MXF or QT to keep safe

[cane]

FCP makes a copy from the MXF files to QT in capture scratch disk
Which file shell I keep MXF or QT file what is better ??
Or do I need both files ??

[Barry_Green]

Keep the MXFs at least. If you want to avoid having duplicate files, get raylight, that way you won't be making the quicktime files at all and you can just keep track of (and back up) the MXF files.

[Stephen Mick]

Okay, Barry. I have to jump in and ask a stupid question here…

What am I gaining by using Raylight over FCP's Log & Transfer function? Or conversely, what am I losing?

I've been using FCP to ingest my P2 clips to quicktime, and haven't had a misstep yet. Working with a MacBook Pro and the Duel Adapter, I've had not a single hiccup with my workflow.

I've downloaded and installed the Raylight demo, but since it won't work with clips of more than 10 seconds, I'm not sure what it can really do.

So, my workflow with FCP is…
Shoot
Connect Duel Adapter
Load Card
Open Log & Transfer
Load Clips
Eject Card
Erase

What would my Raylight workflow be? Is it a drag and drop situation where I create folders on a drive for the "CONTENTS" of each card?

Like I said, maybe a stupid question, but while my workflow hasn't been a problem so far, I'm always looking for a better way.

Oh, and happy turkey day to all.

--SM

[dvInsight]

Your workflow is fine, especially if it has been working for you, and if you are the only one editing what you shoot, or you know that it stays in the Final Cut realm, it may have advantages.

Let's say you shoot 30 takes, but only need 7. Well your workflow allows you to pick and choose prior to import. You may also only need a few seconds of a take, so your method allows you to select your in/out point too.

From what I have come to understand, FCP and Quicktime just unwrap the MXF file and rewrap it in Quicktime without altering any pixels. So no harm done.

So as long as you backup your capture scratch and prject files you are good to go.

Now with Raylight, one of the big advantageous is that you can shoot and save a folder for every P2 card when you do not have the time to log and capture your footage. The other huge advantage is that if you are on a commercial shoot, working for others, it is better to stay native P2. Many Avid guys do not want DVCPro HD Quicktime files. So native is better and it is just as easy for you to work with it as others.

The other big one is data management and the elimination of redundancy. Lets say you have a commercial job (pre Raylight as many of us did) and you are unsure of who is going to edit the final job. First you would create folders and save the contents of individual P2 cards to them. Then to be responsible you back this digital negative to another drive. So now you have doubled your data.

Next, you get thejob to edit the footage. Great, but now you have to import your clips into FCP. If you import all of it, you have just tripled your storage requirements (the original P2 folder, its back up and the new Quicktime capture. Finally, being responsible, you back up this working job and now have quadrupled your storage requirements.

Using Raylight would allow you to have just the original and a backup. So I see Raylight as a data management and hard drive savior.

That how I see it, hope to hear more from Barry and others too.

[Ldom]

Now with Raylight, one of the big advantageous is that you can shoot and save a folder for every P2 card when you do not have the time to log and capture your footage.

This is valid with FCP as well. You can ingest data coming from hard drive folders that contain copies of P2 cards.

I do this all the time when I'm shooting continuously. Shoot a card, copy it to a folder, erase card. When the day is finished, you have x folders containing P2 cards and in Log & Transfer, I just select all the folders in one shot and have them all in the left window.

Hope this helps,
Laurent

[Barry_Green]

What am I gaining by using Raylight over FCP's Log & Transfer function?
Speed, space, flexibility, metadata, cross-platform compatibility and reliability.


Or conversely, what am I losing?
The ability to subclip footage on ingest. (of course, you don't even *have* to ingest at all, so is that really such a loss?)


I've been using FCP to ingest my P2 clips to quicktime, and haven't had a misstep yet. Working with a MacBook Pro and the Duel Adapter, I've had not a single hiccup with my workflow.
Glad to hear, and you definitely don't have to rock the boat; if it's working for you, keep going.

But Apple has a notorious history of "breaking" the log & transfer/import P2 workflow, and they've done it again in 6.0.2. It was partly functional in 5.0.4, they fixed some things and broke others in 5.1, fixed it in 5.1.1, changed everything in 5.1.2 which largely worked, broke it in 5.1.3, fixed it again in 5.1.4, changed everything in 6.0, and broke it again in 6.0.2.

You can get off that rollercoaster entirely by just totally ditching the entire Log & Transfer process. Plug in your card, drag the footage to the timeline and edit. No log & transfer at all. No importing. No unwrapping and rewrapping. No copying duplicate data into your capture scratch folder. No having to archive two types of media (the original MXFs and now the manufactured Quicktimes).

And because you still have the original MXFs, you have cross-platform compatibility. Every NLE on the Windows side works with MXF files, none of them can use Apple's manufactured Quicktime files (unless, if you really need them, you can get another product in the raylight family, the DVCPRO-HD Quicktime Decoder).


What would my Raylight workflow be?
Shoot.
Plug in card.
Edit.

Or, whatever you want your workflow to be. Just delete the whole Log & Transfer step out of your workflow. If you offload cards to a hard drive throughout your shoot day, you can now edit right off those hard disks. If you shoot news stories and have a couple of cards full of footage, just plug the camera in and edit that footage.

You don't *have* to edit off the cards, of course, it's just an option. But when cards get to 64GB or 128GB, that hour of importing footage is going to start looking awful wasteful, and having to free up 64 or 128gb on a hard disk to make room for the (unnecessary) Quicktimes is going to start looking expensive and wasteful too...

Basically, the reason I pimp it so hard is because Raylight solves nearly every technical support issue we ever hear on these boards. Marcus (of dvfilm) has never paid me a penny, I have no relationship to that company, I am a raylight user and I paid full retail price for it and I'm glad to have done so. I think every Mac user should be using it; I'll probably be getting a Mac when my Red arrives -- I'm hoping they'll have a quad-core Penryn MBP by January -- and I wouldn't touch FCP/MXF without raylight.

[dvInsight]

But Apple has a notorious history of "breaking" the log & transfer/import P2 workflow, and they've done it again in 6.0.2. It was partly functional in 5.0.4, they fixed some things and broke others in 5.1, fixed it in 5.1.1, changed everything in 5.1.2 which largely worked, broke it in 5.1.3, fixed it again in 5.1.4, changed everything in 6.0, and broke it again in 6.0.2.

What Barry said above is key. I tend to forget pain easily, and always had a sigh of relief when things just started working again with the next update.

So after using Raylight I forgot that "roller coaster" that Barry mentioned. But that is why we are lucky to have Barry. He does most of the remembering for us!

[Stephen Mick]

So then, if I want to sidestep the whole Log/Transfer process, but have to offload my cards, can I simply drag the entire contents of the P2 card to my storage drive? Then Raylight will allow me to import the files into FCP as if they were QuickTime files?

--SM

[Barry_Green]

Yes, exactly. But Apple doesn't recommend doing a finder drag/drop, they recommend you do a disk image instead. And Panasonic doesn't recommend doing a finder drag/drop, they'd rather you did the copy through P2CMS.

[Stephen Mick]

I'll test it out and see if it works better for me. Anything to streamline the workflow.

--SM

[dvInsight]

If you are using drag and drop, which has never failed me, then create a structure for your project. It might go like this:

Project Drive (which is the external data drive)
Nike_Commercial_Date (A folder/directory on the drive)
01_Nike_P2 (contents of 1st P2 shot go here)
02_Nike_P2 (contents of 2nd P2 shot go here)

and continue the pattern until shoot is done. You can do the same thing for a multi-camera shoot too. It might look like this:

Project Drive (which is the external data drive)
Nike_Commercial_Date (A folder/directory on the drive)
A_Camera_Nike (for the A camera P2 structure described above)
01_A_CAM_ Nike_P2 (contents of 1st A Camera P2 shot go here)

You can just repeat for multiple cameras or projects. Most of my clients really like it. If you have a script supervisor on the set, it can be a coordinated plan so the slate reflects the card/camera numbers.

I use the 0#, or 00# scheme so that the P2 cards stay in order in the finder, etc.

Let us know how you enjoy Raylight.

[Stephen Mick]

Sounds good. I pretty much fill all of my P2 cards (64GB worth) on any given shoot day, so any time I can save in my workflow is a good thing.

And apologies for thread-hijacking.

--SM