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anthom
12-05-2007, 12:56 PM
hi,
i wanted to star this thread cause i cant post at Dvinfo, where
the camera is being discussed.

http://www.sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2m/smx-12a2c.html


i have some questions becaue im pretty new to the digital workflow. i hope
someone can help me.


1.) is the camera ready to shoot when i get it after i attached my lens for 2/3sensors/16mm film, and connected to my laptop?

3.) is there any software included in the package, that gives me control over the camera, e.g. shutter, gain, curves....

4.) is there any other way for monitoring, then using my laptop? any outputs i could use?

5.) which outputs has the camera?

6.) does is get the power from the connection to the laptop?

7.) can i attach it to a tripod?

8.) can i record sound with the camera?

9.) on the dvinfo forum Farhad Towfiq posted this:
"We are considering to move to newer sensor P4562-3T as quickly as possible and limit this version of the camera with P3562 to production of 20-100 cameras. Therefore, this version will be more like a collector item."

is the version that is sold right now (SMX-12A2C) the so called "collector item" or has it already buit in the new sensor, and what would be the differences of the sensors?


best regards, and sorry for my bad english

Julian Holzwarth

Kholi
12-05-2007, 01:02 PM
How can you get 24P from it?

Neil Burner
12-06-2007, 11:53 AM
I dont know but I want to buy one!

Barry_Green
12-06-2007, 12:23 PM
It's $2500, by the way. Does it do variable frame rates, and is 24 one of the frame rates offered?

Kholi
12-06-2007, 12:43 PM
I know, that's what I was saying under 3k. I'm definitely on board, it's only a matter of time before they update their status again.

I think 24 and 25 are one of the framerates judging by the sample videos.

Barry_Green
12-06-2007, 12:48 PM
Ah yes, right. They say delivery is about 4 to 5 weeks after you place your order.

What's the workflow like? What do you capture footage to, what do you use to edit, etc. It says 12 bits... what kind of color sampling? I'd guess 4:2:0 since it's using a Beyer pattern...

Barry_Green
12-06-2007, 12:49 PM
Also, who's their target market? Clearly not the digital cinema crowd, is it for security cameras?

I like that c-mount option; I wonder if I could get an adapter for my old CP16's Zeiss 10-100...

EDIT... yep.
http://www.pbase.com/frogalley/image/39270707

Kholi
12-06-2007, 05:02 PM
It's listed for Cinematographers and you get a discount if you work in film.

Anhar Miah
12-07-2007, 06:34 AM
Take a look at the sample images, very impressive, I wonder if the Letus genius guy could make a c-mount 35 mm adaptor?

Thats a commination I would like to see...

Neil Burner
12-07-2007, 07:09 AM
well i emailed them to get some more info and this is what they said:

Q Does recoarding software come with it?
A. Yes, the recording soft is part of the delivery kit

Q: Can you shoot 24p?
A: Shooting at 24p: yes, at full resolution in 12 bit mode the max fps is 30, in 8 bit mode - 60 frame rate is user controlled

Q. Color Sampling 4:2:0, 4:1:1, 4:2:2, 4:4:4?
A. Camera does no bayer->rgb conversion, it just sends raw frames to PC. Application can use one of the implemented conversion algorithms of camera API or an algorithm developed by user. Camera API provides access to raw data.


One thing i did notice about the footage is that it looked like there was a slight flickering/strobeing effect happening. Has anyone else noticed this?


hope this info is useful.

Barry_Green
12-07-2007, 08:29 AM
Ah, so there is no color sampling, in fact there's no processing at all. Kind of Red-like in that aspect -- the raw information is sent to the computer and all demosaic'ing and processing is done there.

Interesting. So it's useless without proper software; capture software is necessary but we also need proper image processing software. If we had SculptorHD working with this product, then we'd have something really interesting indeed.

Neil Burner
12-07-2007, 09:26 AM
So anyone with an extra $2500.00 laying around and SculptorHD willing to give it a shot? :)

anthom
12-07-2007, 11:00 AM
thx for the infos neil! i also got a reply from sumix:

> 1) what does the camera cost and when itll be available?
The price is $2500 + shipping cost, lead time - 5-6 weeks after the PO
is placed

> 2) is the camera ready to shoot when i get it after i attached my lens
> for 2/3sensors/16mm film, and connected to my laptop?
Provided you have one free 1-Gigabit Ethernet port on the computer,
recommended Intel integrated
Having installed all needed software (driver, application) you can get
video stream visualized or recorded to HDD.

> 3) is there any software included in the package, that gives me control
> over the camera, e.g. shutter, gain, curves....
Sure, standard camera application is at your disposal. Also, using camera
API you can develop the applications of your own, limited only by your
imagination :)

> 4) is there any other way for monitoring, then using my laptop? any
> outputs i could use?
> 5.) which outputs has the camera?

The camera application can create avi file ready to be played or a file
with raw data (raw bayer frames)
> 6) does it get the power from the connection to the laptop?

PowerOwerEthernet IEEE 802.3af compliant or external power: 5 V

> 7) can i attach it to a tripod?
yes

> 8) can I record sound with the camera?
No


> is the version you are selling right now (SMX-12A2C) the so called
> "collector item" or has it already built in the new sensor,
> and what would be the differences of the sensors?

The camera we are selling now uses 3652, about the 3652 - 4652
difference - later

------------------------------------------------------------------------

i really need a camera, but i wont buy it till i saw sum more sample
videos. the ones on the site didnt really convince me,
and those square pixel pattern scared me a lil bit and the extrem low saturation
of the previews is strange, when i color correct them they are
extremly noisy, first i thought the previews were shot under low
light conditions, but i dont think because u can see extrem highlights
on the glass, so they were lights...
or has this sum to do wit the raw format? can i capture them wit a higer saturation? somebody knows dat?

and i searched at b&h for sum lenses and they have a lot 2/3 c-mount lenses,
but for industrial/surveillance use...
has someone experience with those lenses? can they be used for normal
feature films either? are they corrected against chromatic aberrations,
distorsion, do they have a nice bokeh,...?

here is a conversion chart for the lenses

35 mm: Equivalent focal length HD 2/3":

14mm 5.6mm
16mm 6.4mm
20mm 8mm
24mm 9.7mm
28mm 11.3mm
32mm 13mm
40mm 16mm
50mm 20mm
85mm 34mm
100mm 40mm
135mm 54mm

what happens when i attach sum 35mm lenses wit an adapter?
somebody knows dat? becaue u can buy pretty cheap
nikon to c-mount adapters....

Barry_Green
12-07-2007, 11:33 AM
I used still-camera lenses with a c-mount 16mm camera many times, they work fine.

Keep in mind you're already going to get very nice shallow DOF with a 2/3" chip; watch our Hallows Fest film "Unawakening" to get an idea of the kind of DOF you'll get with one of these even without using a 35mm adapter.

For c-mount lenses look for the Switars on ebay, they're pretty decent and reasonably cheap.

If this thing was $1,000 I'd take the gamble and buy it and report on it, but at $2500 I'm not quite so adventurous.

As for the striping or patterns, that might be due to their software maybe... in other words, with a better demosaic'ing algorithm perhaps that could be fixed. Sure would be nice if SculptorHD worked with this!

anthom
12-07-2007, 01:40 PM
u took 35mm still lenses?
does that mean when i take a 50mm focal length (for 35mm film),
i get a focal length of 20mm on 16mm film/2/3sensor? so i have a wide angle lens now?

i watched the short movie, i really like it!
with this sensor size there is really no need for a 35mm adapter
in my opinion.

Barry_Green
12-07-2007, 02:01 PM
The focal length doesn't change just because you mount it on a different-sized sensor. The field of view changes, but the focal length doesn't.

Put a 50mm still lens on a c-mount adapter and mount that to a 16mm camera or a 2/3" sensor, and it'll look exactly like as if you took an ENG lens and zoomed it to 50mm.

A 2/3" sensor is very close to the size of 16mm film and will provide a field of view and depth of field that's in the same ballpark as 16mm film.

If you took a lens off of a 35mm still camera and put it on a 35mm movie camera, you'd notice that it looks more "telephoto" (owing to the 35mm movie frame being about half the size of a 35mm still-camera frame). If you took that same lens and put it on a 16mm camera (or 2/3" video camera) you'd see it looking even more telephoto.

Kholi
12-07-2007, 02:23 PM
I dunno. I think it's worth the 2-2500.00. Especially if you can do 24p. I'd like to see where the de-mosaic is going because I'm not a fan of the little lines I'm seeing. If they're saying it's for cinematographers as well, then the image should be a little cleaner than that.

It is a start, though, and thousands upon thousands less for 120FPS 720p AND 1080p60p. That's pretty impressive.

Not Hydra, but still a start.

Anhar Miah
12-07-2007, 04:23 PM
Where Can I download the API documentation? I might be able to program a nifty little camera control tool..of course free for all DVXusers:)

Anhar Miah
12-07-2007, 04:29 PM
don't worry found it there website, I think I'm gonna build a camera tool ! I just had a scan read of the API docs and you can control just about every imaginable parameter, I should be able to do some excellent stuff.. :)

Isaac_Brody
12-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Well it certainly makes pretty pictures. If someone can jerryrig a workflow together this would be a cost effective Andromeda/Hydra successor.

Go Anhar go. :)

Hunter Hampton
12-07-2007, 09:27 PM
I am going for it! I will post my results in a few weeks after i get the camera. Wish me luck!

Kholi
12-07-2007, 09:46 PM
Woot! Go hunter!

Hunter Hampton
12-07-2007, 10:26 PM
Ha! I did this kind of thing before with a usb2.0 camera and it was a waste of money. BUT! I have a good feeling about this camera and company though! 12-bit 1080/24p @ 75/MBps here I come!.... I guess I am going to need a new computer and raid set-up. ouch. dont tell my wife yet.

Neil Burner
12-07-2007, 11:13 PM
good luck guys looking forward to the results!

Anhar Miah
12-08-2007, 06:52 AM
Hey hunter, when you get your camera head, would you mind doing the beta testing for any camera software that I might program? (that I may produce, depending on how much spare time I have)

anthom
12-08-2007, 08:53 AM
hey Anhar,
i would really apreciate it if u program a software for that camera!
i would also pay for it! or beta test it...
but i need to see some more previews before ill buy the sumix.

Hunter Hampton
12-08-2007, 10:18 AM
Anhar-

Sure thing! I allready know there will be issues with the current software, it isnt really made for a cinematographer, its made for industrial applications. A siliconDVR type interface would rock for this camera (big buttons for touch screen lcd). Top features for new software would be...

1. Metadata with timecode

2. Exposure conversion for shutter angles isntead of miliseconds(like 180degree shutter at 24p = 1/48sec= 20.8333333 milliseconds

3. Some fast high-quality debayering for avi creation

4. This camera really needs new software to operate on a RTOS because the framerate will vary 2-3% (so sumix tells me) because it runs through windowsXP which isnt a RTOS...

I will let you guys know when I recive the camera (hopefully in the next month or so)

Glad to be a camera guniea pig,

-hunter

Anhar Miah
12-08-2007, 04:28 PM
Yes the Interface is going to be very important indeed, so feedback is totally critical in that regard.

If you could post a screenshot of that SiliconDVR app, I may be able to program it to be very close.

I was looking at some of the program sample, seems fairly straighforward, though I really will not know untill I get stuck in.

As for the debayering, this may need to be done offline so to speak, I doubt that I could write a complete debayering code from scratch.

I read the PDFs but it doesn't mention anything about what format the video stream is saved as,

I think you can even get the non decimated (10 bit) monochrome images straight from the cam head and then of course do what ever processing you want after wards.

My initial idea for the work flow might go something like this:

Capture and control (Gamma, Brightness, Contrast, Gain, etc) in real time (with preview, I think the API lets you do this).

Then you "Develop" your raw files ala Film style.

I have never heard of RTOS, I'm guessing it stands for Real Time operating system, but I assumed the clock frequency runs inside the camera head, and not from the PC? I assumed that the PC merely selected the frequency, (which reminds me, the API lets you change that too, which affects framefrate, how about smooth overcranking and undercranking!!)

Anyways, I must stress that I can not gurantee anything (I am currently doing my masters :) ), but I most certainly will attempt it. I think the biggest limitation will be the API, simply put I will not be able to anything that is not in the API.

Also if anyone does buy the camera I think they include the full SDKs, if I could have access to the SDKs (not sure about copy rights, unless you "hire" me as your "virtual Program developer" , of course my virtual fee would be $Free :) )

hope to hear from you guys

Anhar

anthom
12-09-2007, 02:14 AM
have u already seen those videos of the si2k app?

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Tutorials/SiliconDVR_Overview.html

(i liked the hotspot regions inside the preview picture, i think this
is a comfortable handling)

other features i would suggest:

1.) a mode that shows when pixels have 0 luminance they are black,
when they clip they are red.

2.) a mode that shows when pixels are in focus they are shown in red,
other pixels out of focus in a other neutral color.

3.) a zoom function

4.) a full screen preview mode

5.) guides for different aspect ratios (eg cinema scope,...)

6.) set white / set black point with help of a spot meter

7.) a color correction lookuptable, that creates non-destructive color meta data.
and an on/off toggle for those settings, that u can switch between
the raw file and the look u created.


i study media design, i could help u with the design of the different menus,
i could send u the photoshop files, if this would help u a little bit.
for this i need sum scribbles how the app is supposed to look like and
what functions itll have.

Hunter Hampton
12-09-2007, 11:35 AM
Yes. I meant real-time operating system. The camera is not synced from the camera head, it comes through the processing on the computer so frame rates like 23.98 are currently not possible. The silicon2k must have some sort of sync in the camera head.

Anhar Miah
12-09-2007, 04:58 PM
hmm, your probably right,

I remember part of the code in one of the API examples I was looking at yesterday, they actually "set" the frequency from the code, so I can't see why you would not be able to set it to get the exact frame rate (so long as the cam head supports it), but after settting the freq, I'm not entirly sure how you would get the PC controlling the clock cycles.

Of course if the Sumix guys have advised on using a RTOS, they should know :)

The only other way I can think that you may get sync issues is if during actual stream recording you get stream drop outs, maybe thats where sync issues may come in..

Anyways its all theory, the actual practical is what I'm interested in :)

Anhar Miah
12-15-2007, 07:48 AM
Ok, the Initial GUI is being developed, this is just the GUI, no working engines yet:

The Splash Screen:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Anhar/Splash_HDX_beta_screenshot.jpg

The Main Application:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Anhar/HDV_mainScreen_beta.jpg

moviemaker999
12-16-2007, 10:09 AM
keep up the good work, were counting on you

anthom
12-16-2007, 10:21 AM
looks really cool, i appreciate your work

Anhar Miah
12-16-2007, 02:39 PM
Slight Update:

* Hard Drive Meter and HD space information now working
* Safe Frame Guides working, you can toggle on/ off

Next things to do:

* Add WAV (uncompressed recording capabilities) with compression settings

Screen Shot Progress:


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Anhar/HDX_prg1.jpg

I'll update whenever any new progress is made. I found some code that allows AVI capture (from any video card installed on your machine, I'm thinking a HDX lite version could be useful, for anyone who just wants to connect to a regular SD camera and record)

Anhar Miah
12-16-2007, 07:43 PM
UPDATE:

* Direct Sound Recording (PC microphone input) is working, need to add user sound settings.

BUT the VU sound meter is not working, not sure why, spent a few hours trying to get it too work, but no success, I'm sure its possible though.

Next Things to do:

* Boring File Structure stuff

IMPORTANT Phase:
* Camera detection and infomation Dump
* Camera Connection
* Video Recording
* Camera Functions

The Important Phase, is when I'm going to code "blind" as in can't really test it because I don't have a camera ! so thats when the beta will be sent out, so people can connect and test it on there cameras.

I'm going to email the SUMIX guys, to make sure I'm using the right ActiveX component, it seems to be for that its for the SUMIX 150.

shijan
12-17-2007, 09:19 PM
in the february we plane to make a short documentaly video. and i planed to purchase the sumix camera because our budget is very small. if it will be done we can be tested this gui vith hardware.
but on the dvinfo forum one of creators of sumix told that the sensor with 2/3" format will be only available end of 2008.is it truth or i read something wrong? ....because english is not my native language

Anhar Miah
12-18-2007, 06:46 AM
As far as I understand it, there is two versions:

(1) SUMIX 12A12M (this one is Monochrome, Black and White video)

(2) SUMIX 12A12C (this one is Colour video)

and according to the SUMIX website:

http://www.sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2m/smx-12a2c.html

It is specified as 2/3" Image sensor, now for sales availablity you need to call them and ask, I assume it is already available for sale since I have not seen any mention of any release date.

Please do not think that I will have a working application, I may have one but this is NOT guranteeded, please have alternative arrangements set out.

Kholi
01-02-2008, 04:37 PM
Any other info on this? Did Hunter get his?

Anhar Miah
01-02-2008, 04:45 PM
Well as for my end:

Untill I can get a hold of the API SDK and ActiveX for this camera I can not finnish the application, if you want to disscuss this issue then PM me.

shijan
01-03-2008, 08:22 AM
finally i connect to guys from sumix/ they told me that now they are tested the camera and it will be available for sale in near future...so keep waiting.

--- funny thing - it happend that i live very near the place, vhere they manufactured the cameras)), and from here they traveled to their main office. so i think when camera will be ready maybe i have a nice chance to be in the first line of customers

shijan
01-03-2008, 09:01 AM
maybe this interface can help you something with your recearch http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SiliconDVR_Interface.html
all very clear and usable..

Anhar Miah
01-10-2008, 12:34 PM
Hello shijan, its already being developed to be similar to the SI interface :)

rockoblm
02-07-2008, 01:39 PM
Any new developments with this? Has anyone received a camera from SUMIX?

Gordon JL
03-24-2008, 02:12 AM
Any news on this?

Neil Burner
04-25-2008, 09:35 AM
anyone?

Justin Bendo
05-01-2008, 09:55 AM
here is a free demosaicing filter for VirtualDub;

http://www.dei.unipd.it/~menond/pub/dfapd/dfapd.html
http://www.dei.unipd.it/~ballanlu/demo.html



or, here is a commercial library;
http://www.imagingcontrol.com/support/documentation/class/tech_debayering.htm

and some additional info;
http://www.theimagingsourceforums.com/showthread.php?t=318617

Hunter Hampton
05-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I was going to order one, but I got something else instead.

Gordon JL
05-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Forget about this, if you guys can wait and are willing to pay a little bit more for a lot more, keep a look out for the RED Scarlet in early 2009 (www.red.com).

Bobedot
05-12-2008, 03:56 PM
Except that Scarlet will not have interchangeable lenses.

Kholi
05-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Forget about this, if you guys can wait and are willing to pay a little bit more for a lot more, keep a look out for the RED Scarlet in early 2009 (www.red.com (http://www.red.com)).

* Dates, Prices, everything subject to change. Count on it.

Fliques Osman
05-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Any one got one?

Gordon JL
05-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Interchangeable are not that big a deal to me. It won't happen, as it's been shot down by Jim himself, and the costs of getting 16mm lenses aren't worth it. There are adapters planned.

Kohli; if you honestly cannot wait, go ahead and get a security cam that costs just as much approx. The important features of Scarlet likely won't change much for the worse. If you're really desperate, go for the SMX; I personally think it's much smarter to get something to hold you over temporarily, and get the Scarlet later. Patience is a virtue; I can't imagine anyone would need a camera so bad, they'd get the SMX when the Scarlet's on the horizon (you always have other cams to hold you over. Go rent one even). Boggles my mind.

Daniel L.
07-16-2008, 12:51 AM
I own a SMX-12A2C camera. I have been working with it for quite some time, collaborating with companies trying to get a good solution out there.

This camera is far from a security camera. Its designed for cinema applications, and uses a sensor very similar to the one in the Silicon Imaging 2K cameras. The images it produces look almost identical... The Sumix camera is still under development, the software is not quite there yet, and Sumix is refining the hardware and color filters.

Here is a quick grab from a test I shot the other day. I forgot to white balance! So colors are going to be a little odd...
http://dreamstonestudios.com/delete/frame_lens2.jpg

A bit of a boost in saturation...
http://dreamstonestudios.com/delete/FRAME_632.jpg

Its also a bit blurry, shot with a television lens. I'm working on getting my hands on a c-mount HD lens.

There are some big differences between the Scarlet camera and this one which helps me justify the expense. I'm still looking forward to Scarlet, but this camera can offer things that Scarlet cannot. Its also the other way around too! Both have advantages and disadvantages, and it just comes down to your shooting style and expectations.

Kholi
07-16-2008, 07:46 PM
Interchangeable are not that big a deal to me. It won't happen, as it's been shot down by Jim himself, and the costs of getting 16mm lenses aren't worth it. There are adapters planned.

Kohli; if you honestly cannot wait, go ahead and get a security cam that costs just as much approx. The important features of Scarlet likely won't change much for the worse. If you're really desperate, go for the SMX; I personally think it's much smarter to get something to hold you over temporarily, and get the Scarlet later. Patience is a virtue; I can't imagine anyone would need a camera so bad, they'd get the SMX when the Scarlet's on the horizon (you always have other cams to hold you over. Go rent one even). Boggles my mind.

Old post, but, I could really care less about SCARLET. It's vaporware until it comes out. They're saying 2009, Sounds like 2011 to me. :B And, don't label me a RED hater, I use it plenty.

SMX footages please.

Neil Burner
07-17-2008, 11:50 AM
Yes I too would like to see some footage if possible...

Jared Meyer
07-17-2008, 04:17 PM
Old post, but, I could really care less about SCARLET. It's vaporware until it comes out. They're saying 2009, Sounds like 2011 to me. :B And, don't label me a RED hater, I use it plenty.

SMX footages please.

My sentiments exactly. Scarlet is so far off it's not possible for me to get excited about it.

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 01:05 PM
The scarlet has two problems against the Sumix. The scarlet is limited to f2.8 lenses. 2/3" f2.8 shallow DOF is equivalent to 1/3" f1.4 DOF, while the Sumix can get full 2/3" f1.4 DOF shallow DOF. Then, the scarlet will be two stops slower in light gathering with the fixed f2.8 lenses compared to f1.4 and even slower due to the larger number of smaller pixels. That's about 3 stops of light gathering difference. The quantum efficiency of Sumix is already very good, so no real room for improvement there. I believe that being CMOS and using fixed f2.8 lens the scarlet will be equivalent to consumer level 1/3" camcorders in DOF and sensitivity until they decide the change the lens maximum aperture.

Isaac_Brody
08-01-2008, 04:32 PM
What lens are you planning to use with the Sumix? Are you aware of how expensive 2/3 HD lenses are? You can't use any of your 35mm still lenses without suffering from the crop factor. I would trust the attached Scarlet lens instead of any second hand lens you throw on the Sumix.


I believe that being CMOS and using fixed f2.8 lens the scarlet will be equivalent to consumer level 1/3" camcorders in DOF and sensitivity until they decide the change the lens maximum aperture.

This is incorrect. 2/3 chip will yield a significantly shallower depth of field than a 1/3 camcorder. And talking about the sensitivity is moot at this point. Red One allows you to adjust iso, and I've seen promising results from 800 iso red footage. If Scarlet allows iso adjustments then this will be much more versatile than the Sumix.

What's the Sumix available workflow? Is there a usable post solution available?

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 06:02 PM
What lens are you planning to use with the Sumix? Are you aware of how expensive 2/3 HD lenses are? You can't use any of your 35mm still lenses without suffering from the crop factor. I would trust the attached Scarlet lens instead of any second hand lens you throw on the Sumix.

This is incorrect. 2/3 chip will yield a significantly shallower depth of field than a 1/3 camcorder. And talking about the sensitivity is moot at this point. Red One allows you to adjust iso, and I've seen promising results from 800 iso red footage. If Scarlet allows iso adjustments then this will be much more versatile than the Sumix.

What's the Sumix available workflow? Is there a usable post solution available?

The Sumix has got a 5um pixel I believe. Not much smaller than the pixel of a modern dSLR. It can take many slr lenses with good results for telephoto and upwards. The crop factor compared to Red or super 35 is 2.5x. Not especially limiting for telephoto.

For 2/3" you can get megpixels primes for below 100 euro each. These leses have much better optical quality than a camcorder zoom such as those bundled with camcorders below 10,000 euro, due to the simple design required on a prime lense. And you can cover the full range with f1.4 lenses. The better cctv lenses will work fine at 5um. It's not a very small pixel size.

About me being incorrect about DOF, I believe you simply don't understand DOF and how it works with sensor size and absolute and relative aperture. Please check your facts and make sure you fully understad the issue before calling someone incorrect. I will try to explain. Reducing the size of the sensor and reducing the relative aperture by the same ammount gives you identical DOF because the important parameter is absolute aperture size. It's easy to test if you have lenses or a good DOF calculator.

1/3" f1.4 = 2/3" f2.8 = super35 f7.0 = full frame still film camera f10.5

As simple as that. The 2/3" f2.8 lens will give you 1/3" f1.4 results and the advantage of the 4x larger in area sensor is lost in the 4 times slower f2.8 (vs f1.4) compared to the 1/3" camera.

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 06:04 PM
Also, talking about sensitivity is not moot, because there is a 100% limit in light gathering for each pixel. If you believe the 2/3" sensor will exceed physical reality by a factor of 4 or 6, that's your problem and being an engineer, I don't want want to discuss it further.

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 06:23 PM
A simple explanation on light gathering:

Camera A with proven high quantum efficiency sensor technology: 2/3" f1.4 lens, 1920x1080 pixel=2073600pixels

Camera B with unknown sensor technology: 2/3" f2.8 lens, about 3072x1728=5308516pixels

Both have the same 2/3" area so light gathering per pixel in camera B with its fixed f2.8 is 5308516/2073600*(f2.8/f1.4)^2=10.2 inferior if we ignore quantum efficiency.

So the pixels on the scarlet get less than 1/10 the light per pixel. That's more than 3 stops. The Sumix is already operating on a very good quantum efficiency, close to the limit for CMOS techology really, so I predict with this solid and simple calculation the Scarlet will be 3 stops slower than the Sumix with f1.4 lenses. Scarlet could cover the distance by having zero read noise, unlimited dynamic range, or quantum efficiency of 800% or 1000%. This is technically impossible since 100% is an actual physical limit for these technologies.

There is no reason to ignore physics just because Sumix do not have a good marketing department.

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 07:02 PM
Dpreview DOF calculator results, it doesn't have the precise apertures and focal lenghts I needed and relates to slighly narrower 1/3" sensors (photographic aspect ones) but I got close:

1/3"35mm f1.4 from 2m, near sharp 1.980 far sharp 2.021
2/3" 70mm f2.8 from 2m, near sharp 1.982 far sharp 2.018
crop factor slr 200mm f8 from 2m, near sharp 1.984 far sharp 2.016
full frame slr 300mm f11 from 2m, near sharp 1.986 far sharp 2.014

Ignoring calculation errors of the extreme scenario, all have similar dof despites the small differences in focal lenght and aperture compared to my results on the previous post and provide identical angle of view and coverage. Those are practically identical imaging systems from a physics point of view, but the smaller sensors get a light gathering advantage when achieving identical results. More is not always better for various practical reasons including sensitivity. You need to take into account pixel quantum effiency and number of pixels (pixel area). Then there is the out of focus character and quality issue, but that's not down to absolute physics and simple calculations just yet:)

This method can be used to compare any two cameras with different aperture and sensor size. Just multiply relative aperture by sensor size ratio to get the identical dof info.

Otis Grapsas
08-01-2008, 08:09 PM
A comparison of two sensors, one 1.6x larger than the other. Comparing 1/3 to 2/3" which is 2.0x larger does not change anything.

full frame 50mm 2.2
vs 1.6x crop factor 35mm f1.4

http://bp3.blogger.com/_LMV40M_lPGA/R3MEFbN1BGI/AAAAAAAAACk/kLUJ3iUqYe4/s1600-h/5035-full.jpg

another example:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_LMV40M_lPGA/R3MP2LN1BJI/AAAAAAAAAC8/mTrqAOCZO2o/s1600-h/13585blur.jpg

So, by using 1.6x smaller focal lenght and 1.6x smaller relative aperture, you get identical results. This proves the Scarlet 2/3" f2.8 will get 1/3" f1.4 results in shallow DOF.

Isaac_Brody
08-02-2008, 12:11 PM
Alright, I learn something new everyday. :)

But what's the workflow for this? Are you tethered to a macbook/pc? How practical is this? Can you shoot in uncontrolled settings? Or is this strictly useful for a studio situation and not clients? And where can one get these "megpixels primes."

I'm very curious about what kind of shooting people are accomplishing with this.

Otis Grapsas
08-02-2008, 01:11 PM
I haven't got a Sumix but I have used boards that use the same sensor and other cameras of the type and I'm building a camcorder that can be made compatible with this head although it is more oriented on CCD solutions.

Sumix takes a regular pc to work, just like the Silicon Imaging Mini because you need storage monitoring and control which a camera like this lacks, but this doesn't mean it has to be big or use too much energy. It's just not practical at this time for Sumix. but we can actually get smaller form factors compared to the professional camcorders of the same sensor size. The Silicon Imaging original camera was based on a head similar to the Sumix. Sumix is not ready for production because it lacks many features at this time such as a color matrix for accuracy and an organised workflow, but we are not far from puting these cameras in a user friendly production ready camcorder. Although it's not something you would get to shoot weddings with, it is similar in practically or better compared to recording systems of the same quality and far more affordable, so it will do the job for feature lenght filmmaking.

The megapixel primes come at 2/3" and 1" formats and are fully manual. In machine vision and control, very high optical quality corner to corner is required because algorithms are applied on the video to detect precise mechanical features. Being primes, the lenses are very economical when they do not come with motors. So these lenses come with modern design, but you have to choose a lens class that fits the pixel size. For a 2megapixel camera like the Sumix you need at least 1.5megapixel 2/3" lenses, preferably 5 megapixel lenses such as the Fujinon 2/3" 5 Megapixel Series at this page:

http://www.1stvision.com/lens/megapixellenses.htm

Since these cameras are single sensor, they do not require 3ccd design (unlike B4 camcorders), they can use any 16mm and super 16mm lenses with simple non optical adapters.

Isaac_Brody
08-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Interesting lenses, any idea on price? I checked the site and can't find any key to prices.

Is your camcorder build for the Sumix in prototype mode already? Are you shooting with it and getting good results?

Otis Grapsas
08-02-2008, 03:03 PM
http://www.rmassa.com/lenses.htm

A disadvantage of these lenses over cine 16mm lenses is that the barrel is quite small, some are as small as the Bolex prime lenses. The Fujinon ones are larger and have barrels of 50mm so they are on the limit of being usable with follow focus units. The advantage is that they have excellent corner to corner resolution even wide open at very high MTF.

I did the first working prototype in december and posted images and some videos. It is a 2/3" 768p ccd model. I have also tried an 1" 1920x1080 ccd with it. I have tried the sensor that is used on the Sumix on an implementation from another manufacturer. The resolution and sensitivity is ok but it wasn't up to ccd saturation without an agressive color matrix and it comes with rolling shutter and inferior low light compared to ccd. I am considering Sumix 2/3" as a more affordable alternative for those who do not need CCD performance, so it might get to be in our entry level model. Generally I'm not a big fan of CMOS although it is becoming more acceptable today that manufacturers are abandoning ccd in anything but their most professional camcorders in order to reduce cost.

Isaac_Brody
08-02-2008, 09:07 PM
Hey,

So I'm still not sure what you're recording to? Is your prototype a self enclosed computer for recording?

Can I see footage links for your prototype?

dan
08-02-2008, 09:34 PM
Played with those lenses too. They are nice and sharp (very close focusing distance) but the sensor size( 2/3") comes with the known look (I am reffering to the DOF). The focus is precise but those lenses are made with a certain purpose in mind (and they deliver!) but for constant back and forth..... as required in cinematography....I didn't like them all that much (kind'a stiff)

Otis Grapsas
08-02-2008, 09:45 PM
The whole system is based on a battery powered computer and records in removable 2.5" media, based on solid state or hard disk, but it's really open to practically anything that can connect to SATA or GigE. Computers these days are not what they used to be. My present prototype is smaller than an F900, consumes less power and has similar weight:)

Clips from the 2/3" model on the January prototype. It was a simple straight gamma and fully uncorrected at that time, now it's an advanced film response model with a proper color matrix. About 2 stops extra dynamic range.

http://www.archive.org/download/Extinq/extinq.wmv
Lit by two tiny candles, one flickering in the process.

http://www.archive.org/download/3CandlesToDarkness/CandlesToDarkness.wmv
Demonstrating black purity.

http://www.archive.org/download/TwoBottlesInAndOutOfFocus/bottlesinoutoffocus.wmv
Pulling focus on a cheap cctv lens, lit on available light (a single 60watt incadescent). I think I got video levels wrong on the export, so it clipped shadows and highlights.

Daniel L.
08-06-2008, 08:46 AM
The Sumix camera does require a computer for operation, similar to the SI-2K Mini. I built a prototype system with a small computer on rails with the camera & a 7" touch screen. It was all pretty compact, about 12 inches long and weighed ~7lb without batteries.

It was fully contained, and more or less point and shoot. I was able to walk around with it, take it outside, and the only setup was putting it on a tripod.

Sumix does have plans for a standalone camera, but I have no idea of what kind of time frame. I'm waiting on updated software myself, as well as a new color filter for my camera. Should not be too long now.

Right now, with the incorrect filter, I'm losing a lot of color information. My images are desaturated, and far from what they should look like. Nevertheless, here are some more recent stills I took a few weeks back.

http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/delete/boat1.jpg
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/delete/boat2.jpg

I believe the lens was a 50mm Minolta, set at f/4. It was hot glued onto a C-Mount -> Canon FD converter. (I had no canon lenses to use at the time)

I don't have any videos to share at the moment.

lewkmiller
01-19-2010, 10:17 AM
I have been looking, but can not find a .raw file from the sumix camera. I would like to download a sample to see the process of using a raw file. can anyone hook me up?

Jay Birch
01-24-2010, 04:31 AM
Would this camera work with a fast laptop? Maybe even a super fast tablet that could act as a monitor as well as capture device?

j
01-24-2010, 09:57 AM
> I believe the lens was a 50mm Minolta, set at f/4.
> It was hot glued onto a C-Mount -> Canon FD converter.

Awesome. Do you have pics of that?

zcream
02-18-2010, 05:22 PM
Interested how this camera faded out...

Otis Grapsas
02-19-2010, 02:06 AM
Interested how this camera faded out...

The problem with small companies that already have other products on the market is that they never focus and invest enough time. Integration of a full system is a full time job for a small team of engineers for a minimum of 2 years. It's quite an investment in time and money and it's hard to even consider it when you are already busy with other products. In any case, you can't expect the user to handle integration, the user expects a turnkey system. Anything less is simply not worth the investment in time.

camaramann
09-10-2010, 09:33 AM
They have a plenty of camera troubles probably due to basic technology lacks.
The rumor said their trouble rate is very closed to 30%, some tech said.
Do not use for your :zombie_smiley:business.
http://www.qtl.co.il/img/copy.pnghttp://www.google.com/favicon.ico (http://www.google.com/search?q=deficits.%20Some%20USB%20cameras%20are%20 easily%20down%20at%20the%20connection%20to%20PC,%2 0the%20trouble%20rate%20would%20be%20almost%2040%2 5%20)http://www.qtl.co.il/img/trans.png