Cheap camera advice

[heyman]

hey guys. first post here and i have a quick question. i'm just getting into filming/editing and i want a cheap camera($500 or less preferrably, possibly $600 if there's any big difference within that range) that i can film bands, short films, etc. with that will give me a decent picture to hold me over for a bit until i feel ready for something such as an hvx. right now i have a cheap sony dcr hc28 and it's alright but i feel like the quality could be a lot better. i'm looking into a panny PV-GS320. any pros and cons between the two? or are there any other cameras out there for that price that will be better than the PV-GS320? 3ccd if possible.

thanks. hope to hear back.

[Spartacus]

for $699 you can get the Canon HV20 at the big bookseller, many here have it and like it and it is an awesome bang for the buck...
if your going to film at HC shows, I´d add a dynamic mic to handle the soundpressure...

PS don´t forget that for HDV you´ll need a more powerfull workstation, but anything multicore should be enough...





American Nightmare!

[chapelgrovefilms]

That Panasonic PV-GS320 seems decent for an entry-level camera. But since it doesn't have a mic input jack, you're going to want something to record your audio on. A Zoom H2 can be had for $199 or less, and does a pretty decent job of recording sound via the built-in mics or the 1/8" mic jack. A Zoom H4 is more expensive (around $399), but has advantages -- XLR combo input jacks with switchable phantom power, mainly. Its internal mics are also pretty good, though. Either would likely be way better than the built-in mic on the camera.

Good luck!

[Spartacus]

That Panasonic PV-GS320 seems decent for an entry-level camera. But since it doesn't have a mic input jack, you're going to want something to record your audio on. A Zoom H2 can be had for $199 or less, and does a pretty decent job of recording sound via the built-in mics or the 1/8" mic jack. A Zoom H4 is more expensive (around $399), but has advantages -- XLR combo input jacks with switchable phantom power, mainly. Its internal mics are also pretty good, though. Either would likely be way better than the built-in mic on the camera.

Good luck!
He is asking about entry level cameras around 500-600$ and you advice him to record sound seperatly for another 200-400$...?
48Khz "onboard" sound is more than enough for entry level needs IMHO.
I´d rather spend that money on a used dynamic mic for concerts and a new Rode NTG2 shotgun...
And entry level or not, a mic-in is a must!
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV20-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B000MUV6BA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1198142409&sr=8-1

[heyman]

for $699 you can get the Canon HV20 at the big bookseller, many here have it and like it and it is an awesome bang for the buck...


that may be what i end up doing but would the 1ccd canon show a noticeable enough difference between a similar model 3ccd jvc or panasonic that would be worth saving an extra hundred more dollars?


long live AN :]

[Spartacus]

Honestly I think the cam at this price is a no brainer.
Cameras with more manual controll and a better/bigger formfactor will cost you a lot more, i´d say it starts getting interessting with canons GL2 and then come all the other cameras talked about in this forum.
Don´t forget the dynamic mic for recording shows...

[Huy Vu]

The HV20 isn't 1 CCD, it uses a single CMOS chip that's actually bigger than the Panasonic.

[heyman]

The HV20 isn't 1 CCD, it uses a single CMOS chip that's actually bigger than the Panasonic.

that's good to know! i've been watching some sample videos and i think the hv20 may ultimately be what i end up getting. now i just have to bare with my handycam until i can get the money for everything. thanks for all of the input! i'm sure you'll be hearing from me sometime soon.

[bilgami]

i love my panny pv-dv952 and 953 those are on ebay from 3-600$ there is also the panny pg-gs400 and 500 also in ebay but may be over the 600 range.

[chapelgrovefilms]

He is asking about entry level cameras around 500-600$ and you advice him to record sound seperatly for another 200-400$...?
48Khz "onboard" sound is more than enough for entry level needs IMHO.
I´d rather spend that money on a used dynamic mic for concerts and a new Rode NTG2 shotgun...
And entry level or not, a mic-in is a must!
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV20-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B000MUV6BA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1198142409&sr=8-1

If you have suggestions, fine -- there's no need to trash me for putting in an opinion, is there?

He asked for a camera for $500-$600 and YOU recommended a $700 camera AND a separate mic. :)

We're all just putting in our 2 cents. That was just my opinion, based on the camera he'd already expressed an interest in. Depending on camera motor noise, I DON'T think the onboard mic is really a viable choice if he wants to do anything remotely semi-professional at all. I think he'll be disappointed in the quality of the sound he gets. I was looking for some option that might fit within his budget and give him the best possible results for the money. Many people, especially beginners, focus on the camera and forget to think about the quality of the sound. I was just trying to help.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I don't see any "trashing". Just someone that disagreed with you and questioned why you gave the advice you gave. Didn't see any colorful or harsh adjectives or anything personal about the comments.

[chapelgrovefilms]

The tone of the opening sentence sounded, to me at least, derogatory. Why even mention my advice at all? Why not just state what he thinks the best course of action is, and let the OP make up his own mind?

If it had been me, I would've directed my comments to the OP.....something like, "Well, I don't think you need to record sound externally on your budget. My advice would be to..." Directing his objection at me made it sound confrontational at the least.

If it wasn't meant that way, then I apologize.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I guess so. Sorry for butting in, none of my business really.

HV20 def seems like the camera to get in that price range.

[chapelgrovefilms]

I guess so. Sorry for butting in, none of my business really.

HV20 def seems like the camera to get in that price range.

Nah, I'm probably just being overly sensitive. Lack of sleep. :embarasse

I do think he's eventually going to want better sound than he can get from the onboard mics, though.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

it has no mic mini input that you can use an XLR to mini adapter?
I assumed as much as this is what I did back in the day before my DVX then HVX.
With a good mic and 48khz/16bit won't he be solid?

[chapelgrovefilms]

PS don´t forget that for HDV you´ll need a more powerfull workstation, but anything multicore should be enough...



This is true. You'll also need professional editing software if you're going to do HD. I don't think Windows Movie Maker will handle HD. Probably need at least Sony Vegas -- though I'm not an expert on the various editing packages. Maybe someone else can steer you in the right direction on that.

Good luck!

[chapelgrovefilms]

it has no mic mini input that you can use an XLR to mini adapter?
I assumed as much as this is what I did back in the day before my DVX then HVX.
With a good mic and 48khz/16bit won't he be solid?

If you're referring to the Canon, I don't know if it has a mic input or not -- it might. The Panasonic the OP was asking about in his original post, however, does not have a mic input. That's why I suggested something like the Zoom H2.

I think B&H has that Panny for about $380. He could get the H2 for $200 or less and still be in the upper end of his price range. That was where my head was at when I made the suggestion.

[chapelgrovefilms]

Yeah, the Canon does have the 3.5mm mini mic input jack. And it records in 24p. It would definitely be a much better camera than the Panny, if he can afford the difference in price. $709.95 at B&H, maybe cheaper elsewhere.

[chapelgrovefilms]

The review on camcorderinfo.com seems to cast aspersions on the HV20's audio performance.....

"In HDV mode, the HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) records 16 bit MPEG-1 Layer 2 (MP2) audio, while in DV mode it records 16 or 12 bit PCM audio. This is the HDV audio conundrum: HDV video is four times the resolution of DV, but PCM is superior to MP2. MP3 audio (a compression of PCM) has a higher sound quality than MP2 because it has a greater scope of sub-bands that reduce the bit-rate while pumping up the clarity. MP2 utilizes frequency masking, which compares levels of frequency and drops the channels not discernibly perceptible to the human auditory system. The bottom line is that MP2 sound is like an unkempt, rusty old ’84 Pontiac while PCM sound is like a well-oiled, tuned up ’84 Pontiac. Not a monumental difference, but enough to drive the sound guy up the wall. "

So he may still want to consider recording sound externally at some point. I think if the OP could find a way to afford the HV20 and something to record sound on externally, like one of the Zoom recorders or something similar, then he'll have the best of both worlds -- excellent picture and great sound.

[heyman]

as spartacus said earlier, amazon has the hv20 for about $700 as well so i think i may just save up for that since it will allow me to shoot a lot better for not too much more. seems like a solid buy and then i'll eventually get some mics. as far as post for this camera goes.. i'm getting fcs2 soon. anyone know the compatibility with the hv20 and this software? will i need something else all together or are there any programs that will work better? :dankk2:

[chapelgrovefilms]

Sounds like a plan!

I don't know anything about FCS2, but I would think it would handle HD. I'm sure somebody here knows. If not, try posting in the Final Cut forum.

Good luck!

[chapelgrovefilms]

Just did a quick check -- looks like FCS2 will indeed do HD.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/

Sounds like you're set!

[chapelgrovefilms]

Hey, check out this thread! It has various mic comparisons with the Canon HV20 -- including the Zoom H2.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=116130

[Spartacus]

....something like, "Well, I don't think you need to record sound externally on your budget. My advice would be to..."
This would have been more neutral, yes :beer:
Maybe I´m too much used to having to make my point clear in team meetings, looking for flaws in peoples argumentation, a lot here will know the type of producer who always talks about "high end" "premium brands""high production value" and later asks if we really need a sound tech and a seperate boom op and if the four locations really need two days shooting time...

Anyway, wasn´t ment as an insult, only as constructive crititism.
I still think, for low budget and beginners, in-camera audio should be good enough, granted that you use an external microfon via mini-jack to gather the sound...
Also don´t know how the H4 will perform with very high SPL, heyman will record hardcore shows that tend to be rather loud.
For shortfilms, which he also mentioned, I think the NTG2 on a DIY boom will do good service, too.
Nothing against recording sound seperately, nothing against Chapelgrovefims!
We´re all here to help each other out...:thumbsup:

[chapelgrovefilms]

Hey Spartacus, no worries here. Lack of sleep last night made me a bit testy. Sorry about that. As long as the OP got what he needed, we're all good.

You're totally right that in-camera audio used with an external mic would be more than good enough for a beginner. I'm afraid that Panny that he seemed interested in in his first post didn't have a mic input jack, which is why I thought recording externally would be the way to go. But yes, with the Canon he'd be just fine recording internally, especially using an external mic.

I've heard some great audio recorded with the NTG2. I've also heard (read) that the Okatava MK012 is great, and it's less expensive than the NTG2.

One thing I like about the idea of using a Zoom H2 or H4 is portability. Make your DIY boompole, attach your mic, and strap the H2 or H4 to the pole. (Or hang it from the boom guy's belt.) Plug in a set of headphones, and your boom guy is totally portable and independent of the camera -- no cable runs to worry about.

(BTW, I misquoted the price for the Zoom H4 -- it's $299, not $399 as I'd originally said. And the H2 is $199.)

At any rate, I think the OP is going to do very well with the Canon as suggested. Bravo!

[chapelgrovefilms]

About the high SPL -- in a situation like that with the H4, you'd want to use external mics rather than the built-ins. The H4 can handle both dynamic and condenser mics -- even mics that need phantom power. It accepts both XLR jacks and 1/4" jacks. The record levels are adjustable, and there's also a sensitivity switch (L/M/H). From what I've read on other boards, a lot of people use the H4 to secretly record live concerts, so I guess it works okay for that.

[onetime1]

You can have a look at the Sony DCR-DVD408, it got good reviews:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,131958-page,1/article.html
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000M3GZMC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Right now you can get it for $480 (http://www.dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=73025).

[Jacquot]

FWIW, I own and use the Panny 320. It's a great 3 CCD camera with excellent quality for going out on SD DVD. But I also have a SD 702T and several mics for my film camera. Audio is non-existent with the 320.

The HV20 doesn't have XLR, so you'll need a BeachTek anyway. I borrowed a HV20 before I got the 320. Part of what I was doing was shooting from outside a moving vehicle. With the CMOS chip and rolling shutter, the HV20 was impossible to use. It look terrible. Squished jello looking lines. There are scenes you just can't shoot with the HV20.

If you're going to DVD mpeg2 then why HD? If you plan to go direct to an HDTV or can distribute HD some way, then HD is the choice (but maybe not the rolling shutter HV20)

Otherwise the Panny footage looks excellent and is so easy to cut.

Think you need 24fps? Well, it's still video.....