Editing demands -xdcam ex format?

[Reflex Films]

Obviously sony have done some great work compressing all the amazing detail we are hearing about , contrast etc into 35mbs! Thats great for straight play back - basic cut and edits.

I have had some bad experiences editing HDV (the interframe compression was causing all sorts of undesireable jumps and duplicated frames on cuts and dissolves - i suspect i was cutting on interframe points and throwing the compression algorithm out - i may be wrong here) in Final cut

My suspiscion is that Surely this compressed format will be clunky to edit as the computer obviously has to work very hard to extract all the info / modify and recompress as i force my footage to do crazy things- my editing is very intense - a 2 sec clip is a long take for me , lots of dissolves, time remaps, multi screen

Relative to editing SD, DV PRO 50, DVCPROHD 100 formats - should i expect things to slow to a crawl when i start getting into funky editing concepts on my 2 year old g5 Power pc mac ? Will my dissolves and cuts all be clean as they are with sd and DVC Pro formats. Editing is more han half of what i do so this is a critical question for me!

[Stevet]

As most, no way will I stay in the native format during edit. I'll be going to Cineform. This is true with just about anything I capture.

[Reflex Films]

Please forgive my ignorance at this level- I'm a bit of a novice here . . i come from HDV / SD world for the last 4 years- And have always edited natively.

So i take it that editing on an xdcam ex 35mbs timeline would be madness?

In FCP what is the best "temporary (offline?) editing format" after capture to work in ? I generally end up going to h.264 web export 1000 - 1500 kbs, DVD and eventually some sort of HD dvd format. Looking forward to being able to take advantage of the contrast and detail as well as long recording times on card .

[Stevet]

Converting to an intermediate format such as Cineform will allow more renders with less degradation. It also coverts to 4:2:2 which will allow better color grading in post.
The 4::2:2 will not improve the color sampling, it just will offer better grading in post.
http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDVQualityAnalysis051011/HDVQualityAnalysis051011.htm

[Reflex Films]

Thanks steve,

appreciate you sharing what you probably think i should already know..

I can see the benefits of laying down the money for it. Will a relatively dated system like mine handle the intermediate codec relatively easily( like SD , DVC pro 50 / 100 timelines on my 18 month old power pc mac - both give real time previews for most edits without having to render, when renders are required they are relatively quick - i do alot of "trial and error rendering" on tricky edits!)

for the short term Is there an intermediate codec within FCP that can be used for acceptable results? Or is cineform the industry standard intermediate codec for HDV, xdcam ex that most of you are using ..

[Stevet]

I don't own a mac, so I will let the Mac guys steer you the correct direction.

[Barry_Green]

Doesn't FCP include the Apple Intermediate Codec? It's designed to do the same kind of thing. Or you could transcode to ProRes 422...

[Elton]

ProRes is basically the CineForm equivalent for FCP. It's an excellent intermediate to work with and is a "blessed" codec that also works great with older G5 systems.

I'm not sure if the new CineForm for Mac is quite as fast to render, and I'm pretty sure it only works on MacIntel systems.

Reflex, with you're kind of heavy duty editing I'd transcode everything to ProRes.

[MichaelS]

Hi,

I am also interested in purchsing a XDCAM EX.

Are there yet any experiences/Know How, how to directly import EX footage in PPro?

With a rather new Intel PC (2006 version 2,3 GHz Core 2 Due, 2 GB Ram) is it better to edit natively or us a intermediate Codec (sufficient one included in PPro CS 3)??

regards,

Michael

[Reflex Films]

Elton,

Thanks for the info - looks like pro res is the go - great to hear that my G5 will handle it! - i'll be on that machine for qanother year till my lease runs out!

for thos experienced at transcoding on MAc -As a rough percentage how much would a captured xd cam ex (35 mbs) 20 gb project grow once i have transcoded it to pro res ? Any ideas on how long that process takes (hours? days?)

[Elton]

My own conversions from XDCAM 35mbs to basic ProRes take a 24p 1080 to about 85-90 mbs. I can't see any loss. 30 fps goes to about 110-120 mbs.

10bit ProRes HQ 1080 24p is about 190 mbs and 30 fps is almost 245 mbs.

Quite a jump for 10 bit but basic ProRes will only enlarge the file size 3-4x from XDCAM HQ.

[Reflex Films]

Just noticed the stats for capturing xdcam ex footage via Sony's file browser software - minimum porcessor mentioned was intel core duo - does that mean i cant capture the footage and i'm out of the picture with a 20 month old Power pc chipped Power mac?

[ffaf07]

So if Final Cut's new ProRes 422 can convert the Sony native files into a 10bit codec, with 4:2:2 colorspace (I know the original sampling doesn't improve, though more freedom is available in color grading), and 1920 x 1080 resolution, then I wouldn't need to invest in NEO HD for editing with FCP on an Intel Mac?

[philip bloom]

would i ever need to use prores HQ instead of prores with the xdcam ex. Unnecessary?

[boredoftherings]

I have an 8-core mac pro with with 8 gbs of ram. Will I be able to edit 35mbs ex1 footage natively, or will I have to convert it? If I have to convert it, what codec will cause the least degradation of the video? Is there a lossless codec I can use? I want the best possible images.

[Elton]

would i ever need to use prores HQ instead of prores with the xdcam ex. Unnecessary?

I would say *mostly unnecessary*. 10 bit ProRes HQ does help to get that extra 5-10% of quality when you do heavy grading. It can make a difference in some areas but can be overkill if you're not doing anything more than going to DVD or the web.

[Elton]

I have an 8-core mac pro with with 8 gbs of ram. Will I be able to edit 35mbs ex1 footage natively, or will I have to convert it?

I edit natively with no problems on a nearly 3 year old G5 dual 2.7. Now, if you're edits are extremely fx intensive within FCP, than I would move to ProRes and make sure you have at least a 2 drive SATA RAID if you want noticeably better performance.


If I have to convert it, what codec will cause the least degradation of the video? Is there a lossless codec I can use? I want the best possible images.

It's so tough to detect actual degradation with ProRes, but if you're going to possibly go through multiple generations of renders on the same material it makes sense to go to a truly lossless codec. I use the SheerVideo codec from bitjazz. www.bitjazz.com--it's absolutely pristine and is especially good at handling YUV to RGB colorspace conversions, which can become an issue in post.

[ffaf07]

Can you edit using the native .mp4 files you filmed with the camera, which would eventually be exported as a TIFF sequence, without color correction?

Color correction would be done in a professional post house.

In that case, if all the original files were safely backed up, I would edit without any losses right?

Am I missing something? I don't know much about the technical side of importing/editing

[Brett Clements]

I'm running FCP 6.02 and am about to take delivery of this XDCAM. Has anybody had any dramas with this combination; I'm aiming to injest 1080P.

[cinephil]

I'm running FCP 6.02 and am about to take delivery of this XDCAM. Has anybody had any dramas with this combination; I'm aiming to injest 1080P.

I am interested in this also. Especially ingesting to an older laptop trough usb 2.0
(ppc 1.67 running Os 10.4.11 with 2 Gb off ram)

Thanx for anybody who can enlighten me.

[Reflex Films]

I have recently been doing some projects transcoding from HDV to pro res on import. Running FCS 2 and a Dual G5 Power PC G5 (2 gb ram)

To be honest its not that great -glitches on import cause FCp to crash regularly - i am constantly saving and rebooting.

While i know it can be hard to say whats causing this I suspect the HDV codec (and porbably its 35 mbs variant) really prefers a grunty machine to handle it - even when transcoded to hi res i am getting random crashes! I suspect Dv (works great for me), DVC Pro 50 and DVC pro hD 100 are far more robust codecs... if thaqts the right word to use- even if you do suffer reduced recording time to P2 cards..

Have been sitting on the fence for a while - the whole issue is making me reconsider a XD cam ex purchase -

FWIW- maybe the HVX 202 is a better option if you are locked in to editing system for the next year or so

(i cant afford to get a new edit suite AND Camera / crd combo)

If anyone has had good experiences on older systems- I'm happy to be proven wrong on this one!

[Reflex Films]

Just finished anoterh frustratingly slow edit session - 3 more crashes - usually casued by a "glitchy clip" (something gone wrong in transcode?) which casues fcs 2 to fall over - i have auto save set to go every 5 minutes!

Or maybe its my "older" system struggling with pro res? - i really dont know! And its a mission to find the cause.

All i do know is that shooting in DV(HDV stepped to DV on capture - via in camera conversion) has been trouble free and allows me to get on with the job of shooting , editing and supplying content to my clients - I know some people have had success with it - but HDV - has been nothing but a time sponging handbrake for me . P2 is looking more attractive all the time...

[cckid]

Anyone had any real life experience editing and doing basic color correction in xdcam ex format....I had sony hdv didn't like it coz of the format....now I have p2 hvx200 and I love the editing process because I am staying in the same format from start to finish on the macbook pro 2,4ghz as well on the macintel 2,66ghz....can I expect to edit in xdcam ex, have dissolves, freeze frames and similar without transcoding to pro res??....if anyone knows please let me know...

Best regards

cckid

www.honeymoonthemovie.net

[cinephil]

I just updated my 'old' Dual G5 (2Ghz / 1.5 ram) to Leopard and am now installing
FCP 6. Tomorrow I am shooting with the EX.

More news about workflow tomorrow evening or friday.

Cheers

[Elton]

Reflex,

I think you're system may be just a little bit pokey for decent HDV/XDCAM performance. Also, for ProRes I'm sure it could really benefit from a minimum of 2 drive SATA raid. You can get away with single drives but ProRes will be more efficient in timeline scrubbing and rendering from a decent raid setup.

Also, consider a KonaLH. It's helped my system's performance a great deal.

[Racker99]

Hi Elton / Reflex,

I think I'm in a similar boat to you. I have a Dual Proc G5 (1.8Ghz) system with 5 Gigs of ram and FCP 6.02. I went and saw a road show of the Sony and came home with some test footage on an external hard drive. One of the downfalls I noticed was I was still trying to edit this footage while it was on a USB 2.0 external hard drive. That type of thing worked fine for my DV and even DVCPro50 SD footage, but seems to be an issue when trying to process full 1080P images. Strangely enough though editing some comparable HVX200 footage shot at 720P seemed to be smooth enough coming off the external HD.
To get around the data bandwidth I'm considering upgrading my internal SATA 160GB drives up to a pair of 750GB or 1 TB drives. Does anyone know for certain if my mac will have a problem if the drives are technically SATA II vs. SATA I? I would hope even if the Mac only supports SATA I that the drives will still work, just not as quickly.
Also any tips on migrating my current system drive to a new HDD?

[Elton]

Not sure, but I think the SATA II drives will work ok.

USB 2.0 isn't the ideal external drive interface because it's more CPU intensive than firewire or SATA and doesn't really achieve the theoretical 480 mbs anyway. ProRes HQ 1080 (about 30+ MBs) can almost saturate that bus so I wouldn't go that route for ProRes editing.

As far as migrating to a new hard drive--try Carbon Copy Cloner (google it) and move your system disk to a firewire external. I've done this before with a G5 and it worked fine, able to boot via firewire, but I'd recommend getting a SATA card and go with external SATA drives in a raid config for better overall system performance.

I bought my SATA card from macgurus.com

[Reflex Films]

Elton,

thanks for your feedback. I'll check the Kona option.

I gotta fess up - looked at my external media drive and its a usb 2 connection (works fine with DV) - could that be causing a bottleneck with the higher bandwidth requirements of apple pro res not coming off the drive quickly enough - ultimately causing Final Cut to fall over? - Does this sound like a typical mistake that crew make?

[naveenmedia]

I gotta fess up - looked at my external media drive and its a usb 2 connection (works fine with DV) - could that be causing a bottleneck with the higher bandwidth requirements of apple pro res not coming off the drive quickly enough - ultimately causing Final Cut to fall over? - Does this sound like a typical mistake that crew make?

Totally. I know some people do it, but general rule is NOT to edit via USB. FW800 is all I will edit with sans SCSI or internal SATA.

FW800 is only a $70 card, more than worth its money.

Naveen