Sony EX1 market plan: typical Sony

[editorforhire]

Just a note regarding the issue of Sony EX1 using 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2. A while back, I asked a Sony sales rep why the DSR500 DVCam didn't have a way to output settings to a CF or SD card to set up multiple DSR500 cameras. The DigiBeta cameras, like the DVW700ws, DVW790ws had this feature, but not the full-size DVCams. The sales rep said they wanted to keep certain features exclusive to their high-end and very expensive broadcast cameras to justify to price difference. There are other features of the Broadcast cameras that are superior to their Prosumer cameras, but that is Sony's basic philosophy. So, you won't see a 4:2:2 codec on a $7,000 but will see it on a $30,000+ (minus lens) Broadcast model. Sony wants the high-end players to feel they are getting more for spending quadruple the money.

[ecking]

No offence, but this is kinda common knowledge with sony. That said the EX1 still rocks the hell out of 4:2:0 anyways.

[William_Robinette]

I used to think this but I dont subscribe to it anymore. I mean think of how many more ex models sony will sell over a 355. If they can implement 4:2:2 on the ex I think they would have.

[Stevet]

No worries.
Cineform is about to change all of that with their portable recorders.
So 4:2:2 or GOP will no longer be an issue.

[LuckyStudio 13]

By Nab 2008 or next fall, Sony is going to have a bigger cam that spot maybe 1/2" lens or 2/3", TC in/Out shoulder cam with 4:2:2. I guess it will be the f35X replacement, but the price is going to be over $15k.

[editorforhire]

No offence, but this is kinda common knowledge with sony. That said the EX1 still rocks the hell out of 4:2:0 anyways.
Well, some people are asking why no 4:2:2 on this new EX, yet Panasonic uses the 4:2:2 color space in their products, at least their HD products. The answer is Sony does not like to dilute its market segments. This is not common knowledge, as indicated by the many people asking why Sony did not use 4:2:2 codec for the EX. I do not doubt your considerable product knowledge, but I wanted to enlighten those without your keen Sony acumen.

[editorforhire]

I used to think this but I dont subscribe to it anymore. I mean think of how many more ex models sony will sell over a 355. If they can implement 4:2:2 on the ex I think they would have.
Sony will not risk alienating the market segment that buys their $40,000 cameras by putting the same or equivalent features on $7,000 models. To get 4:2:2 output, you'll need external recorders made by third-party vendors. Sony won't make it easy for you.

[Barry_Green]

... and yet, that philosophy has resulted on them getting their hind end handed to them in the marketplace. So are they sticking with the old thinking?

Some would argue the EX1 actually exceeds the ~$25,000 F350 (F350 records 1440x1080, EX1 does 1920x1080; F350 doesn't have 720p mode at all, etc). Does this mean they've learned from their past mistakes?

I won't argue that what you describe was Sony's philosophy, obviously it was. Question is: have they learned? Panasonic knocked this idea on its butt by including DVCPRO-HD in a $5,000 camcorder. Sony seems to be doing its best to respond. So maybe that stupid isolationist protectionist philosophy is becoming a thing of the past? At least, a little?

[David Jimerson]

Like the exceptional stupidity of not developing Vegas so as to compete with its Xpri editing system? Hmmmm.

[andrew_h]

So, you won't see a 4:2:2 codec on a $7,000
Except through the hd-sdi port on the bottom of the EX1

yet Panasonic uses the 4:2:2 color space in their products
And the 200 only has SD size CCDs scaling to HD versus the EX1's native 1080P CMOS chips.

So which do you value more, the chip that catches the image, or the colour space it is saved to?

;)

[mcgeedigital]

Except through the hd-sdi port on the bottom of the EX1


And the 200 only has SD size CCDs scaling to HD versus the EX1's native 1080P CMOS chips.

So which do you value more, the chip that catches the image, or the colour space it is saved to?

;)

I value a camera that doesn't have a rolling shutter. :dankk2:

[mikkowilson]

Don't start with the sensor comparisons again. Both sensors have their own issues and benefits. And they have been discussed ad-nauseum already.

And, the HVX200's sensor array is HD.

- Mikko

[bruce edits]

Except through the hd-sdi port on the bottom of the EX1


And the 200 only has SD size CCDs scaling to HD versus the EX1's native 1080P CMOS chips.

So which do you value more, the chip that catches the image, or the colour space it is saved to?

;)
Well, considering I own a DSR500ws which is an awesome 2/3" DVCam camera with a Canon Broadcast lens, you'd think the picture would be exceptional. Well, for the most part, it is. Now, go do a chroma-key. DV's 25Mbps, 4:1:1 color space makes clean keying a problem. I've gotten clean keys, but it took way longer than the same scene shot with a Digi Beta camera, which is 50Mbps at 4:2:2. The 4:2:2 color space is simply the best if you are doing mattes, keys and compositing images. Maybe 4:2:0 will key out better than 4:1:1? I hope so for Sony's sake.

[Stevet]

Maybe 4:2:0 will key out better than 4:1:1? I hope so for Sony's sake.

4:2:0 has been around for a while. Keys are done all the time using 4:2:0. Everyone knows 4:2:2 is better for keys.
No issues with the EX1, 4:2:2 is available via SDI at your choice of codec, you're not strapped to the camera internal codec.

[editorforhire]

4:2:0 has been around for a while. Keys are done all the time using 4:2:0. Everyone knows 4:2:2 is better for keys.
No issues with the EX1, 4:2:2 is available via SDI at your choice of codec, you're not strapped to the camera internal codec.

No doubt Sony allows 4:2:2 output of the camera head via HD-SDI. However, until someone comes out with a really small, camera-mountable recording system (dual system recording), that records the HD-SDI signal, the EX becomes a very small studio camera. Reminds me of the old film days when your Nagra was tied to your film camera to get that pilot-tone sync. Not too portable. I'll be at NAB 2008, looking for that sub-$10,000 Sony handheld with 1980 x1080 recording at 50Mbps and 4:2:2 color space. I won't hold my breath, though. I will find that $35,000 2/3" XDCam HD camcorder.

Don't get me wrong, Sony makes some wonderful products and I have spent a small fortune acquiring them. But, unless things change radically, don't expect high-end features with mid to low end pricing from Sony.

[Stevet]

Well, that's all about to change:
http://www.convergent-design.com/downloads/Flash%20XDR.pdf
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

The XDR will be available soon. The Cineform is still a year out. Also, you will need the a SDI>HDMI converter (such a BM HDLINK $399) for Cineform's first portatble recorder.

This is going to really open up things, especially for cameras such as Canon H1 & Sony EX1.

[taormina]

Steve - the cineform seems interesting, but for the life of me, what does it do? Can it be used with an HVX?

Pardon the ignorance.

[Stevet]

Cineform has been considering adding component inputs to one of the portable Cineform recorders, but nothing has been confirmed yet. If that's the case, these may be a welcome capture solution for the HVX200 and other component out cameras such as the JVC HD100.

Their first version is supposed to offer HDMI to Compact Flash using their Cineform (well respected 4:2:2 10 bit) intraframe codec.

[Stevet]

IMO, when these are released, they are really going to open the doors for all who have been living with 4:2:0 GOP and want a decent 4:2:2 low compression intraframe portable capture solution. Not to mention Complact Flash 32GB cards are real cheap < $300 !

[harddrive]

Not to mention Complact Flash 32GB cards are real cheap < $300 !
Do you have a reference for that, Steve? The biggest CF I've seen on sale to date has been 16GB, though I've heard other people refer to 32GB cards.

[Stevet]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211244

Well, not sure if it is fast enough?

I imagine you would need CF with Extreme III specs. Which is what I bellieve the XDR flash recorder recommends. There should be a lot better options by the 2nd quarter of 2008.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yep!

[Christopher Barry]

Cineform has been considering adding component inputs to one of the portable Cineform recorders, but nothing has been confirmed yet. If that's the case, these may be a welcome capture solution for the HVX200 and other component out cameras such as the JVC HD100.

Their first version is supposed to offer HDMI to Compact Flash using their Cineform (well respected 4:2:2 10 bit) intraframe codec.

Steve, component out of the US HVX is at 60i, so if shooting 24p, I am not sure if you can practically extract 24p (or 30p, etc) from that analogue source. It would probably be good to record 720p60, otherwise, you are going to have embedded 2:3 pull down in the 24p footage, with no meta data identifying/flagging repeat frames (as you would in an HD-SDI output, such as the Varicam/HPX), and unless there is frame recognition software to identify repeat frames, you will not extract true 24p footage. Perhaps someone can confirm my interpretation of the matter or correct me.

[David Jimerson]

Well, that's all about to change:
http://www.convergent-design.com/downloads/Flash%20XDR.pdf
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

The XDR will be available soon. The Cineform is still a year out. Also, you will need the a SDI>HDMI converter (such a BM HDLINK $399) for Cineform's first portatble recorder.

This is going to really open up things, especially for cameras such as Canon H1 & Sony EX1.

Of course, one thing very helpful to know would be the price of this thing.

Because, let's be honest . . .

The more expensive it is, the less it makes sense to bother with it when there's already a camera which records intraframe 4:2:2 with no need for it to be tethered to anything.

[Barry_Green]

Convergent's XDR is aimed at $5,000 (last I knew); the CineForm box is aiming at a price tag of $2,000.

[StMad]

David, less sense for you maybe. The differences in sensitivity, lcd, and res make it a sensible option for me. And let's not forget 10bit.

[Barry_Green]

What about 10 bit? The XDCAM EX1 is 8-bit, and the HD-SDI output is 8-bit.

[StMad]

That's been confirmed? Please point me to your reference.

[David Jimerson]

David, less sense for you maybe. The differences in sensitivity, lcd, and res make it a sensible option for me. And let's not forget 10bit.

It makes less sense the higher the price point goes. If indeed the add-ons are going to be in $5K range or more, on top of the price of the EX1, you're moving into full-size 2/3" chip territory -- or at least close enough where a few extra bucks on top of THAT will get you into that territory.

Everyone's got their own set of needs and wants, of course.

[Barry_Green]

That's been confirmed? Please point me to your reference.

Based on Alain Chaix's discussion with a Sony engineer in France, who (reportedly) said:
"la sortie SDI (SD et HD) était bien en 10 bits (rien d'étonnant m'a t'il dit, vu que la norme SDI est sur 10 bits) mais que pour des raisons d'économie d'argent et de consommation électrique sur ce camescope, l'electronique qui gérait ce signal arrondissait ces calculs, d'où un signal réellement sur 8 bits avec 2 bits "vides"."

Alexander Ibrahim asked the same question of Sony reps at the Professional Products fair, and was told it's 8-bit data embedded in a 10-bit word.

Craig Seeman was told by a Sony rep at HD World Expo that it was 8 bits embedded in a 10-bit word.

Others have said it's straight-up 10 bit, so there's confusion on the issue. But for a Sony engineer to say it's 8-bit is telling, as is the notion that every other camcorder anywhere near this price range that uses SDI uses it at 8 bits. SDI is a 10-bit transport stream, but for reasons of economy the XH-G1, XL-H1, HD250, and EX1 all use an 8-bit word, with two zeroes to pad out the sequence. And the XLH1 and HD250 are even more expensive camcorders than the EX1.

So -- I won't know the definitive answer until I get my hands on one sometime in January, but I'd bet $100 cash money right now that the EX1's HD-SDI output is 8-bit embedded in a 10-bit word.

[StMad]

I think the Ex1 and HVX must have a greater price difference in the US. About $1k au ($850us) difference here. And moving up to 2/3 chips involves a whole lot more cost than just the cam.

[Barry_Green]

In the US the price difference is about 30%, about $1500 USD.

[StMad]

So -- I won't know the definitive answer until I get my hands on one sometime in January, but I'd bet $100 cash money right now that the EX1's HD-SDI output is 8-bit embedded in a 10-bit word.

Hehe, I think I'll keep my $100. I've got an EX1 to save up for. :)

[David Jimerson]

I think the Ex1 and HVX must have a greater price difference in the US. About $1k au ($850us) difference here. And moving up to 2/3 chips involves a whole lot more cost than just the cam.

And it affects portability, too. There's a big calculus involved. I was pointing some of it out . . .

[harddrive]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820211244

Well, not sure if it is fast enough?

I imagine you would need CF with Extreme III specs. Which is what I bellieve the XDR flash recorder recommends. There should be a lot better options by the 2nd quarter of 2008.
Interesting, but no, I wouldn't think it's of use for serious professional video. As much for reliability as anything. I've only ever heard one confirmed story of a CF card failing, and that was a cheap unbranded make - I wouldn't trust them. (And now neither does the guy it happened to!) Pro stills guys use high spec known brand and I've heard excellent reliability reports from them - one photographer I know even left a card in a shirt when it went through the washing machine, and it still worked fine!

I feel Extreme III hits a sweet price/performance spot (approx $200 for 16GB), and for the XDR, it would be fine for the 100Mbs codec (though downloads then wouldn't be much better than real time), but it would be on the limit for the 160Mbs mode, and I think you'd need something like Extreme IV.

As far as cost goes, then yes, the XDR adds something like $5,000 to the cost. But Extreme III CF cards are then a lot cheaper than SxS or P2 cards, so some of that $5,000 may be able to be clawed back in memory cost savings. And you get a device which has other uses.

[StMad]

Thinking more about the recorder, I wonder if 4:2:2 will make that much difference to me (maybe to potential clients). The gorgeous work we've seen from Macgregor and disjecta wasn't 4:2:2. Hmmm.

My feelings on the value of the EX1 haven't changed, but David I may be leaning to your side re the value of using the EX1's HD SDI. If the EX1's long gop rears its ugly head only once in a blue moon (obviously I'm speculating, but the evidence so far is comforting), and 4:2:2 is mostly beneficial for green screen work, my pennies might be better spent elsewhere. Much to be learnt when the products become available.

[Elton]

I've actually recorded the EX1's SDI output to ProRes 10bit via FCP and a Kona card. I'm not exactly sure how to discern if it's true 10 bit as I don't have an actual 10 bit monitor, but if anyone here feels like they have a logical method of determining the bit depth via post manipulation, pm me and I will send you a link to a short ProRes 10 bit clip to mess around with.

[Stevet]

Elton,
David at Cineform has been asking for someone to post an EX1 10bit file (SDI).
Based on your earlier thoughts, it's probably not using all 10 bits, but it would not hurt to put this to rest.

[Stevet]

Of course, one thing very helpful to know would be the price of this thing.

Because, let's be honest . . .

The more expensive it is, the less it makes sense to bother with it when there's already a camera which records intraframe 4:2:2 with no need for it to be tethered to anything.

Yes, but there's limited choices.
Adding a portable recorder is no different than everyone tethering LCD monitors and firestore drives.

[David Jimerson]

I get that, Steve; as I always say, it's about what your priorities are.

My only point is, the reason to use these boxes isn't to get a longer recording time, as it was with the Firestore (and as is becoming largely irrelevant now), but to bypass 4:2:0 long-GOP. No one would pick a Firestore over the cards when the cards give sufficient recording time. (Well, no one sane.) But the 4:2:0 long-GOP will always need to be gotten around if what you want is 4:2:2 intraframe. The more expensive that gets, the more stark the other advantages of the EX1 must be in order to justify the cost.

If the advantages of the EX1 make it worth spending a few more grand and always recording to a tethered box, then so be it. Some may not think so; for many, the big advantage was the increased recording time on the SxS cards due to the codec, which is negated by bypassing it. But some may indeed think so.

[Elton]

Elton,
David at Cineform has been asking for someone to post an EX1 10bit file (SDI).
Based on your earlier thoughts, it's probably not using all 10 bits, but it would not hurt to put this to rest.

I sent him an uncompressed 10 bit file. He seems to think it's the real deal.

Maybe he can chime in with his observations.

Just to let everyone know what I did--

A friend of mine who got his EX1 in early December came over to my house for a few hours of geek tests. We shot a little bit of greenscreen tethered to my Final Cut Pro workstation. We shot live from the camera (not XDCAM playback) and just to test for 10 bit, we also shot a little bit of the sky outside my backyard at dusk. It made for a good ramping gradient to help discern a difference in greyscale and color.

I made triple sure that I captured with the Kona 10 bit digitizer and used the SheerVideo 10 bit 422 codec. Just for a simple test, I exported a single frame of the video as a Quicktime YUV 10 bit uncompressed frame (about 5.27 MB per frame) and sent it off to him.

It looks like my initial observations were off. And that's a great thing. :)

[Insecto!]

I just purchased the CANON G1. At this point it's still brand new in the box.
I'm considering exchanging CANON for the new SONY EX1.

My goal is to use the HD-SDI output for greenscreen work. HD-SDI output to AJA KONA LHe using ProRes 422 codec. LIVE CAPTURE, no SxS card.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any significant avantage using the SONY vs. CANON for HD-SDI output?

Thanks.

[editorforhire]

The major advantage to the Sony is the 1/2" CMOS chip set. I think a larger chip is going to give you less noise and more light sensitivity.

[editorforhire]

Maybe Panasonic will introduce a HVX300 with 1/2 CMOS chips? I'd buy that. It already has the 4:2:2 image codec. It would give Sony a bad case of heartburn, but hey, that's competition!

Of course, one thing very helpful to know would be the price of this thing.

Because, let's be honest . . .

The more expensive it is, the less it makes sense to bother with it when there's already a camera which records intraframe 4:2:2 with no need for it to be tethered to anything.

[Stevet]

Maybe Panasonic will introduce a HVX300 with 1/2 CMOS chips? I'd buy that. It already has the 4:2:2 image codec. It would give Sony a bad case of heartburn, but hey, that's competition!

Yes, it sure would give the EX1 a run. That's for sure! LOL
But, this would only trigger another model for Sony or brand X.
Let's face it, we're in for good times now!

Also, there's info that now supports the EX1 SDI out is using the full 10 bit word, not 8.

Barlow Elton mentioned he sent EX1 footage captured from SDI to
Sheer 10 bit original (FCP) to David Newman (Cineform).

David seems to think it's genuine 10 bit.

As Barlow mentioned, I'm inclined to believe him.

This is really good news for EX1 owners and makes the wait for Cineform's portable drives that support up to 10 bit even harder.

[Elton]

I just purchased the CANON G1. At this point it's still brand new in the box.
I'm considering exchanging CANON for the new SONY EX1.

My goal is to use the HD-SDI output for greenscreen work. HD-SDI output to AJA KONA LHe using ProRes 422 codec. LIVE CAPTURE, no SxS card.

Can anyone tell me if there would be any significant avantage using the SONY vs. CANON for HD-SDI output?

Thanks.

The EX1 will absolutely be the best sub$10k for tethered greenscreen work. You'll get real, full raster 10bit 4:2:2 output to capture, and the low noise combined with a true progressive source will make for very smooth edges.