Effective Communication

[Jim Brennan]

I was recently taken to task by some members in a thread about correcting someone's grammar. My post was not intended to insult, but to point out a common mistake. I apologize if my post was misconstrued.

There have been some comments thrown around here lately about how important (or unimportant), it is to use correct grammar/spelling/punctuation in your posts. While I understand that learning proper English is not the purpose of this forum (and if you search my posts, you will find many mistakes in all of those categories), I do feel it is important to review your post and at least try to get those things right if at all possible. Here's why:

1) We are (or aspire to be) professionals. Just about everyone who visits this board either makes their living doing what we talk about, or wants to. Part of that is presenting a professional image. A good command of the English language can't hurt.

2) Filmmaking is about communication both in front of and behind the camera. Whether you are writing a script, trying to evoke an emotion, or trying to explain to a gaffer how you want a scene lit, you need to be able to communicate. I'm not saying that if you don't spell well, you can't light a scene, but I think that taking responsibility to get your point across in the most effective way, either here or anywhere else goes a long way.

3) This is an educational (among other things) board. People come here for a lot of reasons. But one of the main ones is to learn. It's a lot easier to understand what someone is talking about if they are using the proper spelliing and punctuation. That's why they were invented.

4) Not everyone who comes hear speaks or reads English as their first language. Lots of people come here, and if I am having a hard time understanding what someone means when I speak English, I am certain that that difficulty is compounded for readers whose native language is different.

Many of you may disagree, and you are entitled to that opinion. I just think that these things matter. They aren't more important than the content of a post, but they do say something.

And for those members who chose to make comments to me in that now-locked thread, I just want to say that:

Yes, I am successful. I do this full time and I love it.
No, I never finished college, despite numerous attempts.
I'd love to visit your mansion the next time I am out there.

[HBlack]

I personally don't care how others spell, but I do know that your grammar and how you write makes an immediate impression on your those who read your post.

[Drew Ott]

Good post. To add onto #4, those who are trying to learn English may have more trouble learning the language if many of us do not speak it properly.

Just to try to give a gentle reminder to everybody, I'm going to list a grammar rule that is often misused.

1) It's vs. its - It's means it is. Its refers to possession.



...and just to make myself clear, I realize that many people don't speak English natively or occasionally have to make quick posts. I understand. Peoples' intelligence should not be judged by the way they type online, but by the context and maturity of their posts.

:)

[ryan brown]

I agree to a certain extent... BUT, not completely.

Yes, we should use punctuation and spell to the best of our abilities, but pointing out things like "it's vs. its", "there vs. their vs. they're", etc seems a bit to analytical to me. If I know what someone is talking about, I'm fine with it. If you don't use any punctuation or use words like "cuz" instead of "because", I'm not going to take the time to decipher it, and I may ask the poster to clean it up, or I'll move along to another thread.

I think people would take offense to correcting those little things, and I don't think they're in the wrong. We're not being graded here. If I was in a hurry and mistakenly used a wrong spelling/word, I think I'd also take offense to the nitpicking.

That being said, repeated internet "slang", or purposeful laziness in posts has no merit here.

My .02

[Zak Forsman]

grammar is an instrument I play by ear.

[Kirk Gillock]

All valid points and I agree. (BTW - You spelled "spelliing" wrong on #3. lol :) )

I'm a stickler (do they still use that word?) for English as well. After all, languages (and other things) are suppose to evolve, improve, and develop over time. But laziness (which is at the root of most Internet verbiage) never caused anything to improve. I mean, since we're only using 10% of our brains as it is, shouldn't we make every effort we can to develop our brains by NOT taking shortcuts? That way we can eventually reach our true potentials.

That's my .02 cents. Although the dollar is down right now so my two cents is worth far less.

:(

[Jim Brennan]

All valid points and I agree. (BTW - You spelled "spelliing" wrong on #3. lol :) )

:(

NITPICKER!!!!!:grin::grin:

[Jim Brennan]

For me it's not about making people feel bad, or correcting them for the sake of it. But "their" means something different than "they're" or "there". True, you can often figure out what someone means by the context, but you shouldn't have to. You wouldn't knowingly substitute "two" for "to", or "blew" for "blue" even though they sound the same, would you? We do these things because we feel rushed at times, but I believe that it usually happens because we honestly are unsure of what word to use. Sometimes they are typos, sometimes they aren't. For me, if I am using the wrong terminology I would want to be corrected...and I often am.

[Zak Forsman]

True, you can often figure out what someone means by the context, but you shouldn't have to. with all due respect to the english language, a misapplied iteration of there/their/they're or its/it's in an informal forum has never undercut my understanding of... anything. i've never needed to take even a moment to figure out the intent.

[J.R. Hudson]

Grammar. I can care less on a forum.

I type with such an ADD vibe. My typos are rampant. I can run into Outlook and do a spell check , but why ? I spent 7 years of my life ensuring my emails had the correct spelling and syntax in the real world of business. My cash cow client made me a $100.000 a year alone.

If I was sitting across a table having a beer with you, I'd merely be myself; langauge, humour and total lack of refinement.

People that grammar or spell check on forums are asshats. If you're judging people based on these matters, then you're an insecure idiot. If you take the time to be correct, then that is cool as well. That is your style; but judging others on this ?

Film is an art. My beef is the lack of artists on the site. I want to represent the world in indiependent film, but aside from a handful of badmotherfuckers, there aint much much depth here.

Skate videos, weddings, instructional films.... Does anyone care about Mis-en-scene ? Does anyone care about becoming a master ? I obsesss about theory, the line, the visual langauge .... I can count on one hand and a half the other users that do here.

Spell checks and grammar ? Save it for the other foums that don't matter.

[Capt Quirk]

Grammar. I can care less on a forum.

I type with such an ADD vibe. My typos are rampant. I can run into Outlook and do a spell check , but why ? I spent 7 years of my life ensuring my emails had the correct spelling and syntax in the real world of business. My cash cow client made me a $100.000 a year alone.

Spellcheck is built into Firefox :)

I agree that some posts I read give me a headache. While I am far from perfect when it comes to spelling and grammar, I do my best to insure proper usage, and avoid excessive use of profanity. I often fail, but I try.

[Jim Brennan]

I think that sitting across from someone, having a beer is a much more effective way to communicate than on a web board. This cyber world is rampant with miscommunication because there is so little context. We all know what we mean, so we assume others do as well. I'm not talking about spellcheck and typos. I'm talking about caring enough about what you are saying to say it in an effective and understandable manner.

And for what it's worth, I obsess over all of those things too John. I work at them everyday precisely because they are also effective communication. And that's what being a filmmaker is about for me.

Don't know if I am on that hand and a half of yours though. :beer:

[Zak Forsman]

Spellcheck is built into Firefox :)

I agree that some posts I read give me a headache. While I am far from perfect when it comes to spelling and grammar, I do my best to insure proper usage, and avoid excessive use of profanity. I often fail, but I try.
personally, i would have used 'ensure'.

[J.R. Hudson]

Good points

Como is the only one that gives me a headache due to his blatant lack of effort, but his enthusiasm is obvious so I chill usually

Jim, I know who obsesses over the art. It is most likely more than the handful in a half that I accuse of being here.

LOL Zak (Wiseass)

[Jim Brennan]

Well, then there's Oleg...:grin:

[Capt Quirk]

It's funny you should mention TheComo. I felt the same way- reading his posts was like rubbing broken glass in your eyes. Then I saw one of his recent posts, and it was well written. He's come a long way in a short time.

[Drew Ott]

It's funny you should mention TheComo. I felt the same way- reading his posts was like rubbing broken glass in your eyes. Then I saw one of his recent posts, and it was well written. He's come a long way in a short time.


Due to our nitpicking... :thumbsup:

I used to think he was a troll. He's certainly enthusiastic and is probably improving his skills at a faster rate than anybody else on this thread.

Regarding grammar and writing, it's really just how you were raised. My father told me I should be very conscious of my grammar, and it has stuck with me. There's a fine line between business and forums though, and I can certainly see the other side. It's all preference and no judgment should be passed for lack of proper English.

Ironically, I misspelled "judgment" on a school assignment and had points deducted (for those interested, I spelled it judgement; I believe this is the European way).

[Noel Evans]

I guess on a forum I try to articulate myself the way I want to present myself, and if others just mess around, make typos etc I dont (notice the lack of punctuation in dont) really care about that at all. If someone makes a completely incoherent post thats posed as a question I may ask to reconfirm, or just totally ignore it.

If someone is inclined to pick up others mistakes, well I pretty much ignore that also. Each to their own etc.

[Capt Quirk]

Ironically, I misspelled "judgment" on a school assignment and had points deducted (for those interested, I spelled it judgement; I believe this is the European way).
"That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!" :thumbsup:

This is more than "just a forum", it is a place where professionals gather to share knowledge, ideas, and network. Oh, and lots of bullshi**ing going on too ;) But how well do you receive somebody that doesn't make the effort to communicate clearly?

[Jim Brennan]

This is more than "just a forum", it is a place where professionals gather to share knowledge, ideas, and network. Oh, and lots of bullshi**ing going on too ;) But how well do you receive somebody that doesn't make the effort to communicate clearly?

I think that's why this gets under my skin. My expectations for this place are pretty high. And those expectations are often exceeded. Maybe I take it all too seriously sometimes, but when I am on this site I feel like I am around pros. I guess I expect everyone to act that way.

[ugafan]

i personally believe that u.s. americans don't use grammar cause some people in our nation don't have grammar books. and our education, like saudi arabia and the iraq, such as. i believe that our nation over here in the u.s. should help the u.s. and teach grammar to south africa and the iraq and asian countries so we can build better grammar.

[Kirk Gillock]

i personally believe that u.s. americans don't use grammar cause some people in our nation don't have grammar books. and our education, like saudi arabia and the iraq, such as. i believe that our nation over here in the u.s. should help the u.s. and teach grammar to south africa and the iraq and asian countries so we can build better grammar.

Oh man, that is hilarious. I can't stop laughing. :)

[Zak Forsman]

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[Drew Ott]

i personally believe that u.s. americans don't use grammar cause some people in our nation don't have grammar books. and our education, like saudi arabia and the iraq, such as. i believe that our nation over here in the u.s. should help the u.s. and teach grammar to south africa and the iraq and asian countries so we can build better grammar.

:laugh::cheesy:

Hilarious and much-needed.

[Grug]

J.R. you included the 'u' in humour... thank you.

[Kegan]

I'm guilty of nitpicking - I won't lie about it, nor am I perfect. I will make spelling errors, but if I catch it, I'm going to fix it. I used to think that the way a post is structured was just as important as the content in it, but now I believe otherwise.

I'm glad that Como was brought up in this thread, because I for one thought his posts were atrocious to read. I also saw some potential in him and started speaking to him...or trying to. At certain points in the conversation, I would just stop talking because I wouldn't understand a bloody word he was saying.

I met him yesterday and although he jokes around, he really does have the heart of a filmmaker. He's truly ambitious and while we were working on a 24 hour film challenge yesterday, the only thing he was focused on was getting the film done to the best of his ability.

Getting back to my original point of this post; I suppose I was being an "english snob", so to speak. I would criticize someone based on how they talked on an internet forum, when I really should have been focusing on the content of their posts.

Effective communication is one thing, but there really is no purpose of ignoring a message, simply because of how it is delivered.

-Kegan

[Jim Brennan]

i personally believe that u.s. americans don't use grammar cause some people in our nation don't have grammar books. and our education, like saudi arabia and the iraq, such as. i believe that our nation over here in the u.s. should help the u.s. and teach grammar to south africa and the iraq and asian countries so we can build better grammar.

Hey, are you the same guy who sent me that e-mail about my inheritance of a gratuitous fortune of money from the esteemed bank of Southern Liberia?






Because I'm still waiting for the damned check.





:undecided

[OldCorpse]

Film is an art. My beef is the lack of artists on the site. I want to represent the world in indiependent film, but aside from a handful of badmotherpoo pooers, there aint much much depth here.

Skate videos, weddings, instructional films.... Does anyone care about Mis-en-scene ? Does anyone care about becoming a master ? I obsesss about theory, the line, the visual langauge .... I can count on one hand and a half the other users that do here.

Wow. If I had the power, I'd make this quote into a logo and stick it on all dvxuser forums that deal with the art of film. Absolutely 100% correct.

What's even worse, is the defensive attitudes of people who ask for criticism/feedback, and if they get as much as a hint of anything less than complimentary, they immediately attack the critic personally. Those are the real asshats. Then many other people join in attacking the critic - boo, bad critic, meanie, nasty, hurt the widdle feewings of the "artist"! It's gotten to the point where only wishy-washy comments are posted for fear of the personal attacks, or indeed no comments ("if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"). One has to strain artificially to invent something positive to say to "balance out" the critique. I was astonished on several occasions when my feedback was genuinely positive like 95%, with only 5% of criticism, and I was violently attacked ad hominem by the poster.

All this breeds mediocrity. If you can't stand criticism, don't ask for feedback. Of course, you won't grow as an artist either. And that's how you end up with a situation as described by Hudson.

[Zak Forsman]

i had no idea there were so many former Comophobes on this site. :2vrolijk_08:

[Jim Brennan]

Can someone change my member status to "resident asshat"?

I had a really bad day yesterday...just one of those "wow, I had higher hopes for this slice of my life" kinda days. Sitting on pins and needles about the budget coming through for my new feature, kids driving me nuts, roof of the house leaking, getting nothing worthwhile done...and I was REALLY pissed about the Bronco game.

I stand by the content of my initial post, but after re-reading it this morning (and cringing when I kept hearing my high school French teacher's voice as I read it), it's waaaaay more patronizing than it could have been. I'm generally a much more moderate and reasoned kind of guy.

My apologies....

[Barry_Green]

Dude, don't ask for that title, because Jarred might actually do it -- look at poor Monte, or Mark Harris... :)

But I'm with you on this -- if you're going to try to communicate, you should actually try. Spelling and grammar exist for a reason. Might be less crucial when communicating among friends or in a specific artist group, but bringing internet vernacular and lousy spelling to a business environment (and film is a business) is just going to get you shown the door.

[Capt Quirk]

Yeah! And don't question the man... that will get you shown teh door!
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/coldoors/col_door_5.cfmhttp://http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/coldoors/col_door_5.cfm

hehe

[Simon Höfer]

Ugafan made my day again!

I think writing proper english is just good for the quality of this board. It is not my native language so I sometimes have a few problems if someone totally messes up words, punctuation and structure for example. My english skills are quite good, but there are alot of people with poor english skills and I can just imagine what problems they have.

Well written english just improves everything. Let's do it! :D

[Capt Quirk]

Nomis, your language is much better than many Americans... which should not be confused with Englsih.

[ugafan]

Might be less crucial when communicating among friends or in a specific artist group, but bringing internet vernacular and lousy spelling to a business environment (and film is a business) is just going to get you shown the door.

i've always heard that when one door closes, a window opens. it makes sense, because that would make it much easier to push your former boss through.

[David Jimerson]

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/291/1196106904.jpg

[Simon Höfer]

I guess Mr. Jimerson got busted by a ghost.

[HorseFilms]

I guess Mr. Jimerson got busted by a ghost.

A Klingon ghost.:thumbsup:

[Capt Quirk]

I had a 3D program decide it wanted to use a Klingon font for system messages. That was interesting. Kind of like Japanese, reading it and speaking it are two different things all together.

[Barry_Green]

i personally believe that u.s. americans don't use grammar cause some people in our nation don't have grammar books. and our education, like saudi arabia and the iraq, such as. i believe that our nation over here in the u.s. should help the u.s. and teach grammar to south africa and the iraq and asian countries so we can build better grammar.

Oh, and lest I let this slip by -- this is absolutely post of the year.