My Final Decision

[HerzogisGod]

Ugh...this was a tough one. On the one hand, Ive proven to myself that i can shoot features on Canon hi8, and the Panny gs-400. Features that have received positive reviews in Film Comment, Filmmaker, and a bunch of online indie film sites. Ive screened well in festivals, as well. So...Having shot my last two feature Documentaries on the Panny gs-400 (great camera BTW) im ready to move forward.

There's something about the DVX100b that Im very attracted to. Its certainly a few steps up from what Im used to, and asthetically, it's appealing in every way. Its just the right price, and ive seen seen some highly creative and inspiring output from users on this forum. But SD and 4:3 just doesnt do it for me anymore.

Then there's the XH A1. This baby seems to have it all, and at the "right price" as well.

Damn that HVX!!! Its so expensive!!! $7000 for camera and (2) 16BG P2's. But it's perfection!!! This camera will carry me through my next three projects (at least!)

P2 scares me. I gotta admit. Its new, its different, but after reading so much on this forum plus Barry's HVX book, Im convinced it works and Im willing to learn. I am going to use my Dell XPS M140 laptop to download P2 data while in the field. Is this okay? Then Ill transfer the data to an external hard drive when i get home. Sound right?

Blah!!!! so...it's the HVX for me.

If I was thirty years old, I would have chosen the XH A1 hands down, knowing I would eventually upgrade in a couple of years. But Im forty. I want the next several years of filmmaking quality to be my best. Hell, David Lynch was 40 when he made Blue Velvet, and Kubrick was 40 when he made Clockwork Orange :)

Any final input would be greatly appreciated. I am going to make the purchase in a few days.

[macyfilms]

I've been going through the same debate myself. But I'm leaning toward the XH-A1. I don't want to deal with the p2 cards and I don't want to spend the extra money on them. (where are you buying? 7k sound high. is that CAD?)

[HerzogisGod]

It's just under $7000 ($6895) at Spec-Com.

[n8ture]

The good news is that you have allot of information on the strengths and the weaknesses of the HVX200.

When I ordered mine, it was still a dark shape under a cloth. I had no idea if I just pissed away allot of money or if it was going to be really something.

The HVX is just a tool and it all depends what one fits you the best.

There's no right or wrong for what works for you vs. what works for someone else.

Once you get use P2, I think you would really like it.

I mean Sony slammed tapeless recording and what are they coming out with?

[HerzogisGod]

I totally agree...its just a tool. Hell, I'd shoot a movie on my Sony Cyber Shot digtal camera, if i HAD to. But you know how it is, you get these visions and you want creative flexability.

My biggest concern, aside from cost, is crash-free storage for P2 data. Can you direct me to a storge device that is crash-free and affordable?

Thanks a million :)

[David Jimerson]

I always find it curious when people say that P2 "scares" them. At least they usually come to realize that's there's nothing to scared about, and in fact, tape is far scarier. :)

(BTW, tape isn't "crash free," either. It deteriorates over time.)

[n8ture]

I'm not sure if there's anything bullet proof for any media.

I have friends whose DVX eats the tape if they try to review the footage.

It's strange but when I was shooting a Sony PD-150. I threw the finished tapes in a drawer and that's where they sit today. My master copies.

Anything happens to them, I'm screwed.

But for P2, I store the footage on hard drives as well as making data DVD backups and because it's a new thing to me, I still worry if it's enough.

I'd still never go back to tape. It might be a proven veteran but I like the ease of using P2.

There's pros and cons to everything, You need to decide for yourself if P2 is to much of a worry and concern over tape.

I wish there was a magic answer but it all comes down to what you want to work with, what you believe is the best for your situation and what you feel is right for you.

For me right now, it's the HVX and P2. A few years ago it was the Sony PD-150. Before that it was a Canon XL1.

You'll get allot of opinions and many of them may agree, but in the end even the majority opinion might not be the right answer for your situation.

[MikeGunter]

Hi,

" But Im forty."

Well, those of us who have children your age aren't going find fault in you just for your lack of experience...

I think you'll find P2 a terrific medium. Sony's came to the party late and went to SxS, understandably enough, but P2's a mature choice.

As for work flow, I offload my card via an Addonis (http://addonics.com/products/host_controller/adexc34cb.asp)card adapter to a portable USB drive (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=261). The content of the drive is then just transferred to a eSATA drive for editing. I haven't had any problems so far.

[HerzogisGod]

Mike Gunter...LOL...

thanks for the storage info

Im a neurotic stickler when it comes to protecting and archiving my DV masters. I shot 200 hours on my first Doc, and about 80 hours each on my second and third. Every minute was transcribed; scenes, events, interviews, action, with corresponding timecode. It was grueling. I dont use assistants, and I type like a spaz with broken fingers :)

But I can clearly visualize the awesome power of P2 in my life and how it will change the way i work and create.

[ProfessorU]

If I was shooting docs, I don't think I'd have gone with the HVX. Especially nature docs. Too much footage, too few batteries. The 4:2:2 color space doesn't seem as essential for reality. :)

[HerzogisGod]

My upcoming project is a narrative feature. I was inspired recently by David Lynch's book, 'Catching the Big Fish". This is an amazing collection of thoughts on filmmaking and the creative process. Im a big fan of "Inland Empire". A lot of people hated it, but for me it was the most liberating expierence I've had in a long time. It opened up a whole new way of looking at filmmaking and storytelling. He shot it on the PD-150, and he talks about the expierence in "Catching the Big Fish". I highly recommend this book. I own the audio CD, read by Lynch.

My documentaries were shot on the panasonic GS-400 mini DV. I filmed hundreds and hundreds of hours between them. If i could have done it all over I would have filmed them on the DVX100B which is ideal for serious documentary work, in my opinion. I just couldnt afford that camera at the time.

My films tend to go off the deep end, emotionally speaking. You can check out reviews and stuff by googling "Chris Deleo" plus "Why Neal" or "Billy's Girls". Im putting the finishing touches on my latest doc, titled "Inside Outsiders"

[MikeGunter]

Hi Chris,

I see your point about storage, as far as color space, the color space of life is like 100:100:100. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Kidding aside, ProfesssU's point is certainly valid, you may be fussing with cards more than you want to be.

However, with 32GB cards coming out this month, 64GB cards soon, you'll find that there are ways of logging your data and dragging and dropping that will help you some. I think you might become more tighter at looking at your work as you go, too and, gasp, deleting some of it as you go. You can certainly make more choices as you work.

The medium is changing all the time. I started on 16mm film in Vietnam and now use P2 on a HVX, and a lot of stuff in between - that's evolution.

I'd pay some attention to your history of work flow and what you liked and didn't like (what you'd like to change - why and how), and what system would help you do that. See if there is a system that would help you do that - if it even exists. That might be the thing that would make the most sense for you.

Good luck!

[drdimento]

I used the XH A1 and glad I went with the HVX200 and those wonderful P2 cards. Wow what a sweetheart . . AND . . it will let me use miniDV in a pinch . . that's even sweeter, although with P2 who would want to slide BACKWARDS to tape? Or even some stupid moving part drive and battery.

Anyways, your Dell will work man. Geez, my 1.6GHz 5 year old Toshiba works great and with a small portable USB driven 120Gb external HDD it's a honey AND with three P2's I can record forever :o)

[SPZ]

Herzogisgod,

As a current HVX user who uses it to make a living and is currently shooting a narrative short, I can only say good things about this camera.

One thing that still impresses me is how this camera can mantain detail in the dark spots, even when underexposed. I shot a tv commercial entirely shot at night, with some underexposed areas, and on a proper post house, they brought back background detail that I didn't even know it was there! Pretty amazing.

However, If I was to buy a camera today, I would also take a look at Sony's XDCAM- EX.

If you are able to afford an HVX, you should be able to afford an EX.

What you get with the EX, on paper, is too tempting to disregard. The option to have 10 bit HD-SDI out (that could be recorded to with an external portable device) on a full HD 1920x 1080 sensor is something that can put you in another championship.

But, out of the box, what you'll get is a "Sony" picture, which means flat, uninspiring, un film like- this is of course a zero factor if you do proper post production or dive into the camera setup menus.

Is the HVX "Mojo" important? More importantly... Are you ready to skip the colors you are used of the GS400 and go to a Sony colored picture?

Sincerely, I would.

Honestly, post SOny EX, if I didn't need a camera today, I would hold just a little bit longer to see what Panasonic comes up with.

I do not know if you make a living with the camera, but you could pay up the investment for a, lets say, Sony A1 (pro version of the HC1), or a Canon HV20, for example, in 2 or 3 event jobs, and then upgrade for the HVX Successor, or the EX? Maybe get to know the dificulties of shooting HD, focusing, editing concerns, etc?

Just a few suggestions...

Also I see you liked Inland Empire- so you must be a fan of "Dogma" shooting. I was going to suggest you to go and also take a look at 35mm adapters like the Brevis 35mm, but that is probably not needed for that kind of shooting.

Good luck on your purchase!

Any of these top cameras (HVX, XLH-A1, SOny XDCAM EX) can produce fantastic pictures for the big screen. For someone that comes from a GS400, you'll always be impressed! :)

[Barry_Green]

The option to have 10 bit HD-SDI out (that could be recorded to with an external portable device) on a full HD 1920x 1080 sensor is something that can put you in another championship.
FYI, it's not 10-bit, it's 8-bit. All HD-SDI needs to be a 10-bit word, but the actual contents of the EX1's HD-SDI is just 8-bit.

[HerzogisGod]

SPZ,

I am a very big fan of Lars Van Trier and the Dogma movement. Theres lots creative freedom with that style

[SPZ]

FYI, it's not 10-bit, it's 8-bit. All HD-SDI needs to be a 10-bit word, but the actual contents of the EX1's HD-SDI is just 8-bit.

Barry, I've been following this thread at DV info, and the Convergent Designs guy seems convinced its effective 10 bit

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=106861&page=6

Is it confirmed its 8bit?

EDIT- Herzogisgod, I love Dogma too. I believe that it is actually harder to achieve something in this type of narrative, tough. The amount you need to take out from your actors, as well as the realism of the environment is very, very demanding...

[JonathanLB]

It's funny that's a debate for some people, like P2 cards are some added inconvenience. Ha-ha, quite the opposite. I hated using crappy $2 MiniDV tapes for professional projects. I see them as consumer level goods capable of making very nice pictures for weddings and corporate videos but not what we were wanting to use for really professional projects. As soon as we used the HVX on one shoot I was sold on P2 cards and the workflow, it just made a lot of sense to me, my editor, and my producer. It was a great experience. We still have our XH-A1, but we're just going to rent it out, not use it ourselves. It's not a BAD camera, it's just... not my style. For the price, however, I think Canon made a really nice HD camera. I mean if you want to shoot HD and you don't want to spend much money, it's a great option, I believe. But if you have the cash the HVX200 is the best camera in its price range. Nothing else compares. The better cameras are *way* more expensive...

[Barry_Green]

and the Convergent Designs guy seems convinced its effective 10 bit

Convinced? In that thread he said "it's reportedly 10-bit", which is the same as saying "I've heard people say that it's supposed to be 10-bit" but there's certainly no definitive information from him in that statement. Or is there some other statement you're referring to? Because in that thread I certainly don't get the notion that he's convinced it's 10 bit, nor that he's even tried it to see.


Is it confirmed its 8bit?
I understood from a conversation with a Sony engineer posted on DVInfo that it was confirmed 8 bit...

[HerzogisGod]

I received my HVX yesterday. Good God Almighty!!!! Im so friggen amped.

I also ordered Barry's HVX dvd set and started going through them last night. Great job, Barry. These DVD's, along with your book and this amazing forum, are going to be my teachers for next several weeks :)

I was pricing Mac's yesterday because Im considering FCP as my editing choice. The salesman recommended Final Cut Express HD. It runs about $300. Anyone have expierence with this program? Ill be shooting mostly dramatic narrative films and documentary work (very little special FX type stuff)

Also, I ordered an extra battery made my Spec-comm. Its the SCPAN-6000. Panasonic includes a flyer that suggests non-panny batteries should not be used on the camera. Should I take the extra plunge and get the Panasonic Battery? I need your honest opinion because Im not sure what to do on this issue. Spec-comm is a great company and they handled my HVX order with real professionalism, but im still curious about the battery thing...


Thanks

[ProfessorU]

I would guess that a majority of DVX users use non-panasonic batteries. For example, the DVXUser battery. :)
I bought my batts from Adorama. So far they have performed identically to my Panasonic battery, at 1/3 the cost.
Unless you build the battery yourself, you're probably not going to do anything that voids the warranty.

[SPZ]

I received my HVX yesterday. Good God Almighty!!!! Im so friggen amped.

I also ordered Barry's HVX dvd set and started going through them last night. Great job, Barry. These DVD's, along with your book and this amazing forum, are going to be my teachers for next several weeks :)

I was pricing Mac's yesterday because Im considering FCP as my editing choice. The salesman recommended Final Cut Express HD. It runs about $300. Anyone have expierence with this program? Ill be shooting mostly dramatic narrative films and documentary work (very little special FX type stuff)

Also, I ordered an extra battery made my Spec-comm. Its the SCPAN-6000. Panasonic includes a flyer that suggests non-panny batteries should not be used on the camera. Should I take the extra plunge and get the Panasonic Battery? I need your honest opinion because Im not sure what to do on this issue. Spec-comm is a great company and they handled my HVX order with real professionalism, but im still curious about the battery thing...


Thanks

Congratulations, and welcome to the HVX club! :)

We do not get a chance to have the Barry book offer over here, so consider yourself lucky...

As for the software, go with Final Cut Studio 2, don't bother with express if you have the money- Soundtrack, Livetype, motion, color, DVDstudio pro, Compressor, etc. are all worth the extra cash.

I believe that you should also look into downloading p2cms from the Panasonic website. The link is around here somewhere. And do consider getting Raylight for Mac, or P2 Log. I've got FCS 5.1.2 with an older quicktime, and am having no issues with P2, but reportedly the new versions of Quicktime, Leopard and FCP are not communicating very well with P2.

Barry, I stand corrected, then. He sounded convinced, to me.

[drdimento]

Good Lord "herzogisgod" that's a lot of footage. I know a director of a major motion picture that didn't do HALF that for a feature length movie. Geez! That's a lot of ????

[JonathanLB]

You have to use a Panasonic battery?! HAHA, those money-grubbing arrogant fools. The non-brand name batteries work exactly the same, it's a freakin' battery not a rocket ship. Wow, yeah go spend $170 on a Panasonic battery. What a ripoff.

[HerzogisGod]

SPZ:
Thanks for the advise :)

drdimento:
My first three films were documentaries. That's why such high hours :)

Cool, Im gonna stick with the off brand batteries. I just wanted to make sure seeing as this is such a steep investment.

[ProfessorU]

If you're looking for files, use the Panasonic P2 file and driver guide (http://panasonic.sixbullets.net) I made, it's much easier than trying to use the Panasonic sites. :)