HELP!!! HVX200 Dropped Frames

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hello everyone,

I searched the old posts and found some related posts, but no solution...

My HVX200 has been dropping frames since I got it, I didn't notice at first, but now that I look back at footage I shot a day or two after we got the camera I see that it has the same problem.

Oh, and it isn't anything to do with capture. This is a problem that is happening in-camera, and is readily apparent when using the BT-LH80w (not as easy to see on EVF or LCD).

It seems to drop a frame or two every 3-5 frames or so. But it is not 100% predictable, though it does happen consistently (never goes away).

This happens in every frame rate and when shooting to tape, P2 and Firestore FS-100... It makes the footage look jerky whenever there is movement in the shot...

I have a very important shoot tomorrow and need to know if there is a chance I can fix this by resetting the microcomputer on the camera. I have read which button to press in the manual, but it doesn't say if the camera should be on or off, or any other specific instructions.

Thanks so much for any help anyone can offer.

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

I would suggest trying to get someone from Panasonic on the phone, though its unlikely that you'll be able to (they usually have someone call you back).

Do you have any clips you could post that show the problem clearly?

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

I can post a short clip with a pull that makes it obvious. I already have a static shot of a darkroom timer (jerks in smooth movement of second hand) to show the Panny engineer my sales rep is talking to about this what is going on. The pull is much easier to see it in though.

I'll get back to you once I have the footage ready.

Thanks,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

I'm curious to see the problem, but I seriously doubt I'll be any help in a solution.

If the problem is as pervasive as it sounds from your description, I would seriously consider lining up a rental for tomorrow,
if you can't cancel/move this shoot that is.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

I have posted a link in the footage section, but here is the link anyway, I think I'll take down the one in the footage section since it only pertains to this post:

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=timothydobrien1&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en

I am still uploading the pull clip, and it should be done by about 3 p.m. eastern time.

I have a DVX to borrow for tomorrow's shoot, but I wanted to shoot in HD for our archive (we are no longer adding SD material to the archive).

Thanks,

Tim

[Jason Ramsey]

How long have you had your HVX? If you just bought it, you might be able to get it exchanged from the dealer you bought it from. If some time has passed, you will likely have to go through your warranty coverage and get it sent in for repair.

I would check with spec-comm and see if they can do it under warranty for you (any repairs that may be necessary), as you can expect a quicker response from them than you can from Panny themselves.

Sounds like a problem with the cam, and not human error or anything like that.

Later,
Jason

[Spec-Comm]

The reset button is to pushed while the camera is on. Don't have it in record mode or anything. Just turn it on and push the reset button and see if your problem is still there.

Also check your firmware. If it's any older than 4.06 you should have it updated. It may or may not do anything but it's always good to know that its done when we're troubleshooting.

Best regards,

Andrew Hoffman
Senior Operations Manager
Specialized Communications Corp.
20940 Twin Springs Dr.
Smithsburg, MD 21783-1510 USA
800-359-1858
301-790-0103
Fax: 301-790-0173
andrewh@spec-comm.com
www.spec-comm.com

Please visit our new online store at ( http://www.spec-comm.com/store ). New products being added daily!

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hey Luis,

While we are waiting for the footage to upload, could you tell me if you know anything about doing the system reset of the microcomputer on the HVX? For instance, should the camera be on or off?

Thanks,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

Andrew to the rescue.
I was about to come on here and second what Jason said about contacting Spec-Comm.
:)

[Timothy O'Brien]

Thanks for the replies and instructions on the reset folks.

1. Yes, the camera is pretty new (a month and an half) but the footage shows the problem from right when we got it. So I have proof it was defective out of the box (if it is a defect and not just a microcomputer problem that a reset will solve).

2. Definitely a camera problem, does it whether locked down and static or doing a pan, tilt and zoom at the same time.

3. Firmware is up-to-date. That was the first thing I did when I got the camera.

It seems likely that it is a computer problem to me, but that is just intution...

I'll let everyone know when it is safe to download the file with the pull (still uploading)

But you can feel free to download the file with the darkroom timer now. This is a subtle thing to notice in this footage, but it is there...

Thanks so much,

Tim

[Jason Ramsey]

If you noticed it from the beginning, you should have contacted the company you bought it from immediately and seen about exchanging it.

But, it's probably too late for that now. If it is a camera issue, it would be a warranty repair by now, probably. Again, I would recommend spec-comm, once you have weeded out any other possibilities.

Later,
Jason

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Jason,

I didn't notice it in the beginning, well, at least I didn't realize it was the camera. Because the place I noticed it was doing a pull when zoomed all the way out, and I figured I had just had too much coffee that day. And I did let my sales rep know as soon as I realized it was a camera problem, which was weeks ago.

Thanks,

Tim

[Spec-Comm]

Tim,

Did the reset fix the problem?

Andrew Hoffman

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Andrew,

No dice... It almost seems worse... Did you take a look at the footage I uploaded? It is pretty easy to see the problem on horizontal or vertical lines in the shots, the edges of windows for instance. It is a lot harder to see on the darkroom timer footage, but it is there.

Thanks,

Tim

[mattistupid]

Are you on a mac? I could be extremely wrong here but isn't there a problem with dropped frames when cards aren't write protected and captured to OS X??

Again, I kind of think I might be mixed up on this one.

[David Jimerson]

What version of Raylight are you using?

Is this footage shot with any variable frame rate?

Can you post your exact Recording Setup and Scene File settings having to do with frame rate and recording format?

[Luis Caffesse]

Well I downloaded the first clip (the darkroom timer) and I have to say I'm not seeing much there... it looks like it might have some 'jerky' motion to it (but then again I'm looking for it and could be imagining things) - when I go frame by frame on it, it seems like each frame is moving forward smoothly, covering the same amount of distance on the second hand.

I'm downloading your second clip now. It's going to take a while.

EDITED TO ADD:
is it done uploading?
For some reason I can't download it.

[David Jimerson]

OK, it finally downloaded completely and I got more than a few frames to look at . . .

Again, what was the frame rate? Was it 24pA, by chance? That looked a lot like what a too-quick zoom would look like in 24p, when the footage is viewed in a 24pA stream.

[Luis Caffesse]

Downloading the 'jerky pull' clip now.

I think David might be onto something here.

[David Jimerson]

That's why I need to know what all of the settings are.

[Luis Caffesse]

Well, I can't download the 'jerky pull' clip - the download keeps on timing out on me after getting about halfway done.

BUT - I imported the 720P clip of the darkroom timer into FCP and found that you shot it at 60fps in 720/24P mode. I was able to run it through the Panasonic Frame rate converter and convert the clip to its native 23.98fps - and it looks completely smooth (granted, it's in slo mo - but its really smooth slomo).

I'll see if I can upload it, but it could take a while.

My suspicion is that there is probably nothing wrong with your camera, and that what you're seeing is either duplicate or pulldown frames from the mode you're shooting in (like David suggested). From what I've seen it doesn't look like your camera is dropping frames - if it were we would see the second hand on the darkroom timer move different distances between frames, and what I"m seeing seems to be moving at a very constant rate.

[David Jimerson]

In that case, the version of Raylight will matter. Older versions had some trouble with the variable framerates.

I, too, suspect it's not a problem with the camera; I'm not sure what could go wrong inside the camera to cause it to "drop frames." But the footage and the description of the problem do sound like other issues I've encountered, but in the way 24p was shot, and in the way older version of Raylight handled footage.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Ok, not sure where the raylight question came from. I'm not using raylight.

As far as the capture problem with dropped frames goes, that's not it because it looks the same on the BT-LH80w display while I'm shooting and if I play it back from the camera.

The darkroom timer footage is hard to see the jerk in, I can see it but I have to pay attention for it. It's too bad the footage of the jerky pull isn't working for you. It is very obvious in that shot.

As for the frame rate, it is obvious in every frame rate under the right circumstances, both SD and HD, on P2, tape and Firestore FS-100.

I'm positive this camera is defective, especially now that I reset the microcomputer and it still has the problem. By the way, the jerkiness looks the same in every framerate, shooting 60p doesn't help to smooth the dropped frames. It is just a bit more obvious in the lower framerates.

I guess I'll be waiting to see about sending it in for repairs or getting a replacement (my first choice since it was messed up when I bought it.)

Thanks again,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

Timothy - I guess my question is - are you judging the footage by what is coming directly out of the camera, or are you judging it in the framerate it is meant to be viewed in?

Because you uploaded a 60fps file that needs to be converted to 23.98fps to be viewed.
When I put it in FCP and converted it with the frame rate converter, it looks silky smooth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm 100% certain nothing is wrong with your camera - but the clip you uploaded suggests that you're evaluating the footage with the duplicate frames and/or pulldown frames intact, which can in fact look odd sometimes.

I'd be curious to see some 720/60P as well as 1080/60i footage if you happen to have it.
Neither of those would have any duplicate or pulldown frames to remove - and if the camera was in fact dropping frames it would become fairly obviously very quickly looking at something shot in those modes.


EDITED TO ADD:
I'm uploading the converted clip right now.
It's going to take another 15-20 minutes.
Once its up I'll let you know so you can take a look at it.

[David Jimerson]

Which DVFilm product are you using, then?

Which circumstances cause the problem? Again, what are the Scene File and Recording Setup settings? These settings may make a difference.

I'm only trying to help here.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

If it is labeled 60p then I was thinking that was a clip I shot in 60p, not 24p. When I open it with QuickTime it says it is 59.94 fps. Which is what it should be. I did shoot other versions of that clip in other framerates, but that one should be 60p.

David, I'm not sure what you mean about DVFilm product? I'm using Final Cut Studio 2.0... And I hope I don't seem like I'm being rude, I know you are trying to help, I just didn't understand why you thought I was using raylight.

As for the scene file, it is #1, the default. And the recording setup is:

REC FORMAT P2: 720P/60P
480i REC MODE: DV (blued out)
REC FUNCTION: Normal
ONE SHOT TIME: 1F (blued out)
INTERVAL TIME: 1 s (blued out)
PREREC MODE: OFF
MIC ALC: ON
MIC GAIN 1: -50dB
MIC GAIN 2: -50dB
25M REC CH SEL: 2CH (blued out)
TCC MODE: DF
TGC: REC RUN
TC PRESET: ----
UB MODE: FRM. RATE
UB PRESET: ----


Thanks,

Tim

[Timothy O'Brien]

Oh, and Luis, I'm sure it looks the same both when recording and during playback in-camera. It is definitely the camera and not anything software or file transfer related.

Thanks,

Tim

[David Jimerson]

Hi Luis,

If it is labeled 60p then I was thinking that was a clip I shot in 60p, not 24p. When I open it with QuickTime it says it is 59.94 fps. Which is what it should be. I did shoot other versions of that clip in other framerates, but that one should be 60p.

David, I'm not sure what you mean about DVFilm product? I'm using Final Cut Studio 2.0... And I hope I don't seem like I'm being rude, I know you are trying to help, I just didn't understand why you thought I was using raylight.

As for the scene file, it is #1, the default. And the recording setup is:

REC FORMAT P2: 720P/60P
480i REC MODE: DV (blued out)
REC FUNCTION: Normal
ONE SHOT TIME: 1F (blued out)
INTERVAL TIME: 1 s (blued out)
PREREC MODE: OFF
MIC ALC: ON
MIC GAIN 1: -50dB
MIC GAIN 2: -50dB
25M REC CH SEL: 2CH (blued out)
TCC MODE: DF
TGC: REC RUN
TC PRESET: ----
UB MODE: FRM. RATE
UB PRESET: ----


Thanks,

Tim

This is the clip with the red truck and the building with the zoom pullback? That looked to be a 1080 file -- it was huge.

The reason I ask about DVFilm is because the footage had the DVFilm demo version tags all over it.

This is the Jefky_Pull.mov file I downloaded from your link:

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/291/1194909469.jpg

Is this not the right file?

[Timothy O'Brien]

Ah, now that question makes sense. And yes, it is 1080i60. I shot many frame rates and thought I was grabbing the one that was 720p60.

Anyway, I have no idea where the DVFilm tags came from. Must be something on your machine, I don't see it here...

So can you see what I mean about the jerky footage? It is unusable for anything with any motion. You can actually see it in the LCD and EVF, but only barely, and only if you know what to look for.

I'm pretty sure this camera is just a lemon.

I'll check back in a bit to see what you think. Gotta bring dinner to the family.

BTW, I'm reposting the Jerky_Pull.mov clip so that Luis can download it. It is zipped now and just finished uploading.

Thanks,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

EDITED because I don't think I was being very clear

Check out the 23.98fps file of your clip, and tell me if you still see the jerkiness in it.
To me it looks totally smooth:

You can download it here (www.pitchproductions.com/TimothyTest.zip)
It's 88.7MB

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

But what good would it do for me to have it be 23.98? I shot it at 60p, so that is the framerate that it should play back smoothly at. Do you mean that you think this is 24p over 60p footage? If so, I suppose it could be, because like I said I shot in a lot of different framerates for the test, but QuickTime says this one is 59.94.

Did you get a chance to download the new zipped copy of the jerky pull? It is 1080i60. It is very apparent that it has problems if you just look at the vertical and horizontal lines during the pull.

One thing I should point out, is that dropped frames may not be the right way to describe this problem. It looks like it has duplicate frames or something. As if it is dropping a frame, and replacing it with the preceeding frame. Either way, the footage is too jerky to use in certain types of shots.

Thanks again,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

Do you mean that you think this is 24p over 60p footage?

That's what I was guessing, yes.


Did you get a chance to download the new zipped copy of the jerky pull? It is 1080i60.

I did download it finally, I'm not sure if its the new one or the old one I"m looking at, I'm assuming you re-uploaded the same file. While I did notice it seems a bit jerky, I also noticed that the file I have is not 1080i60, it is 24fps. In fact, the framerate shows up as 24fps in FCP, as opposed to 23.98 which is what i would expect if it had removed the advanced pulldown- so I'm a bit confused.

I have to be honest, I'm still not convinced this is a camera malfunction.
How did you shoot those clips?
Were they shot on P2 cards or Firestore?
And how exactly did you ingest them, and then export them for us to see (I assume you exported them at some point because they were both mono files with only 1 audio track).

Without specifics on the workflow its going to be hard to rule out everything else that it could be before being able to say definitively that it is a camera malfunction. As of right now I still think its looking like a workflow issue, not a camera issue. But I could be wrong.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

Thanks for taking the time to try to help me figure this out.

The thing about the workflow is that it does this in-camera while shooting and on playback. You can see it very clearly on the BT-LW80w. My sales rep has been in the business for like 30 years and he immediately saw it and said it was not right.

BTW, the clip I uploaded says it is 29.97 in QuickTime and in FCP on my machine, which is what it should be. I wonder why it would say it is 23.98 on your machine?

As far as the workflow goes though, I shot these particular clips to P2, but it also does the same thing with clips shot to tape and to the Firestore. I'll upload a short clip when I get home that was shot to tape. You can see the problem in the horizontal and vertical lines on this clip.

I'll drop a note on here once it uploads.

Thanks,

Tim

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hi Luis,

The 60i clip from tape is uploading now.

I noticed I missed some of your other questions above.

I am using Firewire for the import, directly from the camera using Log and Transfer in FCP Studio 2.0 I have the latest software updates for the pro apps installed. I know there used to be problems with importing clips on Macs (which I found out about by googling today.) But I had assumed that log and transfer was the proper way to go about downloading clips. Is it not?

As for the export, the way that seemed least likely to mess it up was just opening with QuickTime, setting new in and out points and then saving as a new file.

The mono audio is correct because this was just a test and I don't like to waste hard drive space when I can avoid it. The only reason I left a channel intact was because I wanted to hear what we were saying about the test while we did it.

I'll let you know as soon as the footage from tape is done uploading.

Thanks again,

Tim

[Timothy O'Brien]

Oh, also, when I first got the camera all I had to shoot HD on was the Firestore, and so I shot a lot with it. All of the footage I shot with it looks the same as the stuff from P2 and tape. It was transferred in via log and transfer also.

[Luis Caffesse]

My sales rep has been in the business for like 30 years and he immediately saw it and said it was not right.
Well then - it sounds like there's a problem.
:)

BTW, the clip I uploaded says it is 29.97 in QuickTime and in FCP on my machine, which is what it should be. I wonder why it would say it is 23.98 on your machine?
No idea - but it says 24fps on my machine, both in FCP and Quicktime, not 23.98fps (or 29.97). I'll check it again when I get a chance.


I'll upload a short clip when I get home that was shot to tape. You can see the problem in the horizontal and vertical lines on this clip.
Take your time - I'm curious to see it but I'm sure you have other things to take care of.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Take your time - I'm curious to see it but I'm sure you have other things to take care of.

Actually, I have both the HVX and a borrowed DVX sitting in my living room right now waiting for me to get up at 6 a.m. and go do a super important shoot. I'd really like to still use the HVX, but I am afraid that this problem might rear its head. I have to shoot hockey first thing in the a.m. followed by lots of other stuff all day, including lasers:laugh: Not sure how well it would do with lasers and fast moving hockey...

The lasers in particular seem like they could be a problem because they are horizontal lines that move down a person's body. (It's a body scanner for apparel design)

The other option is that I lug around the 12 year old, 22 pound Sony DXC-637 Beta camera all day... That is not my idea of fun after having done it for a year. Plus it does not lead to as dynamic of shots as a smaller camera. Too damn hard to move in order to get interesting angles and stuff. Plus the extra 22 pounds makes me even more top heavy when I'm shooting out on the ice...

Anyway, the other clip is now online. Damn Apple .Mac is soooo slow on uploads it is silly.

Thanks again,

Tim

[Timothy O'Brien]

"No idea - but it says 24fps on my machine, both in FCP and Quicktime, not 23.98fps (or 29.97). I'll check it again when I get a chance."

Yeah, that is really weird because I dropped it directly into the bin in FCP while I was at the office, and it said it was 29.97. What does it say if you open it with QuickTime?

EDIT: Damn, I need some sleep, I didn't even notice you had already said you tried it in QuickTime...

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hey Luis,

After thinking about what you said about it saying it was 23.98 on your machine, and doing some more googling, I am wondering (I know this may sound crazy) if the camera is applying pull-down to footage that should not have pull-down.

The fact that it is doing this approximately every 4 or 5 frames makes me very suspicious...

Anyway, I guess that I'll shoot with the DVX tomorrow and deal with this Wednesday...

By the way, I downloaded the Jerky_Pull.mov clip to my Macbook at home, and since I don't have FCP installed I can't play it, but the inspector still reads the same 29.97 in QuickTime that it shows on my machine at work... It is so weird it would show up as 23.98 on your machine, and that makes me that much more suspicious that it is applying pull-down.

Thanks,

Tim

[Luis Caffesse]

After thinking about what you said about it saying it was 23.98 on your machine...

Again, just to clarify - it does NOT show up as 23.98 on my machine, it is showing up as 24fps. That is what I find so odd. If it were 1080pA24 footage with the advanced pulldown removed then you would expect it to be 23.98fps. But, seeing as the file is 24fps all I can figure is that it was either exported that way, or run through cinema tools at some point.

But if you say it is showing up as 29.97 on your system, I don't know what to say.
What would really help is for someone else to download this clip and check it on their system. Then at least we would know who is getting the weird response - me or you.

This has me slightly confused.

[Barry_Green]

P.S... that DVFilm logo is coming in because David's using the Raylight DVCPRO-HD decoder trial, I'd bet... :thumbsup:

[David Jimerson]

P.S... that DVFilm logo is coming in because David's using the Raylight DVCPRO-HD decoder trial, I'd bet... :thumbsup:

I think that may be true, which is odd because I paid for it.

[David Jimerson]

The Jerky_Pull clip reads as 29.97, but progressive, for me.

I'm still wondering if it's 24pA (or even 24p) material. It would explain a lot of what's going on.

[Timothy O'Brien]

Hello everyone,

I did a lot of googling last night, and though it sounds crazy I think that the problem is that the camera is somehow recording the footage with pull-down. It would explain why it is so consistent (every 4-5 frames or so). I don't know if that is even possible, but it really seems like that might be what is going on. Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks,

Tim