVX instead) now I'm glad that I waited. This camera may be good for docs, features, interviews, but for weddings? I've encounterd more than 20 flashes in a 10 sec clip and I couldn't imagine trying to fix this, and I really couldn't imagine what this would look like at 20% or 50% speed.

* A NOTE: I was going under the assumption that the clip was from the EX1 but I'm not sure if it was (I was assuming since we were all talking about the EX1).

[philip bloom]

Just came across this thread, how could I have missed it! Didn't realise my name was being thrown around so much just because I like my EX1 so much!

Anyway, for the guy who put one of the things I shot on dvd and played it back and looked like video I don't know what you did, maybe because it is 25p and you turned it into NTSC (?), but when I put it through my xbox 360 at 1080p it looks better than most stuff I see on my SKY HD. I was shocked at how beautiful it looked on my 46" screen. I felt like I was there. It was absolutely PIN sharp (when I got it in focus!) and looked nothing like video!

Have you seen this and played this on the big screen? This is about as unvideo as I have done!

http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/My_Autumns_Done_Come%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

Tomorrow I am going out to make something truly special I hope, if my virus that has knocked me out lets me.

I am not bought up by Sony or by anyone. Everything I own I bought and am extremely happy with. I sold my HVX to buy my EX1 and am truly not regretting it for all the reasons I have outlined many times before. The only reason I bang on about how great the EX1 is for a very simple reason. It's the best camera I have ever bought for the money. This is just MY opinion and this is from a DOP who stopped doing maths when he left school! Someone who just looks at images and sees what he prefers. Yes I am being paid by Sony for three days work at the end of the month to talk about my first hand experiences with the EX1 at the broadcast forum, but that's all. I would do the same for any company whose product I found superb and who offered me cash for it. I haven't quite gone down the route of celebrities doing adverts for products because they are given big bucks...then again if anyone WANTS to offer me big bucks...

I am 99% certain to be using the ex1 and quite a lot of the Letus Extreme to be shooting a feature length doco for theatrical release once transfered to 35mm, it's the only camera I want to use given the logistics of where I will be, the subject matter, the ease of workflow, the picture quality and the portability. For me it's a winner in every respect. Do I miss my HVX, not really. There was much that bothered me that I never got used to. Things the EX1 solved instantly.

if people prefer the HVX then that's cool! It's horses for courses. Some people prefer Ferraris over Porsches. Who are we to argue? I shot my short "Homeless Portraits" http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/35mm_Shorts.html#0 on the HVX and Brevis and it is still in pride of place on my showreel!

If Panny bring out a new HVX and it knocks the socks off of the EX1 I will buy that instead. When it comes to new cameras I am a tart, a bat of an eyelash, a glimpse of new shapely body, and I am all hers! :-)

[RE1000]

Well if I were a bride, and I guess I have been there, I would be upset with this:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/25.mov

About 2 seconds into the clip there is a flash that virtually divides the happy couple in half, horizontally. Think of all the times during a wedding the guests snap pictures of the happy couple, going up the aisle, down the aisle the first dance, the toast, all of those shots will be filled with this silliness. I don't think it is a good wedding camera either.


Best,

Jan
What camera was that shot with?

[Shadow]

Hey Philip, nice little movie, I like the mood of the song with your images. For the comparaison between both camera, I will let people debate between them but in your film the Canon look very nice with the 35mm adapter.

[philip bloom]

Hi shadow, do you mean the ex1 or the canon? if you mean the canon are you referring to this?

http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/HV20__Letus_Mini_test.html

This what shot on the dirt cheap HV20. One little camera that for me to operate is like knitting with boxing gloves, but when I got my head around it I was amazed at the images I could squeeze out of it! Canon's are the one brand I have barely used. I would love to road test an A1 one day.

[Shadow]

Hi shadow, do you mean the ex1 or the canon? if you mean the canon are you referring to this?

http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/HV20__Letus_Mini_test.html

This what shot on the dirt cheap HV20. One little camera that for me to operate is like knitting with boxing gloves, but when I got my head around it I was amazed at the images I could squeeze out of it! Canon's are the one brand I have barely used. I would love to road test an A1 one day.

Hi Philip, I mean the Sony ex1 that I barely know the existence until this thread and the movie "My Autumn's Done Come".

[philip bloom]

Cheers Shadow

What people so often forget about it is a good shooter will be able to get good images out of whatever camera he or she uses. This HV20 cost me £500 and with the Letus I have got better pictures out of that I have got with a £30,000 digi beta. Who'd have thought it!?

[Shadow]

Cheers Shadow

What people so often forget about it is a good shooter will be able to get good images out of whatever camera he or she uses. This HV20 cost me £500 and with the Letus I have got better pictures out of that I have got with a £30,000 digi beta. Who'd of thought it!

Philip, tu m’enlève les mots de la bouche (you take my words from the mouth) Is it a good translation.

[semila58]

What people so often forget about it is a good shooter will be able to get good images out of whatever camera he or she uses.

Exactly why I'm still perfectly content with my VX2100 while I sort out the whole HVX/EX1 debate. Not that I'm any good, just content.

:bath:

[Barry_Green]

What camera was that shot with?
EX1. I think that's the clip that Matt Jepsen linked to on FresHDV.com.

[Kholi]

Just came across this thread, how could I have missed it! Didn't realise my name was being thrown around so much just because I like my EX1 so much!

Anyway, for the guy who put one of the things I shot on dvd and played it back and looked like video I don't know what you did, maybe because it is 25p and you turned it into NTSC (?), but when I put it through my xbox 360 at 1080p it looks better than most stuff I see on my SKY HD. I was shocked at how beautiful it looked on my 46" screen. I felt like I was there. It was absolutely PIN sharp (when I got it in focus!) and looked nothing like video!

Have you seen this and played this on the big screen? This is about as unvideo as I have done!

http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/My_Autumns_Done_Come%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

Tomorrow I am going out to make something truly special I hope, if my virus that has knocked me out lets me.

I am not bought up by Sony or by anyone. Everything I own I bought and am extremely happy with. I sold my HVX to buy my EX1 and am truly not regretting it for all the reasons I have outlined many times before. The only reason I bang on about how great the EX1 is for a very simple reason. It's the best camera I have ever bought for the money. This is just MY opinion and this is from a DOP who stopped doing maths when he left school! Someone who just looks at images and sees what he prefers. Yes I am being paid by Sony for three days work at the end of the month to talk about my first hand experiences with the EX1 at the broadcast forum, but that's all. I would do the same for any company whose product I found superb and who offered me cash for it. I haven't quite gone down the route of celebrities doing adverts for products because they are given big bucks...then again if anyone WANTS to offer me big bucks...

I am 99% certain to be using the ex1 and quite a lot of the Letus Extreme to be shooting a feature length doco for theatrical release once transfered to 35mm, it's the only camera I want to use given the logistics of where I will be, the subject matter, the ease of workflow, the picture quality and the portability. For me it's a winner in every respect. Do I miss my HVX, not really. There was much that bothered me that I never got used to. Things the EX1 solved instantly.

if people prefer the HVX then that's cool! It's horses for courses. Some people prefer Ferraris over Porsches. Who are we to argue? I shot my short "Homeless Portraits" http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/35mm_Shorts.html#0 on the HVX and Brevis and it is still in pride of place on my showreel!

If Panny bring out a new HVX and it knocks the socks off of the EX1 I will buy that instead. When it comes to new cameras I am a tart, a bat of an eyelash, a glimpse of new shapely body, and I am all hers! :-)

Actually, I think most of the comments about you said you make the EX-1 Look like a Winner. =P Which is true.

[cici]

The german online magazine "Film-TV-Video" which aims for professionals has compared the HVX to the EX1 and they come to the following interesting results:

- HVX has less noise at daylight in dark areas of the picture
- HVX has sharper pictures for fast moving objects (they filmed driving cars)
- HVX has sometimes crisper details at daylight
- HVX stands more stable on a flat surface
- EX1 is also unbalanced towards the side, not only towards the head


So this and more points make the HVX the winner for that test. The EX1 has also its strong points that we know... nothing new there:

- better for lowlight than HVX
- a little bit less smear than HVX (but sort of star...)
- stronger in several handling points
- more settings
- overall better LCD (I prefer the black bars for data display...)

etc. etc.

It's a long text, so please try some online traduction if you want the test in english...

Registration needed with working e-mail adress...

Click here - Test appears after logging in... (http://www.film-tv-video.de/home.html)

[Jan_Crittenden]

* A NOTE: I was going under the assumption that the clip was from the EX1 but I'm not sure if it was (I was assuming since we were all talking about the EX1).

Yes it is from an EX1.

Best,

Jan

[ESTEBEVERDE]

The german online magazine "Film-TV-Video" which aims for professionals has compared the HVX to the EX1 and they come to the following interesting results:

- HVX has less noise at daylight in dark areas of the picture
- HVX has sharper pictures for fast moving objects (they filmed driving cars)
- HVX has sometimes crisper details at daylight
- HVX stands more stable on a flat surface
- EX1 is also unbalanced towards the side, not only towards the head


So this and more points make the HVX the winner for that test. The EX1 has also its strong points that we know... nothing new there:

- better for lowlight than HVX
- a little bit less smear than HVX (but sort of star...)
- stronger in several handling points
- more settings
- overall better LCD (I prefer the black bars for data display...)

etc. etc.

It's a long text, so please try some online traduction if you want the test in english...

Registration needed with working e-mail adress...

Click here - Test appears after logging in... (http://www.film-tv-video.de/home.html)


That and you need to Sprechen Deutsch.

[Concept89]

Cheers Shadow

What people so often forget about it is a good shooter will be able to get good images out of whatever camera he or she uses. This HV20 cost me £500 and with the Letus I have got better pictures out of that I have got with a £30,000 digi beta. Who'd have thought it!?

I'll personally agree with you on that. My younger brother was thinking about spending a few thousand dollars to get a nice camera like an VX2100 or a GL2. I told him about the HV20 and he doesn't regret it one bit! I told him as long as he has the eye for it, he can make Hi8 look great!

[Noel Evans]

I've seen horrible CA out of a HD-750. It happens to the best of them.


- Mikko

HPX 500 certainly isnt the best of them, but being able to buy 2/3 inch at this price with CAC technology thats beating some of the bigger horses blah blah blah... this is the wrong thread for that.

[lambchops99]

14sec to playback mode.....wow...That's insane...and 12 sec back to camera mode!

What were Sony thinking? How could they possibly make something take this long!? When the hvx takes 2sec max. When I was camera assist on shoots with hvx I kept insisting that we could playback the footage! the DOP and director loved it...I'd be playing back before they were ready! haha.

A non-profit community video place I work for just ordered the EX1 and Z7P.... It was an EX1 or HVX...now I'm thinking I should have advised them the HVX....Hmm... :S

Could it be fixed with a firmware update? (haha...someone has to say this to every problem!)

Cheers,
Tom



P.S: Noel....thats a hot name you've got for your production company....have you seen Red's 'Scarlet Pocket Digital cinema' camera? haha http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31

[Stevet]

I doubt it can be made to switch any quicker.

[TheMusician]

People! There is a REC REVIEW button on the camera that allows you to instaneously review the last clip that you have recorded. In the menus, you can adjust the playback time of REC REVIEW to play the last 3 seconds, 10 seconds, or the entire clip. Of course, if you want to be able to view any of your clips shot during the day, then yes, you will have to wait 12-14 seconds while switching camera modes. But to review the last clip that you record, you do not have to switch over to play mode, you can instantaneously review the clip and the camera will jump back to standby.

[RE1000]

People! There is a REC REVIEW button on the camera that allows you to instaneously review the last clip that you have recorded. In the menus, you can adjust the playback time of REC REVIEW to play the last 3 seconds, 10 seconds, or the entire clip. Of course, if you want to be able to view any of your clips shot during the day, then yes, you will have to wait 12-14 seconds while switching camera modes. But to review the last clip that you record, you do not have to switch over to play mode, you can instantaneously review the clip and the camera will jump back to standby.

That's good that you can edit the length of the REC review, but but not usefull at all if you wanna see a clip before that last clip. Or if you need to see and compare a few clips quickly. How did they get it to take so long? My VX1000 which started production in 1996 takes way less time to get into playback mode! And that camera is slow and old!

[Noel Evans]

In the menus, you can adjust the playback time of REC REVIEW to play the last 3 seconds, 10 seconds, or the entire clip.

The menus are quite deep from what I recall so it doesnt surprise me there is more than one option here.

[Stevet]

Having quick access to all clips would be great, but I must admit, if I was only allowed to play back one, it would be the confirmation of the shot I just made.

[gunleik]

If that's of any comfort... Red currently has 1 minute bootup time....

Gunleik

[Noel Evans]

If that's of any comfort... Red currently has 1 minute bootup time....

Gunleik

Yes, but IMO red is hardly usable for ENG, wheres the EX1 is likely to get a good workout in this area.

[Kaku Ito]

Noel,

How is the small RED going to be like?

[RE1000]

http://www.freshdv.com/mjeppsen/audio/freshdv_podcast_ex1_handson_discussion.mp3
New Audio from Matt and Kendall at freshdv.com and there thoughts on the cam.

[philip bloom]

I took my EX1 to the south bank in London yesterday and made a little short which you can see here: http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/South_Bank%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

I remember taking my HVX down there a year or so ago, I still have the footage and it looks nowhere near as good as this.

Any people who question how filmic the EX1 looks, I think this latest little thing I have done looks pretty damn filmic to me! Of course the Letus Extreme helps!!

[lawriejaffa]

Nice Promo hehe, it is nice, however gorgeous though your footage is, and theres no doubting your skill in bringing the best out of it (sony's hired u to teach stuff on it yep?) I still find fault with the motion of movement on the cam, (an element not apparent with your clips that have the cam mostly on the sticks.)

The letus is great and that makes a massive difference to the filmic quality of the footage! It still lacks the mojo for me personally, perhaps the sharpness even in the areas in focus, its hard to describe...

Nevertheless, nice, theres no doubt the greatest strength of the EX for most will be the sharp resolution, its the other compromises, some shown in the clip, others not that keep me sceptical. ;)

[puredrifting]

I took my EX1 to the south bank in London yesterday and made a little short which you can see here: http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/South_Bank%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

I remember taking my HVX down there a year or so ago, I still have the footage and it looks nowhere near as good as this.

Any people who question how filmic the EX1 looks, I think this latest little thing I have done looks pretty damn filmic to me! Of course the Letus Extreme helps!!

Philip:

Have you shot interviews in quiet rooms with the EX-1 yet? I would be very curious to hear the sound quality the camera produces. I shot with the Z1 for two years and it had pretty low sound quality, the HVX/DVX have much better sound quality.

Let us know.

Best,

Dan

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Dan~

Are you talking about the on board mic or just the preamps?

~Estebe

[Ted Spencer]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

[Ducatimark]

Phillip -

How do you get yourself, tripod, and camera setup into the underground without attracting undue attention and having people do such a great job of not seeing you? Is it just ba*** and you say to yourself I don't care if anyone complains? Your work is always an inspiration and it amazes me how you can make everyday life look like a Hollywood feature. Is it just a matter of zooming from a distance?

Thanks for all the great material you post!

Mark

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I took my EX1 to the south bank in London yesterday and made a little short which you can see here: http://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/South_Bank%3A_Letus_and_EX1.html

I remember taking my HVX down there a year or so ago, I still have the footage and it looks nowhere near as good as this.

Any people who question how filmic the EX1 looks, I think this latest little thing I have done looks pretty damn filmic to me! Of course the Letus Extreme helps!!


What lenses did you use Philip?

It looks as if you might have use a tilt lens?


EDIT:

I assumed the page Philip posted his footage on was part of his blog.

But, after a bit of hunting I found this on a separate "Blog Page":



"The lenses I used were my Sigma f1.8 20mm, 35mm Arrax f2.8 tilt shit, 50mm Zeiss T2 macro, 85mm Hartblei tilt shift and my 105mm Nikon f2 DC."

[Kholi]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

The extreme loss of edge sharpness is because he used TILT lenses on the footage. The dark corners and sides are an issue with the actual EX-1 lens. However, there's a way to compensate for the EX-1's lens with the Letus EX and it's being worked out.

[taormina]

Hey Philip, great footage!

A question: Did you apply color correction to this footage?

Nice stuff!

[philip bloom]

Very nice looking stuff! Coupla comments though, if I may:

In many of the shallow DOF shots there apears to be some extreme loss of edge sharpness on things apparently in the same focal plane as the in-focus center. I've got a Letus EX on order so this concerns me. Thoughts?

Almost all the shots are locked down. Only the first has some very slow panning. How are you finding the EX1 to be with camera movement re: some of the issues discussed in this thread?

Thanks for sharing the footage!

Yes it was using the two shift tilt lenses, quite a dramatic effect. It's obvious which ones, the ones where the focal perspective makes no sense!


Phillip -

How do you get yourself, tripod, and camera setup into the underground without attracting undue attention and having people do such a great job of not seeing you? Is it just ba*** and you say to yourself I don't care if anyone complains? Your work is always an inspiration and it amazes me how you can make everyday life look like a Hollywood feature. Is it just a matter of zooming from a distance?

Thanks for all the great material you post!

Mark

I got permission for Waterloo thanks to a friend and my connections, I had to make a deal to give some of the Waterloo footage in exchange. Even with my badge I got stopped at Waterloo about ten times!


Hey Philip, great footage!

A question: Did you apply color correction to this footage?

Nice stuff!

Yes all graded in Magic bullet Looks, using the mishandled negative preset in the film stock section, with some added vignettes and some grad filters/ grad exposure to compensate.

[taormina]

Amazing, Philip.

[Kholi]

Hey Bloom, I have ONE request (DVXuser to DVXuser) for your next video post: can you give us some footage minus post vignettes? I really want to see the LetusEX on the EX-1 in action minus vignettes?

Your EX-1 footage always makes me think twice about sellin' now and gettin' a new cam. Must wait for NAB.

[philip bloom]

75 percent is vignette free! anyway we should get back on topic. There is a thread talking about this in the 35mm forum!

[puredrifting]

Dan~

Are you talking about the on board mic or just the preamps?

~Estebe

The preamps. All built in-mics sound lousy, I am more interested in what happens when you plug a great mic into a great mixer, then output the sound to the EX-1. Sony has an almost unblemished record of horrendously bad audio in their under $10,000.00 camcorders and I am curious is the EX-1 breaks the curse.

Dan

[ESTEBEVERDE]

The preamps. All built in-mics sound lousy, I am more interested in what happens when you plug a great mic into a great mixer, then output the sound to the EX-1. Sony has an almost unblemished record of horrendously bad audio in their under $10,000.00 camcorders and I am curious is the EX-1 breaks the curse.

Dan

I kid you not.

Once I called Sony to get info about a particular line of their sound equipment and their very own rep... no joke said... well... I personally wouldn't get it as Sony doesn't really do sound... we do image.

No Joke.


I would be interested to hear the sound as well.

In fact... come to think of it... I don't know of any post with sound that has been captured in cam?!?!?!? :undecided


Oh yeah... I take that back... Philip's Religion series!

I came back to post that and Philip was kind enough to have already reminded me.

I asked him about it as I found the sound for the Scottish Protestant very well done and pleasing to the ear.


.

[philip bloom]

all my religion series was sound captured in camera. just interviews though

[robweiner]

I’ve had an HVX for two years, and recently spent a couple of days checking out an EX1. I have some thoughts about Barry’s post comparing the two. Barry’s remarks are in quotes.





“Sensitivity -- yep, the EX1 is more sensitive. How much? Depends on your tolerance for gain on the Sony, but overall, not a tremendous amount. It's about 1/2 stop more sensitive.”

"Now, the thing is, the Sony is quite a bit cleaner in noise, at least at low gain levels. You could go to 6dB of gain and the noise is about the same as the HVX, maybe a tad cleaner. Maybe you could go to 9dB of gain, although that might be pushing it. At 6dB of gain, the "effective" sensitivity improvement over the HVX is 1.5 stops. That's getting somewhere, that's noticeable. “

For my money, this is more than noticeable, this is HUGE. Many of you are also fond of 35mm adaptors. I can put my Letus on the Sony in 6db gain and STILL be near a full stop faster than a naked HVX. If you’ve seen the Picadilly or Times Square footage, you see what an amazing low light picture this makes.





“There were many things about the EX1 that were positives. The LCD is very sharp and the colored peaking is wonderful. The sharpness is great.”

I’m a big fan of being able to focus my camera. I HATED the LCD on the HVX from the first five minutes after taking it out of the box. What was Panny thinking? So I’ve tried to work off a 17” monitor or at least the Marshall since the beginning. The freedom gained by being able to work off an LCD when appropriate is wonderful.





“Secondly, it's impossible to hand-hold one-handed. You just can't do it. The fatboy HVX feels as light as an HV20, compared to the EX1. The ergonomics are astoundingly bad for handheld. I can't describe it to do it justice, you just have to experience it for yourself. You can manage okay with two hands (and I use the HVX with two hands), but just get used to the idea that you'll have to use two hands with the EX1.”

I always thought the HVX was the worst handheld camera I ever had, but the EX1 is the new reigning champ. But, please--the HVX like an HV20 in comparison? Since I have already migrated to using a monopod or two hands already, it doesn’t represent a change in work style.






“Okay, now onto my main gripe: SxS SuXS! It was infuriating to use; for anyone used to P2 I don't know how you could stand this.” “ One thing I do is I show how quickly you can go check your footage -- just pop into playback mode and play your clips. Takes about a second, maybe two. On the EX1 the same process takes 14 SECONDS. “

I would estimate that 90% of checking takes on the set consists of looking at the LAST TAKE. This takes about one to two seconds on the EX1, IF you use the Rec Review button.





“Okay, another thing I point out in training seminars is that even in the middle of playing back HVX footage, if something started happening that you need to record, you can just punch the record button and the camera will automatically jump into camera mode and start recording. Takes maybe 2 seconds.”

Again, if you are in Rec Review of the LAST TAKE, it takes one to two seconds on the EX!.




“Okay, what else... oh, the lens. Yes it has true manual zoom. Felt exactly like the HVX's. Yes it has manual focus. Other than hard stops it didn't do anything the HVX doesn't. Feels a little different, but gives the exact same result (but with less rotation). Iris ring was nice though, I do like that, everyone should have a proper iris ring. “


A major understatement on what is a tremendous improvement from an operator’s perspective.




“
The menu system is an interesting mix of give 'n' take. Very extensive menus with wonderful controls, seemed about comparable to the Canon XHA1/XLH1 in that respect. But navigating the menus is annoying because the little spinny wheel sometimes goes up when you tell it to go down,”

After a few minutes with the EX1, I realized that the “spinny wheel” is a far inferior navigation method to the joystick located near the LCD screen. Try it. You’ll never use the wheel again.






“About that "clutter": with the EX1 they have a "direct" menu where instead of going into the menus through the "menu" button, you use a miniature joystick to navigate around the on-screen displays -- when you click 'em it becomes a menu. I thought that was kind of clever, but some functions that should be on switches, aren't (like shutter speed? “

Shutter speed is indeed accessible through the “direct” menu. I just did it a minute ago to be sure. The menu structure is different than the HVX, and may take some getting used to, but I think it is actually more powerful and flexible.




“I dunno, folks, I mean, I can see some definite advantages (sharpness & noise mainly) but the tapeless SxS just comes off looking half-assed compared to the P2 workflow (forgive the crass term). I just don't know what clients I would recommend this product to. Interviews? Yes, definitely. ENG? No way. Weddings? Absolutely not.”

Barry, you’re completely ignoring 1.5-2 stops low light performance because you MIGHT get a rolling shutter artifact? We lived with vertical smear on chip cameras for ENG for years. You would rather watch a 30 minute wedding ceremony that you almost can’t see on the HVX because it’s so dark, that would look gorgeous on the EX1? Have you seen the footage inside Notre Dame? Amazing.




“I'm hoping to get some more time with it later in the month where I can put it through some more tests.”

Barry, I really do hope you do get the time with the camera, because I suspect some of your observations were hampered by insufficient evaluation time.




“Right now I'd say it's six of one, half dozen of the other. I think the HVX is a lot more workable and usable, and it's a lot less expensive. “


Regarding the usablility issue--does anyone love the fact that when we are facing the “proper” orientation to the HVX joystick, the LCD is usually oriented the wrong way and must be flipped and pasted to the side of the camera? I hate that.

How about when we change frame rates, and clips won’t play unless we change the frame rate back in the camera first? The Sony has a momentary jiggle of about 1 second and plays right through all frame rates. It’s also got a full VCR style touch pad as well as a joystick.


People were paying a premium of almost $3,000 for the version of the Canons that had HD-SDI out over the non-HD-SDI version. It’s right there in the EX1. It’s a single BNC connector and it’s clean as hell. If you want to record to an external VCR, it’s 10 bit HD-SDI out. Anyone out there love that Component connector on their HVX? I don’t.

The Picture Profile menus are incredibly extensive, and EACH parameter has 200 increments of adjustability.

The lens is 14x1 versus 12x1 on the HVX. And the chips are 1/2” versus 1/3” on the HVX. Throwing backgrounds out of focus should be SIGNIFICANTLY easier on the EX1.

And finally, cost. As I write this, B&H has the HVX for $5200 with one 16gig card included and additonal cards are $900 per 16gig.

The EX1 is $6450 with 2 8gig cards included and additional cards are $900 per 16gig.

So, the HVX is $6100 with 32 gigs versus $7350 for the Sony. So the HVX is $1250 cheaper with an equal amount of storage. I’m not sure I would call that “a lot less expensive.”

Now, I previously owned 2 8gig cards and then 2 16gig cards. I did almost all of my work at 24PN or 30PN because I usually needed the longer runtimes for the type of production days I do. I got quite fast at downloading cards in the field, but I wasn’t wanting to download twice as often and I wasn’t convinced I needed 1080, so I didn’t use it much.

But Barry has always been a fan of 1080 and usually recommended it if people could manage it. With the 32 gig packages quoted above, you could shoot 32 minutes with the HVX before needing to download, or 100 minutes with the EX1. It’s THREE TIMES the runtime folks!! So, even if Barry’s right about the ingest times being equal for P2 and SxS, you only need to download ONE THIRD as often. With 100 minutes of runtime, most days I could do the download while we’re wrapping and be done before the gear is put away.

Or, you could buy 4 more 16gig P2 cards for $3600, but then you are at $9700 versus $7350 for the Sony. Talk about a lot less expensive.

Anyway, if you’ve read this far, thanks for listening. I hope it was informative or useful in some way.

Barry, the website you’ve created here is an incredibly valuable thing. I’ve learned a ton here, and you’ve helped educate a lot of folks about the tools that are out there. Give the camera a second look, and let us know what you think.

Thanks.

Rob

[Kholi]

Thanks for the post, Rob. What kind of work do you do?

[puredrifting]

A good friend of mine recently had a chance to spend two days with the EX-1. This friend is not really a professional shooter but definitely is up to speed with the HVX as owns one and has shot with it.

His remarks were that the EX-1 blows away the HVX in sharpness when the shot is still. He also remarked the same thing Barry did about the ergonomics or lack of. He remarked that, "the picture loses all of it's detail when the camera moves. Why does it do that?"

I know for a fact that my friend does not read camera forums and he was just more curious about what all of the buzz about the EX-1 was. He borrowed it for two days, shot a ton of footage. His end appraisal was that although it has some nice features, he felt the long GOP 4:2:0 format was very substandard to DVCProHD and that he could not live with the lack of detail/softness on moving shots. He is keeping his HVX (which he hardly ever shoots with anyway). He is more of an editor.

Thought it was interesting that several of his observations were almost word for word the same as Barry's comments.

I am going to have to get my hands on an EX-1 to run some audio tests. Other than Philip shot his interviews with the EX-1, I have heard nothing about if the EX-1 breaks the Sony "under $10k horrible sound" curse that has plagued all of the lower end Sonys for close to a decade now.

Best,

Dan

[thefilmaddict]

I switched from the HVX200 to the EX1. I was going to write a review, but Rob took the words right out of my head!

Regardless, here is a summary of my thoughts:

1. The lens is great. It's nice having a proper focus, iris and zoom ring.

2. The EX1 LCD screen is amazing. I had to carry the Marshall with me while using the HVX200. Now I leave it at home. It truly frees the operator.

3. The extra resolution is very nice. Images pop on my 50 inch HD TV (even wide shots). The HVX200 look was good, but soft compared to the EX1. I always brought my detail level down on the HVX200 because I hated the artificial noise it caused in the image. That made the Panasonic image a little softer. I also turn the detail down on the EX1 (which softens the image as well), but there is plenty of sharpness left in the picture. That's just my preference. I am sure most of you are fine with the detail level at default on both cameras.

4. The compression/longer record time is a plus with the EX1. It really looks good at 35 Mbps (better than I thought possible). I have not been able to break the codec, but I also have a very conservative shooting style. I look forward to shooting some action shots in the future when it gets warmer here. I will report my findings, but XDCAM seems to hold just fine.

5. Editing XDCAM is pretty easy in Final Cut Pro. I've edited HDV in the past and it sucked big time. XDCAM works fine. Do I miss DVCPRO HD, not really, but I still use it all the time at work. I am not putting it down. I just want you to know that XDCAM works well, too.

6. The SDI out is huge on the EX1. At work I use the AVID Nitris. It was (as far as I know) impossible to import HVX footage into the system (no firewire on that high end system). Now I just hook the EX1 HD SDI out to the Avid and capture live. This is a big help. HD SDI will also be a big help if I want to bypass the SXS card and capture higher quality footage live to an external drive in the future. I don't need that now, but it is nice to have the option.

7. As far as the out of box look (scene files), the HVX has better cine gamma presets IMHO, but the EX can be modified to look just as good (lots of changeable settings). Here's a picture profile that I like:

MATRIX - CINEMA - LEVEL +40
GAMMA - LEVEL: -15 - CINE 3
BLACK: -5
LOW KEY SAT: +10

It's a high color, more contrasty look. The gamma adds a lot of mojo to the image.

8. As far as resolution dropping on pans, I don't see it. I will continue to test for that. I've always found (on all 24p cameras) that you have to be conservative with your camera movement at default 24p shutter settings. That's just the nature of the beast.

9. If you read my HVX200 posts from early last year, I was always critical of how the HVX200 did in low light and macro blocking (I think thats what it's called when dark gradients get blocky). I don't see that with the EX1 (not yet anyway). I've shot a bunch of test footage using candles. It looks amazingly clean. I guess that's the result of the 1/2" chips. That's important to me.

10. I like the -9Db gain. All cameras should have this option. It helps open up the iris out doors and further limiting depth of field (something I am always trying to do).

11. I am not a fan of the problems that rolling shutters can cause, but it is not a problem for me with this camera. I don't shoot videos with lots of camera flashes. If I did, I could easily correct them in post.

12. I am also not a fan of some of the buttons and plastic covers on the camera. They seem a little cheap to me (The SDI cover and the DC IN for example).

13. I do like the joystick. I find it makes navigating through menus fast. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but I do have small fingers and you know what that means...huh?

14. The camera stinks for handheld. Like the HVX, it's not very balanced. The swivel zoom handle makes 2 hand waist level shooting easier. I guess that's a minor improvement.

15. As far as camera work flow, it works a lot like the HVX200. I did not read the Sony manual yet, but using my knowledge of the how the HVX200 works, switching to the Sony is not difficult. Both cameras really make going back to a tape based camera a sickening thought!

16. The Record Review button is super fast for checking your last recorded shot. I use it a lot. Switching the camera between CAMERA and MEDIA mode is a little slower on the Sony, but it's really no big deal (for me). How impatient can you be? We are just talking a matter of seconds.

17. As far as sound, I have only used the on camera microphone. It sounded fine. I will do more testing. Blooms stuff sounded good.

18. The slow shutter effect is neat. It looks great on time lapse.

19. The variable frame rates, like the HVX, are really cool.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

------------

I wish people would quit fighting about which camera is better (especially those who have not tested each camera in person). They are both great cameras, I just prefer the Sony (right now). The good news is that competing companies keep raising the bar. We (the consumers) win. Affordable HD cameras are getting better and better in a short period of time (much faster than the evolution of SD cameras).

I can't wait for the RED guys to release their camera. I am also hoping and betting that Panasonic's next camera will raise the bar even higher. Panasonic makes great gear.

Overall, It's an exciting time to be an indie filmmaker. Our equipment keeps getting better and better. It still requires great talent, hard work and a little luck, but it's nice to know our paint brushes can compete with the big boys.

Enough ranting. I hope this helps.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Guys... can we see some shots that start static for a few seconds and then pan and go back to static for a few seconds?

I keep hearing about all of this blurriness but haven't seen any clips with it?

[DCSensui]

Filmaddict makes some very valid points. And having tried the camera myself for a day, and doing some rough comparisons with my own HVX, I have to agree with many of his points.

I produce a fishing show. The coverage is somewhat like that of a reality or news show. Lots of handheld work. Not much chance to set up lights. And coverage often demands a camera to be able to get a decent quality shot under adverse conditions. From daybreak to twilight. You just never know when the fish are gonna bite.

I also do production work where a lighting director and a grip will rig 2K's and other instruments from a truckload of gear. So the camera needs to be able to record shots that have been set up with a great deal of care.

The image is cleaner than the HVX and has more detail. From what little I tested regarding motion artifacts the long GOP codec seemed to hold up well with lots of changing detail. I expected the codec to fail and this was a pleasant surprise.

The ability to record three times as much per gigabyte is very important. Especially if I sometimes end up shooting as much as 160 minutes of material in a day. If the camera comes with two 8-gig cards, then I just need to pick up two more 16-gig cards to give me enough capacity to cover almost all of what I might do in a day.

Compare that to an HVX: I'd have to get five 32-gig cards to do the same. And archiving would also take three times as much space.

I didn't notice any unacceptable loss of sharpness during any panning but Barry did. And if he said it's there then there's something there. Just need to find out what it is and if it's severe enough to be a major concern. Unfortunately I read about it after I returned the camera and couldn't test it for myself.

As for the rolling shutter problem with vertical lines, I was able to get an unacceptable amount of vertical line distortion but it came with an unacceptable rate of panning or shaking. In other words, I would have rejected the shot even if there weren't any rolling shutter distortion.

The additional sensitivity over the HVX is a welcome characteristic. As is the ability to set an 18 dB gain. While it's certainly noisy when boosted to that level, it beats getting nothing at all under those circumstances.

The zoom is capable of moving both slower and faster than the HVX. Doing a slow, dramatic push-in or pull-out is no longer a problem. And zooming-in to focus is a lot quicker than the HVX.

With a "real" aperature ring, making slight adjustments in exposure is easier. And since it seems to be controlling a real iris, there isn't that annoying stepping of exposure that other cameras have, including the HVX, the PD-170 and XL1s.

By itself, it's a lousy handheld camera. It's impossible for any camera this size to be held comfortably because the handle is too far off-axis. The handle would have to be placed directly under the center of gravity and you can imagine what that would end up looking like. I'm planning to use it with a shoulder mount. I already do the same with the HVX. Both cameras are much less stable without one.

My biggest misgiving is the lack of a pre-record cache. Rumor has it that it will be added in a future firmware upgrade. But I'll take it for what it is and simply assume that will never happen. It's not a deal killer since I worked without one all these years, until I got the HVX. But it would be a welcome addition if it does get incorporated into the EX1.

After all that, did I buy one? Not yet. But I'm in the process of getting one as soon as the financing is approved.

As for the HVX, I'm keeping it and will continue to work with it. We do two-camera shoots once in a while for our cooking and tackle tips segments, and it should intercut just fine as the close-up camera. It'll also be used to do any green screen work unless the EX1 is proven to handle that task as well as the HVX.

They're both fine cameras and there's nothing inherently terrible about either of them. They're head and shoulders above any SD cameras. And, considering what it costs to get better equipment, the are reasonable solutions that allow producers at my level to get some real work done in this format.

[Noel Evans]

Guys... can we see some shots that start static for a few seconds and then pan and go back to static for a few seconds?

I keep hearing about all of this blurriness but haven't seen any clips with it?

Full res

[Mark Smith]

I had my hands on an EX yesterday for a while and got acquainted.

Very nice LCD screen compared to the HVX. The good news is that it has a pivoting hand grip which is also the bad news as it places the hand grip too far from the CG of the camera, which really torques the right wrist a lot if you are not using a 2 handed shooting style.

There is something funny going on with the image when there is movement combined with lots of detail: the camera can't quite hold the detail and the movement , so it throws away the detail till things settle down a bit.

Several aspects of the camera seem "toy" like the media, and the size and amount of buttons covering the camera. P2 cards are physically pretty robust while the Sony media seems like its in a pretty flimsy package in comparison.
There are many small buttons for operational stuff and I think the chances for inadvertently bumping something are much greater. THe Audio level controls are just plain wrong and will get mis adjusted quite a bit by accident.

The rolling shutter artifacts are there, its bound to become a style.

Sony still is grasping for a way to design menus, but the one thing that is nice is it is possible to use the joy stick to change a single setting without going into the main menu.

[Steve Shovlar]

I had my hands on an EX yesterday for a while and got acquainted.


There is something funny going on with the image when there is movement combined with lots of detail: the camera can't quite hold the detail and the movement , so it throws away the detail till things settle down a bit.



A few people have said this but I just haven't seen it at all. Ever. I have my EX1 plugged into my 50 inch Pioneer plasma, and the image is stunning. Really. NO drop off of image quality when I pan around. Full stop.

Gues I am lucky in that my camera doesn't seem to exhibit this issue that others seem to see clearly.

[Luis Caffesse]

It seems like this should be easy enough to clear up.
A few frame grabs alone would do it - full res - showing a static shot, a few grabs during a pan, as well as a static stop.

If someone out there with the HVX and the EX1 could do some side by side panning we could see if this loss of detail claim has any merit.

Any takers?

[Randolph]

Barry,
I too have been looking at this camera and have been pretty excited about some of it's features. I really appreciate you pointing out some of it's less than admirable qualities. Your review has given me pause for consideration as to whether this is my next camera.
I had an HVX200 for 3 months and, personally, didn't like it. I still love my DVX100 though.
I have a Canon A1 and, while I like using it, it too has it's drawbacks.

I shoot a lot of meeting and seminar documentation and most times, I am not allowed to set additional lighting. The DVX 100 has done well in that situation.
When I wanted to go to higher resolution (HD or HDV), I tried the HVX and the A1. Neither of those cameras can match the DVX for low light. The HVX is better than the A1 but at my last big, 3 camera shoot in Las Vegas, the lighting was so bad, the DVX would not even give me a shot without +6db video gain. I had to rent a Sony VX2000 just to get the job done. I was hoping the EX1 would be at least as good as the VX2000 in low light. You say it is only 1/2 stop better than the HVX. That won't be enough. Oh well.
I'm still looking for my next camera.

As much as I liked your review, I did want to make one comment on your quote:



The defendant would already be in the cop car and driven away in 12 seconds! How are people supposed to use this for ENG? You're setting yourself up to get screwed.


While I realize you were just making a point (a valid one about the access delay),
any video professional that would be showing their buddy a previously shot clip while waiting to shoot a defendant coming out the door needs to have their head examined. It is probably residing in an unfortunate anatomical location.

[philip bloom]

While I realize you were just making a point (a valid one about the access delay),
any video professional that would be showing their buddy a previously shot clip while waiting to shoot a defendant coming out the door needs to have their head examined. It is probably residing in an unfortunate anatomical location.

i think it has been mentioned elsewhere but you just press rec review, like any eng cam and it plays last clip, if that defendant walks out you can press record at any point and it starts recording

[Barry_Green]

You say it is only 1/2 stop better than the HVX. That won't be enough. Oh well.
I'm still looking for my next camera.

It's 1/2 stop better in 1080p modes. It's 1 stop better in 1080/60i or 720p modes.

[philip bloom]

just half a stop? it seems way brighter (in 1080p which is what i shoot all the time ) than my hvx ever was

[Barry_Green]

It's exactly one half stop faster in 1080p mode. It all depends also on what gamma you're using, etc. I compared STD3 to HD NORM as they rendered gamma and color exactly the same, and the difference was precisely 1/2 stop.

[Randolph]

Well if I were a bride, and I guess I have been there, I would be upset with this:

http://homepage.mac.com/epiphany2002/25.mov

About 2 seconds into the clip there is a flash that virtually divides the happy couple in half, horizontally.
Jan

Jan, I think you are brilliant and you helped me to get a new HVX when mine had an initial failure.
However, after watching this footage, I think people are overstating the potential client dissatisfaction in the EX1 footage.
I am a professional and I watched the footage 4 times and didn't see what you were complaining about. I then reviewed it frame by frame and I said, "Oh! That's what all of the fuss is about." Yes, it is a flaw, and now I can see it real time because I know what I am looking for. I wish it wasn't there, but I had to really look to notice it in the flow of the video.
I would be more upset about the silly pink light, but I guess that was the desired effect.

Thanks again for your insightful posts.

[philip bloom]

Oh I don't know. Haven't you guys ever seen the Omen films? this flash freeze frame slicing the couple in half...damn that is scary.

[Randolph]

Oh I don't know. Haven't you guys ever seen the Omen films? this flash freeze frame slicing the couple in half...damn that is scary.

Phillip,
Thanks for your sense of humor and for having your inspiring footage on your web site.
Most of my income is from event recording where I need low light capability and I don't do weddings any more (I hate to shoot weddings!), so flashing is not a problem.
I also am in pre-production for a documentary where I would like b-roll beauty shots to cover most of the talking heads. You have demonstrated that the EX1 could be an excellent choice for this project.

[cinematical]

What I really want to see is how Panasonic responds at NAB this year.

And on a completely different subject, I'd just like to commend Barry for what he does for the forums. I've lurked for a while and only now started posting, but I've read (and benefited from) many of his reviews/shootouts in the past.

Again, HUZZAH to you, sir.



*end corny spiel*

[SteveLaClair]

I concur, that actually goes for all the dvxuser staff... I've been blown away with how much time and professionalism they put into their posts. Even with the most redundant questions they are still extremely helpful. I think it sets the tone for why this place is such a success. It's definitely inspiring and I've been trying to do the same with my forums as well.

[booth]

just half a stop? it seems way brighter (in 1080p which is what i shoot all the time ) than my hvx ever was

I think possibly it seems brighter because it also records a cleaner image. The HVX image is buzzing with noise under available light.

As for the rolling shutter and it's problems with flashes. That's easily fixed in post compared to noise removal. And I'm a HVX user and owner before anyone thinks I'm an EX1 fanboy!

[cinematical]

Wow, looks like panasonic jumped the gun to cut the EX1's thunder.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9872212-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave

[Kenn Christenson]

Wow, looks like panasonic jumped the gun to cut the EX1's thunder.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9872212-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave

Kind of doubt it - 1/3" CCDs - probably pixel shifted (not that there's anything wrong with that :grin:) and basically the same shooting specs as the HVX - just different encoding.

Where's the under/overcrank 1080P (yeah, I know the EX1 can only do undercrank) - the full raster sensors - a manual lens?

[puredrifting]

Kind of doubt it - 1/3" CCDs - probably pixel shifted (not that there's anything wrong with that :grin:) and basically the same shooting specs as the HVX - just different encoding.

Where's the under/overcrank 1080P (yeah, I know the EX1 can only do undercrank) - the full raster sensors - a manual lens?

Why would anyone consider that camera for $6,000.00 when they could get an HVX for less?

AVCHD is a nightmare anyway, tried dealing with for some footage a friend shot in China. PITA!

Dan

[SteveLaClair]

Why would anyone consider that camera for $6,000.00 when they could get an HVX for less?

AVCHD is a nightmare anyway, tried dealing with for some footage a friend shot in China. PITA!

Dan


To be honest that writers estimate at $6,000 was poor at best.... My guess is low to mid 3's.

[philip bloom]

that camera is in a way lower class than the hvx.

[fcbogo]

Hi Barry, Nice review, congratulations.
my HVX is Not for Sale, thanks

[lahoozaa]

Do all of these problems exist to this full extent still? Just wondering if the newer models off the production lines and / or a firmware update have improved anything.