Cheapest, smallest 24p camera on the planet?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I have a friend with a client asking about the cheapest, smallest 24p-capable camera on the market (e.g., smaller than a DVX100).

• HD-capability preferred, but not absolutely necessary for his application.
• EIther 3CCD/CMOS or 1CCD/CMOS sensor is fine.
• Any format—recording format is not an issue.
• Actually, cost is not a factor, all he's looking for is SMALLEST 24p-capable camera on the planet!

Thanks for any replies!

[Zak Forsman]

Canon HV20? I think...

[Ralph Oshiro]

Canon HV20? I think...
Thanks! That looks like just what they're looking for! Any other suggestions in a 3CCD/3CMOS?

[jleo]

The Canon HG10 with AVCHD Hard Drive Recording also has 24p:

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/html/HDV/HG10/index.shtml

[Ralph Oshiro]

The Canon HG10 with AVCHD Hard Drive Recording also has 24pOohh! Nice one! Thanks! Yup, AVCHD is the "new" DCT!

[abalex]

but these cameras are not progressive 24p like dvx right?

[Huy Vu]

but these cameras are not progressive 24p like dvx right?

They are. It's just 1080p with a 3:2 pulldown.

[Ralph Oshiro]

:::slight bump:::

Is there a 2009 update to this list???

For myself, now, what is the most expensive (e.g., largest sensor, best optics, etc.), 24p-capable camera on the market, yet still in a small form-factor (e.g., Handycam-sized)? Would it be the Canon Vixia HF S10/S100? Is the only difference between the two models the built-in memory in the S10? Does Canon make a 3CMOS version in a similar form-factor?

Requirements:

• 24-frame progressive capability with available 1/48th shutter.
• HD-capability preferred, either full or 720p, but SD camera suggestions are welcomed as well.
• 3CCD/CMOS preferred, though I'll take 1CCD/CMOS suggestions as well.
• Any format—though, SDHC preferred, otherwise, any media, if none in SDHC on the market.

Thanks for any replies!

[Captain Pierce]

AFAIK, Canon is the only company putting 24p into the small form-factor cameras, so I think the HF S cams are the best bet. (Their other units in the HF series, the HG hard drive series, and the HV tape series all have smaller sensors.) They don't make anything in a 3-chip, though.

Another option, though probably a little bigger, might be something like the new GH1 DSLR that has a 24p video mode...

[Nathyn]

I went for the HG10, because it was $369 and had everything I needed. Now I see the price has been raised to $399 at the place I bought it from so they must be down to the last few. This cam is getting popular again at the $350 - $400 price point. People are buying used and refurbished. Check out eBay.

-Nate

[hazydave]

For myself, now, what is the most expensive (e.g., largest sensor, best optics, etc.), 24p-capable camera on the market, yet still in a small form-factor (e.g., Handycam-sized)? Would it be the Canon Vixia HF S10/S100?


There's the Panasonic HDC-TM700. Ok, it's not the most expensive, but it's certainly the one to beat in 2010 in this form factor. That's probably the only 3-chipper in "high end Handicam" form factor these days.

The only advantage of the Canon might be native 24p. The TM700 shoots in 24p, but stores in 60i pulldown format, which made sense in the days of tape but don't when you're tapeless. It's still progressive, but you're wasting bits.



Is the only difference between the two models the built-in memory in the S10?

Yup... Panaonic does the same, the SD700 is the one without internal memory. Not available in the USA.



Does Canon make a 3CMOS version in a similar form-factor?

No, it's just Panasonic doing 3-chippers in consumer cameras these days. The top of the line consumers all have large sensors (1/2.83" on the Sonys, 1/2.6" on the Canons, 1/2.33" on the JVCs). Canon's new top-of-the-line is actually the HF-S21 I think, but it's go the same 8.5Mpixel sensor as the S10. They use 6Mpixels during video shooting, to avoid the color errors you had with Bayer interpolation on a 2Mpixel sensor. Sony uses 4Mpixels, JVC something like 8Mpixels these days. So you do actually get good color with single chippers, compared to the past.




• 24-frame progressive capability with available 1/48th shutter.
• HD-capability preferred, either full or 720p, but SD camera suggestions are welcomed as well.
• 3CCD/CMOS preferred, though I'll take 1CCD/CMOS suggestions as well.
• Any format—though, SDHC preferred, otherwise, any media, if none in SDHC on the market.


Sounds like you really want the TM700. It does 24p, with 1/48th shutter option (and 1/24th I think on "slow shutter" mode), it only does 1920x1080, but there's are four 1080/60i bitrates, two 1080/24p bitrates, and one 28Mb/s 1080/60p mode (which is why I forgive the lack of a 720/60p mode). Three chips, and takes either SDHC or SDXC cards.

The only real disadvantge of the TM700... the Canons have higher resolution LCDs, and perhaps higher quality still shots (since they have native 8Mpixel for stills, rather than 3x3Mpixel interpolation). Not that I really care that much about stills on a video cameras, but some people do.

[Ralph Oshiro]

hazydave:

Hey! Thanks for that (belated, but still useful), detailed reply! I still haven't gotten around to getting this camera. Here's what I'm looking for: basically a 24p "B-roll" camera for "trick shots" and vehicle-mount shots. Last year's Canon models, the S20/S200, had 24p modes they branded as, "Native 24p Mode," and "24p Cinema Mode." Neither of which were directly ingestable in a usable form in FCP as a 23.97p file (unless you first manually determined the interlace cadence, then performed a reverse telecine to remove the 3:2 pulldown). Not sure if that's "fixed" in the new Canon model, the HF-S21 or not (probably not). Why is it you don't have these issues with Panasonic DVX/HVX/HPX cameras? Is it because they're capable of "real" 24p, 2:3:3:2 pulldown, right in-camera?

Ideal B-roll 24p camera needs to have:

1. Largest image sensor in compact form factor.
2. HD
3. 24p.
4. 2:3:3:2 pulldown.
5. 24p "over 60i" is fine, as long as it's employing 2:3:3:2 pulldown (like a DVX/HVX, etc.).
6. Editable in standard NLEs, e.g., FCP.
7. Solid-state storage (both, built-in and removable).

Thanks for your help!

[Camera Expert]

The Canon HF S21 is said to be the first Canon AVCHD camcorder that's native. For a bit more money, theirs the HMC40 which adds a 720 60p mode, a traditional focusing ring and the ability to hook up XLR mics natively into the camera with an optimal adapter.

You obviously have to remove pull-down with the TM700 which I find unfortunate but the good news is that with the 1080 60p mode you can slow it down to 24p for high quality 1080p slow motion sequences. You never know when you'd want to use something like that.

[ggrantly]

Though slightly larger than some of those mentioned, the HMC40 is a bit more like a real cam, produces excellent IQ in decent light, can capture XLR audio, and shoots 24p native, and it is still very light, just a bit larger. Great guerilla cam.

Grant