Clean sheet...

[Body Flight]

Hi all! I'm new to this forum, but I have been reading/researching for a little while now. I have not found any threads like my question from the searches I have done. (Sorry if I just didn't search the right way.)

I am also new to videography... a clean sheet. I have a need for a good video camera, and other components. My nephew has pointed me to the top contenders from the major manufacturers. (He works with a DVX for school projects - and pointed me to this forum to reaserch them.)

I own a skydiving simulator (indoor skydiving), and will be shooting personalized videos for various groups of customers. Each flight session can last up to an hour, and there could be up to 10 flight sessions recorded each day. (I would expect shooting about 20 to 25 minutes of footage per half hour of flight. The final videos will be edited to 5 to 10 minutes long.) Since the final product will be DVD's, I don't know what format will be best to shoot in. I will also want to shoot higher quality promotional footage of our facility for television ads. I don't want to buy this system twice.

The sad part..... The video camera will be abused - simply from the shooting environment. The camera will routinely be directly exposed to the 100(+) MPH wind speeds that are required for realistically simulating skydiving. (The customer is inside this airflow, and flies their body as if they just jumpped from an aircraft.) The flight chamber is a 12 foot octagon... I will likely need a nice quality fisheye lens also.

I do have some ideas in mind regarding some of the equipment I will need. I can NOT have anything (except for the fisheye) attached to the exterior of the camera that could be kicked off (and go through our fans).

From what I have read, the P2 work flow seems to be a lot faster than the traditional method - especially for downloading the footage onto the computer. I realize cost is a major hurdle with these cards... especially with the larger capacities.

I am thinking of the following set up...
-HVX200
-Fisheye lens
-P2 cards of capacity large enough to handle my shooting needs. (Advice on quantity and sizes??)
-Spare batteries
-Any components I am missing (probably a lot!)

I also need to purchase a computer to edit and burn the DVD's - again, a clean sheet. I have always worked on PC's, but I am not tied to them. What is the ideal computer hardware and software setup for editing? (Dangerous question!)

Am I crazy?? (Be nice!) Would a less expensive set up be better given the shooting environment - and my skill level? I have been selling still photos of people flying for about 6 months now, and want to expand to personalized videos. (We have a few small Panasonic GS-500's that are mounted and provide a static shooting point for basic inexpensive DVD's.)

I know the market is there for selling these premium videos... that has already been proven. We subcontracted this service, but the sub moved away and burned his bridges in the process.

I have so many questions, but I don't want to wear out my welcome....

Thank you all so much for your time, patience, and knowledge!

Rob

[Barry_Green]

How is this going to be shot? Are you going to be hand-holding and flying the camera, or is it going to be shooting from a fixed mount, or ?

If it's handheld, an HVX is going to be very heavy. But for your scenario I'd highly, fervently recommend you stay away from any of the CMOS-based cameras. You sound like a perfect storm for rolling-shutter "wobble" to ruin the footage.

I'd also recommend solid state; you don't need hassles from tape dropouts caused by buffeting or bouncing around, and I doubt a hard disk is going to perform well in that environment. So that would mean a CCD-based AVC-HD or P2-based camera. If it's hard-mounted an HVX would be fine. Two 8-GB cards would give you an hour's recording time in standard-def DV mode; two 16GB cards will give you over an hour in 720/24p mode.

For AVC-HD, there aren't any great cameras around yet, just small ones. But if you think you'd prefer a small handheld unit, you can't beat AVC-HD for tiny size. Just stick with CCD instead of CMOS.

[mikkowilson]

If you are making DVDs, then a 16GB P2 card will hold the hour of DV you need. Then just pop it out and either dump, or start cutting directly from the card, and make your DVD.

Sounds like a perfect use for the P2 workflow - plus the ability to shoot higer resolution, or off-speed for promo materials.

You'd probably want a couple of P2 cards, to alows you to keep shooting if you dont' have time to offload or edit between rounds.

One workflow option woudl be to then cut with Adobe Premiere CS 3.1 which would allow you to cut and burn the DVDs directly form the P2 cards with no offloading .. very fast if speed is the key.
There are other NLE options with similar performance, but I'm not that familer with them, I'm sure others will chime in...

Would you be archiving the footage too? Or tossing it once the DVD is made?

- Mikko

[Body Flight]

WOW! Thanks for the fast responses! The camera will be hand held. The Sub was shooting Mini DV tape on a Sony - but I don't know the model. It could have been a VX2000. I am thinking that the weight of the camera would actually help for shooting.

Yes, I would like to archive the footage, but I am thinking this will suck up a ton of hard drive space. Ideas? Maybe I'll just burn a second copy of the customer's DVD and keep that as the archive.

[mikkowilson]

Burning a 2nd DVD would definatly be the cheapest and simplest method - and secure enough too if it's not critical - DVD's get screated, etc.. (If the archive is critical, then you should have a backup anyway)

I presume a heavy camera would be less likly to be blown about by the wind? (which would still go to support it's weight)

- Mikko

[Body Flight]

While a heavier camera is harder to hold, the weight will help minimize how much it moves around... I think. (I have not tried either yet.) Would any of these cameras have problems with dust getting inside the camera? What about the computer and software? Any idaes?

Would you (collectively) recommend 720/24p mode for shooting and burning to DVD?

[mikkowilson]

DVD is SD only, so either DV or DVCPRO-50 would be your best options.


The HVX is a very resilliant camera because it's solid state.

- Mikko

[mjjason]

2 fixed cameras recording via firwire can be a good solution. The fixed camera can be housed in a protective lucite or glass casing to guard against the winds and dust. 1 cam can be fixed down low pointing up while the other gets a bird's eye view.

The cams can be connected to two computers capturing the footage via firwire onto network drives. Then you will have instant access to the footage to edit and give to the people.

The single HVX plus P2 cards would be the easiest way but the above method is another option. Not sure what is more expensive though.

[Body Flight]

MJ - thanks for the idea! Actually, you almost exactly described the 'basic' video system I have - with lower end cameras though. I actually have 3 Pana cameras (GS-500's - small, 3ccd cameras) that are mounted and shooting through the glass. I send the video through firewire distribution hubs to individual DVD recorders. Clean and simple.

The videos I want to start (again) will be very interactive, and action oriented. (Hand held actually helps with this 'feel'.) This camera needs to be in the airflow, and moving around with the flyer.

Would it help if I posted a link to a youtube video of my tunnel? All of the videos on there are more pormotional videos showing staff flights... our sub was more interested in shooting / editing these than customer videos!

[mikkowilson]

yeah, post what you've got. More information always makes it easier to make sugestions.

- Mikko

[Body Flight]

Here are a couple links...

These are both the 'fun' staff flight videos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDgngfd6fhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0fbW3-Un0

This was a customer video... the customer added some titling at the beginning. This was shot at the end of the sub's tenure here... quality really dropped off, but it does show thetype of shooting that will be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQbyj1QG3t0

[Jeff Anderson]

Cool videos - I've been in the tunnel at Perris Valley a few times and jump in Oklahoma (actually just getting back into it after a short layoff). Glad to see some skydiving blood here. I could probably find a reason to make it to new hampshire if you want to try one out. Wouldnt be able to make it out there til december probably though. Kinda been having some tunnel cravings lately with summer ending.

the only other accessory I can think of would be a card reader if you are going to use a desktop to edit with. Using it everyday for customer videos I'd also look into some sort of protection for it. I wonder if the good people at Bonehead or any of the other helmet mfr's couldn't help with a bump box for it that help keep the dust out as well. Maybe one that let the handle stick out the top but kept the main body and lens controls out of the direct airstream.

[Body Flight]

Thanks Jeff! There is a TON of talent in Perris! That tunnel is a carbon copy of Orlando. The recirculating SV's are the wave of the future! (Unbelieveable airspeed, clean, smooth air, temp control, etc.)

I didn't even think of BH for a composite box - great idea! That would be a good 'insurance' policy on this camera. I will look for other manufacturers also.

Would you go PC or MAC? Does it really mater?

I'm hoping to get moving on the camera pretty soon. If you do come out this way, I'd love to show you the 'benefits' of the latest generation SV - VWT in person!

[Jon Starr]

Perhaps you should find a way to test if the heavier camera will be easier to handle in there before buying anything. Perhaps by adding some weights (that are well attached) to a light camera, or by even renting one of these cameras (unless you think you might damage one of them?).

Or if you end up buying a lighter camera, if it's easier with a heavier camera, look into a way of attaching some weights to it. Perhaps via the tripod hole.

I'm no expert in this, but thought I'd throw those ideas out there.

[Body Flight]

I have not been too concerned about the size/weight of the camera, but I probably should think more about it. The sub that left was shooting a Sony VX2000 (I think) which is a lot closer in size/weight to the HVX than the GS-500's I have.

I'm actually more concerned with the capabilities and specifications of the camera... 3CCD, P2 output, capable of high end footage (when in the right hands), etc.

In my lobby, I have three 42"LCD's mounted next to each other that display promotional footage all day. During the video, the DVD's were rendered to have the center third (horizontally) of the video displayed on all three screens. The footage on these screens right now was shot on the Sony, and looks like doo-doo. (Possible editing problems or source footage issues - I don't know.) I want this new camera to shoot footage I can be proud of.

[mikkowilson]

mmm.. for multi-display video like that, you will definatly want to be shooting HD for that source material, so that when you cut it up, each individual signal is still full SD.

- Mikko

[Jeff Anderson]

Hey Rob thanks for the invite - I'll see what my schedule can do. This recirculating stuff sounds awesome. Sounds like I need to catch up on my tunnel technology reading.

Also what happens if one drops a 5lb brick in a wind tunnel? Does it go flailing around like a missile or will it drop to the floor? If you go the d-box route maybe they could build some tether system as well to keep it attached to the videographer. If you're sure it will drop without incident then that shouldnt be too much of an issue as far as jumper safety is concerned. As far as delivering a sweet looking picture the HVX will definitely deliver. If I remember right (help me out guys) the vx2100 performs well in low light - the HVX doesnt so much. It looks like you have a decent amount of light from the outside coming in but it might get a bit dark in there on cloudy days and at night. Any possibility of installing some flourescent banks that could blast light into the tunnel? I imagine you could angle them so they wouldnt blind the jumpers but it would pour in some good light for video use. Its hard to say how much light you really need without actually being there though. I'm just guessing from the videos you posted and pics on your site.

I'm a little confused about the center 1/3 cut thing and your lcd's though? Is it possible that your previous editor letterboxed some 16:9 footage for a 4:3 tv and you are stretching it out on a 16:9 display (or 3 or them in this case). But one video doesnt span across three monitors at once right? Just three monitors playing 3 seperate videos but at the same time?

Editing wise I would go with what you know - if you know pc's then go with that. Both Mac and PC work equally well as far as I'm concerned. If someone else will be doing the editing go with whatever editing suite they know.

did you say temp control!!?! 12000 feet was cold today :(

[Body Flight]

Hey Jeff - We have a 45 foot ceiling, but we're always flying!! If it's cold in the tunnel, we close the doors! It's a blast flying during a snow storm, too!!:grin:

Regarding the 5lb brick... great question! I really don't want to risk damaging the windows in a test. The subcontractor had a fisheye get kicked off the bayonet mount... it hovered like a 5" glass UFO.

There is a very wide range of light in the flight chamber... ranging from very poor (night / cloudy days) to direct sunlight just before sunset. I am limited on where I can mount extra lighting, but I do have a few tricks up my sleve still. I am going to try lighting from below. I know it will help (anything will) but don't think it will be the final answer.

I took a couple quick snap shots of the display LCD's, but I'm hesitant to post them because the file size is kinda large on each. How large a picture can be posted without being a problem?

The concept of the monitors is basically 3 independant videos running at the same time right next to each other. At a few points during the display, all 3 monitors are sharing a video. (So, the one video is displayed as one video but on three displays - the top and bottom are cut off to prevent stretching the people.) Ever see the wall of monitors in a Best Buy? I put together a single row of monitors that can function as one very narrow monitor, or 3 independant monitors. I believe the original footage was 4:3 and was stretched to fit across 3 monitors, and everything that fell outside the monitors was cropped. It is a rough feature, but I still like the concept. I am sure there is a better approach too! Suggestions?

[mikkowilson]

Shrink the photo(s) using an image editing program.

- Mikko

[Body Flight]

Sorry for the delay... work got in the way today. Actually my local cable network came to shoot footage for a show they are doing on us. (Pretty cool seeing the pros work!)

Here are the 2 downsized pics of the display in my lobby. One picture shows one image spread across the three displays (One Image.jpg) and the other shows 3 independant images. For most of the time the video is running, there is only one video actually running, and the other screens are filled with information that is needed / FAQ's / weight restrictions, etc.
4094

4095

[Body Flight]

I'm a little confused about the center 1/3 cut thing and your lcd's though? Is it possible that your previous editor letterboxed some 16:9 footage for a 4:3 tv and you are stretching it out on a 16:9 display (or 3 or them in this case). But one video doesnt span across three monitors at once right? Just three monitors playing 3 seperate videos but at the same time?

I am not exactly sure how he did it, but I think the basic idea is something like this... He blew up the image to fit on all three screens (including the edges of the monitors). Because my monitors are about 10 o 11 feet long (combined) and not proportionately tall, he cropped the horizontal portion of the image that would not fall onto the monitors. (I called this the 'center third' of the image earlier.) He then rendered the video three different times - once for the portion of the video that would fall onto each monitor.

Dring the final editing of the DVD's, he matched the timelines on all 3 so they would play the same frames at the same time thus giving the appearance of a 10 foot wide monitor playing a single video. (Well, the center portion of a vdieo... it's enough to see it is all one picture spread across 3 monitors.)

All is good until here. The 3 dvd's do play pretty close to the same... until they skip - or freeze on a frame.

This monitor is another reason I am thinking of the HVX, and everything else I need that goes with it. If anyone has ideas on how to do this display better, I'm all ears!