Advice

[Steve Holmes]

I am on the verge of investing in a new camera for documenting work, like concerts, theatre performances, corporate videos and short films and up until the EX1 came out I was already to get a HVX 200 now I am not so sure.

After seeing the footage of the EX1 it looks great and would work nicely with my m2 as the EX1 has good low light performance. When this is added to the price with 2 8gb cards it becomes very tempting but there are some issues I wanted to get some advice on. I have a G5 Dual 2GHZ with AJA LH in, (and a MBP 2.4 which I would rather not edit on) I am not sure how the old G5 will cope with the long GOP of the EX1 and if I have to upgrade my computer that has to be factored in. So do I go with the
EX1
Higher resolution, good low light, good LCD display, good record time on 2 8gb cards.

HVX200
Proven track record, works well with G5 and AJA card, better codec

Cheers for any advice you can give me.
Steve

[philip bloom]

my choice would be the ex1, having sold off my hvx. for many reason already mentioned

[ullanta]

Why are you considering either of these cameras? If most of what you're doing is long-form recording, they only become sort of viable with numerous 32GB cards - and redundancy for live events can be problematic.

I use an HVX for similar things (mainly opera and similar events) - but never alone for critical live recordings. If you want to record dual-system (P2 and firewire) you don't get much time on the cards. And the transfers, large amounts of data to archive and back up, and lack of a tape archive can be nervewracking and occasionally problematic.

I love my HVX, when it's the appropriate tool, and even when it's a secondary camera for shoots where it's not the ideal tool... but I don't think it's quite ready as a long-form camera for critical live events. I'd say the same for the EX.... great for quality at the price point, imagery, etc... not so great for workflow in a long-form critical situation.

[LuckyStudio 13]

I dont really think one can shoot good event coverage with just 1 cam. The most economical package solution for LONG event videography IMHO* is the Canon XH-A1 paired with a Canon HV-20.

[mico]

The EX is perfect for the recording of long live events. Don't know why anyone would dismiss it. Two 16g cards will give you close to one hour and 40 min. in the best quality 1080p setting. Obviously more in the HDV quality setting. You gotta change tapes in the canons after only half that time. I mean how long are these long events. I've shot docs and in a full day I've used maybe three to for tapes that would be 4 - 16gig cards and I'm good. No laptop to lug around to transfer full cards and no torturous logging when I get home.

[Stevet]

If Sony pulls through with the firmware upgrade and offers a pre-approved list of Express cards, you'll going to be able to buy two 32GB really cheap.

[GaryOldman]

I am in the same situation. I was within days of buying an HVX for my silly little movies and wedding work. But after finally seeing EX1 footage, I'm not so sure anymore. I'm not worried about the vignetting issue so much because I trust Sony will be fixing it with firmware soon. What I'm worried about is, mainly, the long GOP. I do a lot of After Effects work, and isn't long GOP bad for AE? Also, I like to edit exclusivley in Premiere, and that's a bit of an issue right now. I just don't know what to do. EX1 seems like such a better camera, but the HVX appears to be an easier set up.

[ullanta]

The EX is perfect for the recording of long live events. Don't know why anyone would dismiss it. Two 16g cards will give you close to one hour and 40 min. in the best quality 1080p setting. Obviously more in the HDV quality setting. You gotta change tapes in the canons after only half that time. I mean how long are these long events. I've shot docs and in a full day I've used maybe three to for tapes that would be 4 - 16gig cards and I'm good. No laptop to lug around to transfer full cards and no torturous logging when I get home.


Well, 3 hours is common for opera, sometimes 2 shows a day. Especially if you're working alone (but even if you're not), there's often not enough time to transfer, verify, check footage between acts or shows. So, for me to rely on the HVX, I'd need at least six hours of shooting time at 100Mbps ('cause backup over firewire is essential). So, 12 32GB cards? Pricey! 2 days in a row of shooting (also common)? I have to spend the time transferring, verifying, archiving 400GB after the show. LONG day!

Sure, maybe this is extreme. But not completely uncommon... he did mention theatrical events!

Also, project management becomes harder if your post-production process takes any time. With tape, you can load your material onto the system when you're ready... keeping things clear for other projects in the meantime. When you have to keep 400GB of data around on hard drives, etc, until you're ready to edit and finish, you end up spending a LOT on hard drives. And when one dies... it's a big problem.

Again, take this with a grain of salt - I do this. Even as a second camera, the same issues come up with the HVX, and I seem to be doing OK. But it is a REAL PAIN and often I wish I had gone with a tape-based HD approach. Except that Long-GOP sucks, especially under theatrical lighting conditions. Oh well.

[mico]

Well, 3 hours is common for opera, sometimes 2 shows a day. Especially if you're working alone (but even if you're not), there's often not enough time to transfer, verify, check footage between acts or shows. So, for me to rely on the HVX, I'd need at least six hours of shooting time at 100Mbps ('cause backup over firewire is essential). So, 12 32GB cards? Pricey! 2 days in a row of shooting (also common)? I have to spend the time transferring, verifying, archiving 400GB after the show. LONG day!

Sure, maybe this is extreme. But not completely uncommon... he did mention theatrical events!

Also, project management becomes harder if your post-production process takes any time. With tape, you can load your material onto the system when you're ready... keeping things clear for other projects in the meantime. When you have to keep 400GB of data around on hard drives, etc, until you're ready to edit and finish, you end up spending a LOT on hard drives. And when one dies... it's a big problem.

Again, take this with a grain of salt - I do this. Even as a second camera, the same issues come up with the HVX, and I seem to be doing OK. But it is a REAL PAIN and often I wish I had gone with a tape-based HD approach. Except that Long-GOP sucks, especially under theatrical lighting conditions. Oh well.

Yeah but thats with the HVX, putting aside the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 issue, the EX wouldn't give you the time constraint issues that the HVX does. And as far as verifying well at the end of the day you got 4 - 16 cards ( which is financially manageable ) just like having four tapes you'd have to verify. You do have to view tapes, right? But with flash cards you'd copy to two hard drives, take one hard drive open up the browser software and click each clip. You either have it or you don't whether it be tape or flash card. You hand over the hard drive, you go home. The thought of going to tape for anything long form makes me cringe.

[ullanta]

My problem is that tape problems tend to be local, while file-based problems tend to be catastrophic. So, even if a tape breaks, has a glitch, etc; it's largely usable and recoverable.

I guess the lower data rate of the EX does help... I wasn't thinking clearly about that. But there's no redundancy, is there? Can you record FW out and to the cards?

In general, I don't touch tape. I record direct to Final Cut Pro, and in general operate tapelessly for big events. But It's nice to have a tape in the camera just in case, and for backup. On one occasion, somone accidentally yanked the firewire cable from my hard drive during capture. Times like that, you're glad to have a redundant recording, too!

[mico]

My problem is that tape problems tend to be local, while file-based problems tend to be catastrophic. So, even if a tape breaks, has a glitch, etc; it's largely usable and recoverable.

I guess the lower data rate of the EX does help... I wasn't thinking clearly about that. But there's no redundancy, is there? Can you record FW out and to the cards?

In general, I don't touch tape. I record direct to Final Cut Pro, and in general operate tapelessly for big events. But It's nice to have a tape in the camera just in case, and for backup. On one occasion, somone accidentally yanked the firewire cable from my hard drive during capture. Times like that, you're glad to have a redundant recording, too!

I think I read no firewire out while recording but don't quote me. That leaves two redundant possibilities: a usb on the go drive or the HD -SDI out

[Stevet]

The EX1 offers HDV 1080I at 1440 X 1080 via the firewire while recording to local memory, but only in HDV, not XDCAM 35mb

[Barry_S]

... So do I go with the
EX1
Higher resolution, good low light, good LCD display, good record time on 2 8gb cards.

HVX200
Proven track record, works well with G5 and AJA card, better codec

Cheers for any advice you can give me.
Steve

Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.

[Tim Le]

Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.

I like this. This is a very fair assessment. To be fair to the HVX, it's 2 years older than the EX. Back then they didn't have the high resolution LCD screens that they have now and sensor technology has improved. Panasonic just really needs to hit back with a new camera and they need to upgrade all the operator interfaces like the lens, LCD and VF. I'm tired of all these low-grade interfaces on camera...Canon is guilty of this too. The EX1 is going in the right direction but it should have gotten the high-resolution VF of the other new Sony HDV camera, the HVR-Z7. That VF is the same resolution as the EX1's external LCD!

[mico]

Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.


Yeah but that extra $1650 you pay gives you 1/2" chips, better DOF characteristics, true 1920x1080 with 1000 lines of resolution compared to the HVX's 550. Usable focusable lcd, a true manual lens with iris ring, 50 minutes record time included in price at xdcam quality as opposed to 16 min. 1080p for the HVX, HD-SDI 4:2:2 out, and, still being debated, possible better low light and noise performance. How much is that worth?
Its like going in circles isn't it ?

[monte]

Yeah but that extra $1650 you pay gives you 1/2" chips, better DOF characteristics, true 1920x1080 with 1000 lines of resolution compared to the HVX's 550. Usable focusable lcd, a true manual lens with iris ring, 50 minutes record time included in price at xdcam quality as opposed to 16 min. 1080p for the HVX, HD-SDI 4:2:2 out, and, still being debated, possible better low light and noise performance. How much is that worth?
Its like going in circles isn't it ?

Very big difference

[mico]

I just realized HVX200 w/16gb card $5200

Sony xdcam ex w/ 2- 8gb cards $6500 (price several authorized sellers have it for)

Thats only a $1300 difference not $1650.

The question for me is wobble and 4:2:0

[Steve Holmes]

I am well aware of the issue of recording long shows but I think this is achievable, and is only part of what I do. If I recorded to tape I have to spend hours capturing the footage which is a real pain when busy. Also as solid state cards come down in price recording longer shows will make this much easier.

I suppose my issues are.
Rolling shutter problems of the EX1 (under show lighting) and what spec computer you need to edit the long Gop from the EX1. I do have FCP 6 but transcoding to ProRes takes up the same amount of time as capturing tape.

Cheers
for all the advice
Steve

[GaryOldman]

Won't the EX1 be bad for heavy After Effects work? I always heard long GOP was better for simpler edits. I've got Adobe Master collection and need a new camera, but I'm afraid the EX1 is a poor choice for extensive color correction / motion graphics.

[Stevet]

Yes, but the EX1 has 4:2:2 via SDI. For in house work, it will be awesome.
Cineform is working on a 4:2:2 portable drive HDMI drive for less than 2K.
Hopefully they accomodate additional power lines for interfaces such as the HDLINK SDI>HDMI (5V power needed) ($399).

Now the only issue left is rolling shutter. If you don't like that, then run the other way.
Owning the camera I've already determined it's not seen in normal useage.

For HVX200 owners, I would suggest holding on to your camera and wait to see how Panasonic responds to the EX1. If they offer good rez and low noise with 4:2:2, that would be awesome. At the same time, the next EX1 generation (EX2?) may offer 4:2:2 to a better codec.

Things are looking good for all of us.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

I'm not worried about the vignetting issue so much because I trust Sony will be fixing it with firmware soon.

Is a lens issue fixable with firmware? I thought vignetting issues were more hardware based issues.

Then again, has this issue been confirmed for all units? Or just a faulty batch?

Either way, I'm no repairman, but I'd expect to have to send the camera into a sony maintenance center or somewhere of likeness.

and btw

For HVX200 owners, I would suggest holding on to your camera and wait to see how Panasonic responds to the EX1. If they offer good rez and low noise with 4:2:2, that would be awesome.

What? I don't think this will be coming in a firmware update either... please explain

Thanks!

[Stevet]

What? I don't think this will be coming in a firmware update either... please explain

Thanks!

You misunderstood the post.
My point was to hold onto your HVX200 and wait for Panny to respond with a NEW model that offers better rez and lower noise.

Or maybe wait for the next generation EX1.

What I'm hearing from HVX200 owners is the difference is not great enough for them to dump all they have into the HVX200 and work flow.


There have been a few, such as Philip Bloom, that have moved from the HVX200 to the EX1.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

What I'm hearing from HVX200 owners is the difference is not great enough for them to dump all they have into the HVX200 and work flow.


There have been a few, such as Philip Bloom, that have moved from the HVX200 to the EX1.

I think you are quite right. And thanks for the clarification. I knew you couldn't have meant that and now I get it :grin:

Edit: Do you think the vignetting firm ware upgrade is possible? I'd say that's not an electronics issue.

[Stevet]

I agree, it seems hard to believe vignetting shown mid travel with the lens could be fixed via software.
Then again, I've been proven wrong a thousand times. LOL

[GaryOldman]

Prodigy, I'm afraid you misunderstood my post, too. Regardless of whether or not the vignetting can be fixed through firmware, I don't care. Like I said originally, I'm not worried about it. Please re-read my post, as the questions I asked in it have still gone unanswered.

[ullanta]

What were the questions, exactly? ;-)

Again, I can speak to concerts and theater performances. For those, you have what seems like a tradeoff between low-light benefits of the EX-1, wider depth of field of the HVX (a benefit in many of these situations!), and potential rolling-shutter issues of the EX-1.

For theatrical and some concert work, you're going to tend to be on the long end of the lens, which makes everything a bit less smooth, and might exacerbate wobble/skew issues. Theatrical lighting is a trade-off; the (reportedly) better sensitivity and lattitude of the EX1 will be useful; potential mosaicing and partial exposures due to sudden drastic lighting changes may be an issue. But of course I've never touched an EX1, much less shot a lot of shows with one... the reason you're not getting clear answers is because this whole thread's a tad premature...

While you're coughing up the bucks for the EX1, if you do, you may want to just cough out a few more for one of the new devices (like the Aja Io HD or the MOTU V3HD that'll transcode HD-SDI to ProRes or DVCProHD on the fly for laptop capture and avoid long-gop issues when you're relatively stationary)

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

I am in the same situation. I was within days of buying an HVX for my silly little movies and wedding work. But after finally seeing EX1 footage, I'm not so sure anymore. I'm not worried about the vignetting issue so much because I trust Sony will be fixing it with firmware soon. What I'm worried about is, mainly, the long GOP. I do a lot of After Effects work, and isn't long GOP bad for AE? Also, I like to edit exclusivley in Premiere, and that's a bit of an issue right now. I just don't know what to do. EX1 seems like such a better camera, but the HVX appears to be an easier set up.

I don't know... I have the habit of misunderstanding people sometimes, but I'm racking my brain around this line "I'm not worried about the vignetting issue so much because I trust Sony will be fixing it with firmware soon." and I'm not sure how I misunderstood you. :(

As far as Gop, I don't know, and as your observation about the HVX, you are right. The reason it's an 'easier setup' is because it's an established workflow. If the Ex1 takes off, and I'm sure it will have it's run, pretty soon everyone will have support. The early adopters of P2 had their share of adopting to the workflow. Now it seems everyone supports p2 mxf. If you get the EX1 now, the minor workflow issues you worry about is the small price you pay for being the new kid on the block. But you do get braggin rights.

[Stevet]

wider depth of field of the HVX (a benefit in many of these situations!),


???
This not NOT a benefit. Never has ANYONE been looking for a wider DOF with these video cameras.
After all, this the VERY problem with 1/3" or smaller sensor cams. Everything is in focus, even at wider apertures.
We are trying to overcome this problem by throwing on 35mm adaptors.

We're looking for that 3D look. When everything is always in focus, it looks 2D, video looking. Your eyes have no where to go.

Wider DOF is easy to get. All you have to do is close down on the aperture.
We have ALL kinds of room for this, even on a 2/3" sensor cams.

The problem is with our video cameras you can be at a wide FOV (field of view) and still have a lot in focus even at a wide apeture. We want selective focus, we know we can always get tons of wider DOF. It's the other end of the spectrum these cameras fall short on.

[Stevet]

While you're coughing up the bucks for the EX1, if you do, you may want to just cough out a few more for one of the new devices (like the Aja Io HD or the MOTU V3HD that'll transcode HD-SDI to ProRes or DVCProHD on the fly for laptop capture and avoid long-gop issues when you're relatively stationary)

Yes, and you can do it on the cheap.

Black Magic HDLINK $399
Black Magic Intensity $250

I already own Cineform
But you will need a full size computer

[Barry_Green]

???
This not NOT a benefit. Never has ANYONE been looking for a wider DOF with these video cameras.
??? Never has ANYONE? Dude, come on. Re-read what Ullanta posted. He's talking about shooting live events and concerts. Absolutely deeper depth of field is desirable for those circumstances.

After all, this the VERY problem with 1/3" or smaller sensor cams. Everything is in focus, even at wider apertures.
We are trying to overcome this problem by throwing on 35mm adaptors.
Filmmakers are, yes. Sporting events and news and ENG and live event coverage? Not so much. There are many markets out there.

Have you ever shot 35mm film? Shallow DOF can be a royal monumental inconvenience in a lot of circumstances.

We're looking for that 3D look. When everything is always in focus, it looks 2D, video looking. Your eyes have no where to go.
Again, SOME people want that look. But Disjecta doesn't; when he's shooting landscapes he likes crispy details and every blade of grass in focus. In fact, that's the "HD" look so many people clamor for.

Deep focus is a tool and many times we do want it. There have been many, many times when I've opted to underexpose a shot on 35mm, just to get an extra stop's depth of field.

Wider DOF is easy to get. All you have to do is close down on the aperture.
We have ALL kinds of room for this, even on a 2/3" sensor cams.
Again, you totally missed the context. Go into one of Ullanta's concert halls and see how much room there is to stop down the aperture... :thumbsup:

The problem is with our video cameras you can be at a wide FOV (field of view) and still have a lot in focus even at a wide apeture. We want selective focus, we know we can always get tons of wider DOF. It's the other end of the spectrum these cameras fall short on.
Again -- for filmmaking, maybe. But there are lots and lots of different video uses, and DVXUser is here to assist/inform/share on all those uses. And there are many uses where deep focus is quite desirable, and for those users deep focus isn't "the problem", it's a benefit.

[GaryOldman]

I'm not sure how I misunderstood you. :(

You misunderstood me because that was obviously not the point of my post. It was a tangent, and while the information may have been incorrect, it was and is a matter I don't care about, which I stated clearly in the post. It's ok though, film students tend to over analyze everything. I know because I used to be one. Cheers!